Objection to the new adjustment for PGL, they gonna make this class useless in PT.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

If you played FFXI, just think of it like a form of Formless Strikes, hearing it it sounds bad, but in execution it definitely has it's uses.

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I was an 75 MNK in XI and Formless strikes was non-elemental if i recall correctly which is why I am worried about these skills.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I was an 75 MNK in XI and Formless strikes was non-elemental if i recall correctly which is why I am worried about these skills.

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Yeah it's basically the opposite, since FS was to bypass certain defenses, here it's to basically exploit it. We'll have to wait and see but the concept of it I know can work well if they execute it well.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I was an 75 MNK in XI and Formless strikes was non-elemental if i recall correctly which is why I am worried about these skills.

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Indeed, it was non-elemental and I do foresee the possible issues with elemental strikes. On the other hand, it's all situational like many things in the game, so I'm interested to see what it can be applied to.

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Originally Posted by Altanas

What if I was kiting mobs using the evasion stance and ran out of MP :(

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You write in the party chat: "Bard, MP! Hurry!"

Im going to wait and see how effective this class is going to be, its hard to decide from the small information we got from all the classes. What I do know is the current PUG is both "useless" & boring. The changes planned for the pug/mnk is looking really fun and innovative to me. Im looking forward to try out the pug class at 1.20.

Lets give them feedback of how strong/weak the class is, after the patch please.

Also mount possitioning? How the hell is that going to look like?:)

Delete PGL and give us THF!

If Yoshi rebalanced the classes properly, then PGL/MNK should be the highest dps class 1v1. MRD's gig is its AoE lawnmower, LNC's deal is its range and piercing-AoE attacks, and PGL's gig is taking a single monster head on and rampaging all over its face. Problem was that although Victimize II was in fact stronger than Doomspike II (only marginally), Victimize II had an absurd recast timer and damage that could not match the slightly weaker WS that could be AoE, and spammed.

Even without using any of the MP abilities, PGL/MNK should be equal in dps to a LNC/DRG just regular without any MP abilities but blow the LNC/DRG away against a single target (like Ifrit or main boss) when it turns on the MP. I'm hoping that the MP abilities don't become a crutch and PGL joins the Blue Mage club from XI (If you aren't familar with the Blue Mage club, it was the club formed after everyone realized BLU was just a realllly shitty DD after its MP ran out. It could blow the parser away the first two fights but once it had to let its MP recoup it got out-DDed by a PLD)


However this plays out though, we really shouldn't be freaking out until after the patch comes. The abilities list was pretty vague and was intended to give us a good idea what the new concept for the classes will be. We will need to see all of the classes new actions in action before we can form any kind of educated concerns/suggestions.

PGL sounds like a good class to me, able to drain all their MP and abilities quickly to vastly increase DoT. Think of it like a zerg job.

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Originally Posted by neizero

Delete PGL and give us THF!

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Better yet, keep PGL and give us THF! Been waiting a while for it. I miss my green AF armor. :(

hmmmm didnt read all through but to me it looks more like a crowd control, or 2nd tank or something. :|

I have 2 questions for the peeps who are always worried about not getting PT's for certain content....

What kind of Elitist snob LS are you in that they would refuse to do any content with you?

or

What kind of jerk are you that you can't get in a friendly LS to do stuff with?

From what I can tell, the monk is controlled burst damage. Controlled burst meaning you, the player, can turn on when you want to spike your damage. You use your MP using abilities to jump your DPS and probably do more damage then any other class.

The uncontrolled burst damage job would be the dragoon. Dragoon, as Yoshi put it, does high crit damage. So high burst, but you can't control it... it comes when you randomly roll a crit.

In short, the monk will probably be a a better dps class when played by a player that understands when to unload their MP for high damage.

Just how I see them, can't be sure until they come out.

I'm in wait-and-see mode currently. The changes don't sound that bad, I'd like to test it before I say something.
As it was already mentioned by someone, at the moment PGL doesn't really have a defined role in a party. DD? LNC/MRD do way better, since most of our high DD skills are situational and/or have a high cooldown, even our lv50 skill can only be used after evading an attack. The evasion is not really high enough to tank efficiently either...

Basically, it looks more of a jack-of-all-trades to me now, so I'd like to see how the new setup will work out.
Burst DD, if it's indeed going to be one, sounds actually more interesting than being a 1v1 class

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Originally Posted by Alise

Most of people who play PGL would think of either it as evasion-tanking or that it will go into Dps route one way or another. However,From what I see from the description and skill list of the new PGL/MOK are going to have, the define role for PGL is in pretty bad state, come on' we know that in MMO game it is better to be good at one way and not jack of all-trade like this.

