A reason Final Coil is a better raid tier than Creator Savage is T9 requirement

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

I don't recall people skipping phases with A5S-A8S gear in A9S-A12S but I might be wrong as I took a lengthy break.

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They did. They skipped the last phase(s?) of A9S. A lot of mechanics were skipped in A10S and A11S like the second tether tornado (and whatever happens after that, I've never seen beyond that), the last GA100 in A11S, smaller mechanics like tank busters, raid-wide damage, etc. I'm also pretty sure some early A12S clear groups skipped the 3rd void rotation, too.

And you can't check achievements unless someone enables it. The best you can do is look for stuff like the Gobwalker mount, the Faustlet minion, and the Arrhidaeus mount but none of those are completely accurate. They could say that they cleared but didn't win the mount / minion and might not be lying. If we got a title for clearing Savage that would be a better tell but we didn't.

You can check fflogs but if someone doesn't upload a clear parse, you won't be able to tell they've cleared. People can also set their profiles to private. It's very hard to tell how progressed a player is. That's why so many people lie about it.

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

Stone, Sky, Sea? I mean personally I'd rather squeenix embraced addons but I can see why they don't but I'm not sure how this is an argument when such tools are so widely available and easily accessible. No one ""seriously" "raiding"" wouldnt be using stuff anyways.
And like I said, why are you asking for barriers to be put into place when you can pick and choose who stays in your party by checking cheevos? Please read my post, I implore you.

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Look at this thread, please.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...y-via-PF-DF-RF
I have already offered to make a special checkbox in PF for checking the ability of a player to beat the dummy

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

None of what you said pertains to anything I said. Content being relatively easy is another subject entirely. Also I don't recall people skipping phases with A5S-A8S gear in A9S-A12S but I might be wrong as I took a lengthy break. A history lesson would be good. https://i.yuki.la/v/1456789891304.png



Stone, Sky, Sea? I mean personally I'd rather squeenix embraced addons but I can see why they don't but I'm not sure how this is an argument when such tools are so widely available and easily accessible. No one ""seriously" "raiding"" wouldnt be using stuff anyways.
And like I said, why are you asking for barriers to be put into place when you can pick and choose who stays in your party by checking cheevos? Please read my post, I implore you.

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To my knowledge there is nothing in game that you can use to determine a persons skill lv is there?..... Or are you talking about using a third part app that would be against the user agreement?

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

To my knowledge there is nothing in game that you can use to determine a persons skill lv is there?..... Or are you talking about using a third part app that would be against the user agreement?

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Indeed. Right now, without the proper instruments of measuring the player performance (like in-game parser), players are forced to use the 3rd side soft like ACT. Is it correct in a game with a lot of PvE content and lots of DPS checks? I think not

I haven't done any savage like I said because I've been comparing it to the coil for difficulty and decided I wasn't geared enough yet. I can do some of savage now and from what I've heard I can probably do all of it with my current gear even tho I believe it's not good enough for the newest savage.

Things have been becoming increasingly easier, dun scath is easy and I ran that blind when I got around to doing it. The first 2 raids in that line were harder, the void ark was probably the hardest of the 3 when it came out.

I liked much more Alexander Savage (gameply wise) that Coil. But I like coil in looking desing more. Sorry, but I don't agree. I think Alexander is the funniest ontent I've played in the game. Peopel who go savage must know where is they going. Is not a content designed for faceroll (well, maybe the AS1 now with the light farming). We cannot blame the base content only for this. This are diferent conecpt for diferent playstiles.

This sounds like the after effect of a bad pug experience. They're pugs. Sometimes you get good pugs, MOST of the time you get trash pugs. It's always a gamble and acting like there was a time that pugs were good is just silly.
Yeah T9 was a great test of skill but did you ever PUG T9 back in the day? You think Zurvan pugs are bad? Please.

#LULgilgamesh

What everyone is saying is that the new savage is stupid easy, some of the first raid groups that did it wear able to skip some phases from what I've heard.

You shouldn't be able to push any phase in a new raid like savage right after it's release. If there is players that are struggling with doing the new savage mechanics at the easy difficulty it's at obviously they're not skilled enough to belong there. What is supposed to be done? Nerf it more so the lower skilled can run it easier while the skilled players do it in their sleep?

The more skilled players are trying to farm the new savage and even stating and putting it in the party finder the type of players they're looking for they still get inexperienced players joining the party and lying about their experience figuring on getting an easy clear.

