Pld Oath's on GCD

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used.

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What you need to specify is that you're talking about current HP, not max. You're saying that if, for example, PLD/DRK stances were off GCD and all three tanks tried to switch just before a tank buster hit, the paladin and dark knight would survive (assuming the server registered it, sup) but the warrior would not because his current HP doesn't go up while paladin and dark knight mitigation applies.

And to that I say so what? Warrior should have some weaknesses just like paladin and dark knight do.

Anyway, that Yoshi-P quote is almost certainly referencing pre-rework warrior, which was just weak. Warrior might require a small amount of technical skill more than the other two tanks to completely max out offensively, but defensively it's about the same, just with more flexible options. Let's not kid ourselves here - none of this is rocket surgery and anyone who's actually doing the raids (which is the only place balance like this really matters) is probably capable of picking up any tank and figuring it out within a few hours. Even if warrior required double shoryuken inputs for some of its moves and advanced degrees in MMOlogy it wouldn't excuse imbalance.

If they really want to balance the tanks then they need to ditch Halone/Path/Delirium entirely and just make them all 10% damage down debuffs that stack with each other (but no doubling down on one). Then you can run WAR/PLD, WAR/DRK, or PLD/DRK without worrying about your healers getting one shot by the next retardedly strong J-Kick or the Living Liquid thing I can't remember. Then the only super imbalance is Reprisal but something could be done about that.

Oh also they need to make Deployment Tactics not benefit from Defiance/Conva/Mantra. It's too good.

As a longtime WAR, this is probably the one thing that feels the most awkward to me when playing DRK. This, combined with the fact that re-activating Grit costs a hefty chunk of MP, makes me stancedance far less than I probably should. But then, I'm not pretending to be a great DRK, either - WAR remains my primary tank.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

If they really want to balance the tanks then they need to ditch Halone/Path/Delirium entirely and just make them all 10% damage down debuffs that stack with each other (but no doubling down on one). Then you can run WAR/PLD, WAR/DRK, or PLD/DRK without worrying about your healers getting one shot by the next retardedly strong J-Kick or the Living Liquid thing I can't remember. Then the only super imbalance is Reprisal but something could be done about that.

Oh also they need to make Deployment Tactics not benefit from Defiance/Conva/Mantra. It's too good.

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You'd also have to do something about Divine Veil and Hallowed Ground, which by far are two of the most powerful defensive cooldowns that any tank has access to. While we're at it Sheltron, Dark Mind, and Inner Beast could all stand to be brought into parity. Every tank could benefit from a shield.

While a certain amount of homogenisation is necessary, I don't think that you need to remove their individual advantages to make them balanced. It's more important to be able to cover individual weaknesses on any given tank with alternate compositions. Delirium/Dragon Kick is easily accessible to every combination of tank (this is how every essential raid debuff should be designed). RoH is PLD exclusive, but doesn't provide as much raid utility as the other tanks' debuffs.

Divine Veil, Reprisal, and Storm's Path all have their strengths and weaknesses. DV provides the most powerful mitigation advantage, doesn't cost dps to use, and doesn't require a target, but has the lowest uptime by far. Storm's Path is the most available, but costs dps to apply. Reprisal doesn't cost dps to use and has good uptime, but requires a parry proc.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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except i never say tanks do 0 dps, something inposible, lets say 90% of total dps need it by 4 dps, ok its ok, 90% divided by 4 are 22.5% per dps plus whe have 2 tanks in scene, 1 single tank do already the half dps of a normal dps in tank mode so you get 11% there making already the 100%, even if whe take the lowest scenario and say 80% its the same 4 dps doing 20% each and 2 tanks doing 10-15%, if you add healers dps whe have a lot of dps to clear all.

and yes the conent is pretty easy to do, another think is a lot of players don't play well her jobs, dont follow well the mechanics or they dont want to do midas bcs reasons, you only need to check general disscusion, the rates only show how poor is the aceptation of alexander, whe dont need the masive dps of the war or the extra dps from the healers, bcs i my raid was pld/drk and our healers are focus on heals, call it inefficient if you want, but whe do it.

anyway i dont say nerf WAR dps, i say the job need balance in he capabilities and thats means nerf something.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DV provides the most powerful mitigation advantage, doesn't cost dps to use, and doesn't require a target, but has the lowest uptime by far.

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DV also requires a cure, so either the healer has to provide one, or the tank has to waste 3 seconds clemency/curing themselves. The key distinction between these 3 skills that makes SP much better is the fact that it is the only one that can easily be done as an OT (which could be fixed by giving it a bonus if hit from the front, but of all the problems that tank balance has, this is low on the list).

