2.0..... Why

and people are fighting to pay full price per month to play this.....lol......

I don't see how anyone can defend stripping someone of the all their spells, making them wait a year to most likely give them to another class, and then be forced to level up the class if they want to use them. Yoshida said it wasn't his policy to do a wipe, but I don't see how anyone could view this as anything but a rollback. He doesn't want to undo people's progress, yet he takes away all of their abilities after saying he wouldn't alter the fundamentals of the class? Am I crazy or is there a level of disparity here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

I don't see how anyone can defend stripping someone of the all their spells, making them wait a year to most likely give them to another class, and then be forced to level up the class if they want to use them. Yoshida said it wasn't his policy to do a wipe, but I don't see how anyone could view this as anything but a rollback. He doesn't want to undo people's progress, yet he takes away all of their abilities after saying he wouldn't alter the fundamentals of the class? Am I crazy or is there a level of disparity here?

---

No. The thing is we (players) aren't the one messing around with the engine nor source code nor backend, therefore all things done are obviously part of a grander scheme than what players can (or want to) see. Taking away abilities and spells aren't progress in the sense "Hey you just completed the main storyline!" What has to be remembered is FFXIV is undergoing an overhaul and foundation rewrite, stuff like this is to be expected -- The level cap is also being raised eventually which will introduce more spells and abilities.

An overhaul means thing can and will change. We are not experiencing 1.20 and 1.21 (major class changes overall) so we can't say the fundamentals have changed yet because who's to say the original implementation were exactly how they wanted it? The game has been an up and down rollercoaster since 2010.

EDITEDATHOUSANDTIMES:

Man, why even speculate?

could be the programming interferes with what they want to progress with.

but damn it sucks lol

To all the people throwing around with "server architecture won't let them do what they want", please do explain me how removing all the enfeebling spell has anything to do with that? It worked before, why remove them completely? They could just remove them later when the class that is meant to get them gets released. And no, vague statements like "we'll get them back when you absolutely need them" don't make me speculate about any hidden meaning behind them.

"Grander scheme"?
"This is just beta, it will get better after <insert future date here>"?
Seriously? Do you actually believe in this yourself? Dismissing issues and simply hoping for the dev team to make everything better is pretty naive, especially after what we've been through.

Actually...

They're not busy playing Rift or WoW...

They're busy revamping the Market Ward search to make it comparable to an AH, adding a player search and LFG system that actually works, AND revamping classes AND adding a combo system.

...All in one patch.

Let's not sweat the small stuff, guys. It's one spell.
And for all the people saying that WHM/BLM or CON/THM are indistinguishable and convoluted:
One of them has AoE healing, buffing, and a panic button "ultimate attack" presumably called Holy.
One of them has Ancient Magic, convert, and nuking buffs.

That is way more diversity than we had before.
Here is my con/thm action bar as is:
Cure II, Cure III, Sac II, Sac III, prot/shell/ss/ss, blood rite, profundity, dark seal, chainspell, soughspeak, 10m MP regen, assorted debuffs, Aero, Scourge, and Shadowsear/Tornado.

On both classes, it is exactly the same, in exactly the same order. It is literally like I am playing the same class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

"Grander scheme"?
"This is just beta, it will get better after <insert future date here>"?
Seriously? Do you actually believe in this yourself? Dismissing issues and simply hoping for the dev team to make everything better is pretty naive, especially after what we've been through.

---

No matter how many times people explain why this is said it still gets ignored. If you can with a straight face write out that FFXIV today is no better than what was released in September of 2010, you have a reason to believe people are naive that the developers can't make the game better.

Players think in short term, only for themselves and generally their own personal enjoyment -- Developers think of the game overall and long term, which is why they do changes or make additions or subtractions that will benefit the game overall. SE went on record numerous times to state a lot of changes can't happen or they're doing x change in y way because of the poor server infrastructure. So the issues aren't being "dismissed", it's simply because it's a well known fact certain issues can't be fixed until they're running on the new server and client -- It's like trying to force Crysis to run on a Windows 95 built machine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

No matter how many times people explain why this is said it still gets ignored. If you can with a straight face write out that FFXIV today is no better than what was released in September of 2010, you have a reason to believe people are naive that the developers can't make the game better.

