Why are summoners so neglected?

One of the strongest Classes in the game... and you're bitching about it?

Seriously?

Man... thats how you lose credibility very quickly...

Walk away from this and don't look back..

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Originally Posted by Iromi

It's funny, "pet job" won the 1.x player poll for most wanted job and this game still doesn't have it.

They should rename summoner to something else until they can make it proper. I don't mind the job, but it does not , by any means, fulfill the pet job role..

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Or, instead of renaming it people can accept that this is FFXIV's version of SMN. Summoners have been many things throughout the FF series. Rydia was a BLM, Yuna/Garnet/Eiko were WHMs, in XI it was a pet focused job, in XIV it's dot mage. Instead of constantly asking for a complete rework of the job (a decision which may upset more people than it pleases), or a rename, why not ask for an actual pet focused job like beastmaster or puppetmaster?

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Because it is attached to ACN and SCH! Well part of the reason, but more indirectly because that issue runs into this:


They basically made SMN a real SMN in FFXI, here is just being lazy and can't come up with ways to get around the balancing issue from being attached to ACN and SCH.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Or, instead of renaming it people can accept that this is FFXIV's version of SMN. Summoners have been many things throughout the FF series. Rydia was a BLM, Yuna/Garnet/Eiko were WHMs, in XI it was a pet focused job, in XIV it's dot mage. Instead of constantly asking for a complete rework of the job (a decision which may upset more people than it pleases), or a rename, why not ask for an actual pet focused job like beastmaster or puppetmaster?

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gf posting:

it wasn't till abyssea that smn actually summoned. Before you was told to /whm and heal. and even still avatar summons had too many cons and not enough pros

Me and my b/f like smn as is, everyone would just pick "the best" summon and make people use that 1. I recall playing smn with my b/f and a person calling me out for using ifrit when my g/f already used garuda. :/

pup, bst smn in ff11 was pet focused jobs and was called weak for it. pup had no abilities outside making the pet do things. bst had animals and smn had avatars.

each class was considered weak, useless, and unwanted till abyssea. smn wAs told to heal, and pup was lolpup. bst were never invited because of exp down things, and even after unless you had the crab pot pet was weak.

i think smn and sch was handled well in ff14. ya it isn't what people want, but at least it isn't "weak". please take off the rose tinted glasses and remember HOW ff11 jobs were played, not what the job entailed.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

/snip

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Pretty sure the top DPS atm are MCHs and Mnks? I can't remember specifically, but it's out there. So I'm not sure where this comment is coming from >.>

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

gf posting:
it wasn't till abyssea that smn actually summoned. Before you was told to /whm and heal. and even still avatar summons had too many cons and not enough pros

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Actually, SMN in endgame was always useful for Astral Flow, or Something like a one hit Garuda, Fenrir, or Diabolos. They only really healed in leveling/merit parties. Summoner in FFXI was always about that 2hr Astral Flow especially when Alexander and his "Perfect Defense" came out.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

pup, bst smn in ff11 was pet focused jobs and was called weak for it. pup had no abilities outside making the pet do things. bst had animals and smn had avatars.

each class was considered weak, useless, and unwanted till abyssea. smn wAs told to heal, and pup was lolpup. bst were never invited because of exp down things, and even after unless you had the crab pot pet was weak.

i think smn and sch was handled well in ff14. ya it isn't what people want, but at least it isn't "weak". please take off the rose tinted glasses and remember HOW ff11 jobs were played, not what the job entailed.

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Nice edits there, Um... did we play the same FFXI game? Summoner, Beastmaster, and Puppetmaster could ALL solo things most other jobs could not at the time. Just look up any good video about PUP soloing Proto-Ultimas, or SMN's practically soloing some of the Sky gods. Sure kiting was more of a thing there, but even BST was the supreme solo job minus RDM. Sure /BLU /DNC really saw things open up for other jobs as time went on, but they were all far from weak. So I'm not sure what rose tinted glasses you speak of...

Now of course BALANCE was a whole different issue, and yes. Balancing here is FAR better then it was in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

gf posting:
it wasn't till abyssea that smn actually summoned. Before you was told to /whm and heal. and even still avatar summons had too many cons and not enough pros

Me and my b/f like smn as is, everyone would just pick "the best" summon and make people use that 1. I recall playing smn with my b/f and a person calling me out for using ifrit when my g/f already used garuda. :/

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FFXI SMN under Tanaka was trash because he had no idea how to balance it and was too scared to even try, sound like any other director around here? But the changes made to SMN under Matsui has put SMN on the map and made it the SMN that other MMO's should want to be. Yes it has its flaws and balance issues still as every job in an MMO inevitably has, but it is a true summoner now and a competitive job.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

What are you talking about? DWT and deathflare are closer to the classic FF summoner than anything else, if you really want a "real" summoner you'd ask for more skills like deathflare, skills that borrow the power of primals, because that's exactly what most FF summoners did, invoke the entity for one single attack. What we have now with summons being out 24/7 is pretty far from a summoner.

