With Eve gone, only sub based MMOs left are FFXIV and WoW

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Usually MMORPGs goes F2P because investors wants their money back ASAP, and F2P offers a fast initial income, but after that it always goes down til the game just dies.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

So even if ffxiv would make less profit they still can release content to gain subs back meanwhile f2p games don't have the ability to do that unless cash shop gives enough profit countless of f2p games were dead after a short time due that.

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Lineage II (2003), Everquest II (2004), Dungeons & Dragons (2006), Lords of the Ring (2007), Aion (2008), Star Trek (2010), Star Wars TOR (2011), and the list goes one are still alive and well after so many years being F2P games.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Well, League of Legends is not a MMORPG and can't be compared, since it's a different market.

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Or is it? I already made that point in another thread - WoW's playerbase declined rapidly in the same timeframe as League of Legends playerbase increased rapidly. It's very likely that a lot of players simply switched games, especially when you consider that other MMORPG did not gain those 6+ million people WoW lost over the last expansions. You do not only compete within your genre.

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Originally Posted by Silvarion

Lineage II (2003), Everquest II (2004), Dungeons & Dragons (2006), Lords of the Ring (2007), Aion (2008), Star Trek (2010), Star Wars TOR (2011), and the list goes one are still alive and well after so many years being F2P games.

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Did I stated there weren't any mmo f2p game that is successful? You may want to read again what I said. Lol

I knew this topic
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3896012
was going to lead to this topic.

A barrier to entry can exist in many forms.

• Cost to buy an online game.(What is accessible out of the gate?)
• Monthly cost to play an online game you bought.(Internet and a sub if it is mandatory)
• Levels required to access content or combat you enjoy.(What is accessible out of the gate?)
• Time investment required(How much can I accomplish given my money and time?)
• Real life and other games competing for this games time.(Is this game worth sacrificing some of that?)
• I like soloing/duoing with a really close friend(How often can I do that?)
• I like grouping with online strangers in difficult content(How much of the game is solo centric?)

No definitive answer here as it varies from player to player and fluctuates for some.

Would going F2P or B2P get more players to try the game? Absolutely, because it removes some of the barrier. But that doesn't guarantee players will continue playing the game consistently and spending money.

Would staying P2P only get more players to try the game? Absolutely, because usually people are willing to try something. But as we see here as well it doesn't guarantee players will continue playing the game consistently, though it does guarantee that whoever plays spends money because you can't play at all if you don't.

I believe that regardless of the model a good designed game that respects the users time, money, and life situation is more important than the model when it comes to player retention. In the thread I linked and various other threads you see that different people have different ideas of what makes a game good for them. and respects their needs.

Has the model SE used so far worked for them? Yes, it has allowed them to bring more/bigger patches and expansions than most games in the market. But still we see threads stating dislike for quick ilvl refreshes, similar dungeon designs, lack of open world, and various other stuff.

Does a subscription only game mean it is better than any other game on the market due to that fact? No, other games score lower, as high, or higher regardless of the payment model. Just as going F2P or B2P doesn't mean SE would make more money just because some study shows F2P make more money for x game.

TLDR: I don't see this game going F2P or whatever due to statements by Yoshi. This game is in no threat of dying regardless if the game stays P2P. A good game transcends models and ongoing retention or revisiting is the testament to how good a game is. If the ongoing retention and revisiting slows down to a crawl, then a change would have to be made unless the company didn't care if the game died or made less money.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

my personal preference is B2P, with an Optional Subscription that offers goodies.

ESO has this business model, and I really like it.

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ESO died a little for me when they started spending most of their cosmetic dev time on the store, it died completely for me when they released lockboxes. I prefer sub because it's piece of mind that this won't happen (excluding a few store-bought scion and event outfits).

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Originally Posted by Zafrei

(excluding a few store-bought scion and event outfits).

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Aaand a few store-exclusive mounts and the chinese outfits and the emotes and...

I dunno. At the current rate, it's going to become a "lot" to exclude.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Aaand a few store-exclusive mounts and the chinese outfits and the emotes and...