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"

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That is the problem, actually. WAR has a great skillset with a bunch of useful stuff, both for tanking and support. DRK got a copy of PLD's basic skillset with a magic twist, then a bunch of duplicated skills to just increase its own dps. DRK could easily lose 5 skills and gain slightly more potency on its combos to make up for that. Reprisal (procs are a big part of why PLD/DRK have to tank, and DRK already has Delirium for damage reduction), Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain and Plunge (could have gapcloser moved to a DA effect) are pretty much all just used for dps and waste slots. What would go in those slots? I don't know, it would be up to SE to add stuff that would make DRKs feel powerful and useful to a party. PLD could use the same on skills like Cover and Tempered Will (they're too niche) but at least it's on the right path with Clemency and Divine Veil.

I'm pretty glad I'm not NA.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used.

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In that case then the WAR has worse gear than the other two tanks... In the exact same gear the WAR would have more health (about equivalent to the 20% damage reduction), or else the healers aren't doing their job properly (even then you have the most self heals of any job).

Defiance has a 25% HP buff and 20% healing buff, which really is very equivalent to a 20% damage reduction with no healing buff, it just means that HP goes up and down by bigger numbers, the healers don't have to work any harder on tank busters. On top of this, defiance generates wrath stacks which increases parry rate (unimportant but should not be ignored), and gives you access to the unchained skill which negates the damage penalty. Remind me again why ShO is OP in comparison?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

DV also requires a cure, so either the healer has to provide one, or the tank has to waste 3 seconds clemency/curing themselves. The key distinction between these 3 skills that makes SP much better is the fact that it is the only one that can easily be done as an OT (which could be fixed by giving it a bonus if hit from the front, but of all the problems that tank balance has, this is low on the list).

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DV shouldn't be used on a whim. You plan its usage in advance, ideally with your healers. There are a lot of heals that will proc it, including AoE heals and shields. It doesn't really matter if you're MT or not. In fact, it's also the only one of the three skills that can be used in the absence of a target.

SP is more readily available (at the cost of dps), but if you need a large amount of mitigation for a single big AoE, DV is unsurpassed.

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Originally Posted by Launched

That is the problem, actually. WAR has a great skillset with a bunch of useful stuff, both for tanking and support. DRK got a copy of PLD's basic skillset with a magic twist, then a bunch of duplicated skills to just increase its own dps. DRK could easily lose 5 skills and gain slightly more potency on its combos to make up for that. Reprisal (procs are a big part of why PLD/DRK have to tank, and DRK already has Delirium for damage reduction), Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain and Plunge (could have gapcloser moved to a DA effect) are pretty much all just used for dps and waste slots. What would go in those slots? I don't know, it would be up to SE to add stuff that would make DRKs feel powerful and useful to a party. PLD could use the same on skills like Cover and Tempered Will (they're too niche) but at least it's on the right path with Clemency and Divine Veil.

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DRK's playstyle is designed to be fast paced. Blood Weapon, and the numerous oGCDs that we get are part of what give the job its style. If you want to play something which only requires you to play with half the APM, then there are already jobs that cater to that, like BLM and WAR.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DRK's playstyle is designed to be fast paced. Blood Weapon, and the numerous oGCDs that we get are part of what give the job its style. If you want to play something which only requires you to play with half the APM, then there are already jobs that cater to that, like BLM and WAR.

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DRK's playstyle is uninteresting and holding it back from being as well designed as WAR. NIN and MNK are the fast jobs, If SE wanted DRK to be fast they should have done it in a way that doesn't waste so many skill slots.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DV shouldn't be used on a whim. You plan its usage in advance, ideally with your healers.

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Thats my point, I never said that DV was bad, just not comparable to SP. There are mechanics that it is good for (every single 2H in the game, nidhoggs ahk morn and other stack mechanics etc.), but it is very situational, whereas a WAR can keep SP on the boss at all times. Thinking about it, the comparable skills are really RoH and SP, as they both reduce damage, at the cost of DPS. The difference here is that SP is better than RoH (slightly lower potency for a much better effect).

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Originally Posted by Launched

DRK's playstyle is uninteresting and holding it back from being as well designed as WAR. NIN and MNK are the fast jobs, If SE wanted DRK to be fast they should have done it in a way that doesn't waste so many skill slots.

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It depends on the fight, really. In fights where you have negligible Grit uptime, such as A7S, your BW usage pushes up your APM significantly. In fact, there are a couple of examples of early progression clears where the DRK actually marginally beats out the MNK, NIN, and MCH in terms of APM. This might also be dependent on jail assignments, but it's still somewhat surprising to see.

I love the design. It doesn't need to be childproofed. A bit of challenge is good for us.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Thats my point, I never said that DV was bad, just not comparable to SP. There are mechanics that it is good for (every single 2H in the game, nidhoggs ahk morn and other stack mechanics etc.), but it is very situational, whereas a WAR can keep SP on the boss at all times. Thinking about it, the comparable skills are really RoH and SP, as they both reduce damage, at the cost of DPS. The difference here is that SP is better than RoH (slightly lower potency for a much better effect).