Lala Yukihime had the right of it, we need more ogcd attacks that are based off primal abilities.

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To wield the power of primals yourself, you move farther than "summoner" and closer to this guy:

http://i.imgur.com/Wfb6D0U.jpg

Speaking of the guy above, it seems that Blizzard moved away from making him transform into demons and back into commanding demons.

Just to add, summoners have moved away from what you described since Final Fantasy X. X, XI, XII and XIII all have summons as companions rather than one-time nukes/support.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Pretty sure the top DPS atm are MCHs and Mnks? I can't remember specifically, but it's out there. So I'm not sure where this comment is coming from >.>



Actually, SMN in endgame was always useful for Astral Flow, or Something like a one hit Garuda, Fenrir, or Diabolos. They only really healed in leveling/merit parties. Summoner in FFXI was always about that 2hr Astral Flow especially when Alexander and his "Perfect Defense" came out.

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ya... still was told to heal though in most things.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Pretty sure the top DPS atm are MCHs and Mnks? I can't remember specifically, but it's out there. So I'm not sure where this comment is coming from >.>

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What are you talking about...

SMN is the top for AoE and multiple opponents...

But either way the top slots are either SMN or MCH or even BRD... so stop this nonsense.

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Actually, SMN in endgame was always useful for Astral Flow, or Something like a one hit Garuda, Fenrir, or Diabolos. They only really healed in leveling/merit parties. Summoner in FFXI was always about that 2hr Astral Flow especially when Alexander and his "Perfect Defense" came out.

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I played that POS in FFXI... and no it wasn't it was little more than a half assed white mage.

It stunk on Ice... I hear that after they graded the content down to low challenge level it FINALLY was playable...and you want that?

Seriously?

Man I'll take the THIS version of the SMN... over that one.... any day of the week... at the very least its viable and powerful... I cannot say that about the FFXI Summoner who was little more than a gimped WHM.

That one blew chunks.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

FFXI SMN under Tanaka was trash because he had no idea how to balance it and was too scared to even try, sound like any other director around here? But the changes made to SMN under Matsui has put SMN on the map and made it the SMN that other MMO's should want to be.

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when was this I quit before SOA was out? im talking 90% of ff11 from 2004 when i got into it, till 2012 when ff14 was released. (i hated abyssea)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Just remove all the skills from smn, give it summon, and rouse, and spur. enkindle
and 18 summons that only have an auto attack and the enkindle ability.

There, you have summoner.

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Sarcasm^

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Sarcasm aside, that would be a step in the right direction, a clean slate if you will.

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Phew!* It's a good thing Yoshida doesn't listen to you then or else we'd have AFKmner!

In fact, Yoshida should be getting a pat on the back for his splendid job on SMN. Based off of the numbers and statistics.

http://i.imgur.com/r17zIGZ.jpg

See that 20%? That's SMN.

http://i.imgur.com/fis57aG.jpg

See that 55%? That's the amount of DPS-users in the game. Seems to me Yoshi made the right choice when he decided to make SMN a class you can play instead of watch. Because SMN is the most popular class in the game.

FFXIV has its own SMN. If Yoshi said "We're making it like <game>'s SMN" then yeah he would've messed up. But he didn't say that. So the SMN is made the right way.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

To wield the power of primals yourself, you move farther than "summoner" and closer to this guy:

http://i.imgur.com/Wfb6D0U.jpg

Speaking of the guy above, it seems that Blizzard moved away from making him transform into demons and back into commanding demons.

Just to add, summoners have moved away from what you described since Final Fantasy X. X, XI, XII and XIII all have summons as companions rather than one-time nukes/support.

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WoW still looks like n64 game 0_0;; dam

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

One of the strongest Classes in the game... and you're bitching about it?

Seriously?

Man... thats how you lose credibility very quickly...

Walk away from this and don't look back..

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I don't care about having any credibility with someone who can't see the difference between gameplay preferences and DPS numbers.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

WoW still looks like n64 game 0_0;; dam

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I can't say for sure since I didn't play back then yet, but judging by the mounts and pets, it seems to be a screenshot from Wrath. Warlocks don't even have Metamorphosis anymore :P

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

gf posting:

pup, bst smn in ff11 was pet focused jobs and was called weak for it. pup had no abilities outside making the pet do things. bst had animals and smn had avatars.

