People need to get real about Duty Finder queues.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

The issue will always be that people don't want responsibility in a group setting. That's why they gravitate away from tanks and healers. There's no fixing that.

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this is so true dragon 100 percent

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Originally Posted by Slirith

Hence the "no one ever calls them out on it" part of what you quoted.

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My point is there are ways to "help," or try to help, someone that may not be performing up to par. Just telling someone "my parser shows you're only doing 100 dps....do better" doesn't help anything.....and everybody here knows that if parsers were ever allowed "officially" that is exactly what would happen.

edit: you can call someone out and not have to say anything about using a parser

I heal. It doesn't bother me and I don't feel like anyone expects too much out of me in a dungeon as long as I don't let us wipe. I also seem to be able to get away without knowing 90% of the mechanics based on the explanations groups give me (or don't give me) and the fact that it goes fine. Tanking is a bit different and I tank frequently while leveling, but usually stop as soon as I hit level cap, simply because tanking level cap dungeons seems to be about pulling 6,000,000 mobs so we can gogogo (and I don't blame anyone for that, nobody wants to do Xelphatol the 30th time), but I don't really feel like I know the dungeons well enough or have enough of an ability to gauge both myself and the healer's ability to pull tons of mobs to do that. Not wishing to hold people up, I just don't tank.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

My point is there are ways to "help," or try to help, someone that may not be performing up to par. Just telling someone "my parser shows you're only doing 100 dps....do better" doesn't help anything.....and everybody here knows that if parsers were ever allowed "officially" that is exactly what would happen.

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Someone at 60 doing one 100 dps has more problems than an inefficient rotation. Auto attack is worth about 300 dps with no cds, buffs, or party effects, not even heavy thrust up. If a drg is doing less than that, at lvl 60, in an expert roulette, then they simply dont care to do better.

Just heavy thrust and auto attack, and nothing else, is 460.

I love tanking trials, but am not so grand on dungeons. I can hold hate fine, but as a tank i never feel like im making enough difference, cant last 10s without a healer(or a netflix healer forgetting to heal me) and generally. I havent gotten the complaints verbally but i totally feel the not fast enough, too fast, not in right stance, etc. I did actually feel powerful back in the str tank days, but lost interest after the fix. I'm not a career tank, but i did main pld first, then went back before HW for DRK. I run mostly SMN even taking the queue time penalty because its just so much less stressful to run dungeons with.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Someone at 60 doing one 100 dps has more problems than an inefficient rotation. Auto attack is worth about 300 dps with no cds, buffs, or party effects, not even heavy thrust up. If a drg is doing less than that, at lvl 60, in an expert roulette, then they simply dont care to do better.

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Be honest with me here. How many times have you actually seen that? I've never seen anyone that bad in all of my time playing this game.

I alternate dps and healing roles periodically. I like to tank but I don't tank in df because I am rather dyslexic and tend to go the wrong direction in dungeons (yes even if they are a straight line - I run the wrong way after an encounter or have issues with moving the boss the right spot (when it is backwards for me vs the party)).

It's embarrassing and most players are jerks about it even if it just takes a couple extra seconds for me to get oriented (and that is all it takes).
So I don't tank in dungeons or raids in df.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Be honest with me here. How many times have you actually seen that? I've never seen anyone that bad in all of my time playing this game.

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I've seen it on an infrequent basis. but rarely do I get melee dps in dungeons at 60 who go over 1000 dps. I've seen some drgs who's openers put them at 1200, where I can hit over 3k, and im not the best geared.

I had a drg in a sephirot farm do nothing but spam 123. that was it.

Had a bard, 2 blms and a nin in void ark under 600. I dont usually parse dungeons, but thats due to being sad when i do.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Someone at 60 doing one 100 dps has more problems than an inefficient rotation. Auto attack is worth about 300 dps with no cds, buffs, or party effects, not even heavy thrust up. If a drg is doing less than that, at lvl 60, in an expert roulette, then they simply dont care to do better.

Just heavy thrust and auto attack, and nothing else, is 460.