It kinda goes against the point of making Creator easier to resurrect the raid scene A1S-A8S killed only to then require you to beat any of the prior >_>

The fact is that adding high-level gating to Raids at this point wouldn't encourage them to be tuned to be harder. If anything, it would encourage the opposite; making them easier so that more people can access them.

The current system seems perfectly fair. Clear the "Normal" version of the Raid, get access to its harder "Savage" difficulty. Furthermore while the successive Savage Fights may not be gated behind the prior set, they are gated by each other with the Progression System. You have to have cleared A9S to enter 10S, etc.. This also has the benefit of allowing players who may not have felt comfortable with their skill level at the release of a prior stage to dive in at the most recent one. Gating it behind the prior stages which may now be utterly bereft of players of a similar skill level who have since moved on to more current content only makes things unnecessarily difficult on those wishing to get into high-end content. Letting them jump into current-content provided they have decent enough gear and cleared a more basic version of the fights helps promote a more active community. You argue that enforcing a smaller grouping of only those who were there from Day 1, or those lucky enough to stumble upon like-minded others willing to go through all the older content, creates a "Tight Knit" community, but this just reeks of elitism.

Again, what you seem to have an issue with is the tuning of the fight, and what you suggest to encourage SE to tune things more to your preference is at best irrelevant to your desires, and at worst would have the opposite effect.

I see what you're going for OP, but I'm not sure gating is the right answer here.

In my humble opinion the problem currently is the large disparity in difficulty between normal and savage mode, with extremely unforgiving mechanics or even entirely new ones thrown in on occasion. I wouldn't ask that savage be nerfed down to be closer to normal mode, but rather normal brought up or modified in such a way that it better prepares players for savage.

Let me use Cruise Chaser as an example since it's fresh in my mind.
-Bring up the number of optical sights to match savage.
-Bring up their damage a bit to keep them lethal over multiple hits.
-Towers in the final phase, isn't even a thing in normal mode if I recall.
-Bring over the Photon / Pyretic combo to normal

Just a few things that sprung mind that *could* have been done in the normal mode to better prepare people for the savage variant. Of course we can't go back and retroactively change these mechanics but I believe that following a similar line of thinking for further raid content going into 4.0 can better prepare players for savage.

TLDR; If we make normal mode fights more threatening than they are now, and make them closer resemble the savage mode variant, we could see an improvement in overall quality of performance.

But that's just my 2 gil and idle musings.

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Originally Posted by Jiao

I see what you're going for OP, but I'm not sure gating is the right answer here.

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I totally disagree, that SE made in 3.X such really strange model- normal mode and Savage mode of the same dungeon, because it is totally not interesting to see the half of the battle and its mechanics in the normal mode and then to see them in Savage. Normal mode musnt be even nearly close to the SAvage, they must differ TOTALLY without any common mechanics

Do you remember the Coil? There was no any "casual" mode for story and hardcore mode for gear (Savage second Coil was a nice experiment). There was only ONE mode- for story and for gear. And you know what? That made the players to try to clear it, because they hadn't the choice. You want to know the story and to get the gear? Make an effort. That is why in the past days of Coil the raid community was much stronger, then now. And what now?

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Originally Posted by Xyno

Do you remember the Coil? There was no any "casual" mode for story and hardcore mode for gear (Savage second Coil was a nice experiment). There was only ONE mode- for story and for gear. And you know what? That made the players to try to clear it, because they hadn't the choice. You want to know the story and to get the gear? Make an effort. That is why in the past days of Coil the raid community was much stronger, then now. And what now?

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exactly! coil was amazing because not only did you work towards getting gear, but seeing the next cutscene was always motivator for a lot of players and it was a good thing!

Oh hey if it isn't our favorite badass catgirl. Now I let you have it in the last threads, but this time I'm on your side. Probably helps that Alexander overall is the most garbage ass excuse for a "raid" I've ever seen and I 100% think the normal/savage setup is a big part of the reason why.

Casuals be damned, we NEED to go back to the Coil setup. If it keeps scrubs from seeing the story, too bad. They should stop being scrubs. This casual pandering ruined Alexander. Don't let it ruin Omega too

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

And WOW! A post like this comes straight from gilgamesh! Why am I not surprised?

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Probably the same reason that nobody's surprised a post like yours came from Balmung. Did you need a quicker raid so you could spend more time at The Quicksand?