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Trust me, I was a SMN and DNC main in FFXI. Wanna know what I came to content on? WHM. (Granted that may have been because I'm OCD about removing status debuffs.)

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

/nonsense

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Last time responding to you then lol.
Learn to read first please, because everything you said in your post has nothing to do with what I was saying, and yes FFlogs exist, please look it up. SMN is up there, but it's still not the top.

Also just looked up your Lodestone, you don't even have a level 60. And don't give me this "I'm posting on an alt." To me that just makes you the less credible one. No reason to hide behind an alt.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Trust me, I was a SMN and DNC main in FFXI. Wanna know what I came to content on? WHM. (Granted that may have been because I'm OCD about removing status debuffs.)

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and i was a smn main from 2005-2011 after i got tired of being a cure battery. :) still don't get the point of the post :)

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Originally Posted by Ririta

I don't care about having any credibility with someone who can't see the difference between gameplay preferences and DPS numbers.



I can't say for sure since I didn't play back then yet, but judging by the mounts and pets, it seems to be a screenshot from Wrath. Warlocks don't even have Metamorphosis anymore :P

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oh ok..........

i never like that skill anyway was weird.........

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

gf posting:

it wasn't till abyssea that smn actually summoned. Before you was told to /whm and heal. and even still avatar summons had too many cons and not enough pros

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This is only partially true, you're not telling the whole story. SMN/WHM was popular as an exp party role, but SMN damage was very popular at HNMs for it's extremely safe low-TP build damage.

My LS of the day, along with pretty much every HNMLS on the server, would bring SMNs for Garuda's Predator Claws on Jormungand and Tiamat, among many others.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Last time responding to you then lol.
Learn to read first please, because everything you said in your post has nothing to do with what I was saying, and yes FFlogs exist, please look it up. SMN is up there, but it's still not the top.

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Yeah that IS what I'm talking about and yes FFLOGS showed pretty clearly that in the top 10 slots the upper ones are Summoners, and I can see it very clearly myself on my own character's play as well...

Stop this nonsense, you're losing credibility

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

when was this I quit before SOA was out? im talking 90% of ff11 from 2004 when i got into it, till 2012 when ff14 was released. (i hated abyssea)

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He became director right before the release of SoA which was the last expansion under Tanaka. Matsui was originally part of the battle system team for FFXI, he's also the one who worked on FFXIV to make it the battle system people actually liked in 1.23. Then went back to be director of FFXI when Tanaka left.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

and i was a smn main from 2005-2011 after i got tired of being a cure battery. :) still don't get the point of the post :)

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I was saying I agree with you. SMNs were treated like a poor man's WHM in FFXI.

I don't think "neglected" is the right word, but it's certainly not designed around summoning. The job plays totally fine, it does amazing damage, it just never feels much like a Summoner.

Many of the ideas here (and other threads like it) would be welcome changes. More egis, more egi glamours, more emphasis on the egis, animations for the summoner abilities that include summoning (like Ultima does, or like Yuna in Dissidia), temporary transformation/replacement with a summon - any of these things would go a long way in making the job feel more like a Summoner and not a poison mage with one DoT that floats and glows off to the side.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

To wield the power of primals yourself, you move farther than "summoner" and closer to this guy:

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I can't agree, you should give older FF titles a try to see how summoners played back then. And I never said the player should transform into the primal.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Between 10 job exclusive spells (5 from ARR and 5 from HW), they could've added more summons, but at this point I'll accept even being separated from scholar if it meansI'll finally get my Leviathan.

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As said like the quote I quoted, I am positive it has something to do with it. They feel restricted and it is like some wall that is sitting there to give it a good work around to let us be true summoners. They seem to lack creativity to work around the sharing balance issues or simply really considering spiliting them. regardless I still find it funny how FFXI stayed more true the nature and not a DoT mage.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Unless something changed drastically since I quit halfway through WotG, I don't think XI's SMN would be very well received here. XI's SMN was treated as a glorified healer that only brought out Avatars just long enough to cast a Pact before dismissing them again. Though now that I think about it, that's how the Summoner is typically portrayed throughout most of its different iterations in other Final Fantasy games: occasionally bringing out a summon for a big, expensive spell (that often times had RNG elements if you weren't using it with specific items or abilities) and otherwise they spent the rest of their time acting as support.

