Another Platform primal in 3.5, is this how all of them will be in the future jc?

The only thing that bothers me with this is latency. Oddly enough, if I have any delays is of less than a second, as all my commands are very responsive. Yet, if I don't get out of Titan's ldandslide the exact moment he starts casting it, I'll fall off even if I'm not longer on the way. That's the sole reason why I fall. Being one second too late means I'm basically gambling as there's a 50% chance the attack will hit me regardless. I noticed that happening to most other AOEs as well, where getting out of the way a second or two after they're announced will still accuse damage. No idea if it could be bc I'm playing with FPS locked at 30, but that shouldn't be the case seeing as how FPS caps are built in the game engine.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Not with those mention , for one nobody even runs the actual arr primals on my server

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With the advent of Wondrous Tails, I seriously doubt that "nobody" is running the ARR primals, seeing as there are PFs for EX primals all the time for that. Unless your server is so backwater as to have no population, someone has to be running those at some point or another.

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

I like platforms as well. Keeps you aware of your surroundings, instead of staring at the ground, waiting for the next AOE to avoid. Sophia is too forgiving, with being able to be raised after falling, IMO.

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Agree, I wish Sophia "falling of" had been the same as Sephriot ex fall off.

I used to have bad latency too, but then I realized all the fights that make you fall off have a very fixed rotation or tell. Especially titan ex! Just prep yourself to move after every tumult and every weight of the lands, 90% of the time he uses one and follows up with landslide. I learned to move a half second before he even casts and haven't fallen off unless the group doesn't stack to bait:3 so there are ways around it^^ back when I was playing at 19fps titan was still my favourite fight because of the adrenaline rush you get from dodging those landslidesxD

1) Its only challenging when you have to perform 100%
2) Performing 100% results in easy fight and complains to make it harder
3) Devils circle repeats!

In old games we had an "action -> reaction" mechanic and not a "remember the pattern" mechanic...
Preparation nowadays is watching a video and learn the pattern... there is no longer a trial/error system!

Not only platforms, many attacks are oneshooting!
Let a Tank die and try to recover... let a heal die and try to recover...
Developers should not aim to make a challenge because YOU are the one who makes it a challenge - You can have a challenging battle against level 1 rats if you like.
Developers should aim to make it an adventure with unexpected twists or surprises... something you like to play again and again and not something you just "farm".

I wouldn't mind something different for primal fights. I like platform fights, but some variety wouldn't be bad. Leviathan extreme is the most fun primal fight I think, though frustrating with randoms who keep falling all the time.
I would like an element of rng and improvisation to some primal fights for maximum fun and replayability. How to implement that exactly? I've only shallow ideas, I'm sure the devs can think of something smart.
Most primals can't be very creative or fun as the playerbase is to put it bluntly, stupid and lazy.

To be fair, primals are somewhat forgiving. I've had thordan runs where its just the 2 tanks left, or a tank and a dps, and with me as PLD, can clemancy our way to victory over the last 8-15%

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I'm just curious , I got the sense that people thought Thornmarch , or Ramuh , where fairly challenging judging from guides Ive seen and stuff like that.

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Mog EX is anything but challenging, even when it was the last added lol

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Originally Posted by Isala

With the advent of Wondrous Tails, I seriously doubt that "nobody" is running the ARR primals, seeing as there are PFs for EX primals all the time for that. Unless your server is so backwater as to have no population, someone has to be running those at some point or another.

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running them unsync is not what i really consider running them, people farm them for ponies are wanders tails etc but nobody is doing them sync anymore the samething will happen to all of the hw primals when the next expansion comes out. And I think all this does is leave a gap for players late to the game they want see any challenging content until storm blood because everything before it will be irrelevant. But thats a totally different story tho

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

In old games we had an "action -> reaction" mechanic and not a "remember the pattern" mechanic...
Preparation nowadays is watching a video and learn the pattern... there is no longer a trial/error system!

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That still exists? Lol. Not every group is going to have the exact same damage output, not every group is going to have the same exact healing output, etc.

