Request : In Stormblood, allow us to gear without tomestones

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sophia EX requires i235. Without any tome gear, you don't have access to anything above the current EX dungeon, even with a Nidhogg's weapon.

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You are indeed correct, I was reading the requirement for Sophia normal instead of extreme. My mistake.

It does add more weight to your argument. *Contemplates* I disagree with boosting dungeon loot to uncapped tome gear as it would almost entirely invalidate Alex Normal and the future tier of VA but having them closer to 230 would be ideal to allow people into Alex Normal for the current tier. Between the 230 loot you get from the dungeon and the 230 / 240 pieces you make via Lore tomestone from getting dungeon loot, it wouldn't be hard to get to the necessary 230 to get into Alex Normal.

Make relic armour a thing. I'm getting so bored of this shitting on gear every 3 months kind of thing. I know other players love it but I personally don't. It promotes boredom and too much of it. I would love to see alternate hard questlines that make us test our strength against near impossible feats for our gear which can then be used to beat savage.

Tomes/weekly tokens were originally meant to allow non-raiders to (mostly) keep up with raiders. Instead, they're being used to time gate the entire playerbase, so into the trash they go!

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

it would almost entirely invalidate Alex Normal and the future tier

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Why ? Does it invalidate Creator normal that you can fully equip in Lore gear ?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

it wouldn't be hard to get to the necessary 230 to get into Alex Normal

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It's already not hard to gain tomestones or run Mhach.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As for the ilvl of dungeons, I'd say EX dungeons at i235. With a ring Midas ring (220) and a Nidhogg's weapon (235), it would put put you at 233, to enter Creator. If you could have two rings, having i230 in EX dungeon would be enough.

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Miscalculation on my part. With a full 230 set, a 220 ring and a 235 weapon/shield, the average ilvl is exactly 230, so it's enough to enter Creator. :)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why ? Does it invalidate Creator normal that you can fully equip in Lore gear ?

It's already not hard to gain tomestones or run Mhach.

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I will admit I mistyped this when I said "uncapped tome gear" because I meant "non-upgraded Scrips gear" and was thinking too fast and being able to get i260 on the fly.

I've pretty much re-read your OP again just to make sure I don't make another stupid error (lol, I'm good at this!) and will admit that I do like your idea when you consider it's all about the unlimited tomestones.

I think where you're meeting resistance is the fact most people are (wrongfully, myself included) assuming you're talking about giving away Scrips-ilvl gear when you're actually talking about Lore gear, and Eso gear the patch cycle before, etc.

Though I will admit, if you're saying "It's not to hard to gain tomestones" why even bring up the suggestion to an alternative then? It just seems to undermine your own argument at that point and indicating it's just a waste for Dev's to make such a minor change. [edit] N/M, I know what you're going to aim for so I'll just leave it at that.

Good luck with your request.

If the idea is to offer more methods to gain high tier gear, I'm all for it. I've neen asking for the Devs to spread out BiS gear options for some time, but letting players of all skill ranges and content preferences the option to pick their grind poison would make a huge difference in the long run.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Not to be rude but world quests are awful please keep them far away from this game.

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World quests are easy and the rewards feel substantial from them, they're the equivalent of a quick daily.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Make relic armour a thing. I'm getting so bored of this shitting on gear every 3 months kind of thing. I know other players love it but I personally don't. It promotes boredom and too much of it. I would love to see alternate hard questlines that make us test our strength against near impossible feats for our gear which can then be used to beat savage.

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Relic armor! I'd love that! Just have the look of it change with upgrades and this would be a stellar option for gearing up.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, I'll gain tomestones, but I'm bored of running <insert_dungeon_name_here> for tomestones over and over. I'd love to have a clear goal when I enter one specific dungeon, sometimes. And now, apart from the first clear, there's no reason.

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But then you have to run that same dungeon over and over again, most likely MORE times, for the CHANCE at getting your RNG-based gear. I don't see how it is much different, or even better???

I like the system we have now in FFXIV.