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Early on that happened because they had no DPS, it is worse then a MCH DPSing only in wildfire but that be a good idea how it was. You gave mediocre burst damage every literal minute that could be mimicked by one spell from a BLM. So to give summoners a use in a party vs none at all, they could do the weak burst damage then heal as they wait for something to do.

In FFXIV, 1.0 ideas a summoner could do that only instead of having the filler be healing, it could been magic DPS from THM and its own. This was helped by the fact personal stat effected damage where for SMN in FFXI it did not for a long time till they gave -BP gear and have summoning skill effect damage. It changed a lot but there was still too much downtime making it a heal assist during downtimes.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I can't agree, you should give older FF titles a try to see how summoners played back then. And I never said the player should transform into the primal.

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The point is the difference between "commanding primals" and "wielding their power". "That guy" is literally us right now - focusing on wielding the power of demons instead of commanding demons. The transformation is a bonus.

As for older summoners... I'm well aware; I wouldn't mind either way as long as we move away from having only the three ARR primals, though I personally prefer a pet based gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Alerion

This is only partially true, you're not telling the whole story. SMN/WHM was popular as an exp party role, but SMN damage was very popular at HNMs for it's extremely safe low-TP build damage.

My LS of the day, along with pretty much every HNMLS on the server, would bring SMNs for Garuda's Predator Claws on Jormungand and Tiamat, among many others.

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never got into hnm because of all the drama. still never saw avatar used during runs i did see.

still most times i played it (14 characters) it was heal or /kick.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

never got into hnm because of all the drama. still never saw avatar used during runs i did see.

still most times i played it (14 characters) it was heal or /kick.

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I explained why, and it is no different then healers should dps here. You simply have too large downtime and SMN on HMNs was in old ffxi. After tons of buffs and such people just burned the crap out of everything with melee DPS doing SV 3 brd rotations. MNK fully buffed by 3 brds (and sometimes a cor on top of that for good measure, or 2 brds and a cor) was flippin insane with hundred fists, and even more so if you had a pocket heal with souleater, lamo.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

never got into hnm because of all the drama. still never saw avatar used during runs i did see.

still most times i played it (14 characters) it was heal or /kick.

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Well then your opinion on it is pretty incomplete. I did hardcore FFXI endgame, we're talking get up at 3 am because a king's window was opening. It's a little misleading to flat out claim summoners didn't summon when they were extremely popular for that reason in FFXI's endgame.

That said, you're right about their position in exp parties, they were basically just healers there.

May not be neglected but from playing only summoner since I started till halfway through heavensward and see the summoner - summon interaction not change at all Im finally wearing down and considering permanently dropping it for red mage. The egis are extremely stale.

With the craptons of power the summoner itself holds Id almost expect 5.0 to introduce a trait or skill that sacrifices the ability to summon for more power.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Just remove all the skills from smn, give it summon, and rouse, and spur. enkindle
and 18 summons that only have an auto attack and the enkindle ability.

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I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but let's try to make something useful out of your post.

Let's establish some rules first. 6 "main" egis that represent the elemental wheel (nothing to do with elemental affinities; this is more for thematic reasons). You get Ifrit-egi (melee pet), Garuda-egi (caster pet), Titan-egi (tank pet), Leviathan-egi (anti-caster pet), Shiva-egi (CC pet), Ramuh-egi (AoE/damage aura pet). Gain abilities that allow you to temporarily call upon egi beyond that (Ravana-egi, Bismarck-egi), and a skill that allows you to summon more than one egi (this would be a DPS cooldown). An aetherflow skill that lets you quickly switch to a new egi (on a 45s cooldown). Throw in pets dealing greater damage on targets affected by your DoTs, a couple of skills that deal with pets (an Aetherflow skill that temporarily increases damage dealt by your active egi), and you have a decent starting point.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so they function exactly the same? why does SMN get multiple animations for the same attack?

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Why not?

And give a reason not motivated by envy or jealousy.

What would be the point of new pets? The majority of them would be strictly situational or unused. You will probably be using the same 2 Egi's for raiding and dungeons unless you are willingly allowing your self to lose dps for eye candy.

WoW is also a terrible example. Warlocks barely use pets that are not forcefully spec for them. Hunter pets are so pointless as a survival or marksman that they piratically removed them and even if you are a beast master your pet will be most likely be a spirit beast because they are the best.

Meanwhile I'm just sitting here hoping that the new egi glamours changes the attack animations to their respective elements--I wouldn't want to see a Ramuh-egi shooting wind attacks or Leviathan-egi leaving a mud puddle or Shiva-egi hitting things with a flaming sword. That is, if we're actually getting Primal themed glamours and not just more carbuncles (Though I would like an amethyst carbuncle myself).