I dunno. At the current rate, it's going to become a "lot" to exclude.

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The Chinese outfits and emotes were related to a Chinese event weren't they? The other emotes were also event related too I think? Although you do have me on the mounts... still, I'd suggest taking a peek in the ESO or SWTOR store to see what really ruthlessly milking your customer base looks like. As far as FFXIV goes right now, I'm perfectly happy with the small amount of items they have in there, and still much prefer their sub fee model to any other MMO available right now.

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Originally Posted by Silvarion

Lineage II (2003), Everquest II (2004), Dungeons & Dragons (2006), Lords of the Ring (2007), Aion (2008), Star Trek (2010), Star Wars TOR (2011), and the list goes one are still alive and well after so many years being F2P games.

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You and I have drastically different definitions of "alive and well."

In my opinion, F2P is a bad plan for RP MMOs. I understand the need for cash shops, as people want vanity frills and having "rare drops" or gating them behind raids is (IMO) a bad plan in that it incentives people that have no interest in raiding to do it "just for the mount." It's smarter to have that stuff in a cash shop. Having rare vanity items sell for in game currency is also bad, as it drives RMT and botting.

However, the cash shop should never sell anything useful. Like in game currency or armor.

WoW has tokens, and I have already cancelled my subscription and only use those. There's never any shortage of them, so either there is no actual connection between gold sales and game time sales, or they are selling a LOT of gold to whales who want to make in game gold purchases, thus blowing up the economy even further.

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Originally Posted by Silvarion

Lineage II (2003), Everquest II (2004), Dungeons & Dragons (2006), Lords of the Ring (2007), Aion (2008), Star Trek (2010), Star Wars TOR (2011), and the list goes one are still alive and well after so many years being F2P games.

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They may be alive, but it's like hanging on for dear life, with some life support, It's like being bedreddin but a few attached people refuse to let it die, so it hangs on. so, alive? yes, well? Hardly. i have all but forgotten those games even existed at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Unless things have changed since the announcement, EVE is planning to go F2P in November. Or in the least have a F2P model.

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I don't know if you know EVE, so I'm gonna state a few things about the game just to be sure:
The "world map" of EVE, the galaxy of New Eden, is comprised of a couple of thousands of systems (maps), each one with a handful of planets, stations, asteroid fields, etc. Each system has a number associated to it called a Security Rating, which can vary from 1.0 (very secure) to 0.0 and beyond (hell-like lawless land). The differences are:

Highsec (sec rating 0.5 and above) - If you attack another player, CONCORD (the police) ships will attack you on sight (and there are lots of CONCORD ships patrolling each sector, and they are FUCKING OP). Besides that, you'll incur penalties and criminal status, which bars you entry in most space stations (AKA the places where you do everything in the game, since you can't land on planets)

Lowsec (sec rating 0.1 to 0.4) - CONCORD will not attack you if you shoot other people, but you'll still incur criminal status and sanctions if you do that a lot

Nullsec (sec rationg 0.0) - 100% lawless territory. Do whatever your heart desires, nobody is gonna stop you.

Geographically, the closer to the center of the galaxy, and to the borders of the NPC empires described in EVE lore, the higher the security. The so-called newbie zones are all in 1.0 space. Now, the thing is, The entire late/endgame of EVE is done at nullsec. It's only in Nullsec that you can have player corporations (EVE's FC/Guild component) lay claim to space stations, all the late-game minerals and materials are only found there, and that's where all those stories about huge battles and year-long cons happen - But like I said, there are NO LAWS in this place, so it's a PvP-heavy zone. And by heavy I mean RUTHLESS - Everyone who ventures in nullsec (and even on lowsec, even there it's not pretty) needs not only to know lots of stuff about how to protect themselves and not being seen, they also need a STRONG SHIP, because of the SEVERAL HUNDREDS of players just waiting for an opportunity to mercilessly kill you and steal your cargo, or just for a laugh. ALMOST EVERY SYSTEM has like one or two of players hunting ships 24/7, and most of them are GOOD hunters that can track you and triangulate your position even while you pull a good effort to stay below the radar. Not to mention that if a player corp has claim on a system, they are hostile to everyone who's not in their corp, so there's their automated defenses and drones too flying about - in a state of permanent everyone-against-everyone war, and Player-Owned stations are VALUABLE, they need to defend themselves.