Blizzard did this with Legion, got rid of any kind of point system (tome system). All your gear now comes from random dungeon drops and random world quests. Their OF has a ton of people complaining about RNG how they don't get the gear they wanted to drop.

If they had no tome system in FFXIV it would take so much longer to gear up and frustrate people that they did X dungeon so many times and their piece hasn't dropped. While with the tome system we know how many times we have to run the dungeon before getting a piece of gear.

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Originally Posted by Zari

But then you have to run that same dungeon over and over again, most likely MORE times, for the CHANCE at getting your RNG-based gear. I don't see how it is much different, or even better???

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Basically this would happen when you get rid of points and then throw in RNG you on average will probably end up running a dungeon way more times then you would of with the tome system. It is possible you can get super lucky get your wanted drop the first time but most wouldn't be that lucky probably have countless runs under their belt before they got a drop.

I like the idea of dungeon level items matching up with uncapped tome level gear. :D

If anything they should add challenge modes to dungeons that lets you scale up the difficulity, mobs have more HP do more damage, gain more mechanics. If you beat a dungeon on a higher level then you get higher ilvl drops.

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Originally Posted by Averax

World quests are easy and the rewards feel substantial from them, they're the equivalent of a quick daily.

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World Quests were fine until you realized that the only way to get an upgrade from them was if it was maximum Titanforged. That and you needed to grind 25+ a day if keeping up with reputations. I appreciate the variety but the reputation made it maximum grind. That and I've never gotten a maximum titanforged anything. Ever.

It would be nice, though, if more FATEs were in line with the Vidrolfnir(sic) chain in Churning Mists that drops the randomized belt for helping people gear up to early dungeon levels. I remember what a pain in the butt it was to qualify for Alwaysreap and Fractal on HW launch. Or maybe world bosses ala Odin/Behemoth/Coeurlregina that dropped actually useful gear.

Removing weekly currency gear entirely though, no thanks. Being hostage entirely to sub-par crafted gear and lock-out RNG is not fun at all.

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Originally Posted by Averax

World quests are easy and the rewards feel substantial from them, they're the equivalent of a quick daily.

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Soooo spend some time fighting a pointless monster for the chance to get theoretically useful loot for my main?

Eugh... No thanks, Monster Hunter is over there. The Desire Sensor can die in a fire. >< Having some form of guaranteed useful loot is always better.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What could be interesting in Stormblood is to lessen the ilvl gap between tomes and dungeon gear to cater to two types of players at the same time. You don't mind doing the same roulette over and over for a 100% reward ? Tome gear is for you.

You like going into a specific instance to gain one particular piece of gear at random ? Dungeons are the way to go.

Everybody wins.

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The only risk I see here is that people with too much free time get geared up twice as fast, which depending on how quickly the devs want content cleared would be a good or a bad thing.

RNG is a terrible idea

I honestly think there's a fair bit of benefit to time-gating, in that it allows easier content tuning and doesn't further force absurd hours of grinding upon any would-be raider. That said, it'd be nice if Stormblood at least found more ways to accomplish that than the exact same tomestone system we'll have seen for 5 years. If the weekly farm seemed a slogging grind, imagine if there were uncapped non-raid sources of gear that you'd need to farm for ilvl (or item weight) before you're even allowed entry into the 'up and coming' raid groups.

More importantly than that for me though, I'd like to see some real alt support. The whole "all classes on one character" aspect does little when only one job can realistically be maxed at a time during progression. In my opinion, gearing alternates during progression should not be gated any more than catch-up would be a patch later, if even that. I really don't care if another player with more time can bring every one of his jobs from 240 to 243 in the first week of a new tier while I can only move one job to that point. It's his time, and it's not forcing any extra grinding out of me just to be invited to a raid.

