How would you change Nocturnal AST to be competitive against SCH?

@fevelle

I kind of disagree your point 3 because it would mean going back to the original spell and it's a no

I don't see the point of your 8 it's ok as it is now

And the 9 confuse me
You're asking for non stackable buff which is already the case
You cannot stack diurnal regen if there is 2 AST which is so unfair because whm can and there is no difference

And that's what displease me back during A1S because we could go as diuAst+whm but not with double diuAst
And synastrie was so strong on this fight that I wish we couble have 2 of it

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

@fevelle
You cannot stack diurnal regen if there is 2 AST which is so unfair because whm can and there is no difference

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The reason for this was if I recall, remember the whm has no mitigation outside of stoneskin. Sch has aldo, succor, sacred soil, deply tactics, virus, e4e, fey covenant. Astro has noct aspect benefic, disable, collective unconsciousness and bole. Whm has stoneskin and untraited virus and e4e. That's the reason why with two medica 2's can stack but not diu astros.

But in direction of the topic, it's hard to say. Like others have said, noct astro have the stronger shields( 341 noct aspect bene vs 300 aldo and 189 aspected helios vs 150 succor) but again, what the noct astro lacks is flexibility. They can't deply like an sch can nor dozens of the other things. It's hard to say how can you make a noct astro compete with a sch.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

8. Remove Stella and Combust II cast time to make AST as mobile as SCH while DPSing.

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SCH isn't really mobile while DPSing, tbh. I mean we have Ruin II, but using Ruin II is always a loss of DPS unless you use Energy Drain, which, depending on the circumstances, isn't always a viable choice if there's gonna be quick healing needed in the near future.

I think making AST competitive with SCH as an off-healer would be kinda simple: make the MP costs for AST's offensive spells much, much lower (instead of being the highest, afair), while also letting them change stances at will every 30 or 40 seconds. It has nothing to do with the power of the shields and barriers, but with MP management through a 10 minute fight. Doing that would still not make WHM obsolete, because they'd still have their silly healing power, and it would also not make SCH obsolete, because tbh there's no way you can make SCH obsolete.

I don't think AST is obsolete atm because Diurnal is very powerful, but giving it the chance to be a much more reliable DPS to fill the off-healer role without dilapidating its MP would help a lot of its issues, imo.

I agree with someone else that ideally both healers should be doing DPS and not having to carry the burden of main healer, but that's very difficult to do in your everyday DF group, ofc.

Except that whatever you do to fix the situation has to be nocturnal specific; as you say "diurnal is very powerful", so unless the changes only affect nocturnal to help it catch up, it'll only make diurnal even moreso.

An exclusive to Nocturnal Sect mana cost reduction on offensive spells is such an easy way to boost it up fairly. Even 10% would make a world of difference.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Except that whatever you do to fix the situation has to be nocturnal specific; as you say "diurnal is very powerful", so unless the changes only affect nocturnal to help it catch up, it'll only make diurnal even moreso.

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The thing is, imo, that if you balance AST's stances separate from each other, NoctAST is going to continue being the mess it currently is. The point of buffing NoctAST is to give AST a better use as an off-healer, right? At least that's what people in this thread are saying. I'm not saying my ideas are the end-all for possible AST solutions, but letting them stance dance while also giving them more manageable DPS would make all these variables within the class much more valuable too.

I mean, to be fair, if AST had the choice to change to regens or shields every X seconds, some skills might have to be retooled slightly for balance, such as the effects of Collective Unconscious and some others, much like the Aspected spells or Equilibrium on WAR, but giving AST all these options while at the same time buffing its DPS potential through MP management would fix a lot of these undeserved misgivings the class has within the community.

It's kind of the same principle that currently makes Scholar so powerful: lots of tools, lots of utility, lots of different things to give to the raid; but without making it a complete copy-paste of the class and giving it a very unique playstyle among the three healers.

It's gonna be so awkward fitting two extra slots onto my keyboard setup for the stances if they make diurnal/nocturnal something you can switch in combat, lol. ;-;

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Originally Posted by Rennies

It's gonna be so awkward fitting two extra slots onto my keyboard setup for the stances if they make diurnal/nocturnal something you can switch in combat, lol. ;-;

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What? AST has 32 actions you'd want access to, 31 if you take off stella but then heavy has its occasional use. 30 if you find aero not much of a benefit vs malefic II (even though it's instant and less mp for the same potency) That's including the stances but 30 or even 29 actions means you need 3 bars anyway, and 32 actions doesn't make you need a 4th.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

The thing is, imo, that if you balance AST's stances separate from each other, NoctAST is going to continue being the mess it currently is.