Here see what it can do : "little attack skill" "little dodge skill" "little stun skill" "little debuff skill" "Need a lot of MP" in MMO, this look bad... <_<;

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You're definitely overreacting. They have abilities to haste themselves, boost their attack, completely lock down an enemy, use formless strikes, use additional attacks, and even if some of this requires MP, they have a Combo that lets them restore it!

Wait till you see it perform before you decide it can't work.

Love the changes. It's a lot more interesting than having just a 3rd regular DD job.

My only concern is MP but at this point we have no idea how much MP the skills will use and we also have no idea how much MP our new skills (as well as cross-skills) will restore. Traits haven't been released yet, so for all we know, we may have a trait that adds mp healing to second wind.

We just can't make assumptions about how fast we'll run out of MP at this point. We can only decide if we like the general concept of what they're proposing and the stances idea (which if you'll remember was what they first advertised to us on the website) along with how the skills combo has me very excited to play patch 1.20.

Also if you want to talk about PUG being useless...we were already kind of useless since a large majority of our attacks are counters which just aren't very useful in large party situations (yes even with taunt).

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

You're definitely overreacting. They have abilities to haste themselves, boost their attack, completely lock down an enemy, use formless strikes, use additional attacks, and even if some of this requires MP, they have a Combo that lets them restore it!

Wait till you see it perform before you decide it can't work.

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As i said, that would be too late. And no, with all the MMO trend, if they balance it right, any class that can do everything = the class that is unwanted in PT.

the route for PGL as current plan = either over power or being unwanted.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Also if you want to talk about PUG being useless...we were already kind of useless since a large majority of our attacks are counters which just aren't very useful in large party situations (yes even with taunt).

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Exactly the True, and you don't want it to ever stop being useless?

I don't know what is SE standard to repeat the problem ever and ever, they said each class will have their clear definition and role. However, clearly that PGL doesn't have one. It end up being 3rd rate tank, 2nd rate DD. and 3rd rate debuff.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Burst DD, if it's indeed going to be one, sounds actually more interesting than being a 1v1 class

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From classes description and abilities list, it look like best burst damage will go into ARC. PGL fire mode for damage is increasing speed., and most attack are about counter that inflect effect.

Mnk will probably be the highest Dmg dealers over time. So best Dmg in Boss Battles, but first to die as a trade off.


Most likely they will have to time their MP-draining abilities right and then bard regen for a bit. If they do AND manage to live through the whole battle, will prevail as top dps.

DRG will most likely be a burst DPS, biggest numbers but not in the long term. They get the advantage of survival through distance, armor and 'jump'. (PVP destroyer for sure)

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Originally Posted by Alise

As i said, that would be too late. And no, with all the MMO trend, if they balance it right, any class that can do everything = the class that is unwanted in PT.

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Right. I mean, no one ever wanted Druids in the party in WoW. That is, the one class that could literally fill any roll in a group (Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, or Caster DPS). Nor did anyone ever want Paladins (Tank, Healer, Melee DPS). Or Shamans (Healer, Melee DPS, Caster DPS). Or Death Knights (Tank, Melee DPS). No, those classes were never wanted in parties, ever. Nope. Not a chance.

I think that fills my sarcasm quota.

People should also keep in mind that all evasion based skills are completely useless to anyone but a tank while in a party. The Puglist should not have hate long enough to use these skills. As it stands right now, in 1.19, Haymaker and Jarring Strike are only used in Solo combat unless at Gladiator or Marauder has them cross classes. After 1.20 these skills are set to be CLass specific. This essentially makes them unusable.

I think it all relies on how that MP drain is versus damage increase. If its a uses up fast but does bookoo damage situation pug just became the DD around(because add a bard to do it forever). If its pretty decent while on and a slow mp drain its not bad either. However it could be fast and nominal and that would be bad.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

This essentially makes them unusable.

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If PGL is able to tank on par with MRD and GLA, then they'll still be usable.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If PGL is able to tank on par with MRD and GLA, then they'll still be usable.

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The only things we have that are indicative of tanking are the earth and wind striking modes as well as Featherfoot. We have absolutely no enmity abilities, and, unless it's an unannounced change, we still don't have access to the Touch of Rage materia either. With all that in mind, I'm not expecting to do more than off tank for the foreseeable future.

I don't even want Pugilist to be a tank, honestly.

I want them to be a solid, competent DD class. And worries about MP usage aside, it looks like that's exactly what they will be. I just hope they don't screw up on the elemental business and the MP draining.

Everyone is talking about them in one mob fight scenarios. This delves into the tanking argument as well. People are trying to say "Is GLA better than MRD for tanking? Will PLD be better than WAR for tanking?"

The argument is irrelevant as they are designed for two different types of tanking. MRD/WAR for multiple mobs, GLA/PLD for single mobs. The argument is similar for PGL.

In a single, one target fight, you may want a LNC over a PGL because chances are the PGL may not have a chance to use it's heavy evasion required abilties.

