Confusion: Archer to Bard? Where is the Ranger Job?

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Originally Posted by Lavani

This has to be by far, the worst sense of balance I have ever read. A game is not balanced because class "A" is stronger than class "B" and "C" for X amount of time, and then nerf class "A" so much that they are no longer viable.




As long as ARC is a competitive source of damage with those changes then yeah, I can live with playing my ARC :D. It would be nice to get an advanced job for that type of play style though.

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easier to nerf one class then make the other stronger

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Originally Posted by grandm

easier to nerf one class then make the other stronger

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Yeah, but what you stated was that nerfing a class so much like how archers were nerfed is somehow justified because of how OP they were to begin with. That is bad game balancing. If one class is too powerful it needs to be nerfed down to be on level with the rest, not below them.

what i said was, is why i think they got nerfed. i'm not justifying nothing.
i do believed archers got nerfed coz they were over powered. i do believe the easy way to deal with an over powered class is to nerf it. i'm not saying its fair or right. but it is easy, and the result is you don't see 2 out of 3 ppl with bow's anymore. like it or not it worked

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Originally Posted by grandm

archers got nerfed coz they were far to powerful. any1 that don't think they were can't have noticed that 2 out of 3 ppl had a bow on their back. so if they nerfed archer coz it was to powerful, there not likely to make a super powered ranger are they

balance is why you are not getting a ranger

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Explain this sentence then? How is it balance to not get a ranger class that is a viable DPS? We're not asking for a "super powered ranger". We are asking for a viable ranged physical DPS class, one that is seperate from a support character.

BRD PLS :)

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Originally Posted by Lavani

Explain this sentence then? How is it balance to not get a ranger class that is a viable DPS? We're not asking for a "super powered ranger". We are asking for a viable ranged physical DPS class, one that is seperate from a support character.

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how is it balance to have the strongest dps being the one that can stand back and relax in battle. greater range should mean less power that seems fair to me

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Originally Posted by grandm

how is it balance to have the strongest dps being the one that can stand back and relax in battle. greater range should mean less power that seems fair to me

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Thats generally the descrition for most wizard/black mage type classes. They are generally accompanied by a mellee counterpart. Thats why the call them Damage Dealers, which has iconically been a staple archtype in MMOs since there inception. Tanks tank, healers heal, Buffers buff, Batteries refill MP/TP, Crowd controllers control the flow, but Caster/Mellee damage dealers don't get to do damage ?

They don't exactly "relax". Good DDs stay in the safest location at an optimal range. Put out the strongest, most consistant damage they can, while maintaining a ballance just below the peel limit (the limit before they over damage and peel the mob off the tank). This takes as much skill as any class. Figure in the spells/abilities that deagro, they have to use them accordingly and find a fine balance.

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Originally Posted by grandm

how is it balance to have the strongest dps being the one that can stand back and relax in battle. greater range should mean less power that seems fair to me

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Though I do agree, it also isn;t very reasonable in a game of teamwork, and needing to make sure every class can be useful...
so logically speaking, if we want them to range, and getting the benefit of being out of AoE range, while also doing dmg... I can only assume the DEVs also thought, why not give it buffs to compensate?

I would then think this is what lead to "ARC becomes BRD".
(Honestly, BEFORE it was ever announced ARC > BRD, I had come to this conclusion myself.)

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Originally Posted by grandm

how is it balance to have the strongest dps being the one that can stand back and relax in battle. greater range should mean less power that seems fair to me

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You clearly have not read any of my posts.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Thats generally the descrition for most wizard/black mage type classes. They are generally accompanied by a mellee counterpart. Thats why the call them Damage Dealers, which has iconically been a staple archtype in MMOs since there inception. Tanks tank, healers heal, Buffers buff, Batteries refill MP/TP, Crowd controllers control the flow, but Caster/Mellee damage dealers don't get to do damage ?

They don't exactly "relax". Good DDs stay in the safest location at an optimal range. Put out the strongest, most consistant damage they can, while maintaining a ballance just below the peel limit (the limit before they over damage and peel the mob off the tank). This takes as much skill as any class. Figure in the spells/abilities that deagro, they have to use them accordingly and find a fine balance.

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Try reading this one instead.

Ok the real answer, they only have 6 classes and they wanted to make them fit the standard roles, melee dd, caster dd, tank, healer, and support.