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Except that the only problem here is that the nocturnal stance is overall less beneficial than diurnal. So the situation is exactly the opposite of what you describe. One stance is good, the other just doesn't cut it. If you boost both, that statement doesn't change.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Except that the only problem here is that the nocturnal stance is overall less beneficial than diurnal. So the situation is exactly the opposite of what you describe. One stance is good, the other just doesn't cut it. If you boost both, that statement doesn't change.

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I think a big part of why one stance is worse than the other is because you're locked into just one for the entirety of the fight. If you could switch between the two during a battle, the difference between stances wouldn't change, but the potential of utility for the entire class would change. A lot. Of course one of them would be better than the other, kinda like how DPS stances in tanks are overall preferable than tank stances save for certain moments of fights, but it wouldn't make an entire stance pointless and irrelevant like Nocturnal is atm. Having access to regens AND shields for different parts of the fight, while also having good sustained DPS potential would effectively make Astrologian a great off-healer, which is the main problem of Nocturnal Sect currently: it was created to let Astrologian fill a role that simply *can't* be boiled down to "has shields."


This change would hardly affect how Astrologian develops as a main healer though, which would make Nocturnal Sect used less when filling this role, but it would also make it much more relevant while being off-healer, not as a perpetual stance, but as a Cooldown of sorts, much like Tank stances work for Dark Knights, for example.

One of the things that shows how bad nocturnal is, is the fact if you could change in combat there would almost never be a reason to.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

What? AST has 32 actions you'd want access to, 31 if you take off stella but then heavy has its occasional use. 30 if you find aero not much of a benefit vs malefic II (even though it's instant and less mp for the same potency) That's including the stances but 30 or even 29 actions means you need 3 bars anyway, and 32 actions doesn't make you need a 4th.

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It'll just be awkward because I've grown super comfortable with what I have. If it happens, I'll definitely adapt to it, since I actually care about my performance in the game.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

One of the things that shows how bad nocturnal is, is the fact if you could change in combat there would almost never be a reason to.

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I insist that it's only bad because you can only use either Noct or Di at a time in any given fight. Shield Oath sucks, but it is necessary for certain things: taking tank busters without heavy CDs and building and getting hate, but no one complains about having Shield Oath because it is a necessity of PLD and it does have utility for defense. It would be the same case with Nocturnal if sects could be switched during battle. You'd have on-demand instant barriers that are stronger than a regular Adloquium for TBs, an on-demand equivalent to Succor, and the capacity to be the "shields" healer for a party while also providing important HoTs by changing to Diurnal. To be honest, if you told me that I could put up regens while ALSO putting up instant shields throughout the same fight, I would think Nocturnal is the best shit ever.

If AST's offensive spells posed less MP consumption that made the class's MP manageable like Scholar's, ASTs would be able to tackle main or off-healer roles whenever they wanted, which is, I think, the point of this thread: changing Nocturnal Sect to be competitive against Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

To be honest, if you told me that I could put up regens while ALSO putting up instant shields throughout the same fight, I would think Nocturnal is the best shit ever.

If AST's offensive spells posed less MP consumption that made the class's MP manageable like Scholar's, ASTs would be able to tackle main or off-healer roles whenever they wanted, which is, I think, the point of this thread: changing Nocturnal Sect to be competitive against Scholar.

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There isn't much complaint about Shield Oath nowadays because it's been buffed for PLD to do 15% less damage instead of 20% and changing tank stances no longer breaks combos, this is just to be more competitive to DRK.

You always have regen as a Scholar because of a fairy, and on-demand party regen AoE every minute with Eos. There is so much upside to Eos over Selene this Alex Savage tier in most phases. It wouldn't be too powerful at-all to have Noct have some sort of regen, even if it's cooldown-based. Lastly, AST has the lowest MP costs of spells of the healer, plus better MP refresh than White Mage now, so that isn't an excuse either.

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Originally Posted by Beam1249

I wouldn't. I'd give up on trying to have AST compete with SCH, and make a 4th healer focused on off healing instead.

Having 2 main healers and 2 off healers is going to achieve better balance than trying to make AST compete with both WHM and SCH.

