In 4.0 can we please get rid of caster bars on physical ranged jobs?!

/basks in Bard Tears

Please give me more of them. Please don't change WM in 4.0 Squeenix (as in, take it away).
I'm really just hoping for more traits in 4.0, not skills.

For Bard... Please, more focus on new songs, less focus on it needing to catch up on DPS...

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

LOL I'm guessing that ability was not very well recieved by the playerbase

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It's the one reason I don't play bard anymore and levelled ninja.

I kinda feel brd doesn't fit anywhere these days. if it's going to have cast times then it needs to have caster levels of dps.

in 2.0 it was shrugged off as lower dps because its a support job. but that's no longer true. half the jobs in the game bring as much support/utility if not more than a brd does. ninja for example can throw tp on party members. lower mobs resistances to slashing / everything. help manage enmity with shade walker and smokescreen. a ton more support than a bard has and can do all of that support with no loss of dps. by comparison best a bard can do is foe req as long as mp allows, any other songs cripple there dps even more than it already is.

personally would love nothing more than to see minuet get axed though. currently the only thing my bard ever sees is the occasional 50 roulette or crystal tower.

sidenote archer was one of the first jobs I levelled in 1.0 and I'd always hoped it would go the ranger path not the bard. oh well

Thing is, we already have/had two caster classes with cast bars. Now we have 4. Removing variety is not a good thing here...

People who like the caster type, will play Black mage or Summoner.. those who prefer the other style, went Bard.

Now we have 2 classes originally designed to be casters, a third that was sorta designed to be like that(MCH) and a class that has had a cast bar tacked onto it at the last minute with no thought put into it. Likely because none of the devs play bard/care for the class.

How is this good?


Don't get me wrong, while I never supported WM.. I think that removing it now would just be a disaster. They'd have to come up with a clever way to make both stances viable. Bonus points to SE if they can figure out a way to make both bard camps happy here.

Off the top of my head.. make it so you don't need WM to use all the 50+ skills. This way everything is accessible to both stances. DPS can be adjusted, so that in WM you'd be close to the mobility of a black mage and do comparable DPS... while without WM, you'd be mobile with.. maybe slightly less DPS (like we were in 2.0)

Dunno.. at this point I'm rambling.

Casting just conflicts with the proc resets core you have. I think if they made empyreal arrow instant cast (like gauss round) it would help slightly but meh. Even with our instant casts GCD lag is very real (and feels terrible, also easily noticeable on dragoon).

In addition at least blm and mch feel powerful, bard not so much. Also sound WM makes is pretty annoying and makes every ability seem like it's the same so there's no variety. (mch has this same problem, though with ammo you get some reprieve)

I've seen it mentioned is "casting" is like drawing the string. Well bard already has slow GCDs because it has no "speed up" skill and it like dragoon in that regard we have big weapons so our GCDs are slower so that really is not a valid reason at all.

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Originally Posted by AngelyLowell

I agree that WM is a bad ideia for a moving class like Bard.

I know (and undersdand) they did that to increase BRD damage, but there is other ways to increase Bard's DPS and sacrificing other things than mobility.

For example, if WM is active, Bard can't use others song, so he/she loses his/her support ability to be a full DPS class. And in a time of need, deactivate de WM to be used as a support class.

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I totally love this idea!

When it comes to the debate of damage vs maneuverability, a lot of people fall back on the old argument of "well if you're ranged you don't need to worry about dealing with certain mechanics and can move while attacking and providing party support, so dealing less damage/having less damage mitigation is fair." This is no longerso valid.

There have been mechanics designed to target ranged/players at range, and party-wide damge does happen. Not only that but positionals aside, melees can be just as mobile as ranged, the difference being that they cannot fight AT range. And while not to the extent of BRD/MCH, they too provide party support, and at no penalty to their primary fuction. So limiting our movement in exchange for extra damage (that we then lose anyways for providing said support) is old logic that needs to be reviewed.

Change is coming in 4.0, and what better time to look carefully and change some core issues as well as address player grievances.

Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel can both go wrap themselves in Titan's loincloth and fling themselves off a cliff.