I have to agree with xyno. getting the next slice of the story when you finally cleared the next fight in coil was the best reward for me personally, and made it much more memorable.

With the story mode now, you see some of the mechs and can even guess right away how they will be in savage

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Originally Posted by Xyno

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I don't disagree with you, not entirely anyway.

Would I want for returning to singular mode raid system of coil? Yes, in a heartbeat.
What I was trying to do was find a middle ground to suggest a change assuming SE sticks to the HW formula of Story / Savage being separate.

I would argue that story being too easy is setting a precedent for players to expect from savage, and then prompty getting slapped around for it. Would you not agree?

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Probably the same reason that nobody's surprised a post like yours came from Balmung. Did you need a quicker raid so you could spend more time at The Quicksand?

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I'm from Balmung and I avoid the quicksand. Blanket statements help nobody, this also goes for the fellow you're reaponding to.. I just can't be bothered to go get his quote and snip it. Mobile platform problems

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Originally Posted by Xyno

I totally disagree, that SE made in 3.X such really strange model- normal mode and Savage mode of the same dungeon, because it is totally not interesting to see the half of the battle and its mechanics in the normal mode and then to see them in Savage. Normal mode musnt be even nearly close to the SAvage, they must differ TOTALLY without any common mechanics

Do you remember the Coil? There was no any "casual" mode for story and hardcore mode for gear (Savage second Coil was a nice experiment). There was only ONE mode- for story and for gear. And you know what? That made the players to try to clear it, because they hadn't the choice. You want to know the story and to get the gear? Make an effort. That is why in the past days of Coil the raid community was much stronger, then now. And what now?

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This also leads to much smaller participation levels of the over all playerbase and makes justifying spending much money on the Harder raids more difficult. As a general rule it makes more sense to spend money developing content for 60% of your player base than 10%. Unless raiders are going to pay more than the bulk of players it is poor financial sense to invest heavily in content only they will experience.

Gordias didn't fail because it lacked its own story. It failed because the bulk of players found it too hard and got so frustrated that they stoped finding raiding fun. If story was the only motivating factor for raiders that drove them forward, WoW's mythic raiding scene would be non existent.

Tight knit raiding communities also generally mean small. That's a problem. Story mode raids practically everyone does. That's not to say that there shouldn't be both carrots to encourage players to improve and
tools to help them do it. Its just if they are going to develop content for the Higher difficulties, then they need to get their money's worth. That's just common sense.

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Originally Posted by Xyno

Do you remember the Coil? There was no any "casual" mode for story and hardcore mode for gear (Savage second Coil was a nice experiment). There was only ONE mode- for story and for gear. And you know what? That made the players to try to clear it, because they hadn't the choice.

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Actually, no...that made the majority of people avoid it completely, and vocal one complained that they wanted to see the story but couldn't face the threat, thus resulting in the cration of Alex Story mode. And even if some of us liked it that way, from a design point of view, if the majority of player avoid your content, it's bad, and not worth investing time and money on it.

Personally I loved coil the difficulty of it never scared me and wanting to get the story of it drove me to do it, I was all over coil.

I've found with Alex I haven't been impressed at all and have had no real drive to do it. I've done a1-a8 normal mode and I've only run the second set once, I haven't even touched savage yet and honestly I doubt I ever will there's almost no point to it for me. I haven't even done the creator yet due to a lack of interest in it .

You can claim elitist all you want but know the difference between an actual elitist and a skilled player. An elitist believes ppl should be skilled and have no patience for less skilled players, a skilled player knows there is different skill levels and will help them. Its the ppl that stick out the bad alex runs trying to help the ppl having trouble with it that are the skilled players but if those ppl don't take advice given and keep making the same mistakes over and over you can't blame them for getting frustrated. The ppl that rage quit after anywhere from 1-3 wipes usually and get verbally abusive those are more of the elitist type, I've left dungeons/raids and take the penalty when ppl start getting verbally abusive because I won't stand for it.

If the new raid for 4.0 is going to be like Alex has been I may not even start it honestly and I may not be the only one that does that. Its a catch 22 with raids, they make them "too hard' for the less skilled ppl and they don't do the raids and if they make them 'too easy' they still loose raiders.

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Originally Posted by Jiao

I don't disagree with you, not entirely anyway.

Would I want for returning to singular mode raid system of coil? Yes, in a heartbeat.
What I was trying to do was find a middle ground to suggest a change assuming SE sticks to the HW formula of Story / Savage being separate.