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That was not what I was trying to say.

Quote:

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SE went on record numerous times to state a lot of changes can't happen or they're doing x change in y way because of the poor server infrastructure.

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This might be true, but it could as well be another of those "PS2/PS3 limitations"-excuses we've been hearing from them or several other companies.

Quote:

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So the issues aren't being "dismissed", it's simply because it's a well known fact certain issues can't be fixed until they're running on the new server and client -- It's like trying to force Crysis to run on a Windows 95 built machine.

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And this leads to them removing all the enfeebling magic how?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

I don't see how anyone can defend stripping someone of the all their spells, making them wait a year to most likely give them to another class, and then be forced to level up the class if they want to use them. Yoshida said it wasn't his policy to do a wipe, but I don't see how anyone could view this as anything but a rollback. He doesn't want to undo people's progress, yet he takes away all of their abilities after saying he wouldn't alter the fundamentals of the class? Am I crazy or is there a level of disparity here?

---

Sorry man, you are arguing a point that 90% of the people on these forums are blind to.

Most of the people who post here are completely unwilling to accept that fact that Yoshida is doing the exact opposite of what he said he was going to do. You can make as many excuses as you want, engine this 2.0 that, but when you say you will not fundamentally change the way classes work and then you fundamentally change the way classes work you have lost my trust.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Sorry man, you are arguing a point that 90% of the people on these forums are blind to.

Most of the people who post here are completely unwilling to accept that fact that Yoshida is doing the exact opposite of what he said he was going to do. You can make as many excuses as you want, engine this 2.0 that, but when you say you will not fundamentally change the way classes work and then you fundamentally change the way classes work you have lost my trust.

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just like format i changed your words too. that is a very bold statement, what exactly has he said he would d that he is now doing the opposite with

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

To all the people throwing around with "server architecture won't let them do what they want", please do explain me how removing all the enfeebling spell has anything to do with that? It worked before, why remove them completely? They could just remove them later when the class that is meant to get them gets released. And no, vague statements like "we'll get them back when you absolutely need them" don't make me speculate about any hidden meaning behind them.

---

its like cooking simplified. You cook the ingredients in order. You wont get the same dish by dumping it in all at once or in a diff. order. Depending on how u make the the results may turn out good, it may turn out bad, or it may turn out good and an hour later your Niagara falls in the bathroom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shoopdadoopdoop

Actually...

They're not busy playing Rift or WoW...

They're busy revamping the Market Ward search to make it comparable to an AH, adding a player search and LFG system that actually works, AND revamping classes AND adding a combo system.

...All in one patch.

Let's not sweat the small stuff, guys. It's one spell.
And for all the people saying that WHM/BLM or CON/THM are indistinguishable and convoluted:
One of them has AoE healing, buffing, and a panic button "ultimate attack" presumably called Holy.
One of them has Ancient Magic, convert, and nuking buffs.

That is way more diversity than we had before.
Here is my con/thm action bar as is:
Cure II, Cure III, Sac II, Sac III, prot/shell/ss/ss, blood rite, profundity, dark seal, chainspell, soughspeak, 10m MP regen, assorted debuffs, Aero, Scourge, and Shadowsear/Tornado.

On both classes, it is exactly the same, in exactly the same order. It is literally like I am playing the same class.

---

its more then 1 spell lol. Those "assorted enfeebs" = just sleep lol. they stripped out all of the enfeebles...which should be a big part of the game...especially for mages. going to be very weird when they suddenly arent there and then they randomly add them back in after a year...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandm

just like format i changed your words too. that is a very bold statement, what exactly has he said he would d that he is now doing the opposite with

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Since you asked

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Our next class revamps will not alter the fundamentals of each class.

As such, some details will be changed, but there will not be any major changes for classes.

Of course, if there are many demands for change after we release the details of the class revamps, we will look into those demands.