As for your exact suggestion, the main issue I see with this is that where in a tombstone system, you could feasibly make a far larger range of (up-scaled) dungeons relevant for meeting your quota, making the dungeon gear relevant in and of itself would make those runs last only as long as RNG requires, and it again comes with all the annoyances that RNG usually carries. Granted, you could have two modes for dungeons, and maybe even add on scaled difficulty settings, so on and so forth to give you seemingly less grindy options for getting gear, means that require less time but more skill, etc., which would certainly be a benefit. How much of one, I'm not certain.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You already can. It's called raiding, and to an extent, crafting. I think you forgot about crafted gear in your OP, because even half a set of crafted gear would set you way above the requirement for midas.

Sure, you need tomestones to be best in slot, but only hardcore players will fault you for skipping it entirely.

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But still having a dungeon drops as valid alternative would be awesome option, i personally loved to run hm dungeons years ago just to get pre-raid gear. But if they add this option then we might need to have silghtly harder dungeons so it doesnt make normal raid and crafted gear obsolate or the drop-rates should be very low if they stay as easy as they are now.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

EDIT : Since some people seems to have trouble grasping exactly what tome gear I refer too, I'll clarify it here. The idea is that EX dungeons would drop gear the same ilvl as uncapped tome gear. i.e Neverreap/Fractal would have dropped i170, Antitower/City, i200, Xelphatol/Gubal, i230. The goal is not to easily gain more powerful items, but just having another way of unlocking normal raid (So, i170 for Gordias, 200 for Midas, etc...), without having to farm tomestones, which can be boring. And, of course, the tome system would remain, so that you're not forced to rely on RNG drop. I don't really know where to put odd-patches EX dungeons, though...

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I presume you meant 250/260 for Xelphatol, otherwise why would I brother spamming the new dungeons and praying to RNGesus when I could just run ARF ten times and pick up almost an entire set of lore gear guaranteed? If you did mean the higher ilvl, people would simply farm dungeons within the first few weeks then never touch them again. Tomestones and weekly caps exist to prevent spamming. Crafted gear is meant to be that bridge. If people aren't willing to wait, they can use gil to skip some of the grind. Sure, scripture gear is better, but you can do all of The Creator in just ilvl 250 if you really wanted to push it.

I like the system that we have.

You can get your Gear from Raids, Stones, Crafts and Dungeons.
So there are many ways to get something :)


From the OP it sounds like, he want to get the best Gear very fast and very easy.

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Originally Posted by Zari

But then you have to run that same dungeon over and over again, most likely MORE times, for the CHANCE at getting your RNG-based gear. I don't see how it is much different, or even better???

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It doesn't have to be better, just different. And it is different because with a RNG system, if you don't want to run old content, you don't have to, without really hindering your progression.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Blizzard did this with Legion, got rid of any kind of point system (tome system).

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The issue here is not to use a RNG system, but to remove a token system. I understand the appeal of such a system. After years of FFXI and months of FFXIV 1.x, I really loved how gearing was not tied to RNG at all (Except primal weapons). But any system can become boring at one point, so why not add another one ? That way, depending on your mood, you'll gear one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The only risk I see here is that people with too much free time get geared up twice as fast, which depending on how quickly the devs want content cleared would be a good or a bad thing.

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Considering the first Relic Nexus was obtained the day after it was introduced, unless you lock rewards, you'll always have people geared very fast.
Especially if crafted gear is still a thing and rich people buy it the very first day.

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Originally Posted by Derio

RNG is a terrible idea

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No, it's not. You don't like it, but some people are more of the gambling type. Keep the two systems, and each player can chose its way.
Ametrine sumed up the idea very well :

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but letting players of all skill ranges and content preferences the option to pick their grind poison would make a huge difference in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As for your exact suggestion, the main issue I see with this is that where in a tombstone system, you could feasibly make a far larger range of (up-scaled) dungeons relevant for meeting your quota, making the dungeon gear relevant in and of itself would make those runs last only as long as RNG requires, and it again comes with all the annoyances that RNG usually carries.

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Again, the tomestones (Please, stop calling it tombstones...) system would stay in place for those who like it. Yes, RNG is annoying for some, and running daily roulettes is annoying for others...but at launch, the only option you have to start your max level progression is tome farming.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I presume you meant 250/260 for Xelphatol, otherwise why would I brother spamming the new dungeons and praying to RNGesus when I could just run ARF ten times and pick up almost an entire set of lore gear guaranteed?