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RoH is a bit of a strange one. It tends to be more of a personal benefit to the PLD than it is a raid debuff, given the relative scarcity of physical AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

RoH is a bit of a strange one. It tends to be more of a personal benefit to the PLD than it is a raid debuff, given the relative scarcity of physical AoEs.

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RoH is basically the PLD of skills (perfect really), it is great in physical fights (amazing in Thordan), and useless in magic based fights. SP is better in that it gives a 10% damage down (i.e. all damage, not just physical), AND absorbs HP from the hit.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I love the design. It doesn't need to be childproofed. A bit of challenge is good for us.

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IMO, it's less a problem of it being "challenging" and more that they shoved a bunch of DPS oGCDs... on a tank. It's like, imagine they threw Rampart, Sentinel, and [HG equivalent] on DRG - that's basically DRK in terms of playstyle. DRK functions fine, don't get me wrong, it just kinda feels like you're playing a DPS who has to be in front of the boss.

The "tanking" element of the three tanks plays out essentially the same, with slight variations depending on how many cooldowns the fight allows your particular tank. It's just a question of how quickly you can pick up and learn patterns. In terms of rotations, though, tanks, even at lvl 60, generally tend to have even simpler rotations than your typical level 30 pugilist or lancer. While any rotation becomes second nature with practice, it's just nicer to have something a bit more engaging than counting to three... or alternatively, counting to five. If you stuck Rampart, Sentinel, and HG on to a DRG, it probably would be significantly more challenging to tank on than anything we have currently.

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Originally Posted by shao32

except i never say tanks do 0 dps, something inposible, lets say 90% of total dps need it by 4 dps, ok its ok, 90% divided by 4 are 22.5% per dps plus whe have 2 tanks in scene, 1 single tank do already the half dps of a normal dps in tank mode so you get 11% there making already the 100%, even if whe take the lowest scenario and say 80% its the same 4 dps doing 20% each and 2 tanks doing 10-15%, if you add healers dps whe have a lot of dps to clear all.

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You clearly didn't understand what I said at all. SE tunes their DPS checks based on each DPS performing at 85~90% of their full potential. If you are capable of parsing for 2k on a dummy, SE tunes assuming you will parse 1700-1800 in a live fight. No real static is capable of that in a live fight. It's impossible given human imperfections and the existence of mechanics.

So while they say they don't factor in healer DPS and only basic tank DPS from auto attacks and your enmity combo, anyone that actually does the content knows that you need the DPS from tanks and healers -- especially during progression before DPS is fully optimized.

And you say A8S is easy but where is your proof? The stats disprove your statement. You can only rely on baseless statements.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

And you say A8S is easy but where is your proof? The stats disprove your statement. You can only rely on baseless statements.

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And regarding ShO/SwO vs. Defiance/Deliverance, as a PLD who switched to WAR but still tries to play both, there is no comparison.

I've said this many times already in topics similar to this one but people always ignore the full package that Defiance / Deliverance enable. You can't ignore the strength of abilities that can only exist because of the Defiance / Deliverance mechanics -- skills like Inner Beast, Equilibrium, Fell Cleave, Decimate, etc. They are as much a part of the design of Defiance / Deliverance as the innate bonuses in any tank stance. Not to mention that Deliverance does have an upfront bonus.

The end result is WAR is significantly better at managing incoming and outgoing damage through the use of their stances. They have far superior flexibility, adaptability, and control with their stance usage than the other tanks.

Before HW, I don't think there was any argument to make oaths oGCD. But, since then, the balance of tank stances has changed a lot. To me, the GCD cost of oaths is just another PLD mechanic that is antiquated and balanced based on an outdated standard.

Before, the GCD cost of SwO made sense because they paid that GCD for the AA bonus whereas WAR could drop Defiance oGCD but got nothing and lost access certain skills and their crit bonus. Now, it makes no sense because WARs can swap to Deliverance oGCD, gain a crit bonus, gain a 5% damage boost, and gain access to a TP regen, FC, and Decimate.

Before, the GCD cost of ShO made sense because they paid that GCD for the upfront mitigation whereas WAR still needed healing after swapping to Defiance. Now, it makes less sense because WARs have access to Equilibrium and have much more control over their own HP. What bonuses did ShO receive since? Outside of a slight buff which was needed, none.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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then i miss undesrtand you post, my apologize.

SE makes every DPS checks diferent for every fight, depending of many factors 2 important thinks are 1 human skill, 2 ilvl, SE makes her DPS checks for only 4 dps doing a estimated dps with a estimated ilvl and same for 2 tanks doing another estimated average dps number with x ilvl but never they max dps in dps stance , they dont make the dps check for 4 dps and a war and if you dont have a war you dont even try it bcs is imposible.

the cheeck are determinated too by the ilvl players are supose to need to clear the the floor or the trial, every extra dps you can get from tanks and healers is a bonus not a requeriment.

and i dont say AS8 in particular is easy, i say the content, including midas in general, AS8 is hard but no for the dps cheeks.