---

Said it here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post437932

I see i leave this post alone a day and its gotten good with the whole enfeebles debate, I find thats good, + didnt yoshi say he wanted to have more crowd control ( CC) for the casters in the game somewhere soem time ago... Al most fells he did a 180 on that removeing some key spells that are CC...

Also this isnt just about spells missing remmeber this is all about the stuff they putting off till 2.0, newest thing is the whole need over greed loot... I really dont see how its so hard to put wepons you get from ifrit fight in loot, or if you allready have the wep put it in loot... they did it for instance raids on all the chests there... I really feel some of these "server issues" wait till 2.0 for it to be fixed is BS, but not all of them like reworking the UI i could see needs to wait. I find that seeking for a party would help a lot, since the system in place now just plan never gets used. So im stuck in uldah waiting all day for shouts to do stuff. When myself + other players coudl be out staying busy to keep us on game. Not stay in town get bored and log. I dont do that If I get to bored i just go farm.

/wait another day to come back to read all this. Keep it up guys let the devs knwo how you feel about some key issues with "Wait till 2.0"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shoopdadoopdoop

Actually...

They're not busy playing Rift or WoW...

They're busy revamping the Market Ward search to make it comparable to an AH, adding a player search and LFG system that actually works, AND revamping classes AND adding a combo system.

...All in one patch.

Let's not sweat the small stuff, guys. It's one spell.
And for all the people saying that WHM/BLM or CON/THM are indistinguishable and convoluted:
One of them has AoE healing, buffing, and a panic button "ultimate attack" presumably called Holy.
One of them has Ancient Magic, convert, and nuking buffs.

That is way more diversity than we had before.
Here is my con/thm action bar as is:
Cure II, Cure III, Sac II, Sac III, prot/shell/ss/ss, blood rite, profundity, dark seal, chainspell, soughspeak, 10m MP regen, assorted debuffs, Aero, Scourge, and Shadowsear/Tornado.

On both classes, it is exactly the same, in exactly the same order. It is literally like I am playing the same class.

---

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile...8_993255_n.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

its like cooking simplified. You cook the ingredients in order. You wont get the same dish by dumping it in all at once or in a diff. order. Depending on how u make the the results may turn out good, it may turn out bad, or it may turn out good and an hour later your Niagara falls in the bathroom.

---

I disagree. Continuing your example, you don't suddenly start trying to separate the yolk from the flour halfway, do you?

I have yet to see someone talks about how useless enfeebling magic was in the first place...This game as it stands requires no strategy at all, it's all about ganging up on a monster eat it then move on to the next. At end game you need a strategy that says get alot of lancers...silly...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheth

I have yet to see someone talks about how useless enfeebling magic was in the first place...This game as it stands requires no strategy at all, it's all about ganging up on a monster eat it then move on to the next. At end game you need a strategy that says get alot of lancers...silly...

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When it comes to talking about Final Fantasy, actual game mechanics, their balance and substance is hardly relevant. All that matters is whether we have our stable Paralyze and Slow spells regardless of utility and importance from a gameplay perspective.

Older games had them, this game must have them. Period. Everything else is unimportant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

When it comes to talking about Final Fantasy, actual game mechanics, their balance and substance is hardly relevant. All that matters is whether we have our stable Paralyze and Slow spells regardless of utility and importance from a gameplay perspective.

Older games had them, this game must have them. Period. Everything else is unimportant.

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Betel I swear you say the truth most of time and I completely agree with what you said. Like I said in another thread I would love for Se to show us an data sheet of how often people actually use Debuff spells, or if they even have them on their bar lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Since you asked



Said it here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post437932

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fundamentally they haven't changed,

GLD before change tank, after tank
MRD before change DD+tank, after DD+tank
LNC before change DD, after DD
PUG before change DD+possible evade tank, after DD possible evade tank
THM before change magic DD+back up healer, after change magic DD+ back up healer
CON before change healer, after change healer
ARC before change nerfed DD, after changer DD(maybe better time will tell maybe not)+ buffer

ok i grant you ARC has changed some what. but it was broken and couldn't stay the way it was, its still DD so they added to it not took away or changed it completely, but in general classes are fundamentally the same.