I would argue that story being too easy is setting a precedent for players to expect from savage, and then prompty getting slapped around for it. Would you not agree?

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Maybe Im wrong, but Yoshi told about some middle-difficulty mode or content, created special to fill this gap between normal (casual) content and the hardcore content.

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Originally Posted by Xyno

Maybe Im wrong, but Yoshi told about some middle-difficulty mode or content, created special to fill this gap between normal (casual) content and the hardcore content.

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Now that tickles me. I'll be intrigued to see if this comes to fruition.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

The fact that the 3.x design decision for endgame goes from pure faceroll to be able to go into a savage encounter that drops BiS equipment is a gigantic design flaw that must be .

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This is totally wrong its called learning have you heard of it before, like people forget the people that come after them and its really gettin annoying at this point. Look it is just people who simply want to clear the content when they want to like me , I dont play to keep up with others I play to get bang for my buck and that means to not suck up all the content in a week and then come on the forums and complain.

And aside from me where the hell do you think people that are in the nn are gona end up eventually if they come to the game wanting to raid. The fact that people believe that failure only happens when content is fresh is just frankly stupid to me because you always have different players approaching content at different times. So if something is hard now then it will stay hard forever , just because you spamed something when it first came out still doesnt change the fact that someone else well actually many others will come after you with A less chance to spam it because its old, and B more of a toxic environment because people forgot what it was like when they started doing it. So take your gate on somewhere , if you dont wana fail then only do content with your friends and sit down somewhere or go play an rpg.

Having a hard time telling if this is a troll thread or not.

Like you guys beat what you wanted to, unsub and go play something else for a bit. You have neurons, get to firing them.

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Originally Posted by Xyno

Totally agree with you, pal. The game become more and more casual without any barriers to keep the low skill players from the great dungeon rewards. They don't deserve it



He is from Gilgamesh and by his words I see, that that is a good server. I see your words and I see, that you are not from Gilgamesh. You know what?

I see the strong link here- good player like him- on Gilgamesh, player like you, who likes to faceroll the content- not on Gilgamesh. Aha ha

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Woah there cowboy. Let's not put words into my mouth like so many of you guys seem to like doing. Who said I liked face rolling content? I sure didn't say that.

I just like the fact that my team and I can jump into the relevant tier of raiding. Why is it so bad that people can attempt any content?

And yeah, I did call that out, because I know how a lot of people are like on that server.

After thinking for a bit one thing that might solve this entire problem:

Come out with something trial/raid wise or both with a 4 tier difficulty setting where players can select their preferred difficulty from the start, it would be similiar to the arch angel fights from FFXI yes but you didn't need to clear previous ones aside from maybe hard to get very hard.
- As for the rewards from it make them upgrade items to bump up the ilvl of tombs gear
- Set the drop rate differently for each difficulty for those items, the harder the fight the higher the drop rates are

doing something like that would allow for the 'barriers' to separate the various skill levels without causing ppl to feel like they're running the same thing. All players would be able to get the rewards out of it but at the same time making everyone work for them.

Of course there is bound to be those that will disagree with this suggestion, personally I would think those ppl would classify as an elitist because of course they wouldn't want less skilled players to get the same gear they have.

Yes please. This game never test player's gameplay and we end with garbages in EX.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

After thinking for a bit one thing that might solve this entire problem:

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The thing is people have unrealistic expectations its like some of the players in this game really live in their own individual reality, lets say there is a gate right and people do the content when it comes out they farm it wipe time after time until they figured it out. It could have taken them 20 times until they finally cleared it, fast forward 2 or 3 months later someone from the novice network is ready to raid finally finish all of arr and hw and is ready to get in on the endgame.

Playerbase response : oh wait you wernt doing this 3 months ago when it first came out , oh your new to the content get out of my content scrub, if your in my rf group then you better not fail once are Im gona cuss you out and tell you how crappy of a player you are because it only took me 20 times to clear this myself the first time. But you know what it should take you one time you got one time are Im kickin you out of my party your a slum and a scrub get good. Sound about right to me , a gate will do nothing at all because once someone beats said gate after everyone else has already dismantled whats after it back at square one your a scrub and a noob and dont need to be in my content this is a portion of the playerbase and its sad.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

The thing is people have unrealistic expectations its like some of the players in this game really live in their own individual reality, lets say there is a gate right and people do the content when it comes out they farm it wipe time after time until they figured it out. It could have taken them 20 times until they finally cleared it, fast forward 2 or 3 months later someone from the novice network is ready to raid finally finish all of arr and hw and is ready to get in on the endgame.