I have leveled both classes and cannot stress to you enough how much I hate the bow/gun caster stance.

IF you want to keep them, let them be toggled on just for the moves that need them (Iron jaws and Empyreal arrow) but even that is stretching it.

I'd go back and look at what they have to sacrifice in order to do more damage. For example Dragoon has the more complex rotation, but monk has positionals. What does BRD/MCH have? Standing still and casting? Really?

If we're going to be a DPS support class, let us toggle between them, then and make our support really count.

I main Bard and i have adapted to the WM gameplay. i can do good damage with it and clear Trials EX and Raids with it but it doesn't mean im liking it. a good compromise would be to keep the cast bar on WM locked actions such as Iron Jaws and Empy Arrow and leave the archer skills instant cast, that way bloodletter procs could be utilized more properly and using a gcd immediately after repelling shot wouldn't be clunky.

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

I main Bard and i have adapted to the WM gameplay. i can do good damage with it and clear Trials EX and Raids with it but it doesn't mean im liking it. a good compromise would be to keep the cast bar on WM locked actions such as Iron Jaws and Empy Arrow and leave the archer skills instant cast, that way bloodletter procs could be utilized more properly and using a gcd immediately after repelling shot wouldn't be clunky.

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All they'd have to do to fix the issue is lock the skills behind being a certain distance away from the target (some skill are close, some are far, some are in between) it'd be the equivalent of ranged positionals. That would allow them to un-tether BRD and still keep the skill cap high enough to justify an increase in DPS.

Yes hi hello

I progressed and cleared final coil pre-echo as bard. I took on every mechanic I could while perpetually in motion and attempting to keep LoS on my target. Wanderer's Craperret needs to die in a fire.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

All they'd have to do to fix the issue is lock the skills behind being a certain distance away from the target (some skill are close, some are far, some are in between) it'd be the equivalent of ranged positionals. That would allow them to un-tether BRD and still keep the skill cap high enough to justify an increase in DPS.

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you know, i would actually love a playstyle concept like that! 10000x better than cast bars that break the traits of the core class of the job. it would even add a reason to use repelling shot more than just a dps filler or a situational tool useful for avoid mechanics

Where is the idea that bard was under used in 2.0? I hardly ever ran high level content without one there.

Whether that's due to how numerous they were or not, no one would fault a bard for bad utility. I always appreciated a song.... When you all held still long enough for your team to remain in range, at least.


The more I look at what people say about WM, the more it seems to me that 3.0's choices to give utility skills to other jobs and slow bards down has put bard in the odd position of losing it's niche as a key support DPS.

Otherwise, it really does just sound like a bunch of people crying "it changed so now it sucks!" over and over. Especially with a population of bards that function perfectly fine with WM.


Bard isn't the job that was fundamentally changed with the level cap increased....

Captain's Log: Day 446 since release of Heavensward.

BRDs still salty about WM and continue to complain about it instead of either adjusting or choosing a job that better suits their playstyle.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

I just want bard to have ya know... MORE SUPPORT ABILITIES?

Im indifferent to the casting bar. I main a caster so I can't really say its not good or not, I really don't notice it half the time.

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Way back in the day, Bard used to cross class Conjurer.

And even at the start of 2.0 still had the healer limit break.

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Originally Posted by ChrisBabaganoosh

[...] or choosing a job that better suits their playstyle.

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Yeah, why don't they just, uh...play that other ranged DPS without cast times.

You know, that one...what's it called again?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Yeah, why don't they just, uh...play that other ranged DPS without cast times.

You know, that one...what's it called again?

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lol...well Rogue can throw knives, does that count? ;)

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Yeah, why don't they just, uh...play that other ranged DPS without cast times.

You know, that one...what's it called again?

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or they fix bloodletter with WM on and casted gcds getting interrupted after doing a repel shot and the cast bars can stay ^^

the thing with the other ranged DPS class, is that it was designed from the ground up to account for it's caster stance while bard was not.

and some (or a lot of us) who love the skill set and aesthetics of the Bard job do not want to switch so we just deal with it, adapt and it's back to business as usual - this doesn't mean all of us bards are happy with it.