In the case of mages, I'd have to argue their changes were very fundamental.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

In the case of mages, I'd have to argue their changes were very fundamental.

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that is cool every1 is entitled to their opinion, if you back it up with why you think they have fundamentally changed. you may even change my opinion, but one line with "i have to argue" but then leaving it at that, is no argument/debate really

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandm

to re-build a game and not turn it off is as far as i know, unheard of. one of the main reasons we hear wait till 2.0. is because, this server is rubbish.

they could have said "right we are turning it off for a year, come back in 2013 when we have rebuilt everything" that would have been alot easier than trying to re-build it while we still play it, so this is why you hear wait till 2.0 alot

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This would have probably been the best way to do it, they could have got it out much faster than 2013 having the whole team working on the same project instead of splitting them down the middle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jinko

This would have probably been the best way to do it, they could have got it out much faster than 2013 having the whole team working on the same project instead of splitting them down the middle.

---

Uh-huh.

So completing a project of this scale in <2 years sounds like too long of a timeframe to you? They are practically remaking the entire game, while making a new game takes usually at least 3 years after pre-production that can also take years. They were done with that in 3 months.

The only steps they are skipping in comparison to creating a whole new game are the gear and few area assets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jinko

This would have probably been the best way to do it, they could have got it out much faster than 2013 having the whole team working on the same project instead of splitting them down the middle.

---

i kinda have to disagree with that "too many cooks spoil the broath"

SE is a huge company with huge resources, if it takes 50 ppl working around the clock on V2.0, to be working as fast as they can, then SE could do that, working as fast as they can with the optimal amount of ppl, i.e. 51 can not do the work any faster than 50 (of course 50 is a random number i came up with, i don't really know what the number is)

but i am sure what ever the amount they need to work on the project at full speed is the amount that is working on it. that don't mean they cna't work on the game we are playing at the same time. with another independent team. it would not be the first time they have developed two games at the same time

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandm

that is cool every1 is entitled to their opinion, if you back it up with why you think they have fundamentally changed. you may even change my opinion, but one line with "i have to argue" but then leaving it at that, is no argument/debate really

---

Looking at the Conjurer before these changes, it was the mage that harnessed the power of the elements. While yes it had all the resources necessary to be a good healer, it also had the resources necessary to be offensive. In my opinion, post 1.18 the Conjurer class was offensive with an obvious slant toward support.

Looking at the Thaumaturge before these changes, it was a mage concerned with the balance of life and death known for its Light and Dark powers (Banish and Scourge). Along with its array of draining and enfeebling attacks post 1.18 Thaumaturge was offensive with a slant toward enfeebling.

Thaumaturge advancing to an offensive caster looks to be a fine choice as far as I'm concerned. However, Conjurer had the capacity for both having not only support skills but a full roster of elemental abilities. I consider it a fundamental change to:

1.) Take Conjurer with the capacity to be both offensive and supportive and watering down one facet of its abilities by taking several attacks from its arsenal.
2.) Take Thaumaturge with the capacity to be offensive or an enfeebler and totally eliminate enfeebling and draining skills from it, watering down one facet of its abilities.
3.) Totally remove Scourge and Banish from Thaumaturge and replace them Fire, Ice, and Thunder, while not hampering its offensive capabilities, totally alters the lore of the mage that revolved around the balance of life forces.
4.) Totally remove Sacrifice, the only native heal to Thaumaturge forcing it to cherry pick a skill from another class if it wants to support and possibly to solo. (I say possibly since I don't know how the HP skill it's been given will function).

I've said this many many times, but the Jobs were created as the specialist roles. The problem that I see is the classes, especially in the case of mages, have been overly specialized in the process making the jobs seem redundant.

Although its obviously too late and would never have happened, it would have made more sense for Conjurer to split into White Mage and Black Mage with Thaumaturge advancing into a different mage class.