Also, how does an arena being the same or a similar concept mean THE ENTIRE fight, that we haven't seen fully either, is just a matter of repeating patterns? Also, how do you get true random in an MMO fight/trial/raid? You can't, there has to be some degree of autonomy but not outright random acts here and there. That would just be atrocious and only a niche group would like that, let alone do it.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

i'd prefer they have more arenas like Binding Coil Turn 1.

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That would be awesome.

Or maybe something like diabolos in XI where chunks of the floor fall away throughout the fight.

or arenas that have a more 3dimensional affect. like hide behind objects to avoid a. massive gust or be on top of them to avoid a huge tidal wave. maybe under them to avoid a meteorstorm.

another irk I have is that jumping never works. even if you jump over the poison puddles in av and never step in them you still take the debuff...

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Also, how does an arena being the same or a similar concept mean THE ENTIRE fight, that we haven't seen fully either, is just a matter of repeating patterns? Also, how do you get true random in an MMO fight/trial/raid? You can't, there has to be some degree of autonomy but not outright random acts here and there. That would just be atrocious and only a niche group would like that, let alone do it.

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Most of the old school mmos did had this. fights were a lot more random and a lot less scripted. Using its predecessor XI as an example. you had proto omega. that might use a citadel buster on a tank once in the entire fight. or 3 times in the same minute. or he might put up manashields almost back to back crippling your groups magic damage, or he might never use them giving your mages free reign.

or boss ultimates for example. you could fight suzaku in sky and find he pops his chainspell literally straight away. the next fight he might not use it till hes at 10% hp... or a byakko that might pop perfect dodge at 90% hp just when all your dps have popped there damage buffs... it took a lot more skill and adaption than just memorize a dance and win.

it even existed to a degree in xiv 1.2 with ifrit. the pattern of plumes eruption and incinerates was a lot more random. the only constraint was you never saw the same one twice in a row. in arr you know which one is coming next and exactly where the plumes will be.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

running them unsync is not what i really consider running them, people farm them for ponies are wanders tails etc but nobody is doing them sync anymore the samething will happen to all of the hw primals when the next expansion comes out. And I think all this does is leave a gap for players late to the game they want see any challenging content until storm blood because everything before it will be irrelevant. But thats a totally different story tho

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I mean... its like 2+ year old content... Who cares if anyone's doing them synced? There's current challenging content to do.

I don't mind the platform bosses if they take their cue from Sophia and put people's bodies back up top somehow so there's at least a chance of salvaging a run gone wrong.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

I mean... its like 2+ year old content... Who cares if anyone's doing them synced? There's current challenging content to do.

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I was just answering a question someone else asked , I wasnt sayin that people should be forced to do this content I was just sayin that unsync doesnt count as a real clear, if you come to the game late its harder to get a real clear of old content because people dont do it

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I was just answering a question someone else asked , I wasnt sayin that people should be forced to do this content I was just sayin that unsync doesnt count as a real clear, if you come to the game late its harder to get a real clear of old content because people dont do it

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If they didn't offer unsynced clears you wouldn't even get a "fake clear" cause you would literally have no one doing it.

I dont understand the issue with primals that you fight on a platform. Especially with Sophia and the ones after her. Now that they made it so if you fall of you can get rezzed, it's just like any other ground level fight.

Say you are a solo tank in Ramuh (ex). You lose your debuff so you don't get smited, and as you are gathering orbs to put back up, Ramuh smited you and you die. You can still get rezzed and jump back into the fight.

Say you're in Sophia. You miscount her scale mechanic and fall off to your demise. You can get rezzed and jump back into the fight.

They are both the same now. It's just another form of an instant kill mechanic if you don't do it properly. As far as I'm aware, they're going to do more of these, where falling isn't a perma-death.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

If they didn't offer unsynced clears you wouldn't even get a "fake clear" cause you would literally have no one doing it.

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I did the fake clear but I personally go back and do them sync cause im not about a fake clear its not real and it turned hard content into a cake walk and I dont feel accomplished is all im saying

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I did the fake clear but I personally go back and do them sync cause im not about a fake clear its not real and it turned hard content into a cake walk and I dont feel accomplished is all im saying

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If you did it without syncing to minimum ilvl you didn't get a real clear.... #goalposts

I'm going to laugh if the devs read this thread and the answer they come up with is to make a series of trials that are similar to Steps of Faith in structure.