Eve Nullsec is WILD WEST, amigo, and that's where all the cool kids are. And the Alpha players (the F2P model players) can only learn how to pilot tech one ships of their own race. That, in practical terms, means they're confined in highsec, cuz if they try to venture further, they'll undoubtely be ganked to oblivion by a ship orders of magnitude stronger than them. T1 ships are WEAK. They are made of PAPER compared to what the vast majority of players have now.

To make a comparison, it's like WoW in a PvP server, but you can't lvl past 20, and all contested zones are filled to the brim with lvl 100 players who love to pop newbs and camp their corpses.


So, that's why I say that EVE IS NOT GOING F2P. All they're offering is a GLORIFIED TRIAL, you won't see or play the vast majority of what EVE has to offer unless you shell out a sub or buy a PLEX (which essentially means someone else paid your sub).

If I remember hearing correctly Wild Star is going back to purely sub based. It's pretty bad when a game starts out that way, goes free because it's almost dead then goes back out of nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

If I remember hearing correctly Wild Star is going back to purely sub based. It's pretty bad when a game starts out that way, goes free because it's almost dead then goes back out of nowhere.

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Nearly as bad as a game having to lose it's subscription for a while, then closing down because it was so poorly received while the devs revamped the whole thing........oh wait :-)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Having money to spend on a sub doesn't mean that you are going to be a positive member of the community.

That said, I'm all for FFXIV keeping its sub as well. My only concern is the increasing costs and frequency of stuff in the cash shop. IMO it is ridiculous that even extra retainers are in the cash shop, but since then we've seen even more ridiculous things imo.

I feel if you pay monthly, you shouldn't have added content in a cash shop. Cash shops are ways for free MMO's to make money. Subs are for those of us who want quality content without cash shops. :\

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Personally I am 100% fine with cash shops in any game as long as it's only superficial/ aesthetic items that don't give payers a significant ability to play the game better. Played so many games where cash shops like those completely ruined
PvP. What I am against however is exorbitantly priced items in a game that you already pay just to log in to.

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Originally Posted by Dreamsoap

Personally I am 100% fine with cash shops in any game as long as it's only superficial/ aesthetic items that don't give payers a significant ability to play the game better. Played so many games where cash shops like those completely ruined
PvP. What I am against however is exorbitantly priced items in a game that you already pay just to log in to.

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Indeed, we each have our own opinions of them. Personally, I am just as against a cash shop in a sub game that only does aesthetic items as one that has ability bonuses. I pay monthly to access all of the content. That said, I'd be a bit less bothered by it (and may even take part in it) if the prices were more reasonable. For example, I'd pay $3 for the Chinese Outfit, but $18 is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Eve Nullsec is WILD WEST, amigo, and that's where all the cool kids are.

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dangerously off-topic, but the cool kids are in wormholes

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Originally Posted by Xiao_

dangerously off-topic, but the cool kids are in wormholes

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Oh well, now that's ANOTHER THING ENTIRELY.... hahah
W-Space is like the top cream of the top cherry rs. The majority of the late gamers tho are in Nullsec. Highsec is only for the newbs and the occasional con artist based in Jita, and that's where alphas will be mostly confined to.

Anyhow, I don't think its so off-topic, since the premise of the OP was saying that FFXIV is the last bastion of sub-based MMO now that "EVE is gone". I wanted to prove that eeeh... EVE is not gone. So, the case in point is at least partly invalid.

Also, worth noticing is that WoW is sub-based too. Sure, it has a PLEX-like system, but subs through that are actually MORE EXPENSIVE than normal subs, so its not something a lot of people do.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Oh well, now that's ANOTHER THING ENTIRELY.... hahah
W-Space is like the top cream of the top cherry rs. The majority of the late gamers tho are in Nullsec. Highsec is only for the newbs and the occasional con artist based in Jita, and that's where alphas will be mostly confined to.