But if you're fighting multiple targets, the PGL could easliy take the attention of one and tank it while DD'ing the main mob (in an EXP party) or simple fighting it one on one (like trash mobs in a boss fight.).

The PGL/MNK could then use the evasion from the mob that it's tanking in order to use the evasion abilities it has on the main target, even if the main target isn't attacking the PGL/MNK.

This opens up ideal set ups, which I know people don't particularly like, but it does make most classes useful.

I'm Pro-PLD but even I will admit that MRD/WAR will most likely be best for multiple target situations. Just as I'm sure many LNC/DRG would admit that their survivability doesn't really allow them to perform as well in multi-target situations compared to single target engagments, making PGL more ideal.

TL;DR version:

One Target:
GLA/PLD
LNC/DRG

Multiple Targets:
MRD/WAR
PGL/MNK

Use the best job suited to how many mobs you plan on fighting.

pug being my main and atm only battle job im realy torn atm but also a little hopeful after reading all the great and positive comments and feed back so far. I will admit i was more than a little discouraged with the way the ifrit battles have become a job spacific battle to be most effective and i have yet to get into a single pt tacking him down due to not have lnc mrd or cnj lvd, although the lock-down ability the mnk gets looks to be very useful in the moggle battle. I started the pug to be a single target dps so im just hoping they dont take that role away, so in the mean time ill wait to see what happens in 1.20. TBH the biggest hope I have so far is they havnt released any info about the trait skills yet which as i understand it will have as much to do with the class as the active ability's.

I'll wait and see how the Moogle Primal comes out and kick our arse over.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

We have absolutely no enmity abilities

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PGL Abl. 3: Temporarily focuses the target's attacks on you. Sounds like an enmity ability to me.

Without testing the mechanics of the new PUG/MNK abilities, I can say for certain that I have a strong opinion on how awesome and/or bad they are.

Seriously though - if you have a mob that changes it's weaknesses on the fly, going from weak to physical to weak to magic, MNK will always be able to damage it by adding some fire/earth to it's punches.

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Originally Posted by Alise

My goal in this thread isn't about complain, but just trying to make this noticeable.

Only intention here is to notify dev team that you are repeating the same mistake by making unwanted class. If think have this consider in their mind already, no matter what happen in 1.20 I will be please enough that "I had done my best in telling them". I have to worry because 1.18 1.19 and seem 1.20 gonna repeat PGL unwanted title.

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well its obviously not an unwanted class if almost everyone agrees they are looking forward to trying it out. I mean I really dont know why people get so worked up over things they HAVENT EVEN TRIED YET, lol. As far as the mp thing goes, I really wouldnt get worked up over that, we dont even know at what rate its used up so just relax and wait lol.

I personally love PGL and I'm interested in seeing how MNK works in this. could be good, could be bad. But I'm not jumping to the conclusion that its an "unwanted class" now. And if people haven't noticed yet, if something bombs in game after its released, and enough people voice how they don't like it, SE tends to change it so don't freak out about it.

I'm a 50 pgl. We're already basically useless, any changes are welcome right now.

Right now, there's no reason to take a pgl over a lancer really. If anything the changes will make us more potent.

Added frontline debuffing for flavour doesn't bother me.

End of the day, you don't know what new content they're adding. you're basing it around content that already exists, and we're already average to sucky at.

TL;DR Stop crying. Christ this forum is whiny.

Accoding to the actions list, the only evasion based ability that isn't getting axed is Jarring Strike, ie PGL WS 9. There isn't another evasion counter WS so no Haymaker at all, can't be class exclusive if it no longer exists. If the name/animation are reused at all, it'll be as one of the many standard weaponskills so whether you are tanking or not is not an issue.

Simian Thrash, assuming the name and animation are reused, is being converted into a normal WS without an evasion requirement that is even part of a combo, PGL WS 3. The text mentions low damage and it being toned down a little was to be expected with the requirement being removed, it could still have pretty decent potential. Either way, PGL will retain 1 evasion counter (the weakest, utility one) so complaining about the evasion requirements at this point is a waste of time.

Where there is legitimate cause for concern is in the the balance between the following elements: base damage (unbuffed), effectiveness of the damage boost from kicks/elemental modes, rate of MP consumption of those modes and effectiveness of the MP recovery tools. Balancing these elements properly would be a challenge for anyone but given the current, very poor compensation offered by Featherfoot for the MP costs of Light Strike and Pummel, being worried about potential issues is natural especially since cross-class MP abilities don't seem likely to be as effective as Siphon MP.

If base damage over time is close to comparable with other classes, then the buffs can't be too strong without breaking balance unless the MP cost is extremely high. If base damage is significantly lower and doing acceptable damage requires having the buffs active the majority of the time, the cost needs to be balanced so that this can be achieved. You also have to take into account the presence or lack of a bard to give refresh, whether the refresh (MP) song will stack with the regain (TP) and accuracy songs, how practical separating songs will be if you can't just stack them all, etc.