Another possibility would simply to have, for example, let a Conjurer advance to White Mage and simply lock out elemental attacks when playing the White Mage role and likewise lock Thaumaturge into a specialized set of skills as Blackmage to suit that role. In this scenario Conjurer and Thaumaturge as CLASSES not a jobs would still have the liberty to be offensive or supportive but obviously not overshadow the White Mage or Black Mage which have specialized skills and most likely traits for those roles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Looking at the Conjurer before these changes, it was the mage that harnessed the power of the elements. While yes it had all the resources necessary to be a good healer, it also had the resources necessary to be offensive. In my opinion, post 1.18 the Conjurer class was offensive with an obvious slant toward support.

Looking at the Thaumaturge before these changes, it was a mage concerned with the balance of life and death known for its Light and Dark powers (Banish and Scourge). Along with its array of draining and enfeebling attacks post 1.18 Thaumaturge was offensive with a slant toward enfeebling.

Thaumaturge advancing to an offensive caster looks to be a fine choice as far as I'm concerned. However, Conjurer had the capacity for both having not only support skills but a full roster of elemental abilities. I consider it a fundamental change to:

1.) Take Conjurer with the capacity to be both offensive and supportive and watering down one facet of its abilities by taking several attacks from its arsenal.
2.) Take Thaumaturge with the capacity to be offensive or an enfeebler and totally eliminate enfeebling and draining skills from it, watering down one facet of its abilities.
3.) Totally remove Scourge and Banish from Thaumaturge and replace them Fire, Ice, and Thunder, while not hampering its offensive capabilities, totally alters the lore of the mage that revolved around the balance of life forces.

I've said this many many times, but the Jobs were created as the specialist roles. The problem that I see is the classes, especially in the case of mages, have been overly specialized in the process making the jobs seem redundant.

Although its obviously too late and would never have happened, it would have made more sense for Conjurer to split into White Mage and Black Mage with Thaumaturge advancing into a different mage class.

Another possibility would simply to have, for example, let a Conjurer advance to White Mage and simply lock out elemental attacks when playing the White Mage role and likewise lock Thaumaturge into a specialized set of skills as Blackmage to suit that role. In this scenario Conjurer and Thaumaturge as CLASSES not a jobs would still have the liberty to be offensive or supportive but obviously not overshadow the White Mage or Black Mage which have specialized skills and most likely traits for those roles.

---

i always thought CON would make the better blackmage, if for no other reason than the lore, but it comes as no surprise that CON got white. since 1.18 it has been quite easy to see with all cures going to CON. this does not mean that CON the class is not elementalist it still has its lore steeped in Grid, job is whitemage class is CON 2 different things

for awhile now THM has been the second choice healer when creating a party, this is not going to change after 1.20, THM has been getting ready for its direction as magic DD, which is what it will be after 1.20. ok so the argument is CON can use magic DD spells as well tho. but we don't know the traits of each class, i can quite easy see THM having insane magic attack potency, i wouldn't be surprised if CONs nukes are stronger with a THM, (i know this goes against what we were told about cross class abilities being less affective with other classes. but offensive spells work with magic damage potency)

i believe debuffs were taken away for 2 reasons 1) one they were broken, and nobody used them. 2) they are one school of magic and cry out for their own class, we need more mages and what better spells to give an arcanist. give the team some time to make a new mage with these DEbuffs. and with any luck they will work properly next time we see them.

now the bit of your post i bolded. who said this is not how it is going to work, in my opinion this is exactly how it will work. you put a job stone on you gain abilities but you lose some, we are told class can be for solo but job is only for party. if you add a job stone and gain 5 more abilities but don't lose any how would this stop you from playing solo? if anything it would make solo easyier

My point was, assuming every class wasn't slimmed down to 5 abilities, locking out Conjurer or Thaumaturge abilities when playing as Jobs would have permitted the specialized roles everyone was screaming for without undermining the versatility of Conjurer and Thaumaturge. But now we're going to have to wait and see what this new system is going to be like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

Thats how XIV is, if you've not understood this by now your head needs to rest in a bin.