So they basically had to make one caster DD, and make one DD support, they realized that they couldnt make any of the other DD support, but thier are some precedents for a support ranged class, also it would solve the issue of archer being too OP in DD with the least risk of any job.

one day they may add a ranger offshoot to archer, but not today. Dont worry though, theres a good chance bard will overall be a really powerful job, combining buffing with decent damage, is a pretty good pick, especially since no one else will have the ability to do any noticeable status boosting, and they will probably have good CC options.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Thats generally the descrition for most wizard/black mage type classes. They are generally accompanied by a mellee counterpart. Thats why the call them Damage Dealers, which has iconically been a staple archtype in MMOs since there inception. Tanks tank, healers heal, Buffers buff, Batteries refill MP/TP, Crowd controllers control the flow, but Caster/Mellee damage dealers don't get to do damage ?

They don't exactly "relax". Good DDs stay in the safest location at an optimal range. Put out the strongest, most consistant damage they can, while maintaining a ballance just below the peel limit (the limit before they over damage and peel the mob off the tank). This takes as much skill as any class. Figure in the spells/abilities that deagro, they have to use them accordingly and find a fine balance.

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mages tend to have multiple useful party skills, and the pure DD mages tend to have no other useful abilities, and generally really dont outdmg melee dps overall. They may see some big numbers, but when you add the consistent dmg of melee, and lack of casting times, usually ranged is not the highest DPS caster or not.

And yeah ranged attackers advantage is range, i think it makes perfect sense that the ranged damage dealer is not the best DD. Melee will always have to either avoid attacking at times, or take AoE dmg and status, whereas an archer, in most situations can stay in one place and spread consistent dmg

heres what bard could bring to the fight, the safest damage with a good tank (the greatest ranged distance attack in game belongs to archer mages have less range, and less hp)
superior CC abilities, also at the greatest range,
burst damage (they need to build this back into the class)
and buffs.

if a physical ranged class is to be on equal DD footing with melee, they are going to have to lose somewhere else, defense is irrelevant, so where do they lose?


now this is not me saying archers dont need changes, right now they have no real synergy, they arent that entertaining, even if there dmg is not the highest, the class as it is, doesnt make sense within itself, other than being a ranged physical attacker. The nerf to multishot makes it so its questionable whether its better than shooting a regular shot at all, other than getting a first hit. It really has no interesting mechanics anymore, and its enmity reductions are a bit redundant, now that it isnt the craziest dps, or even a large burst damage.

still needs work, but imo shouldnt be equal dps wise with others, especially not the bard

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Originally Posted by Physic

one day they may add a ranger offshoot to archer, but not today. Dont worry though, theres a good chance bard will overall be a really powerful job, combining buffing with decent damage, is a pretty good pick, especially since no one else will have the ability to do any noticeable status boosting, and they will probably have good CC options.

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I guess i'll have to unsubscribe until that class is added to the game, if ever.

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Originally Posted by Physic

And yeah ranged attackers advantage is range, i think it makes perfect sense that the ranged damage dealer is not the best DD. Melee will always have to either avoid attacking at times, or take AoE dmg and status, whereas an archer, in most situations can stay in one place and spread consistent dmg.

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That's why they design encounters with more variety of spells for the boss. There can be both melee and ranged aoe spells, Ifrit already does this to an extent.

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Originally Posted by Physic

if a physical ranged class is to be on equal DD footing with melee, they are going to have to lose somewhere else, defense is irrelevant, so where do they lose?

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Again more dynamic encounters. Ranged classes, DD and support alike usually take care of any adds or extra jobs during an encounter. For example in the batraal encounter, I was always in position to bring the skeletons to our designated kill spot. Being ranged i was able to quickly target and hit them before they got to anyone else. I was also always the first one standing in the circle to deactivate his defense followed by either mages or a melee depending on the group make up. In short, encounters can easily be designed to break away from the faceroll of simply standing in one spot doing damage, without having to remove the ranged DD altogether.

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Originally Posted by Physic

still needs work, but imo shouldnt be equal dps wise with others, especially not the bard

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It should be an equal dps, that's called balanced game design.

"ARC needs to be a DPS it's the only way it can be used. I'm leaving till they implement." What about the people who liked Bard and wanted to play that while having some solo abilityand damage on the side? But no, it's all about you. Cherry bye <3.