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I think Squeenix bit off a bit more than they could chew with AST stances - they can't bring both up to WHM/SCH standards, or there would be no need for WHM/SCH. They either have to give AST the same utility at the cost of raw power, of give the power at the expense of utility just to maintain game balance. Personally, I wish they hadn't copied the HoT/Shield healing styles from the other healers and tried another mechanic for AST to truly set it apart, but hindsight...

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Collective Unconscious : "Creates a wheel of fortune around the caster, granting Regen and the effect ot the following cards for any party member who enters and stay inside it. Can only be executed when a Sect is active. Auto-attack ends upon execution. Effect ends upon using another action or moving. When the wheel of fortune disappears, the effects disappear as well."

- Diurnal Sect : The Bole, The Ewer, The Spire
- Nocturnal Sect : The Balance, The Arrow, The Spear

Cure Potency : 150
Duration : 15 sec.
Cast time : instant
Cooldown : 180 sec
Radius : 10y

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I really like this, but lordy is that overpowered.

My biggest complaint about Noct AST is more about how it doesn't synergize with its own kit nearly as well as with Di AST. Here's why:

With Diurnal, TD and CO increase the time on my HoTs, meaning I can add an additional 20 seconds to a single ally for a stacked aspected benefic and helios, as well as my card effects and Wheel of Fortune.

With Nocturnal, Shields die as soon as they've been depleted, so there's really no value to that 20 second extension for AB and AH. Not only that, but those two shields don't stack with each other like Diurnal's does. I feel like no matter what you do, this glaring issue is what will leave Nocturnal in this position of "well we don't have a SCH so I guess I'll go Noct AST."

Maybe instead of the 130% shield return on AB, you get a 100% on AB and AH that can stack with each other. Imagine if the shields also regenerated in small segments, like a Shield-over-Time effect. That way, your buff extensions actually have a purpose on Noct AST's Shields.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

It'll just be awkward because I've grown super comfortable with what I have. If it happens, I'll definitely adapt to it, since I actually care about my performance in the game.

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I don't see how you do if you're saying that adding stance dancing mid combat would make you need to add an extra bar. Unless you're saying you run 3 bars with a variety of extra stuff like ethers, elixirs, and idk what else to take you to exactly 3 bars worth of actions (which I find unlikely). You're either doing that, or running 3 bars with blank spots (in which case it wouldn't be much of a change), or you're running 2 bars, which means you're deliberately ignoring actions and/or have macros that combine 2 things. Bad either way.

Diurnal AST regens stack with WHM Regens, yet Noct AST shields don't stack with SCH (as far as I know anyway). What if Noct AST shields and SCH shields stacked with each other?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

My biggest complaint about Noct AST is more about how it doesn't synergize with its own kit nearly as well as with Di AST.

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I agree on that point, but I have a variant solution in mind (I skimmed the previous pages, so I hope there's no repeats):

Have the nAST shields work with stacks, like how a boss can have several stacks of Dmg+ etc. When you use TD/CO on a shielded target, the target gains +X stacks of that shield's original value. Each stack would then replenish shields up to the original value if the shield is depleted before the timer runs out. For example:

1. Target is shielded for 100 HP
2. nAST uses TD, granting +2 stacks on the shield. Target is shielded for 100 HP, and the shields will replenish twice.
3. Target suffers 110 points of damage. 100 is mitigated by the shield and the target suffers 10 damage. The shield replenishes to 100 and two charges remain.

TD/CO would interact better with nAST, serving as utility abilities that improve the effect of an existing buff and improving mana efficiency.

How about this? Change their entire DPS and card ability arsenal for something that its something that makes more sense, their placement in levels and their effectiveness of the buffs are questionable when the focus of the job is to keep people alive and healthy, we can't be gambling with that.

First, make switching sects during battle possible.

My changes to Diurnal:
Keep it as a regen, but reduce potency of HoT ticks as they count down. A slight increase to the first and second HoT ticks maybe, to keep it consistent in the numbers?

Collective Unconscious change for diurnal: Knock-back enemies that can be knocked back out of the field when it is cast and add a regen that starts with moderate potency and increases HoT potency as the ability ticks. Remove its shield effect. Regen effect does not reset if you leave and re-enter field. The duration of the field would have to be changed so that its not totally OP.

Changes to Nocturnal: Keep its shield property, maybe change its shield potency to 120% of amount healed and once the shield runs out or is broken, person that was shielded gets healed for a little bit.

Collective Unconscious changes for Nocturnal: Add a slow, or heavy, or even sleep effect to enemies inside the field, pick one. Reduces incoming damage by 20% or more while inside and once the field dissipates either because caster moved or timer ran out, everyone inside gets healed by a little bit. No regen effect. Again, duration of field would have to be changed.