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If someone does this badly they are likely watching shows and not paying attention or talking in discord or fc chat at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

You're making it sound as if tanking and healing alone were full-time jobs where something goes on top.

But tanking and healing are like 4-5 button jobs on their own. That adds complexity to the jobs, naturally, but in turn, their DPS combos are a lot less complex than that of a pure DPS. I think it roughly evens out.

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They are full-time jobs. You still have to stay on top of aggro and keep an eye out on health bars. When I dps as a white mage, I still keep an eye on my team's health bars to see if I need to start healing again or reapply regen. That's one of the responsibilities of a healer. I never truly stop healing.

I do agree with you though that DPS jobs have more complex rotations. Being able to optimize your rotation to achieve as much dps as you can is a skill that requires practice and effort.

I believe what makes it particularly more difficult for tanks and healers is having to juggle maximum dps output with role responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

A lot of people seem to be forgetting... DRK did drastically shorten leveling queues for a good while when it came out. I don't expect it to change much endgame but well, have fun with those really, really long leveling queues for while after the expac release... really hope you like FATEs.

(And, yes, there are plenty that only play DRK because they don't like the other tank jobs. So it does bring in new people long term...)

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except it didn't at the same time. My chances of actually clearing a dungeon vastly dropped because of the complexity of DRK (and the legions of terrible part time tank players). So yes while the queues were faster, I probably spent more time overall because of the repeated wipes due to people having not yet figured out how to DRK (or tanking for that matter). Hell, it was during that period of time where I saw the first vote abandon at the last boss of Fractal that I have never seen again since lol.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

I believe what makes it particularly more difficult for tanks and healers is having to juggle maximum dps output with role responsibilities.

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It's not that they necessarily have to for the vast majority of fights, but between the level of convenience added by the damage increase in group content and certain content designed to require that extra damage provided from tanks and healers (mainly looking at Gordias) that the collective mentality within the culture of the community pressures healers and tanks to push their maximum possible damage output in addition to serving their primary group function to the fullest possible extent.

What's more important is a means of remedying this circumstance, and this can be done on two levels. The first is the community level, which requires a general understanding across the playerbase that essential roles (a.k.a. tanks and healers) are not just "dps that do other things"; a mindset which can be further aided on the development level in creating content that focuses less on dps checks and more on mechanical competency.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

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I think you hit the nail on the head. I agree with you 100%.

The convenience of high dps, along with dps checks, has created this mentality. I think if more fights that focused on mechanics rather than dps checks, we could get over this mindset that healers and tanks are just dps that do other things.

I stopped tanking when tanking became more about dealing DPS then holding aggro. If I am going to focus on DPS then Im not going to tank. Same with healing.. Either I heal or I DPS not both.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

I think you hit the nail on the head. I agree with you 100%.

The convenience of high dps, along with dps checks, has created this mentality. I think if more fights that focused on mechanics rather than dps checks, we could get over this mindset that healers and tanks are just dps that do other things.

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The mentality comes from the fact that there's no good reason not to optimize everything in this game. You should do everything you do to the best of your ability. And since everyone does damage...

Follow me for a sec, let's look at Royal Authority. You sacrifice the enmity from RoH for a lot more damage. Why would a tank ever want this? Because enmity doesn't help past the necessary amount. If I have a 50,000 enmity lead because all I use is RoH, I could stop attacking for a LONG while and not lose hate. Using RoH at this point is wasteful. It's suboptimal. RA is a better use of cooldowns, because it helps the group more.

It's the same with healing and DPS. Wasting time and MP from overhealing is suboptimal. Not using a GCD is suboptimal. So, it's clear what you should do.

People need to get real? How's this, adding 2 DDs will make tank and healer Q times awesome. Although it remains to be seen how many career tank and healer players continue to use duty finder. Then we also have the problems of prima-donnas in tank or healer gear, and also pretend ones only interested in quick Qs... I wish there was a better reputation system so that the prima-donna tanks and healers could be weeded out...

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

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I agree with you. I know that, even though dpsing is not my main job, I would still dps because I know it would help my teammates out tremendously.