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No, I mean 230, or, at best, 235. If you prefer to run ARF ten times, that's your choice...personally, I'd kill my character if I have to ever set foot again in Nerverreap or ARF...And hey, if I'm lucky, I could gain a full set by running Xelphatol and Gubal two or three times each. Considering i230 gear is only a stepping stone to enter Creator, you and I would still have to replace our sets right away.

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Originally Posted by Campi

You can get your Gear from Raids, Stones, Crafts and Dungeons.

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No, you can't. At launch, we probably won't have crafted gear, like we didn't in 2.0 and 3.0. Dungeons gear has no impact except on dungeons where you obtain them (i.e, duties you can already clear without the gear), and you can't even enter raid without a full set of tome gear, since the minimum ilvl is way higher than anything dungeons can drop.

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Originally Posted by Campi

From the OP it sounds like, he want to get the best Gear very fast and very easy.

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Seriously, do people really forget how to read ? When did uncapped-tome gear become the best gear ? When did tome farming become hard ? When did RNG become fast ?

Already burned my daily post limit...I hate this system

More ways to gear is always good, but, with moderation. Is not like got fully geared on day 1. Imagine if you can gear 260 Sricpture equivalent in few days. Just will broke the entire game.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Imagine if you can gear 260 Sricpture equivalent in few days. Just will broke the entire game.

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Seriously...
Where did I ask to be able to gear at will with the corresponding ilvl of a weekly locked type of reward ?

For this, we have 24-man raid...

We don't like tomes, it's because we are doing it ALONE, & it's repetitive
Whatever method you use, the result will be the same,

Ask yourself, will you play a single player game over & over & over again?
or, in CS：GO， do you like to play with bots everyday? no
Will you play with your schoolmates everyday? yes!

the core value of a MMO, is "playing with others" , playing with human, with friends, is fun & lasting & memorable
XIV needs XI/XIV1.2x type party contents

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, I mean 230, or, at best, 235. If you prefer to run ARF ten times, that's your choice...personally, I'd kill my character if I have to ever set foot again in Nerverreap or ARF...And hey, if I'm lucky, I could gain a full set by running Xelphatol and Gubal two or three times each. Considering i230 gear is only a stepping stone to enter Creator, you and I would still have to replace our sets right away.

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Fair enough. I would rather the guaranteed method, but given ilvl 230 gear is old nowadays. It wouldn't hurt any. I imagine they keep it slightly weaker to keep people doing ARF because its story though.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Fair enough. I would rather the guaranteed method, but given ilvl 230 gear is old nowadays. It wouldn't hurt any. I imagine they keep it slightly weaker to keep people doing ARF because its story though.

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did they add the 235 gear to diadem recently? Im not sure, i still havent touched it since they nerfed the drop rates back then

The gearing system is so boring. I can't even get myself to run dungeons because its a huge waist of time. The gear you get from dungeons only gives i225 huh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ why? But you get tomes that will give you i260 gear? What is the logic in that? Seriously, the gearing system needs a serious over hall. 3.4 just dropped and all I got so far was a pair of i260 boots for DRG with 200 tomes to spare and the only reason I had enough was because i was farming PoTD for that new hair cut...... Here's the kicker I have only ran the new 3.4 dungeons once and that was only for story purposes. I picked up the latest raid quest and haven't even bothered to try it. Instead of doing all the new dungeons I would rather spend my time leveling up an alt ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ which is something you do later on in patches.

Dont get me wrong the new dungeons are gorgeous and fun to run but the only incentive to run it is for tomes and to be honest i cant stand this roller coaster ride. We seriously need a new system for gearing.