I want more divebombs again. D:

A whole expansion about dragons and no single trial/raid with those. Come on Niddhog... even Twintania could target a player before charging through the arena. :p

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

A whole expansion about dragons and no single trial/raid with those. C

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we have thordan extreme with the dive bomb knights just before the 2 knights phase ^^

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

we have thordan extreme with the dive bomb knights just before the 2 knights phase ^^

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Yes, but those are not targeted towards a player, they're just charging straight through a specific path. ^^
The mechanic which comes most close to divebombs is also in Thordan, when the player is tethered by a knight, who charges to him then.

Divebombs never felt like a challenging mechanic, they always felt like you were battling it out with the server being made of paperclips and shoe string to be lucky that it was counting you as being in the right place.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Most of the old school mmos did had this. fights were a lot more random and a lot less scripted. Using its predecessor XI as an example. you had proto omega. that might use a citadel buster on a tank once in the entire fight. or 3 times in the same minute. or he might put up manashields almost back to back crippling your groups magic damage, or he might never use them giving your mages free reign.

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Citadel Buster is not the best example, as that particular ability was NOT random. It was on a strict timer, used regularly starting once the boss reached 20% health. (Also, it was actually Proto-Ultima that used it.) Armor Buster is a better example - while not as lethal as Citadel Buster, it was still pretty bad, and Ultima randomly chose between it and several other TP abilities. While the odds were against it, it COULD use Armor Buster several times in quick succession, and doing so would generally leave an alliance in tatters.

This was pretty common in FFXI; bosses would typically have at least one really nasty trick, and it would be randomly shuffled in with a bunch of less nasty moves. How often you got the bad one was pure chance; you might go the whole fight and never see it, or the boss might use it back to back.

The thing is, though, bosses in FFXI were reactive, not proactive. They weren't a matter of memorizing patterns, and preparing yourself for attacks that you know are coming, so much as learning what to do recover after the boss took certain actions. It's a different sort of playstyle than we're used to in FFXIV, but I don't think it's a bad one. Weathering unfortunate boss RNG of that sort was among the greatest challenge that the game had to offer.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

If you did it without syncing to minimum ilvl you didn't get a real clear.... #goalposts

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The thing is, sync adds an element of challenge to these fights, without making them nigh-impossible. The fact that the option exists to crank up the difficulty to max doesn't invalidate the satisfaction you get from cranking up the difficulty merely to the point where people have to actually pay attention to the fight.

You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who will claim that they gained any sort of satisfaction out of completing a fight unsynced, while plenty of folks will get a rush from doing the same content synced, but not minimum ilvl. "Why bother to make it hard for yourself, when you can make it SUPER hard for yourself?" is a very thin argument.

I understand and respect folks who want to get a taste of what the fights were like back when they were still relevant.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who will claim that they gained any sort of satisfaction out of completing a fight unsynced, while plenty of folks will get a rush from doing the same content synced, but not minimum ilvl. "Why bother to make it hard for yourself, when you can make it SUPER hard for yourself?" is a very thin argument.

I understand and respect folks who want to get a taste of what the fights were like back when they were still relevant.

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Doing fights with everyone synced down to what would have been BIS gear isn't what it was like when it was "relevant" either. My point is that your "real clear" isn't "real" either - in the exact same way that someone clearing Thordan Ex in 260 right now for example isn't experiencing what the fight was like when it was relevant.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Doing fights with everyone synced down to what would have t.

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But its still not the same thing to where you can ignore the mechanics competently, and do a fight that would take ten mins are more sometimes, and condense it into 2 or 3 mins there is a huge difference. Nobody is rage quiting unsync primals or abandoning them, people arent farming sync for the horses , they are doing that with unsync there is a major difference here. And this goes again to how you play the game maybe everyone doesnt want to rush to the very end of the game and just do their dalies , and farm the same raid again and again.

Maybe some people view this as a whole entire game not just 10 percent of a game, so Ill never be the first to clear anything simply because Id rather stretch out whats in front of me and always have things to do instead of rushing to endgame and focusing on two or three things at a time thats not fun to me.