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Yes you have the right of it there and unfortunately those players do exist and I hate them, it was those type of players that almost cause me to quit playing before I had even been on the game for a month.

I don't know if you're familiar with FFXI and the arch angel fights on there (and sorry I do refer to XI often simply because its the first online game like this one I had played tho its technically the second one, the first online game I played was monster hunter) but what I am suggesting is a 4 tier system. It would be almost exactly the same thing with the same drops except varied in difficulty and different drop rates.

Basicly when the new content is released ppl can select to do the hard mode of the raid and not have to do the first 2, the ppl that are less skilled and less geared than the ones that farmed the previous content in the first few days are able to still do the new content and have the same gaming experience as the 'elite' but they get to do it on thier own skill level.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Yes you have the right of it there and unfortunately those players do exist and I hate them, it was those type of players that almost cause me to quit playing before I had even been on the game for a month.

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Id love something like this because it would just be more content in the game but Im truly of the mind that the more I do something the better I will be at it and I think thats how alot of players are. The problem is this and its probably impossible to fix we have players at all different not necessarily skill gaps but time frames that play the game. For instance people who have been farming zur extreme when first released by nature sill be better at that fight than those whom will come and do it 2 months after release.

I play in a way that I always remember I always recall what it was like when I first tried certain content in the game, I always keep in mind that everyone isnt me and Im not everybody so Im always ok with people having their chance at trying. That is something that alot of players do not care for in this game, if the weapon is outdated, if the gear is to old then I dont care about whether ur learning this now , this content is old its beneathe me now is what happens to content in the game for players. So where as zur may have gone down to the wire a few weeks ago in most pf with ten mins remaining in two months after 20 mins somebody is leaving, because like I said some people just play this game as an rpg and forget the shared aspect of the game.

To me if I failed at this content over and over again then you have the right to fail as well, thats called fairness, but people who think like me are very rare and fair in between. It becomes easy for everyone when it becomes easy for you is the mentality so tiers different degrees in difficultly will not change anything even tho its a great idea , but if you are a returning player out of luck, if ur new out of luck, if you take your time in the game out of luck. Thats the problem not that the content is to hard or that everyone is so under skilled its more so once someone gets what they want out of said content its pretty much F everyone else at that point. The only feature that is a must of more understanding and recollection by the playerbase as a whole and to accept your just not always gona win when you go into an instance.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

exactly! coil was amazing because not only did you work towards getting gear, but seeing the next cutscene was always motivator for a lot of players and it was a good thing!

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Actually, it isn't. The vast majority of people simply watched it on Youtube and/or complained they couldn't finish the story due to its difficulty. Hence why we have Alexander the way it is now.

The overall story of Coil was much better than Alexander's I think

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

I want to know if most people agree with this. If they do, I will likely have to find a new game to play, sadly.

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I've heard Wildstar is doing well these days.

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Originally Posted by myahele

The overall story of Coil was much better than Alexander's I think

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It had like an entire game (1.0) lead-up. Even if Alexander had a good story, I doubt it could've topped coil.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

wah

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This falls apart when you remember that Gordias existed, ostricizing the entire midcore playerbase and outright murdering the raid scene. Had the lock remained, 3% of us would have been in Midas. They were forced to drop the lock because they messed up.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

but if you are a returning player out of luck, if ur new out of luck, if you take your time in the game out of luck. Thats the problem not that the content is to hard or that everyone is so under skilled its more so once someone gets what they want out of said content its pretty much F everyone else at that point. The only feature that is a must of more understanding and recollection by the playerbase as a whole and to accept your just not always gona win when you go into an instance.

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I disagree since one of my friends came back to the game the other week he's been gone for 4 months or so, he got caught up on MSQ, did Alexander normal and got crafted gear. He went in blind into A9S and died once to Acid Rain, we went onto A10S and he only died to 1 crusher, we cleared both. We didn't have time for A11S since it was late in the night and he had to work but the bottom line is he never did Midas or Gordias raiding he did coil back in the day and cleared A9S and A10S in a single night.