All in all a fairly complex balancing act and expecting the devs to get it right the first time is highly unrealistic, but expecting them to get it horribly wrong and let it remain horribly wrong forever after is also ridiculous. While certain things about SE haven't changed quite as much as they'd like us to believe, denying the change in their attitude when it comes to addressing glaring balance issues is just ridiculous, if anything at this point they've been overcompensating. They realize the game will fail if they don't achieve interesting and balanced results, it might take a few steps to get there but they are actually willing to take those steps as problems come up instead of the early XI attitude of pretending there was nothing wrong for years and then nerfing or buffing certain elements with the delicate subtlety of a jackhammer without even acknowledging that there was a problem at all.

Personally I'm pretty stoked to try PGL/MNK out after 1.21. I never took thf higher then 37 and monk never above 18 (on my 3 accounts) in FF11. However, once new jobs come out I'm interested in giving ones I did not have an interest in before another chance.

This: PGL Abl. 2 Makes your next attack a crit when executed from behind the target. Traits may trigger INT bonus.

and this: MNK Abl. 1 Temporarily increases attack speed.

are what swayed my decision. After seeing how useful Blindeside II is on Ifrit, and how simply 1 or 2 key abilities can make or break a class (SATA - THF, Utsusemi - NIN, Souleater - DRK) in FF11. I'll just wait to see how things are once they come out. I already know what I want to play. I'm just curious to see if I can get a 2nd chance to play classes I never dug to deep into in FF11, but in FF14.

pgl is already useless. Any dev attention at all is a good thing.

Bring back MNK guard and make players skill it up to be useful.

I think you could use Taunt to force the enemy to hit you for MP recovery when you're not the tank, especially since Taunt itself doesn't give you any "real" enmity as far as I know. The real problem is that taunt currently doesn't last very long and it *might* need to have its recast time lowered to do this consistently. There's that MP recovery or drain WS that PGL is getting that might be useful, too.

I have been playing PGL with some of my friends' side classes, and having a lot of fun with it. The stances are how I feel PGL should have been in the first place (based on the original class concepts they showed us years ago) so I'm excited to take it up later.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

PGL Abl. 3: Temporarily focuses the target's attacks on you. Sounds like an enmity ability to me.

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Nope. That's just like Taunt is now: makes the enemy attack you, does next to nothing for enmity. Well, Taunt at the moment is slightly better than Disorient, but Disorient is definitely the better of the two when you consider cooldowns.

As long as they make elemental weaknesses more apparent, Pugilist/Monk sounds like it'll be a great, fast elemental melee attacker.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

As long as they make elemental weaknesses more apparent, Pugilist/Monk sounds like it'll be a great, fast elemental melee attacker.

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^ This. We simply don't know what's going to happen till it's implemented and experiencing it. They may do what they did to FFXI in...2004/2005 and apply a Magical patch, which fixed (or nerfed in the words of manaburners) magic resistances and calculations.

So elemental fists of fury could likely be the best thing to happen to battle strategy for all we know.

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Originally Posted by Alise

Exactly the True, and you don't want it to ever stop being useless?

I don't know what is SE standard to repeat the problem ever and ever, they said each class will have their clear definition and role. However, clearly that PGL doesn't have one. It end up being 3rd rate tank, 2nd rate DD. and 3rd rate debuff.

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What is this...I don't even.

All classes currently have debuff skills according to this class redesign so lets knock that one on the head (p.s. they all have debuffs currently too).

There are other DD jobs with tanking skills as well (MRD) that doesnt make them a second rate DD now does it?

My actual point was, compared to what we have currently *anything* would have been an improvement but if you read the rest of my post I actually described what I liked about the new PGL. PGL appears to be a frontline elemental attacker that can change stance depending on the situation, that appears to be its role. Kick+haste+fire = punch the jesus out of the enemy, oh I pulled too much hate, switch to earth or wind stance.

It looks great and I can't wait to try it out. If the MP restore skills and the MP consumed are both reasonable then the MP element will just add more strategy/skill in how we play our class.

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Originally Posted by Alise

As i said, that would be too late. And no, with all the MMO trend, if they balance it right, any class that can do everything = the class that is unwanted in PT.

the route for PGL as current plan = either over power or being unwanted.

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Too late for what? I've seen nothing that couldn't be easily balanced if there's a problem.

Making use of the MP bar can give Pugilists and Monks an advantage over classes and jobs that don't. MP doesn't tap into your TP resources, so you literally have two sources of power rather than just one. If you can restore your MP through weaponskills, cross-class abilities, and spoony Bards, you're a much more effective player than someone who only has TP at their command.