You know...call me sadistic but I wouldn't argue with a primal or boss that required everyone to sprint through a hallway or whatever to avoid being 1 shot, with obvious time to regain TP without a Brd/Mch. However I think I like the idea of platforms over pure DPS tests, don't mind some but I just feel lately the amount of platform based enemies has been a nice break from almost mandatory potions and pushes.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

You know...call me sadistic but I wouldn't argue with a primal or boss that required everyone to sprint through a hallway or whatever to avoid .

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Ramuh isnt like that, nor Shiva, its many more mechanics than just run to avoid aoe, if you are gona put in a mechanic to where you can raise like they did for sophia then what exactly is the point in continuing on with platform based only primals then.

It must of been some vocal part of the community to speak out agaisnt this or why else would they of changed it. A platform anything is just an annoyance , its not a true test of skill, you could have an amazing healer, great dps, great at healing but I guess the community would call this healer bad if they failed at not falling off a platform if that logic is true then it doesnt make much sense to me at all.

Kind of looks like he is pulling us into a different dimension or something at the end of the clip, maybe the stage will change.

Failing of mechanics is failing of mechanics, doesn't matter if there's a platform or not.

The move that kicks you off the platform would just kill you instead if there wasn't a platform at all. It would have the same result.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Failing of mechanics is failing of mechanics, doesn't matter if there's a platform or not.
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I just find it pretty silly to say if you have trouble with one in game mechanic then , you have failed them all. The way some of the people on these forums talk I would love to see these perfect magical runs everyone has that never fail at mechanics, that never die that have never falling off any platform ever. How having content without said platforms people still die , its just not permanent and what exactly is wrong with that, if they are going to go a path of letting you raise after falling them the platform as people say loses its significance and then just becomes annoying.

So what is wrong with having different options why is this a problem to anyone? And it would not be the same result an example would be you fail a mechanic you die you come back in and do extremely well parties almost about to whipe you lb or something kill the primal, because you had a chance to be raised. Same fight with how platforms where before is your just dead, nobody sees your skill nobody sees what you can do , so no the result isnt the same.

Thing is... Afaik you can't do FCoB minimum ilvl anyway, without gathering all the SCoB BiS items first. Stat/meld nerfs on our current gear leads to healers without acc (healer damage is needed for clear) and other jobs usually with way to less acc.
Me for myself got some misses there unsync.. fail.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So what is wrong with having different options why is this a problem to anyone? And it would not be the same result an example would be you fail a mechanic you die you come back in and do extremely well parties almost about to whipe you lb or something kill the primal, because you had a chance to be raised. Same fight with how platforms where before is your just dead, nobody sees your skill nobody sees what you can do , so no the result isnt the same.

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No one said options are a bad thing. Your seeming hatred of platform fights is strange though. A persons skill in this game can be equated to their ability to perform their job well while following mechanics. Getting hit be an avoidable aoe and dying during a critical moment in a fight, causing a wipe, and getting knocked off a platform and causing a wipe are about equal in fails imo.

If you "have skill" then unless its a learning party, then you shouldn't need to get rezzed as long as you are performing mechanics and someone else doesnt kill you.

The newer platform fights allow you to be rezzed as well, so I they are moving away from that. A person getting rezzed and LB'ing to save the fight is a rare thing. I've actually had more instances in EX's where the few remaining people alive are able to finish the fight in time.

I mean, there are also a number of fights where touching the perimeter kills you instantly (t5, t9, t13, Thordan). Failing certain mechanics can cause you to go into the wall and kill you - I'm not sure how this is any different from falling mechanics now that you can still be raised after falling.

Every fight in this game is heavily scripted, it just takes practice, especially to avoid the instant kill mechanics. Almost every fight has something that will kill you if you mess up, so simply practice and improve. If they stop using platform mechanics, count on there being an insta-death wall or other deadly mechanics that will act in the same way.