/shrug

I personally think WM and GB are fine as is. Actually got more interested in Bard once I ran through it in the PotD as a level 50. I think people who complain about WM just wanna complain for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

lol...well Rogue can throw knives, does that count? ;)

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*Runs around in Ex dungeons and Trials as NIN, only using "Throwing Dagger" -skill*

"Sorry, it's just my playstyle is different from yours."

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Originally Posted by ChrisBabaganoosh

Captain's Log: Day 446 since release of Heavensward.

BRDs still salty about WM and continue to complain about it instead of either adjusting or choosing a job that better suits their playstyle.

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I've not seen a post I've related to so hard in a while.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

*Runs around in Ex dungeons and Trials as NIN, only using "Throwing Dagger" -skill*

"Sorry, it's just my playstyle is different from yours."

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Exactly! This person get's it.

I mean, why doesn't everyone use this versatile and viable play style all the time?


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<j/k>

The people who think WM was a good addition for BRD clearly never played effectively or looked into the class with a lot of depth.

WM was not and never will be a BRD skill, it was copied and pasted off MCH.
It took away our auto attack, which makes the overall DPS of BRD lower, rewrote skills AND rendered some useless, not to mention the skill itself is casted and has a 15 second cool down, rather being toggled.

People who claim nonranged DPS lost the most DPS back in 2.X is also suspect, as BRD has traditionally been the weakest class in terms of damage, as the whole point was to focus on mobility and support, rather raw damage like MNK and DRG, or high amounts of burst damage like BLM flare spam.

SE has collectively destroyed the class and added more layers to play it effectively, a BRD players must maintain support, while being an on the fly esuna/leeches machine, all while being stuck behind a skill that we can't stance dance out of like MCH or WM, without fear of being locked out of Empyreal Arrow or Iron Jaws, two of our most heavily used skills.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

The people who think WM was a good addition for BRD clearly never played effectively or looked into the class with a lot of depth.

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this. most of the people who say it's ok have never mained it and played it extensively in raids and trials, and as such from the outside, they would see that the class is functioning 101% ok.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

There have been mechanics designed to target ranged/players at range, and party-wide damage does happen. Not only that but positionals aside, melees can be just as mobile as ranged, the difference being that they cannot fight AT range. And while not to the extent of BRD/MCH, they too provide party support, and at no penalty to their primary fuction. So limiting our movement in exchange for extra damage (that we then lose anyways for providing said support) is old logic that needs to be reviewed.

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and this from an MCH; who are more mobile than BRD

All these people that don't play bard complaining about how bards should stop complaining about their jobs. Wait what?

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

/shrug

I personally think WM and GB are fine as is. Actually got more interested in Bard once I ran through it in the PotD as a level 50. I think people who complain about WM just wanna complain for the sake of it.

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Fraid not. Just running PotD doesn't really give you the full experience that most bards here went through.

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Originally Posted by mb52139

Fraid not. Just running PotD doesn't really give you the full experience that most bards here went through.

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Seeing as I am level 60 with it now and decided to level it through PotD till about 57 id say it does. Its fine as is. :P

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Originally Posted by ChrisBabaganoosh

Captain's Log: Day 446 since release of Heavensward.

BRDs still salty about WM and continue to complain about it instead of either adjusting or choosing a job that better suits their playstyle.

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Captain's Log: Day 447 since release of Heavensward.

Non-BRDs still salty about BRDs who continue to dislike an unnecessary change (for the sake of change), even if said BRDs have either adjusted or hung their bows up.

Just because BRDs complain about it doesn't mean they haven't adjusted or haven't moved on. I can function with that stupid thing, well enough to do decent DPS. I have also moved on to a different job that I like less, because it's not BRD. I mean, that's the way it is, but BRD doesn't have to go silently into the night.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Seeing as I am level 60 with it now and decided to level it through PotD till about 57 id say it does. Its fine as is. :P

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I believe the pont they were making is that you did not main the class from 2.0 - 3.0. Meaning you did not run through all the content playing a class at level 50 to end of 2.0 that had an established play style that then, quite suddenly, changed and turned the class on it's head.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

SE has collectively destroyed the class and added more layers to play it effectively, a BRD players must maintain support, while being an on the fly esuna/leeches machine, all while being stuck behind a skill that we can't stance dance out of like MCH or WM, without fear of being locked out of Empyreal Arrow or Iron Jaws, two of our most heavily used skills.