The thing is that it gets to the point where people are being discouraged to play tanks or healers because they aren't pushing out enough dps. When people start pulling for tanks because they want to get done with the dungeon faster, or they pressure tanks to drop tank stance, that's what discourages people from wanting to play these roles. And I think this is why most people shy away from playing tank/healer.

We should encourage people to play optimally, but this has also caused tanking and healing to become more stressful than ever. The reason why maximum dps output from tanks and healers is optimal is because of the current nature of content.

What Kazrah mentioned was a possible solution to make playing tank/healer less stressful, and in turn encourage more people to play tank/healer.

Not sure what you are queueing for there, but sometimes it's just flat out faster to level a Tank yourself and do whatever duty it is on Tank. There is a multi-armory system in place afterall. You may not want to queue as a Tank or play content as a Tank through DF but unfortunately due to the sheer number of DPS players in this game (and most MMOs as DPS are generally the favoured role).

I main a Tank, but enjoy switching jobs often, and every 2nd patch I end up maining a DPS, however I always have a Tank in cases where I need to get something done and queues are just too long.

You may only enjoy playing a DPS class, but the realism of it is so does the rest of the community - and there are less tank players in this game than DPS. The queue times in your OP are few and far between. Most "worst case" queues are 20-30 mins for lvl 50+ content.

As for levelling dungeons / end game dungeons, I think this game could absolutely use an adjustment in default party setup to something more like 1 tank / 1 healer / 3 or 4 dps. This would presumably lighten the queue times for dungeons at least - however there isn't much you can do about 8-man content aside from queueing as a Tank.

I don't agree. Will be SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - RDM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM - and a DRK

Adding new tank classes help in the short term. Aesthetics of a new class can appeal even those who like their comfort zone. The problem is what happens after the novelty factor wears off. I expect SAM to actually get the adventurer in need bonus to change for another role for a while.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

What Kazrah mentioned was a possible solution to make playing tank/healer less stressful, and in turn encourage more people to play tank/healer.

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I think his solution makes it boring. I don't want to be STUCK to healing along with my healer partner stuck to healing cuz the damage coming out is ridiculous. I mean your basically asking MIDAS savage level mechanical pushing to force dps failure so you have more cure time. Some form of constant high damage intake. And tanks having to swap for the mere reason they are going to be out of cooldowns for 20+ seconds.

Do you realize to push damage so hard your constantly healing creates a high punishing situation right? And anything less than that, healer has time to DPS.

Not so sure that's the best option

Continued on phone:
I think a better solution you're looking for is to just make heals heal less. So you have to heal more often, and monsters do more damage but defensive cool downs reduce more damage.

Cuz as it stands now you can get a tank full health pretty damn fast

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

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I concede. You make excellent points. And deep down, I know I wouldn't want to spam cure spells all the time either. I enjoy dpsing as healer.

The question is how can we make tank and healer jobs more accessible/approachable to players so that we can increase the amount of tanks and healers and alleviate dps queue times.

While we could reduce the amount that healing spells heal, I don't think that's something everyone would want. I wouldn't. There are no easy answers to this.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Someone at 60 doing one 100 dps has more problems than an inefficient rotation. Auto attack is worth about 300 dps with no cds, buffs, or party effects, not even heavy thrust up. If a drg is doing less than that, at lvl 60, in an expert roulette, then they simply dont care to do better.

Just heavy thrust and auto attack, and nothing else, is 460.

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Do I seriously need to say "this is just an exaggerated example?"

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Originally Posted by Hunky

The question is how can we make tank and healer jobs more accessible/approachable to players so that we can increase the amount of tanks and healers and alleviate dps queue times.

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There's not a good solution, and it's because of failure state.

If a Tank fails, it's a BAD deal. The boss runs everywhere, the healer has to Rez them and then they reestablish enmity, the whole party gets cleaved... A tank failing leads to horrible things.

If a Healer fails, it's a BAD deal. The tank is going down, there's no AoE healing for the raidwide damage, etc. You get my point.