For returning players they have the tools and means to getting gear and raiding, same as new players once they get there it's not hard to get gear the game throws it at you and once you start capping weekly and doing your weekly raids you'll have full 270 in no time. The reason people say screw everyone is because in raiding you can't jump in and help people without losing a chest which when you're trying to gear up really sucks I'd love to jump in and help people but that depends on the time and day in the week if they care about 1/2/pages run. I only go into groups that need help when I haven't cleared so I can help the group and not gimp their drops, like when my friend hadn't done any Creator Savage.

The only thing that I really do not like about SEs gearing in the early ilvl grind at 60 is that it's very boring, very gated, and you get no gear while doing these dungeons such as ARF/Neverreap/Fractal since it's old content that no one needs. PvP is the only alternative if you are new honestly it's 235 gear, gives you lore, scrip, it's starter gear for the dungeons while you start buying more accuracy for 230 gear and jump into Creator so you avoid queing for Midas and Gordias as the ques would be well over a few hours. It honestly needs to be addressed as SE has kinda screwed the pooch with their ilvl gating which in turn makes new players hate gearing any alt classes without PvP.

Gating has other benefits, besides the special-club effect - it makes people want to tackle content that they otherwise wouldn't. In 2.4, Titan EX still mattered - people wanted the clear because it unlocked something, and us gamers tend to hate having anything on the "still need to unlock" list. Much fewer people bothered to clear Ifrit EX afterwards, which is telling of how important that unlock carrot was in the equation.

Now, aside from people that seriously intend to farm birds, your average new 60 has little reason to care about any tough fights that aren't Zurvan EX or Creator Savage. Two to five fights that matter at any given time. That number was nine to twelve in 2.4.

And it extends to players helping and teaching the newer folk too. How often do folk go and get some FC mates their Nidhogg EX clear? Mog EX clear runs happened all the time, because people also feel bad for someone who needs something unlocked. It was the kind of community builder that's just flat absent in HW. Nobody gives a damn about your bird.

For this reason, I would strongly support a return of gating, so long as SE is smart about it. If Bend of Time is going to have three difficulties, make the middle ones gate each tier and just let savage be savage. Assuming primals continue, do up to two gates a la Primal Focus, and importantly make sure the first entry in each gate is on the easier side. Sophia EX would be a good fight to serve as a gate; Bis EX very much was not.

The reasons the Bis EX gate was cancerous were that it served as a gate -on release-, demanded strong dps at current gear levels, while being on the back of a fresh expansion and job changes/additions no less. And it was also the only thing to do for a bit at level cap save for Law farming. There was thus a massive population of players trying Bis EX who normally would not have been worrying about it until they had better gear, most of which had no business attempting an EX primal on release like that.

The dismal fail parties that resulted, and the useless-joke level of the drops, turned the players who had clears off of trying to help others without bringing a full premade. And people's interest in leveling their second and third classes at the time made even those groups hard to pull together. SE, as usual, decided to bludgeon-overkill the problem by saying no more gates, rather than applying some critical thinking to what was really going on there.

T9 was also one of the easiest fights that's ever been released, requiring minimal skill at execution beyond, 'Can you memorize this mechanic for this one phase'? All problematic mechanics vanished once you passed the relevant phase, and it was a total mess of a fight with neither logical escalation or building mechanics. It was literally just like trying to entertain a child with an entire box of disjointed toys, making for a very aggravating and boring experience... and the gear is absolutely atrocious in design as well, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

T9 was also one of the easiest fights that's ever been released, requiring minimal skill at execution beyond, 'Can you memorize this mechanic for this one phase'? All problematic mechanics vanished once you passed the relevant phase, and it was a total mess of a fight with neither logical escalation or building mechanics. It was literally just like trying to entertain a child with an entire box of disjointed toys, making for a very aggravating and boring experience... and the gear is absolutely atrocious in design as well, IMHO.

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still served its purpose as a skill gate for fcob

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

This falls apart when you remember that Gordias existed, ostricizing the entire midcore playerbase and outright murdering the raid scene. Had the lock remained, 3% of us would have been in Midas. They were forced to drop the lock because they messed up.

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The issues with gordias is that it was overtune, with echo group can easily overcome the harsh dps check. So there is no excuse for not clearing after echo was added in.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

still served its purpose as a skill gate for fcob

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Memorizing a 100% scripted fight =/= skill. Memorizing isn't a skill, it's just following a checklist. An actual skill check would be a fight that not only involved a ton of mechanics, but equally difficult mechanics, requiring the party to actually adapt to the boss' actions as they came out rather than the easily exploitable alternative.