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Originally Posted by Vyncent

I just found out that the progression of classes will see Archers utilizing the Bard job. I'm not sure I understand why this is the case. Does some other company own some sort of "Ranger class" trademark?

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Most likely because Archer is Ranger, just a different name.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

I guess i'll have to unsubscribe until that class is added to the game, if ever.



That's why they design encounters with more variety of spells for the boss. There can be both melee and ranged aoe spells, Ifrit already does this to an extent.



Again more dynamic encounters. Ranged classes, DD and support alike usually take care of any adds or extra jobs during an encounter. For example in the batraal encounter, I was always in position to bring the skeletons to our designated kill spot. Being ranged i was able to quickly target and hit them before they got to anyone else. I was also always the first one standing in the circle to deactivate his defense followed by either mages or a melee depending on the group make up. In short, encounters can easily be designed to break away from the faceroll of simply standing in one spot doing damage, without having to remove the ranged DD altogether.



It should be an equal dps, that's called balanced game design.

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balanced in what way? if they can build mechanics that have a ranged attacker taking the same risks as a non ranged attacker sure, but I ve yet to see that in this game or others i have played. But the real reason they are getting bard is because they wanted to give every class a role, and they realized they had no support role, and a lot of DD roles.

So yeah you got to go for what is good for you, if you re all about high powered ranged physical dps, then yeah you probably got to take a long break before they will release that.

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Originally Posted by Lakefingers

"ARC needs to be a DPS it's the only way it can be used. I'm leaving till they implement." What about the people who liked Bard and wanted to play that while having some solo abilityand damage on the side? But no, it's all about you. Cherry bye <3.

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No one is saying they should not have a bard class, people don't seem to understand that. I can also use your own words to re-explain what i've been saying "What about the people who like ranged physical dps and want to play that?"

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Originally Posted by Physic

balanced in what way? if they can build mechanics that have a ranged attacker taking the same risks as a non ranged attacker sure, but I ve yet to see that in this game or others i have played.

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It is balanced because there will be a viable class that fits the type of play style of different individuals. Just because there are no current encounters that have a ranged attacker take the same risks as a non ranged does not mean there won't or there shouldn't be any.

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Originally Posted by Physic

But the real reason they are getting bard is because they wanted to give every class a role, and they realized they had no support role, and a lot of DD roles.

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Yes I know why they are getting BRD, im not saying they shouldn't i'm saying there should also be a ranged physical DPS that is viable. Not the current ARC we have now>>. I've been saying this from the start but people don't seem to understand that.

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Originally Posted by Physic

So yeah you got to go for what is good for you, if you re all about high powered ranged physical dps, then yeah you probably got to take a long break before they will release that.

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I'm afraid I will have to :(. I was starting to enjoy the game, until I got to level 50 and people didn't wan't anything to do with Archers, unless they were friends or LS members from pre nerfbat. If SE wan'ts to alienate that demographic, it's their game I guess.

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Originally Posted by Reliquia

Did you just call BRD weak in FFXI? You know that BRD was the most sought after jobs for years in FFXI, it was a very busy and important job because the support was always good. After what the PT members wanted you could basically give then just about any status benefits. BRD was one of the best job additions in terms of balance, what you refer to as it beaing "weak" was the power to strengthen just about anyone, including itself.

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I meant weak as in their damage potential thus the air quotes ", in terms of their role as support in a PT and how sought after job was in XI yes they where very strong.
However in raw damage or survability they where one of the weakest classes in any MMO I've ever played.

I kinda like this direction, it's like getting XI's Corsair early, and it makes a lot more sense for Gridania's lore. Let the Pew Pew Ranger class come in when we can equip double-barreled shotguns.

Just wait and see what they have in store for the class changes.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

Most likely because Archer is Ranger, just a different name.

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Where do you base this incorrect assumption?

Marriam-Websters says:

Rangers are persons who range over a region to enforce law or regional rule

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Fighters trained in close range fighting and raiding tactics.

Encyclopia Britanica says:

Ranger units originated during the French and Indian War (1756–63), when the British formed special units of expert woodsmen and marksmen to range the forests on scouting, screening, and harassing missions.

Ranger referes to one who ranges an are not one who uses range weapons.

One could only say that EVENTUALLY there will be a "Ranger" "Hunter" "Marksman" etc etc job.