If a DPS fails, you make fun of them, Rez and move on. DPS is the role for people who are going to fail.

Tank and Healer simply have too much responsibility, and you can't remove it without turning the whole game into low-level Palace of the Dead.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

What're they gonna do about it? Kick the supposedly rare healer/tank? If anything, thats the time to level a tank or healer BECAUSE people can't get pissed at you because they don't wanna get kicked into a long queue.

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Agrees. I have no idea why people care so much what a few randos have to yelp about in df queue. You will never ever meet these people and chances are they aren't even on your server. What are they going to do? Kick me? Oh no, let me just reque and enjoy my red carpet instant heal while the three of them sit at the last boss until Kingdom Come.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

Agrees. I have no idea why people care so much what a few randos have to yelp about in df queue. You will never ever meet these people and chances are they aren't even on your server. What are they going to do? Kick me? Oh no, let me just reque and enjoy my red carpet instant heal while the three of them sit at the last boss until Kingdom Come.

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That attitude leads to some REALLY bad tanks and healers getting carried. :P

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Be honest with me here. How many times have you actually seen that? I've never seen anyone that bad in all of my time playing this game.

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I see it 3-4 times a week, whenever I run Dun Scaith via DF. There's always at least one person trying to afk through the battles. It's only blatantly obvious when a tank or healer tries it.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

I don't agree. Will be SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - RDM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM -SAM - SAM - SAM - and a DRK

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i was gonna say that you forgot RDM, but i see you snuck one in there lol. i have zero interest in even trying SAM, at least at the moment anyway. RDM is definitely on my hype radar though!

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Tank and Healer simply have too much responsibility, and you can't remove it without turning the whole game into low-level Palace of the Dead.

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Actually, it's fairly easy if you wanted. You only need to do one thing:
- Remove all un-avoidable damage and replace it with mechanics, i.e. avoidable damage.

Mechanics don't care who's got aggro or not, they usually don't even aim at the MT anyway and they make up the majority of gameplay in an encounter - high end raids in particular. A11S for example is an encounter that with some modifications can easily be ported into a non-trinity game even, since there's no need to dish out loldamage even if you did mechanics correctly. The issue is just: This would make tanks obsolete and healers a crutch for bad players. Tanks and Healers rely on this non-gameplay of arbitrarily taking damage for their viability. And from that stems their responsibility as well - the damage isn't avoidable, so the DPS can git as gut as they want, no dice if tanks and healers aren't up to snuff.

That's Trinity design for you.

They just need to remove Instances entirely (like how FFXI made you form a group and met up at the destination) or do like DC Universe does, and gives player the option to join instances with an open group comp, like FFXIV's Palace of the Dead.

As for the comment about DRK when it was new, the thing was that PLDs became DRK, while less amount of DPS players became DRK, so the number stayed almost the same.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

The issue will always be that people don't want responsibility in a group setting. That's why they gravitate away from tanks and healers. There's no fixing that.

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People I know dropped their tank/heal to be DPS because as a tank or heal, they were being required to do dps. That said, they felt that if they need to do dps, the just became the DPS. Problem solved on one side.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

I don't want to tank because I pull slowly. Not snail slow, but I don't like pulling fast or pulling too many. It's a self-confidence issue. And in the last game I tanked in people did NOT appreciate that at all. They wanted FASTFASTFASTFAST. Even when I said at the beginning of a dungeon I didn't do that, people still got pissed about it. They would pull themselves or just flat out leave. So I stopped tanking cause I'm not putting up with the stress and bull. *shrugs* But that's just me.

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Here's my take on that:

It's on them if they waited a long time for the queue to pop, leave, and then get a lock-out penalty. People should NEVER be forced to do things they are not comfortable doing. This cause people to change jobs or roles.

They could alleviate some dps ques by changing dungeon designs. They could have a potd party makeup style dungeon by making the whole dungeon out to be similar to a /beckon levequest. Guide a NPC Party through a dungeon. All the mobs focus on the npc. The npc can heal himself a little but you still need to kill mobs fast. Maybe add some environmental incentives to hurry up... collaping tunnels, lava flows, etc.
A group of 3 dps or 4 can queue up for it and get paired up with any type of job.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

Using a parser isn't reportable. Using a parser to make yourself feel 1337 and telling everyone "Look at my numbers noobs! Git Gud! You all suck!" IS reportable.