"Wait till Beta"
"Wait till Open Beta"
"Wait till release"
"Wait till first major patch"
"Wait till ps3 rel....wait 6 months"
"They just replaced dev team, give them time"
"Wait till patch x"
"Wait till patch y"
"Wait till patch z"
"Wait till v2.0"

I 100% Guarantee there will be more waiting after that lol.

---

It's like the opening movie said,

Miqo'te: How long must we wait? I grow weary of the company.
Elezen: The feeling, my dear, is mutual.
Miqo'te: *gasp*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holland

This does not negate the fact the game was not fun to play back then.

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And it will be more fun when mages only have 5 spells?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuxLex

And it will be more fun when mages only have 5 spells?

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any ff game i have played.

blackmage. rotate strongest elemental spell to account for elemental weakness of mob, or use flare, meteor/ultima
whitemage strongest cure. life/raise and holy

looks like 5 spells for a mage class has always been enough for me. i might have been doing thing wrong tho

Are you referring to a single-player game where you not only control the black mage, but 3-4 OTHER characters?
Amazing grandm. You really know how to make a really stupid point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Are you referring to a single-player game where you not only control the black mage, but 3-4 OTHER characters?
Amazing grandm. You really know how to make a really stupid point.

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i can't believe you mr devil are saying i know how to make a stupid arguement

lets have a look at what i said "any FF game i have played"

one question is this the only MMO that is in the final fantasy series?

i do not believe i have ever told you which FF games i have played, (i might have but not that i recall)

That "ANY ff" you put at the very BEGINNING of your post makes me think otherwise.
Stop trying to save face and stop posting pointless crap.

Praising Yoship for everything he does is not contribution. You need to give feedback on things you do not like; otherwise we are just wasting time here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Praising Yoship for everything he does is not contribution. You need to give feedback on things you do not like; otherwise we are just wasting time here.

---

Feedback on what you do like is just as important. Not everyone hates everything you hate about FFXIV.

You're right Amy and I apologize for not stating that.
They should be making a thread about things they like then instead of inciting arguments on every other thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Feedback on what you do like is just as important. Not everyone hates everything you hate about FFXIV.

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What I like is being removed from the game... I think it is valid to comment on that.

As for people who cast only 1 or 2 spells... that's nice, we don't all like playing the same way. Honestly, even in single player FF I cast lots of different spells (you may not but w/e)

I'm playing Final Fantasy II right now... spells I use regularly include Berserk, Shell, Protect, Esuna, Basuna, Cure, Wall, Barrier, Curse, Stun, Scourge, Sap, Fire, Thunder, Blizzard... and I use a lot of the other ones on occasion as well.

In XI, I use a crapton of spells on all my mages...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

That "ANY ff" you put at the very BEGINNING of your post makes me think otherwise.
Stop trying to save face and stop posting pointless crap.

Praising Yoship for everything he does is not contribution. You need to give feedback on things you do not like; otherwise we are just wasting time here.

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i have given feedback on things that i think should be changed, to be honest they are not major thing. a few examples. i want a contrast and brightness control. i want in game team speak. there is nothing more annoying than trying to close down multiple windows, you should be able to close the main menu to close all open windows, instead of closing 4 separate windows before you can close the main menu.

anyway the difference between the feedback i have given and you, is, these are things i have experienced and can give feedback on. not the things i imagine will happen when the new patch hits

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

Thats how XIV is, if you've not understood this by now your head needs to rest in a bin.

"Wait till Beta"
"Wait till Open Beta"
"Wait till release"
"Wait till first major patch"
"Wait till ps3 rel....wait 6 months"
"They just replaced dev team, give them time"
"Wait till patch x"
"Wait till patch y"
"Wait till patch z"
"Wait till v2.0"

I 100% Guarantee there will be more waiting after that lol.

Some things I understand wait for, if someone said "when we getting new zones and housing" fair enough, but enfeebling and other tiny things? okiedokie.

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I'm waiting for 12/20/2011 and a blaster.