Musketeer will be a class so there will be even more opportunities for "Ranged" jobs. ie. "Cannoner" "Engineer" etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Where do you base this incorrect assumption?

Marriam-Websters says:

Rangers are persons who range over a region to enforce law or regional rule

or

Fighters trained in close range fighting and raiding tactics.

Encyclopia Britanica says:

Ranger units originated during the French and Indian War (1756–63), when the British formed special units of expert woodsmen and marksmen to range the forests on scouting, screening, and harassing missions.

Ranger referes to one who ranges an are not one who uses range weapons.

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Are you serious dude? I'm refering to rangers in FFXI or other mmos which plays exactly like archers do now.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It's likely that neither Archer nor Bard would have fared well in XIV alone. - However, since I'm not the type of person to make a claim and not back it up, a bit of a history lesson and update on MMO building.

Ranged DPS is hard to fit into modern MMO mechanics, where classes have more responsibilities than they used to. In early MMOs, especially over dial-up, battle was basic, laggy, and slow - every class's job was simple. It had to be. Either take damage, do damage, make people take less or do more damage, or heal people who are taking damage. Today, that's not the case. Every job has more responsibilities. Hate rotations, skillchains, snap judgment on single-target heals, timing on "support" abilities - but ranged DPS remains largely unaltered. Stand back, hit hard, don't get yourself killed. While every other job gets more complex, ranged DPS still just stands off to the side and tries to not get hate. This can't continue to be the case; it's not fair, it's not balanced, and it throws the responsibility scale way off.

This is related to, but the flip-side of, the problem that plagues non-damage support classes such as Bard. Jobs that DPS but have support abilities (crowd control, hate management, acute cures, etc.) fare better now than ever - we've brought in the mechanics of split-second timing, positioning, etc. However, non-damage support faces problems from two directions: One, like Archer, it's hard to expand its responsibilities without expanding its capabilities, non-damage support classes still just buff and run (sometimes pulling, but in XIV there really isn't much "pulling"). In order to remain relevant, these classes have to take part in battle to a more complex degree.

Most importantly, in FFXIV, where every class should be able to hold its own solo; at the very least, either the starter class, or the job it evolves into, need to be combat capable. Support-to-Support class-to-job evolution would leave the player helpless to do anything alone.

The solution here, as far as SE is concerned, was to combine the responsibilities of these two jobs, ensuring their continued relevance in the modern MMO age. I think it's a brilliant idea; the job sounds fast-paced, multi-faceted, fun as hell, and their concept art is BEYOND GORGEOUS.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Archers in this game, even now, rush into battle, do damage willynilly until the dot goes red, and then just stand there until it goes away. When someone runs off without paying attention and gets aggro? it's usually an archer. When someone's not paying attention and takes hate? It's usually an archer. A little more responsibility, ironically, isn't going to get them (or me) killed.

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Wow WONDERFULLY written. i must say i was one of those who lvled up ARC then heard about bard and was a little sad. But in thinking about it it could become a fun job as long as i can still do goos DPS and then buff to help the party. It would be like Corsair (which was crazy fun as hell the job did crazy DPS and buffed the hell out of the team lol)

Im excited

i think they are doing it because of the lack of mage style jobs/classes the game as of now. they needed to add more and this was easier then putting in a whole new class. this is all speculative of course but its the only thing i could come up with.

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Originally Posted by DNO

Wow WONDERFULLY written. i must say i was one of those who lvled up ARC then heard about bard and was a little sad. But in thinking about it it could become a fun job as long as i can still do goos DPS and then buff to help the party. It would be like Corsair (which was crazy fun as hell the job did crazy DPS and buffed the hell out of the team lol)

Im excited

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It might be fun, I agree. Unfortunately, it's not what I wanted to get out of a ranged class. I expected a damage dealing class that specialised in ranged attacks. If the damage is being dropped and ARC's are being pushed towards more of a support role with BRD, I'm not sure whether I would stay with ARC.....Maybe I'd need to take a break from game or just concentrate on my crafting until Musketeer comes out because while I don't mind playing the other classes from time to time, none of them interests me as a long term main. It's sad really.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Remember "Good DD" doesn't mean "In Demand Job." Sure, BRDs were highly sought jobs... but stick one alone in a room with a Gigas and ... well... a few notes won't be the only thing that end up flat.

That was part of my point above; BRD can't survive in XIV on its own merits.