That is what I would do with regards to the sects, please don't shoot me. I have other suggestions regarding everything else but I would be here all day.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

SCH isn't really mobile while DPSing, tbh. I mean we have Ruin II, but using Ruin II is always a loss of DPS unless you use Energy Drain, which, depending on the circumstances, isn't always a viable choice if there's gonna be quick healing needed in the near future.

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Using Ruin II while running, dodging, or doing mechanics that makes you unable to stay still for 2 seconds to cast Broil is better than nothing. SCH also have Energy Drain to use while on the run.

Really don't understand people who want to change stances in combat. Are we just talking about buffing performance in 4 man dungeons? Because this buff would be downright useless in 8 mans.

If you have a scholar, there's literally no reason to use Noct at all because shields would overlap. If you have a white mage, there's literally no reason to swap to diurnal because their regens are better and being without shielding in savage/extreme content is stupid.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Really don't understand people who want to change stances in combat. Are we just talking about buffing performance in 4 man dungeons? Because this buff would be downright useless in 8 mans.

If you have a scholar, there's literally no reason to use Noct at all because shields would overlap. If you have a white mage, there's literally no reason to swap to diurnal because their regens are better and being without shielding in savage/extreme content is stupid.

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WHM + AST Regens stack. You would probably only stance dance with a WHM. The more effecient AST would stance dance even with SCH to increase the potency of their bene IIs/Helios during critical phases I feel (probably unnecessary and likely a DPS loss without diurnals speed buff or if you clip the gcd putting it back on. )

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Really don't understand people who want to change stances in combat. Are we just talking about buffing performance in 4 man dungeons? Because this buff would be downright useless in 8 mans.

If you have a scholar, there's literally no reason to use Noct at all because shields would overlap. If you have a white mage, there's literally no reason to swap to diurnal because their regens are better and being without shielding in savage/extreme content is stupid.

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I wasn't saying I want to change stances in combat; I was saying it shows how useless noct is when you wouldn't even use it much if you could.

I realy like the Suggestion of TD/CO to give schield stacks great idea to make these skills usefull

My other ideas:

1) Change the Bonus form Noct.Sect to either 5% Healing AND dammage OR 5%crit OR reduce mp cost for dammaging spells by 10% at least something usefull for dps

2) add on aspected Benefic that for (19) 21 sec after healing the target your malefic I/II will give this target a schield for about 40% (50%) dammage dealt (taking a 2600 base damage for malefic II it would be 1040 schield (1300). that is less then any hot or fairy provides and also has to be reaplied) this buff will only be active on the last target afected by Aspected Benefic

3) change enhanced benefic. I'd change it to give any damaging abilty a buff reducing the cast time of your next (Aspected) Helios by 0.5 sec stacks 5 times and can only be aquired every 5 seconds

4) make nAST a main heal focusing on schields in synergy with the new offheal healer hopefully coming with 4.0

Make N.AST's shield act like regen's reapply a shield every X's seconds. Double their durations( Or make the single target one permanent on one target, and now N.ast can provide shields an DPS.

AoE regen'ing shields, something no other healer has, an will seperate N.AST from the pack

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Originally Posted by Valknut

Make N.AST's shield act like regen's reapply a shield every X's seconds. Double their durations( Or make the single target one permanent on one target, and now N.ast can provide shields an DPS.

AoE regen'ing shields, something no other healer has, an will seperate N.AST from the pack

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That would either be incredibly broken, or not solve anything as it's not the actual issue. Outside of a crit Adlo, Noct.ASTs already have stronger shields.

I said it way back when the job was implemented, the design is a major flaw and was always going to hold back ASTs. The suggestion on the first page is perfect, forget about Noct.AST and have the 4th healer be a SCH equivalent. It was always going to be a handicap trying to make AST everything.

They are updating jobs in 4.0, and they've already said they will nerf SCH, which may even help Noct.AST a little. But I also hope they change AST quite a bit to give it something unique. Whether that's to remove Nocturnal stance completely, or give it some more focus on its buffing niche. The current design of this job is just terrible.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

They are updating jobs in 4.0, and they've already said they will nerf SCH, which may even help Noct.AST a little.

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Source? D:

Blue Mage better come out and be awesome if it's something critical. e.e

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Source? D:

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This thread has that specific part of the Famitsu interview where they talk about SCH and WAR needing to be toned down. There's nothing definite yet, but there seems to be an allusion towards both nerfing those jobs while buffing others alongside them.