Anyhow, I don't think its so off-topic, since the premise of the OP was saying that FFXIV is the last bastion of sub-based MMO now that "EVE is gone". I wanted to prove that eeeh... EVE is not gone. So, the case in point is at least partly invalid.

Also, worth noticing is that WoW is sub-based too. Sure, it has a PLEX-like system, but subs through that are actually MORE EXPENSIVE than normal subs, so its not something a lot of people do.

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Eve has a lot of new player based null-sec orgs now, low skill point players in tech 1 ships aren't exactly a valuable commodity but big coalitions do want them.
High-sec isn't just for newbs either, it's still where the majority of construction takes place. I don't think any null-sec organization is totally self-sustaining when it comes to supplying themselves.

It all depends what you consider 'end-game' or 'late-game', it's a sandbox game, people come up with their own goals. If you want to be an Industry mogul manipulating the markets then being based in null-sec is pretty much a waste of time.

And yeah, I totally agree, EVE isn't gone, they're basically just removing the time limit from trial accounts. It's quite a clever move from CCP to be honest, I was thinking about logging my main back with an alpha clone just to check on my old alliance and catch up with a few people. Tagging along with them in a cheap T1 cruiser has got much more chance to pulling me back in game than any marketing campaign ever will.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

low skill point players in tech 1 ships aren't exactly a valuable commodity but big coalitions do want them.

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Now that's news. What for? a zerg-type kamikazi fleet?
But yeah, granted, I forgot about the market manipulators skewing the Jita boards, however... construction, rly? I'm a somewhat "mid-tier" player, and I thought that the heavy industrialists were all in POSses, since you basically can't offer competitive prices with all those taxes...

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Originally Posted by Zafrei

ESO died a little for me when they started spending most of their cosmetic dev time on the store, it died completely for me when they released lockboxes. I prefer sub because it's piece of mind that this won't happen (excluding a few store-bought scion and event outfits).

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Lockboxes suck. didn't realize ESO had them. maybe it is because I am on PS4 and we didn't get them yet or something.

also, every time I see someone suggest that "a Subscription = a better community", I /facepalm.

there is toxicity everywhere in MMOs, and 15 dollars a month does not and will not ever prevent it.

Dont mind that ffxiv is sub only, but it wouldn't bother me one bit if it ever went b2p or ftp.

I don't judge a game by its payment model, ever. That is truly way way down on my life priority list O.o

If a game is fun for me or even just has certain parts that are and if its decently run by the developers then I play it, any model at all.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

snip

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https://community.eveonline.com/news...to-eve-online/
https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/31/...-free-to-play/
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/31/12...e-free-to-play

F2P is F2P. Doesn't matter if you only have access to limited systems and features or not. If you get to play the game; at no cost, then it is F2P. There's three links for you, believe them or not.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Now that's news. What for? a zerg-type kamikazi fleet?
But yeah, granted, I forgot about the market manipulators skewing the Jita boards, however... construction, rly? I'm a somewhat "mid-tier" player, and I thought that the heavy industrialists were all in POSses, since you basically can't offer competitive prices with all those taxes...

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Do you still play? If not depending on how long you've been away you might be interested in knowing that POSes are getting phased out slowly now in favour of Citadels and other less fiddly buildings. Putting up POSes in HS isn't particularly difficult though, hasn't been for a very long time. I had a few in HS along with a few customs offices back when I played.

As for low SP players and cheap ships, try looking up Pandemic Horde, Brave Newbies, or Karmafleet. TEST Alliance also has a newbie division but I can't remember its name. Pandemic Horde at least was a pretty big player in the recent war that forced Goonswarm out of the north.
You're mostly right, the desire for newbies is at its most simple about having a bigger zerg. The sovereignty system also changed fairly recently as well though. When you try to take a systems flag it spews control nodes throughout the whole constellation for you to contest. The whole system is a bit overly complicated but essentially the idea is to spread fights throughout an area rather than have one massive stand up brawl.
Cheap fast ships to chase away people trying to hack the nodes in the system where the main fight isn't are rather useful.