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Originally Posted by LiaShan

We don't like tomes, it's because we are doing it ALONE, & it's repetitive

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Every MMO is repetitive at endgame, you can't really avoid that.
But doing roulettes or running specific dungeon is not the same thing. Right now, if you want to farm uncapped tome rapidly, your best option is doing all your roulettes.
With the expert roulette, you might run on the dungeon you don't like (They both are ok in 3.4, but Neverreap was a real pain to do compared to Fractal, Antitower was slow as hell with all the artificial gating, etc...), with the low level roulette, you have such a wide range of duties that it can take 10 minutes to 40, same for trial, etc...

With an additionnal system, I could go to the EX dungeon I like to gather all drops from here (With RNG, yes, but it would be my choice), while still farming some tomes (Less than with the roulette) to complete my set and avoid the drops from the EX dungeon I don't like.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Seriously, the gearing system needs a serious over hall.

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Yes, it would help it. My idea is just something that doesn't break any balnce and very easy to put in the game.
If they decide to make Eureka a wide zone with HNM where you can earn gear Abyssea style, I'll rejoice too :)

[QUOTE=Reynhart;3908418]No, I didn't forget about them. When 3.0 launched, you had no crafted gear that could grant access to Gordias.
the 180 crafted gear was on the same patch whnen they added savage, at least I think it was, and if you dont wanna do them yourself or buy them....well go to your tomestone grind that you like.

@Reynhart

You probably need to bold + italicize + super size the idea you're only looking at i230 gear and even then it might be slightly missed *Coughs softly*

With that being said, here's a thought for you too. The RNG and token system already exists in this game - Savage Raid gives you an RNG chance to get loot for that clear and a page (token) for trade in for a gear on the same floor. So... not like what you're requesting for is much different from that principal - Unlimited tome grind with unlimited shots of getting similar ilvl gear via RNG.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I don't really know where to put odd-patches EX dungeons, though...

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For the current tier - i250. Make the odd patch dungeons require the same entry ilvl as Creator and be an alternative to Creator to assist with the "catch up" patch. Since the gear is different the itemization may be different too and thus give people a different option for pre-Savage BiS. At this point in time they should also remove the weekly lockout on Creator Story too (I believe that's what they did for Midas story at 3.3)

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

the 180 crafted gear was on the same patch whnen they added savage, at least I think it was, and if you dont wanna do them yourself or buy them....well go to your tomestone grind that you like.

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So I'd have to wait two weeks before even entering Gordias Normal...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

With that being said, here's a thought for you too. The RNG and token system already exists in this game - Savage Raid gives you an RNG chance to get loot for that clear and a page (token) for trade in for a gear on the same floor. So... not like what you're requesting for is much different from that principal - Unlimited tome grind with unlimited shots of getting similar ilvl gear via RNG.

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If you want to draw another similarity, just look at EX primals. A chance of dropping a weapon while still getting tokens for a weapon with the same ilvl (Of course, since it's the same weapon :p)
So, they could very well put the same system in dungeons...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

For the current tier - i250. Make the odd patch dungeons require the same entry ilvl as Creator and be an alternative to Creator to assist with the "catch up" patch.

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Yes, they could do that. It wouldn't have the same impact since you're already supposed to have every access with 3.4 loot, but, why not.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

You probably need to bold + italicize + super size the idea you're only looking at i230 gear and even then it might be slightly missed *Coughs softly*

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Yeah, I think I'll do that...

How about giving us Relic armor that can only be powered up in eureka?

I think some people misunderstand the raiding for gear aspect. Let me give you an example of what I believe would be a better compromise.

Yes, SOME kind of tome gear should be available to those who like it. Even make it on par with "raiding" gear. But don't have the raiding gear be savage level. Not everyone can do that for various reasons. Don't get me wrong, the hardest stuff should have some of the best drops, but the normal mode versions of the current savages should have dropped gear and not their tokens.

People say the gear is dealing with rng, but so was that token system. You wernt guaranteed the tokens and you had to fight people for em. THATS GEAR. Just in a round about way. In fact that was more difficult because you needed 2-4 pieces just for one gear. THAT should be taken out.