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I agree with you, and I want to say that I know that a good Bard could put up good DPS numbers with the older play style (pre-HW). The thing is, that the changes to Bard with HW did is make a job/class that was extremely accessible much harder to play effectively. I mean, there is still a big difference between a good bard pre-HW and an average Bard pre-HW. But the point is that Bard offered a very forgiving play style making it easier for folks to handle AoEs since they could always move, and as long as they remembered basic DoT attack rotations they could still do better than auto-attack damage with ease.

I know a player who loves the game, won't ever play end-game, and who will never manage the complexities thrust on Bard with HW. So forever in any higher level content, many others will consider him a bad player, not because he's actually bad. It's because he can handle the main framework of the Bard as a DPS, but not the more complex elements that require pre-planning to use and attention to maintain.

I'm not saying that Bard is easy to play or that being a really good Bard is easy, it's not. But performing reasonably as a Bard used to be within the reach of far more players than it is now. It's a shame that this changed because when I looked at the game before starting way back in 2013, I knew that Bard would be good for the player I am thinking of, and he's loved it. That's changed though. I'd like to see the accessibility of Bard come back.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Yeah, why don't they just, uh...play that other ranged DPS without cast times.

You know, that one...what's it called again?

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My concern with this is that means all bards ever only play as bards. No alt jobs in a game that does everything it can to allow us to play with everything.

That's concerning in a whole different way.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Seeing as I am level 60 with it now and decided to level it through PotD till about 57 id say it does. Its fine as is. :P

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No.. you didn't learn the class from the start. You didn't work hard to learn your class and get as skilled as you could in it, only for 1 skill to turn EVERYTHING you knew of the class upside down. Simply doing a dungeon where you blast through 1-50, you don't really get to appreciate just what most bards went through.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

My concern with this is that means all bards ever only play as bards. No alt jobs in a game that does everything it can to allow us to play with everything.

That's concerning in a whole different way.

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some of us here that complain have tried and leveled a lot of the other jobs to 60.

some people play bard because it's the bow and arrow thing. some because of the playstyle and skill set. or both.

those who switched to MCH after it was buffed sometime in early 3.x clearly switched due to raid requirements (and some went back to BRD after the recent buffs to our dot and ogcd potencies)

it's similar to people who main DRG because it's the weapon, the aesthetic and the skill set.

we play BRD because we love BRD despite how SE broke us. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

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SE has collectively destroyed the class and added more layers to play it effectively, a BRD players must maintain support, while being an on the fly esuna/leeches machine, all while being stuck behind a skill that we can't stance dance out of like MCH or WM, without fear of being locked out of Empyreal Arrow or Iron Jaws, two of our most heavily used skills.

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Again, I shall reiterate, Bard isn't the only job fundamentally changed with the level cap increase. Read: Enochian on BLM and Aetherial Attunement on SMN.



Although, if giving WM a shorter cooldown to allow Bards the ability to stance dance ala and healer with Cleric's would save old school bards some heartache, then why don't we all push for it in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

My concern with this is that means all bards ever only play as bards. No alt jobs in a game that does everything it can to allow us to play with everything.

That's concerning in a whole different way.

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What's wrong with that? Take a look at my lodestone, the only job I have leveled passed 50 combat wise is Bard. I understand we can play as others things but in combat, I don't want to. I like my bow and arrow.

Tanking? No, it gives me aniexty. I tried, I ended up crying by the end of my first real dungeon, my S/O had to come over and finish up for me because it shook me up that bad.

Healing? NOPE! Not after the experience tanking gave me. I don't want people relaying on me to not let them die. I'd rather be the idiot who dies by their own mistakes.

Monk or Dragoon? Melee classes that I'm terrible with. Truth, I didn't give monk much of a go but I gave Dragoon a fair shot and I didn't like it. There is something about being in melee combat that makes me brain goes hodor.