I don't mind the platforms and elimination mechanics. They tend to separate the men from the boys. However, I do grow a bit tired of 'kill adds, survive ultimate' mechanic with the primals. Actually, I'm very sick of it. I have just recently got into 3.0 so I don't know if this continues, but I already know Ravana has the same damn mechanic, so apparently not.

I really liked Diabolos' door mechanic. That was something fresh and exciting, annnnnd wasted since it can be totally ignored if you're overgeared for the instance. My suggestion to make it a wipe mechanic that can't be ignored was pretty much thrown right back in my face. No wonder "face roll" is so often used to describe all content other than savage/EX. No middle ground whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Doing fights with everyone synced down to what would have been BIS gear isn't what it was like when it was "relevant" either. My point is that your "real clear" isn't "real" either - in the exact same way that someone clearing Thordan Ex in 260 right now for example isn't experiencing what the fight was like when it was relevant.

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Believe me, my time doing Mentor Roulette has made it very clear that there's a WORLD of difference between unsynced and max ilvl. Running these fights synced adds real challenge for newer players, particularly fights like Odin (healers' hell) and Ramuh (so much coordination needed). Max ilvl isn't going to save you from a mishandled Chaotic Strike or Glass Dance (to say nothing of Landslide).

No one said anything about trying to replicate the fights back when they were fresh and new and players with last patch's gear were struggling their way through. What many players want is the opportunity to see what it was like when mechanics MATTERED. For Final Fantasy fans, especially, battles against foes like Ifrit or Shiva or Ultima Weapon should be EPIC. These are icons of the franchise. Derping your way through the fight unsynced while the primals pelt you with pitiful scratch damage is simply not comparable to running the fight synced, even if the players are at max ilvl for the fight. I don't think that it's odd at all that players would want to see what these fights were like in their heyday, even if max gear ilvl (and echo!) gives them advantages in the fight that the original players didn't have.

imo the most annoying mechs are where you are put at the mercy of the other people in the group. Like Ramuh's chaos or whatever it's called. Incredibly annoying when you go to the waymark and no-one can be ar$ed to release you. specially the fact that SE even went one step further, that trolling animation where you slow walk into the aoe lol

in fact only thing worse, is being in the healer gaol on Titan, and the team ignore the fact the gaol is sitting on a landslide and break you out into it lmao. there is literally nothing you can do, your team just threw you off the edge. it's one thing being punished when I've fcked up, but it's a whole new level of trigger when you pay the price for other people being d!ckheads

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

imo the most annoying mechs are where you are put at the mercy of the other people...

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your worse is my favorite. group coordination mechanics are good.

@Gemina:

Bismarck EX: dps check on adds to survive ultimate
Ravana EX: dps check on adds unless you can burn right past them to survive ultimate
Thordan EX: dps adds (meteors) to survive ultimate
Sephirot EX: dps adds (light dps/heal check) to survive ultimate; later in fight, dps adds + wind + avoid mechanics to survive the phase.
Sophia EX: dps adds + split damage or sacrifice team member to survive ultimate. This is the easiest dps/heal check of all of the extremes at launch and I've still seen people fail it...

But you are correct, this has been the fixed pattern of Heavensward eikons.

I think overall Shiva's gimmick worked best when it came to punishing players for hitting a wall/being at the edge of a battlefield. I think it would be more interesting to see gimmicks where if you time it wrong or go back to far you are bound/unable to act for a set amount of time, rather than instant death which can be pretty dull at times. But what if rather than instant death you get punished by losing a party member for a certain amount of time but during that loss of time the Primal uses that trapped player to empower themselves?


So the more players that fall prey to that gimmick the tougher the boss would be for that set amount of time where say 6/8 were trapped it would pretty much put the Primal into enrage but from 1-4/8 trapped it would be manageable as long as you have a tank/healer not trapped.

Basically if one person is trapped no bigger just adds a haste to the Primals attacks, if two get trapped not an att boost is added on top of that haste, if 3 are trapped now you have a tank buster forcing tanks to switch up til the players are freed or having the healers needing to keep a better eye on HP of tha tank. If 4 get trapped then the Primal gets a random barrier in one direction that reflect damage til they are free etc etc.

It's just another way they could punished people instead of a death fall which could be interesting to see in future content.