I'm really getting sick of SE turning the community outcrys around on us and saying "oh well we'll just never do this again".

The community is whining because SMN was boring and badly designed, especially in 2.0. That doesn't mean to regret ever making it, it means to improve.

With Diadem, it's not because we have this kneejerk reaction to cry at any and everything, it's incredibly boring content that is being incencitized by a weapon that completely trashes the rewards of savage raiding and anima weapons.

ok, let's give SMN those huge AoE attacks, which cost a ton of mp and make the summon disappear after it's done.
also make WAR and DRK DPS, erase SCH and AST from the game as they make WHM look bad.
Introduce SAM as tank. Give DRG invulnerability during jumps. seperate NIN and ROG (aka thief). give MNK all the utility. and have sheltron block magic attacks.

Did I forget anything?

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

gf posting:

it wasn't till abyssea that smn actually summoned. Before you was told to /whm and heal. and even still avatar summons had too many cons and not enough pros

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This is false. You could summon and attack as a BLM would and get to rest during downtime just as a BLM would. Yes, there were scenarios where you could be a healer, but if you weren't a bad SMN and actually had the summons, you could use them in a party just fine. Predator Claws has always been destructive. Also, if you had Carbuncle Mitts, you were assured to be able to DPS if all you had was Carbuncle. SMN may have had flaws, but classes in general had flaws in FFXI so that's unrelated to the idea of using a summon to attack. SMN's had to worry about perpetuation cost, MP, long delays on special abilities, and many other things that you wouldn't have to worry about in FFXIV.

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Me and my b/f like smn as is, everyone would just pick "the best" summon and make people use that 1. I recall playing smn with my b/f and a person calling me out for using ifrit when my g/f already used garuda. :/

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I mean, if you use Titan in this game in a party someone's gonna call you out on that too. SMN had many summons, and yeah some did better for a majority of the content, but that doesn't mean the other summons were outright useless. You could still use them for their buffs, and plenty of fights that required a certain element.

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pup, bst smn in ff11 was pet focused jobs and was called weak for it. pup had no abilities outside making the pet do things. bst had animals and smn had avatars.

each class was considered weak, useless, and unwanted till abyssea. smn wAs told to heal, and pup was lolpup. bst were never invited because of exp down things, and even after unless you had the crab pot pet was weak.

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They weren't weak for being pet jobs, they were weak because of FFXI's "balance". Look at Red Mage and how that got nerfed into oblivion, they were always afraid to buff anything. Look at THF as well. So let's not say that the issue was that pet jobs don't work, the real issue with FFXI was that the team balancing the game had no clue how to balance pet jobs AND plenty of other jobs. Hell, Bard was essentially useless because of Abyssea, as was Paladin.

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i think smn and sch was handled well in ff14. ya it isn't what people want, but at least it isn't "weak". please take off the rose tinted glasses and remember HOW ff11 jobs were played, not what the job entailed.

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The problem is not that SMN isn't handled well as a DPS, it's that SMN is not handled well as a 'Summoner', and it's some kind of damage over time job. I'd much rather it be called something else like "Channeler" someone mentioned in this thread.

For the record we are supposed to be getting more egi glamours. The different colored carbuncles was just the beginning. They do plan on adding other primals as glamour. The carbuncles came first because the model and animations already existed in the game. For the others they have to create them from scratch and that takes time.

For them to go through the trouble of creating an entirely new glamour system just for us (scholars don't even have it), you can't say they're neglecting summoners.

I like the current Summoner. Still feels like a Summoner to me.

Please don't change it SE. Keep going the direction you are.

The problem with SMN is the pets.

The simplest solution is to do what they with DWT. I will suggest to remove the pets and you get adsort their power and gain their abilities rather than summoning them.

So you get DWT for ifrit Garuda and titan too.

Summoner? Neglected? Bahahahahahaha.

I mean yeah, in 2.5 they had the short end of the stick, and it sucked to be one. Then they got dreadwyrm trance and akh morn and became one of the best DPS classes in the game for a long time, and they're still one of the best AoE classes, easily the most mobile ranged classes, and probably the best PotD soloing class, among other things.

Meanwhile, MCH is still rockin' one lunchbox, if you wanna talk "I want more egi glamours" at me.

ITT:
Wah! I don't agree with this reimagining of Summoner!

Well, apply to SE and see if you can get a job as a director of FFXVIII and lead the Summoner job in there.