Ninja? I'm poking at it right now because of the Yokai event, it's fairly fun but I only have ONE mundra and I still manage to rabbit myself! Something tells me that playing the class isn't quite for me @___@

Black Mage and Summoner? Not interested because I don't like playing casters.

MCH? See caster statement. Plus, I just don't wanna use a Gun. It's not my cup of tea.

Just because a game allows us to play all the classes, doesn't mean we have too. Some of us prefer being a master of one thing over a master of all things, regardless of the reasons and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Maybe I'm old fashioned but...

http://pm1.narvii.com/5773/5bfd112d7...8cfde5a_hq.jpg

Um, I think what most people don't understand about bard's is that we also need time to observe what is happening outside of the rotation, which is really has been really hard with the more complex rotation with HW. With the increase in he number of GCD and OGCD skill, and the inclusion of cast bars: most bards literally lost most of the time that was needed to observe things like TP and MP, and it insentivised prioritizing their rotation over what was needed for the party. And, we ended up with many players avoiding support functions entirely. You can totally forget about me casting paeon in parties, BTW. Paeon is just as much garbage in our rotation as shadowbind is, IMO.

They also should really do something like cap damage and HP/MP levels in the 1-50 dungeons and trials for synced content, because facerolling and ignoring mechanics is the reason why it's just so boring to do it. Except the Darkhold's second boss who should really return. Most of the 3.0 bosses were just totes super boring, anyway!

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Again, I shall reiterate, Bard isn't the only job fundamentally changed with the level cap increase. Read: Enochian on BLM and Aetherial Attunement on SMN.

Although, if giving WM a shorter cooldown to allow Bards the ability to stance dance ala and healer with Cleric's would save old school bards some heartache, then why don't we all push for it in 4.0?

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ok going with your given example. the thing with SMN and BLM is that they were casters from the beginning. BLM, sure eno and leylines, but the core of the class is still there. you manage MP usage with Ice and Fire and on top of that Manage echochain when it's there - when it's not up, you mostly go back to 50's blm routine. SMN, they were semi-mobile casters and DWT only added another layer (timing management) to it's core playstyle.

Bards took a 180 degree turn. broke some of the traits. and made certain ogcds clunky. sure thunderprocs on BLM is clunky too midcast of a fire/ice spell but they've dealt with that since low levels. bards had to suddenly adapt to a playstyle shift.

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Originally Posted by LillithCale

. Maybe I'm old fashioned but...

http://pm1.narvii.com/5773/5bfd112d7...8cfde5a_hq.jpg

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Look, just because I love Oddish to bits and one all the time doesn't mean I wasn't willing to at least try playing with other Pokemon of the same types instead to see if I enjoy them. Their are too many amazing poison and grass types to choose from that restricting myself just feels silly. Otherwise, I would've never realized how awesome Drapion, Crobat, or Whimsicott are!

That's why it bothers me. I've HAD to swap mains with 3.0, too, and I know I'm not the only one who did so. Scholar is borderline impossible on a controller set-up at level 60. I couldn't micro the fairy since I ran out of slots to put her skills on!

So, I tried SMN, DRG, PLD, and eventually landed on AST for a long time. I found another option that was different but still fun.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

That's why it bothers me. I've HAD to swap mains with 3.0, too, and I know I'm not the only one who did so. Scholar is borderline impossible on a controller set-up at level 60. I couldn't micro the fairy since I ran out of slots to put her skills on!

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I play SCH just fine with a controller?
I have 3 and a half crossbars, and it did take some getting used to, but it works... so I wouldn't call it "impossible".

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

My concern with this is that means all bards ever only play as bards.

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No, it does not - it means that unlike the person I quoted suggested, there IS no job currently in the game that better suits the playstyle of the people who preferred the old bard to move on to. We have no ranged jobs, neither DPS nor otherwise, without cast times in the game right now. Zero, nada. It's on the same level as telling poor people to just eat cake if they lack bread, purely condescending.

That's why alt jobs aren't a solution. They're not even a tangent. That's like telling a person who prefers ranged classes to just pick a different class when theirs and every other class in the game gets turned into a melee. There are no options for that playstyle and therefore, such a suggestion is ignorant at best and malicious glee at worst.