E: I also forgot to mention, it's a new game to new players. They still find it all exciting, pay for a bunch of cheap ships, gift them to 20-30 new players and then ask them to go on a suicide roam through enemy territory. They'll have a great time and be a right pain for all the miners and PvEers there.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

https://community.eveonline.com/news...to-eve-online/
https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/31/...-free-to-play/
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/31/12...e-free-to-play

F2P is F2P. Doesn't matter if you only have access to limited systems and features or not. If you get to play the game; at no cost, then it is F2P. There's three links for you, believe them or not.

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TIL any game with a trial is f2p.

Wait is this an EVE thread now?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

What do you mean EVE is gone?

EVE didn't become F2P, it just offered a "trial" tier, and a very limited one at that.

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Exactly this!

EVE is as F2P as Warcraft is. That is, a very limited character with heavy gear and level restrictions in an unlimited time demo.

This game does not suit itself to F2P and it's frustraiting that people are STILL bringing it up to this day. (Hell i'm still annoyed that we have the cash shop items that we do now.. but i've dealt with it since it's mostly NPC copycat attire and event stuff I already had the chance to get "free")

No

Thank

You

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Originally Posted by Jandor

snip about the current state of EVE

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My relationship with EVE is kinda on-and-off. Ever since the launch, I activate a sub, play a couple of months, get bored, unsub, wait a year or so, then rinse and repeat. I must be the oldest player in EVE with low-to-mid SP. Now you told me some very interesting stuff! I might fire up my sub again to check it out. My PvP skills are kinda awful, so I only took a few small dips in low/nullsec. I wanted to manufacture, just got into T2 production but it was really really hard to be competitive and make a profit, due to not owning a POS. Did some studies and some dives in PI thinking it might be possible to have a POS and be self-sustainable fuel-wise in a few months, but that didn't work out well.

Again, After what you said, I'm really keen on unfreezing my sub to check out the current content :)

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

https://community.eveonline.com/news...to-eve-online/
https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/31/...-free-to-play/
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/31/12...e-free-to-play

F2P is F2P. Doesn't matter if you only have access to limited systems and features or not. If you get to play the game; at no cost, then it is F2P. There's three links for you, believe them or not.

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lol the problem is F2P games do the opposite of that, sure you can "log on" for free but if you actually want to GET anywhere, you'll have to shell out some cash, usually 10x more then a sub based game, if you actually intend to stay on top.

The only f2p game i can tolerate is PSO2 and even then you have to pay for a premium that is required for you to even TRADE ITEMS to other players. but compared to others you can get by without spending a single dime on it, you'll just have to work a lot harder then others who can just toss money at sega and get everything quickly.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

lol the problem is F2P games do the opposite of that, sure you can "log on" for free but if you actually want to GET anywhere, you'll have to shell out some cash, usually 10x more then a sub based game, if you actually intend to stay on top.

The only f2p game i can tolerate is PSO2 and even then you have to pay for a premium that is required for you to even TRADE ITEMS to other players. but compared to others you can get by without spending a single dime on it, you'll just have to work a lot harder then others who can just toss money at sega and get everything quickly.

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Oh by all means, I'm not saying they won't try to nail you to the wall elsewhere monetarily. My issue is that some people seem to think that just because you're locked out of content, you're some how not playing the game. For instance, lets say ARR went free to play; not Heavensward, but just ARR. Am I some how not playing FF XIV because I'm not in Heavensward content?

Because that seems to be what people are trying to say up above.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Oh by all means, I'm not saying they won't try to nail you to the wall elsewhere monetarily. My issue is that some people seem to think that just because you're locked out of content, you're some how not playing the game. For instance, lets say ARR went free to play; not Heavensward, but just ARR. Am I some how not playing FF XIV because I'm not in Heavensward content?

Because that seems to be what people are trying to say up above.

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Your argument can be used to call FFXIV F2P, remember we have a free trial that goes up to level 35.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Your argument can be used to call FFXIV F2P, remember we have a free trial that goes up to level 35.

