The most blatant disadvantage to holmgang that wasn't mentioned is that it requires a target. Cheesing double prey in Ravana with Pally and Dark was easy. Wars do not get the luxury of an invulnerability skill while the boss is absent.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
Walking dead should be a gift not a curse
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09-22-2016, 05:26 PMRawrz
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09-22-2016, 06:40 PMLythInterestingly, LD was bugged at the time of Ravana's release, in that overhealing didn't count towards your total. After you took the hit from double prey and WD activated, getting healed to maximum health would leave you 1 hp short of cleansing WD. You needed to take additional damage in order for the healing to be counted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
The problem is that the next two attacks are avoidable (fire donut and circle slash). There wasn't enough time to wait for him to come back and land an autoattack on you. One workaround was to take damage from the fire attack to give your healers more damage to heal up, but that gave you a vulnerability stack. I don't regard this as an "easy" solution, and it didn't stop the world first clear from being PLD/WAR.
There always is the third option: to do the mechanics. If there's no targetable boss, then chances are that the fatal damage is avoidable. -
09-22-2016, 09:20 PMFallenWings
In that scenario you could still cheese the mechanic by receiving an Adlo+Stoneskin and popping Vengeance so that you receive 0 damage from the first charge. Blocking the damage completely negates the debuff so you could survive the second charge as a warrior. Same application for other tanks allowing you to save your HG/LD for whatever else you want.
Just a fyi. -
09-22-2016, 09:31 PMRawrzYou could also just let it all go to hell, run in for the AOE, Run out to avoid the knockback, run back to the center and LB3 Heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
It was a trend for a short while. You'd find groups specifically excluding wars (lol wut right? ) -
09-22-2016, 09:40 PMFallenWings
Afaik it was a passing mechanic and you would "normally" have the first prey on a healer and then swapped to a tank for the second charge. It's still "cheesing" since it's a different strategy that virtually does the same thing albeit with a different route to pressing just one button.
Also as far as the community is concerned, having to have a target is a STRENGTH of war. There's no such thing as weaknesses for the almighty WAR. /s -
09-22-2016, 10:09 PMLythIt must have been an extremely short trend. Back in pre-Gordias HW, a lot of players were still fixated on the idea of PLD/WAR as the only way to go, simply because they had never been shown anything different. It's kind of amusing to go back and sift through some of those old threads. How times have changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
It wasn't until world first progression teams decided to bring out a DRK/WAR combo for A3S/A4S that the broader community started to recognise that a non-PLD MT was actually feasible for progression, after nearly two years of complete dominance. -
09-23-2016, 04:37 AMMagiusNecrosWhich is in every basic party ever considering the Tank is using their defenses and HP pool and threat generation to give their party a fighting chance. Sounds like Tanks sacrificing their HP is already a thing. A DRK should be able to sacrifice even more HP because they can afford to in order to increase their deeps. But no. Here all fights boil down to either burn the Boss or follow mechanics where essentially your stats don't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
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09-23-2016, 08:08 AMSyzzleSparkYou really gotta get over the fact that DRK is not a DPS and doesn't intentionally gimp its ability to tank as a central mechanic of the job. The job is over a year old, move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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09-23-2016, 09:42 AMMagiusNecrosI'll get over it when they start treating FF jobs like FF jobs and not choosing popular flavor job titles and make it into something it is not. So never basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
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09-23-2016, 04:09 PMReynhartIf by "treating FF jobs like FF jobs", you mean "what they are in other FF games", it's just impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
First, because these games don't have to abide by MMO rules (i.e Cecil can be the most powerful character while also being the most durable), and second, because jobs are already different between several older FF games... -
09-23-2016, 05:02 PMADVSS
well i dont care personally if holmgang is untargetted hell you can accidently pop provoke on yourself, so why not just let it activate? If thats all thats needed to fix up LD just a little bit, wont make me cry any. probably no one in this discussion tbf though im sure someone will prove me wrong
as per lyth's post this like second comment cracked me up, blast from the past i remember the mp bug
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Originally Posted by Kiteless
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09-23-2016, 11:05 PMMagiusNecrosExcept most FF games have job classes performing their base function as they have everywhere else. It seems to be only in XIV where they are a special snowflake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Any other FF has elemental damage. XIV? Nope.
2 handed weapons in most FF games? Big single hits. XIV? Wet noodle of steel.
If we want to forego past incarnations, from a balance perspective how is it really fair that a PLD/WAR has an on demand 1200 potency heal skill while the DRK's is dependent on a target dying. Artificial skill ceiling if you ask me.
Why is LD such a party drain but the PLD/WAR can essentially not be a hindrance at all. You don't design skills for raids exclusively. Reeks of bad design. All DRK is and ever will be is a poor mish mash of idea's combining PLD and WAR together with a lack of identity especially considering how unreliable Parry can be which they wanted to make a gimmick for DRK. Dark Mind and a 3 second MP fueled Infuriate to buff 7 out of 24 skills is not enough. Especially when you consider Grit only having one additional effect which is a weak heal from Souleater. It's OT utilities are crap and with a Monk it becomes even more crap. As a MT it's serviceable...but let's be honest the Warrior has the potential to outclass it in every way in the realm of HP sustain and their own death cheat on a lower cooldown to boot. Oh it requires a target but how often does a boss do a tankbuster to kill a tank when they are untargetable? Never? -
09-23-2016, 11:23 PMReynhartIf you look at DRK, depending on the game, it's totally different.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
The first real DRK job was basically a Samurai that could use low-level white magic. In IV, Cecil was still the most durable party member even when he was a DRK, so DRK was pretty tanky. In FFXI, DRK is a melee job that can use black magic...what is basically the Ninja from FF I. But Ninja also changed to be the dual wield user...
Two handed weapons didn't really existed in FF before FF XI. You had an accessory that could prevent you from using a shield to wield your weapon with two hands, but you could do it with a basic sword too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
DRK has a 400 potency attack that heals you, and he can use it far more than a PLD or WAR can use their skill. It can also use Abyssal drain for AoE situation, to heal for a lot of HP. So, it's burst healing vs constant healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
In the end "job balancing" has nothing to do with job identity, so it's another topic. For example, if RDM were to retain it's core identity, it would be a useless job.