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... Erm, well... your example isn't reportable either.

It's only when you use a parser and harass someone in your party not doing their best.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I don't think it's a complete lost cause. Sure it's not something that SE can fix. That's up to the community to try to fix, and to start, we need to look at WHY people don't want responsibility in a group setting.

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Part of the reason is the toxicity that occurs when other people call you out on not doing your tank job the way they want you to do it, for example. or when people expect a healer to dps when they're expending *all* their mana on healing and keeping the team alive.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Adding new tank classes help in the short term. Aesthetics of a new class can appeal even those who like their comfort zone. The problem is what happens after the novelty factor wears off. I expect SAM to actually get the adventurer in need bonus to change for another role for a while.

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That's... not how Adventurer in Need works.

For those 3.0 24men contents, queueing as tanks takes the longest time.

And try queuing A5s for light farm then you will know there are too many Tanks and Healers.
Obviously everyone has tank and heal, they just don't want to tank for some reasons like can't trust pug healers and don't want to heal for some reasons like can't trust pug tanks.

So I am glad they add more DPS as it will help light farming 4.0 a lot ^^;

I don't queue into dungeons without a premade unless it's straight after reset and I really need tomes. Plenty of other ways to cap tomes which is all dungeons are good for now that PotD can be spammed for levelling.

My biggest reason is regularly encountering DPS players that do the bare minimum or even less expected of their class, examples being not performing their full rotation, not using aoe on groups of mobs, failing basic mechanics repeatedly, inflating their ilvl with accessories not suited to their class and so on. Now it's sad when they are genuinely bad at the game but what actually bothered me is how many players were purposefully being a liability to the group. Point out that a DRG is just using true thrust over and over and you get snarky replies. You think you could vote-kick them but the rest of the party actually considers holding DPS to a higher standard 'try-hard' and refuses to comply. I honestly had a MNK think they could get away with merely auto-attacking the whole dungeon but fortunately I queued with one other friend that day and could kick them.
Can't call DPS like that out on this as parsing is the only hard proof atm to show when a DPS isn't pulling their weight. I feel like a lot of players aren't even aware when it's happening because they can't easily notice it unlike how obvious it will be when a Tank or Healer refuses to perform the basic expectations of their roles.

I recognise that dungeons are casual content and not all players will be particularly good or even decent, but sorry. The bad apples I've met in my time with this game that purposefully queue, in particular as DPS, and try to get away with playing badly have made this healer shun duty finder in general.
Naturally I'm going to try to get through 4.0 levelling dungeons as quickly as possible in Early Access and hopefully the players I'm matched up with during that time will be interested in putting effort into their play as well but once I'm at 70, again it's going to be difficult to coax me into DF.

TL;DR
Players that want to get carried gravitate to DPS cause they can get away with it without it being obvious
Tired of it so I don't want to heal in DF anymore

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Here's my take on that:

It's on them if they waited a long time for the queue to pop, leave, and then get a lock-out penalty. People should NEVER be forced to do things they are not comfortable doing. This cause people to change jobs or roles.

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I'll add in two cents of my own:

It also further breeds the hostility in random parties. When in a party "your" time ends, it's over with, done, finished. Now your on the "parties" time. If a tank or anyone feels uncomfortable with large pulls. Fine, great, no problem. We should be able to work with that with no issues at all. What creates the problem is players that still go off and try to do their own thing. Easy dungeons or not, they still require teamwork. This is especially true in trinity based games which by design need top teamwork to win whatever it is.This may work to some extent in action/skill based MMO's where players have a more diverse toolkit to do their own things on trash pulls. In a trinity game though, not so much.

That said I'd happily come and heal for a tank like them. They like the role and spending a few extra minutes in a dungeon isn't an eternity and no big deal.