People complain about horizontal gear progression, but we have the perfect opportunity for it. Tome gear, semi raiding gear, and crafted gear could all be similar in power but have different effects for different content. Thus filling the desire for all of them, not the absolute need, and not jacking up the ilvl to a silly amount.

There's a reason MMOs went from having all RNG drops to using a lot of token systems. While I'm fine with having more ways to get gear, I am absolutely not OK with dialing back any token systems. I'm sorry, but I fervently hope the devs ignore any calls for more relevant RNG-based gear in the game.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but...what would the benefit to the system be?

Instead of (possibly) doing many different dungeons for tomestones, you'd have to do one dungeon...over and over again...with no guarantee that, after doing it x amount of times, you'll get a piece of equipment?

I'm aware that it isn't supposed to completely replace the tomestone system, but it seems like there would be no real benefit to having top-level gear available from the dungeon. Something I recall you bringing is the possibility that you could get an awful dungeon as part of the roulette, but what if the top iLevel dungeon for the patch was one of those awful dungeons?

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

How about giving us Relic armor that can only be powered up in eureka?

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I can't wait for the atma for
Each
Piece
Of
Armor
???

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

Instead of (possibly) doing many different dungeons for tomestones, you'd have to do one dungeon...over and over again...with no guarantee that, after doing it x amount of times, you'll get a piece of equipment?

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Yes, but if I'm lucky, I could get the item I want on the first try. Why do people run EX Primals over and over again, with no guarantee that, after doing x amount of time, they'll get the bird mount ?

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

Something I recall you bringing is the possibility that you could get an awful dungeon as part of the roulette, but what if the top iLevel dungeon for the patch was one of those awful dungeons?

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If I absolutely loath Neverreap, I'd run Fractal to get all the items here. For the Neverreap items, I'll spend the few tomestones I'll get from the lvl 50 and leveling roulettes.

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wi...earch_Facility That's why this dungeon exist that serves as a pretty efficient way to obtain Tomestones of Lore.

150 tombstones of Lore, 10 Scriptures, however it's a capped IL of 180, meaning that anyone who is just started/needing to catch up can easily run with this content as they build up their gear with the last tier tomestone set. So ya, maybe to get the whole set it would take 19hrs and some but spread that out 2hrs a day or less.

However you also have other means to increase your IL, Void Ark is just a 175 entry with Mhach being 205, IL 200 from Ark, IL 230 from Mhach. Doing Mhach would give you the currency to upgrade the Lore gear into i240, so it's a win/win in that sense of slowly building up your gear.

Honestly speaking the means at which it takes to catch up is rather well balanced in 14, there is no need to change in in it's curent form, if you have friends, or know others who need to catch up, it's super simple, start with a few Research Facility to get some tomestones to buy the necessities then move up to the void ark/raids PLUS you can get a super easy IL 235 weapon by doing POTD and hell if you are lv 50 or any lv that still needs to hit 60, playing POTD and obtaining the 30/30 needed for weapon is the best thing you can do for catchup plus the moment you hit 60 you'll start to gain tomestones for completing the run so if you still need 30/30 to obtain the weapon you can also earn tomestones along the way.

People who complaining about gearing up just aren't seeing all the ways to gear up, there has never been an easier way to obtain a weapon of a competent IL than there is now and from there it's just easy to slowly build up gear around there. Only thing really missing is the proper balance to Diadem that would of been in this patch but sadly been pushed back to patch 3.5, if that were in the game now I feel the means of which to gear up would be completely well tuned to offer pretty much any variety that a player wanted to gear up/catch up and work towards getting the best gear they can.

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Originally Posted by Airget

150 tombstones of Lore, 10 Scriptures

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Tomestones...

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Originally Posted by Airget

However you also have other means to increase your IL, Void Ark is just a 175 entry with Mhach being 205, IL 200 from Ark, IL 230 from Mhach.

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How was I supposed to enter Void Ark without tome gear ?

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Originally Posted by Airget

People who complaining about gearing up just aren't seeing all the ways to gear up

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Please, tell me all the ways I had to gear up starting from 3.0 ?