They didn't say they would nerf sch
They said it's already strong so it won't have the same boost as the other (A lesser boost not a nerf)

The thing i can see them doing is removing the crit bonus
Which could be a way to equalize noct and sch
But with the new extension the main toolkit will change so...

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

That would either be incredibly broken, or not solve anything as it's not the actual issue. Outside of a crit Adlo, Noct.ASTs already have stronger shields.

I said it way back when the job was implemented, the design is a major flaw and was always going to hold back ASTs. The suggestion on the first page is perfect, forget about Noct.AST and have the 4th healer be a SCH equivalent. It was always going to be a handicap trying to make AST everything.

They are updating jobs in 4.0, and they've already said they will nerf SCH, which may even help Noct.AST a little. But I also hope they change AST quite a bit to give it something unique. Whether that's to remove Nocturnal stance completely, or give it some more focus on its buffing niche. The current design of this job is just terrible.

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The problem isn't AST (well, AST was pretty bad at release). The problem is and will always be the Scholar's pet. You can add 100 other healers and the way Scholar works will always put it on top of the rest. We'll see what they do to healer balance in 4.0. But even the Dev. team has been for some time now straight saying that the fairy is the problem here.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

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I completely disagree. I don't see the SCHs pet as a 'problem'. It's part of what makes the job unique, and I'm not for all jobs being carbon copies of each other. AST was and is the main problem because the devs didn't focus on the aspect that makes it unique, instead they tried to make it a copy of both WHM and SCH.

This is why if they do add a fourth healer I'm hoping it will compete with SCH and AST can get Nocturnal Sect removed and buffed in Diurnal/Cards. There's no reason that one job should be allowed to achieve everything.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I completely disagree. I don't see the SCHs pet as a 'problem'. It's part of what makes the job unique, and I'm not for all jobs being carbon copies of each other. AST was and is the main problem because the devs didn't focus on the aspect that makes it unique, instead they tried to make it a copy of both WHM and SCH.

This is why if they do add a fourth healer I'm hoping it will compete with SCH and AST can get Nocturnal Sect removed and buffed in Diurnal/Cards. There's no reason that one job should be allowed to achieve everything.

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This isn't about uniqueness, it's about balance. Like I said in my previous post, even the Development team has come out and said that the fairy is the problem (and that it's hard to balance around). When you think of a permanent regen, unaffected in any way by Cleric Stance, of having its ability cooldowns separate from the Scholar (basically like a double cast in many instances); does that sound OK to you? I mean, the Scholar doesn't have any other HoT beside the fairy, I don't think anyone is advocating to remove the pet, but the it is obviously leagues above the equivalents of what WHM and AST have in that regard.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

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The fairy is only a problem because of AST. Back in 2.x nobody complained that the fairy was an issue, and she was even more powerful back then. The issue arises when AST was created and it's role was to compete with both WHM and SCH. Whenever they create a fourth job, they can give it the right tools to be able to mimic a constant healing output while DPSing, AST just does not have those qualities.

Or if they did focus on the buffing system, make it less RNG and more potent, AST could have gotten away with not DPSing and heavily increasing party DPS. This is what everyone had speculated would be the case when the job was released.

SCH fairy got nerfed in this expansion, so to give it another nerf again would be a clear indication that the devs don't actually have a clue what they're doing with the job. I still think giving AST a major buff to it's card game, and making a fourth healer that has the tools to be an off healer would be the way forward.

I understand SCH is the best healer at the moment, but I don't consider it leagues above WHM or AST because they don't fulfill the same role. (Not including Noct.AST in this because that's just a mess.)

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

but I don't consider it leagues above WHM or AST because they don't fulfill the same role. (Not including Noct.AST in this because that's just a mess.)

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They do fill the same role, SCH can main heal, there are plenty of SCH solo heal videos out there, the problem is SCH can also "Off heal" which is something only SCH can do. Stop acting like SCH has been slotted to some role because it hasnt, WHM an AST have. WHM more then AST because of mana issues. You could intern have an AST just DPS an entire fight well madly searching for Ewers, guess who doesnt have to take away raid wide healing and buff just so they can half-assed DPS? SCH

Sch the Infinite, healing,MP and best shields class. But boo hoo they can't spam Indom non stop the heal a party. I have never had to spam Helios or Medica to heal a party but I keep being told its a thing so I should be happy an shit. Guess what I have done though, ran out of MP.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

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Okay firstly relax.