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And did you at all bother to read the links I provided? I'm assuming not. Because if you did.. you would have read that CCP (the company that creates EVE Online) is planning for it to go F2P in November. Next month.

One of the links.. is actually EVE Online's community site.

Unless I'm spouting old news that has since changed.. I have no issue with admitting I'm wrong, but I'm not doing so with people that aren't going to acknowledge the info I've provided.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

*snip*

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what I mean by locked out is this:

I buy ARR for 60 bucks.

I can't play ARR unless I pay an additional 15 bucks every month. despite the fact that I purchased the game, for full price.

Bottom line, imo - if I buy your game, the act of me paying you money to buy your game, should give me access to the game, with no other strings attached.

If you want me to pay you MORE money, then you should to give me something worth purchasing.

It should be "Thanks for spending 60 bucks on our game! If you pay us an additional 15 bucks a month, you'll get these additional benefits."

not "if you don't pay us 15 bucks a month, then we'll take away your access to the game and the 60 dollars you spent for it is now wasted."

I kinda don't understand how that doesn't make sense. and I will always beat that drum. I only like subscriptions if it is a CHOICE, and not a RANSOM.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

snip

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Unless I'm mistaken, the box says additional subscription required. It's not like you don't know what you're getting into when you buy the game. So if you spend 60 bucks on a game, knowing it requires further subscription, and then get upset that you have to pay a subscription, that's kinda on you.

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Originally Posted by Catriana

Unless I'm mistaken, the box says additional subscription required. It's not like you don't know what you're getting into when you buy the game.

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of course.

that doesn't mean I am obligated to like it, cheerlead it, or defend it.

personally I am happy that this business model is fading. It's an outdated business model from a time where there was little choice in the Genre.

My hope is that B2P, not F2P, replaces it.

$60 box cost(there is your barrier to entry) + Optional Subscription(with associated goodies) is pretty much perfect. in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

of course.

that doesn't mean I am obligated to like it or cheerlead for it.

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Then...don't...buy it? You're not obligated to like it sure, nor are you obligated to buy it. That's your choice as a consumer. But to buy it and then grumble about it tends to remove any degree of sympathy. No one forced your hand.

EDIT: To list an example - I don't care much for Overwatch's prices, so I didn't buy the game. But I don't go grousing about it even though I'd like to play. Blizzard made their decision, I made mine. That's just all there is to it. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Having money to spend on a sub doesn't mean that you are going to be a positive member of the community.

That said, I'm all for FFXIV keeping its sub as well. My only concern is the increasing costs and frequency of stuff in the cash shop. IMO it is ridiculous that even extra retainers are in the cash shop, but since then we've seen even more ridiculous things imo.

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But....all those extra $$ from retainers in the cash shop are surely among the extra $$$$$$ spent on 4.0 including server upgrades that will facilitate a very large increase in inventory (apparently). ;)


Doesn't that suggest that the cash shop is not so bad if it results in them being able to expand servers and put more development into the game? I can remember being told by all and sundry that they would never upgrade the servers for 4.0 and the idea that it would help inventory was pie in the sky anyway, because they would not invest in it. It would seem that the profits from the FFXIV property are good enough to roll back considerable $$ into server infrastructure as well as development.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

snip

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And that is exactly what EVE is soon to be next month. Granted as a free player you won't have access to certain features/skills/ships/etc etc. But you will have the option of being a sub or not and still be able to play.

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Originally Posted by Catriana

*snip*

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Well, what can I say. I love MMOs and this is the arguably the best one out there right now. so I pay the ransom.

I'm not asking for sympathy. there is nothing to be sympathetic about. SE is gonna do what SE wants to do. and at the end of the day, it is just 15 bucks and it's not like i can't afford it.

However, this doesn't mean I'm just gonna shut up and not express my preferences whenever the subject of MMO payment models comes up in discussion. and mine are B2P with Optional Subscription. Also, I'm not in here creating threads about it demanding that they change or don't change the payment model either. just responding to comments.

You have to take into account that this is an online game so if you want the servers running and content coming, they got to make money. If there is no sub, there will be another catch that will force people to play, at least those serious about the game.