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Aren't jobs supposed to be specialty for party play, not solo?

EDIT: Also, what is the difference between archer and ranger? How do people envision it?

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Originally Posted by Arya

It might be fun, I agree. Unfortunately, it's not what I wanted to get out of a ranged class. I expected a damage dealing class that specialised in ranged attacks. If the damage is being dropped and ARC's are being pushed towards more of a support role with BRD, I'm not sure whether I would stay with ARC.....Maybe I'd need to take a break from game or just concentrate on my crafting until Musketeer comes out because while I don't mind playing the other classes from time to time, none of them interests me as a long term main. It's sad really.

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if none of the classes interests you why are u playing? should of been quit

any1 complaining there is not ranged DPS. just stick an M in front of it and go a blackmage

Just give them an opportunity to explain before you bash it. It might have a really cool reason for being the archer job. I've read that some jobs will require multiple classes leveled to unlock. Maybe if they do plan on having a ranger in the future, it will be a archer / musketeer hybrid. Or maybe with the current system, they just couldnt do ranger the way they wanted it to be and are waiting for 2.0...

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

Aren't jobs supposed to be specialty for party play, not solo?

EDIT: Also, what is the difference between archer and ranger? How do people envision it?

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If bowharps are exclusive to Bard they can make crossbows and make them exclusive to Ranger. Assuming they add Ranger.

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Originally Posted by DNO

if none of the classes interests you why are u playing? should of been quit

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Because there is or was a class that was interesting to him, and many other people. Now it's being pushed into something that is not fun for those people.

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Originally Posted by grandm

any1 complaining there is not ranged DPS. just stick an M in front of it and go a blackmage

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Because mages are the most boring class in the game. Fun is a relative term, what's fun for me, is not always going to be fun for everyone else and vice versa.

How do people know it's not fun? Have they had a public/private testing of the jobs that I dont know about?

Archers = Bards soooooo Botanist = Ranger! yay! I am kidding and just poking fun!

Every class will eventually get more than 1 job so Archer's second job will probly be Ranger.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

Archers = Bards soooooo Botanist = Ranger! yay! I am kidding and just poking fun!

Every class will eventually get more than 1 job so Archer's second job will probly be Ranger.

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archer second job = dancer lol

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

How do people know it's not fun? Have they had a public/private testing of the jobs that I dont know about?

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Because BRD is not a DD no matter how you spin it. I played my whole FFXI career with my main DD job being ranger from 2003-2009. I like being a ranged damage dealer so I go to FFXIV and I naturally pick archer because its pretty much the same thing with a different name. Now my specialize job is going to be BRD? What the hell? Bard by its name is nothing close to being a main DD job. Surely people can see that going from archer -> brd makes no sense in any game.

I truly am hoping that another specialized job of archer will be musketeer/ranger for those that want to be a pure DD. But if it turns that the only opinion is bard, thats really messed up.

This isn't XI. We dont know how it will play in XIV

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

This isn't XI. We dont know how it will play in XIV

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So they going to call it bard but it could actually play like a Necromancer? You see where I'm going with this don't you, bard definition has nothing to do with range attacks but short swords and songs. Besides they are moving to traditional Final Fantasy names and class types.

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Originally Posted by JudgeN

So they going to call it bard but it could actually play like a Necromancer? You see where I'm going with this don't you, bard definition has nothing to do with range attacks but short swords and songs. Besides they are moving to traditional Final Fantasy names and class types.

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I dont see where you're going with it actually. Unlike most of this god forsaken community I keep an open mind for everything until I personally have tried something out before judging it.

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

I dont see where you're going with it actually. Unlike most of this god forsaken community I keep an open mind for everything until I personally have tried something out before judging it.

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I'm saying the name of the job has meaning that reflects the type of roles it will have in the final fantasy universe. You know what a bard plays like in other final fantasy do you really think its going to be a DD in this game? When they stated themselves they wanted to follow more traditional final fantasy roles with the proper job names?

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Originally Posted by JudgeN

I'm saying the name of the job has meaning that reflects the type of roles it will have in the final fantasy universe. You know what a bard plays like in other final fantasy do you really think its going to be a DD in this game? When they stated themselves they wanted to follow more traditional final fantasy roles with the proper job names?

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of course it's not going to be a heavy DD. Will it be at least decent though? Probably.