And Scholar most certainly is in a role. You will never see a progression group use two Scholars, and so you will never see a Scholar main healing when there is a White Mage or Astrologian in the party. Your argument about solo healing is completely irrelevant as these are generally done after content is irrelevant or with a group that clearly knows exactly what to do 100% of the time. As Astrologian solo healed A3S back when it was relevant, does that make the job overpowered? I think not.

Every job in this game fits into a role. Astrologian is trying to fit into two, but has failed in the off-healer slot when compared to Scholar. Also, maybe don't listen to people telling you to spam heals, learn the job and optimise it on your own. Then you'll see which job fits into which role for yourself.

Edit: Also what are these mana issues you're talking about? This isn't 2.x, literally none of the healers should struggle with mana unless they're constantly raising people. Astrologian may arguably have better MP regen than Scholar with their LA buff. Please do some research at least before you make random claims.

I feel AST, overall, was a conflict of ideas from the developers and the community. AST came out during a time where the healers were told not to dps so much by removing accuracy from their gear, yet give us content that had high dps wall in which healers HAD to dps to get over them. Thus, even today, AST in both sects feels like a Main healer with just enough time to slip into cleric for combust and combust II.

I've been batting ideas around in my head since reading this post and several related and i cannot think of a way for Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation to work, personally when i use N.AST i try to shield only during tank busters, large AoEs, or special mechanics (Damage down debuff during A5S). but that's it, so there is less chance to use those abilities overall compared to the regens Diurnal provides.

As for changing the shields, i personally would like to see a damage reflect using Nocturnal, like if the shield expires due to damage absorbed, 50%-75% of that shielding would be damage dealt to the last source. That way since AST has a more difficult time stance dancing they can effectively increase their dps outside of cleric while not being completely OP.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

And Scholar most certainly is in a role.

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Wrong

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

You will never see a progression group use two Scholars

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All them Double WHM and double AST groups though. Taking SCH"S JERBS. Pointless.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Your argument about solo healing is completely irrelevant

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It's not, SCH could Main heal. WHM has higher Potency nukes so why isn't the WHM Off healing? Cause Mana, Cause Fairy, Cause SCH OP.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Edit: Also what are these mana issues you're talking about? This isn't 2.x, literally none of the healers should struggle with mana unless they're constantly raising people. Astrologian may arguably have better MP regen than Scholar with their LA buff. Please do some research at least before you make random claims.

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AST does not have better regen with out Ewer, and if your using Ewers on anything but spreads or redraws you costing the group DPS. once again SCH never has this delemma. SCH's are never going to ask them selfs " Well shit should I use my fairy, or infinite mana, or double casts or stupid amount of utility? Sure why wouldn't I there is no down side if I do"

Once again SCH isnt slotted to a role. When I'm paired with a WHM or AST as WHM or AST were 100% a weaker group because SCH exists. If SCH is paired with a SCH/AST/WHM whats the issue? There isnt one. The same is true for PLD and DRK, but not WAR. WAR/WAR no issue PLD/DRK your gimped.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

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I'm a little worried your profile says lv60 Conjurer, as this means you should have some knowledge of healing at least. If you think dual SCH is a viable pairing, I would strongly suggest you actually play the job and see what everyone else does.

As mentioned before, no one is saying SCH isn't the strongest of the healers at the moment, however the problem is in the fact that none of the other healers are competitive with it as an off healer role. By no means does a SCH out-heal a main healer WHM or AST.

I can't tell whether you're talking about random dungeons and hests or actual raids. Because what you've said so far does not reflect in end game raiding at all. And for clarity, when people talk about balancing it is generally directed towards the end game raiding scene, not dungeons that are extremely lenient on all jobs.

I feel like you are simply talking about dungeons, so have your rant but there really is no point for me to respond when I'm talking about the end game meta.

The pet isn't a problem from a healing perspective, it's a problem from off-healing / DPS-ing perspective. Which is the whole point of the problem, from the N AST perspective, since it cannot be as good of an off-healer.

Because with the pet, you get heals WHILE you DPS.

Give N AST a sticky buff that leech heals the target it's on, based on actions you perform. Each Malefic heals the target for 130 potency. Or something. It being the AST's own skill gives you a bit more control than the SCH has over his fairy, as you can select the target you want it to go on, but a bit less pure healing output. Each class still has a unique 'feel' to it, each class is slightly better at one aspect of the skill (healing output vs control), but both have what currently only SCH provides: healing at the same time as DPS.