Too many gameplay restrictions

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Same. Tired of seeing the "if you dont like it quit!" types. People are offering helpful suggestions and rightfully so. They want to enjoy the game and fill those empty gaps and fix things.

Anyway yeah, I agree with OP totally, these are things that should have been addressed quite some time ago.

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Yeah before more people go all wah wah go quit the game:

http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/...to3_thumb2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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Not going to quote everything you said since all what I had to say is in the open post.
Instead, I'll say that I can't understand how >you< couldn't be happier by changing all of these things, that would make the game less clunky and frustrating, more relaxing.
You totally went defensive on this, complaints and feedback exist to make the game better, complaints are the things that created 2.0, else we would still be playing 1.0, or this game would have already been silently dead.
Some of those things got a workaround, and if players can find a workaround, so can RMTs, with the exception that they get paid to do this and will not care at all, while we are the ones that PAY to play the game, and the only thing that's left for us is frustration.
Reporting someone because he's stopping me from teleport? Waste even more time to take revenge over this? Why shouldn't they fix this instead?
Spamming logout and login with my main and alt character to pass stuff with the bank? Why should I do this instead of mailing stuff to my alt? Why is my alt forced to stay in the same FC as me? what about people that don't have a FC or access to a bank?
Retainers are a cancer, the issues i said wouldn't exist if they separated bank and market board.
For all the rest the open post explains already my reasons.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Not going to quote everything you said since all what I had to say is in the open post.
Instead, I'll say that I can't understand how >you< couldn't be happier by changing all of these things, that would make the game less clunky and frustrating, more relaxing.**snip**
For all the rest the open post explains already my reasons.

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I didn't say that there were not QoL issues that could be improved. But your post talks of these things as if they are huge obstacles, they're not.

If you can't take the time to report someone for harassing you for interrupting a teleport, then what happens when SE fixes that and idiots who harass others for fun find another way to do it? Reporting harassment is more effective in the long run and a major part of fixing issues that relate almost entirely to player behavior.

If you have the time to play two or more characters in different FCs that are fully leveled, it would appear that you have more than enough time to pass things back and forth either via a friend or by taking a short leave of absence from your other FC, in order to use the Company chest in the other FC you are a member of. The problem I have with what you say on this and several other points is the obvious potential for abuse.

I agree there are things that are very limiting, and have become beyond annoying.

I think the top three for me would be:

- Cannot queue for anything with your chocobo out
- Cannot list items for sale on the MB in the event your queue pops while in the retainer menus - this one drives me nuts - I can be right in the middle of trying to list items when my queue pops leaving me unable to finish listing my items for sale
- The pointless cooldown wait time that has to happen every single time you change to any DOW or DOM (outside of a city) - you can go from DOL to DOH or vice versa with no issues, yet as soon as you have to change to a battle class you're forced to sit and wait the timer out. This happens almost daily as I'm gathering and a duty pops.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The problem I have with what you say on this and several other points is the obvious potential for abuse.

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Abuse, server limitation, RMTs, game balancing, are all excuses that Square Enix used to avoid fixing bad features since the game started.
If other successful MMOs got these features, without any issue, I can't see why all these things in FFXIV would be a problem, placing restrictions everywhere.
Regarding RMTs, I would agree with you if the things they say actually removed RMTs, but we all know that gilsellers are everywhere and are not intimated at all by these "counter measures", in fact we often see threads of people complain about the excessive gil sellers spam in game.
Regarding your previous post, I didn't answer my own questions in the open post, I anticipated some of the answers I know I would get by posting this, or the reasons that SE gave us, which in my opinions are ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Abuse, server limitation, RMTs, game balancing, are all excuses that Square Enix used to avoid fixing bad features since the game started.

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In your opinion. game balance especially is a reason not an excuse. The fact that you disagree and have another opinion doesn't alter that.

Excessive gil spam in game doesn't in any way touch on the ability to transfer gil from one account to another. Gil spammers probably get around the limitation by having their bots sell common items and uncommonly high prices so the gil accumulated by a bot can be transferred to another account quite quickly without hitting the system limitation. Which BTW, is a way you could use to move gil from one character/account on a server to another character/account. Although it might generate a false positive with SE's RMT task force who are probably watching those kinds of transaction... ;)

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I agree there are things that are very limiting, and have become beyond annoying.

I think the top three for me would be:

- Cannot list items for sale on the MB in the event your queue pops while in the retainer menus - this one drives me nuts - I can be right in the middle of trying to list items when my queue pops leaving me unable to finish listing my items for sale
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I agree with all 3 you posted, this one especially.
Sometimes while changing a price in my retainer, and duty pops, I "panicked" because there are only 3 possibilities:
1. you wait for the dungeon to end and go back to change your price
2. you drop the queue, change the price, and wait for the queue again
3. you hope that someone drop the queue, so you might have some seconds to change the price before it pops again
You have almost one minute to accept the queue but during that time you are not allowed to make a price change.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

7.
Cap on raid members: Not much to say about this, I always thought the 8 man "raid" composition was too small, but this is another problem.
What i would like to see instead is the use of the flex raid system like some other games do, i think it's a great addition to MMOs that use it so the encounter scales with the number of people that you have in party.

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This is a bad idea as it makes balancing things a lot more difficult. You couldn't have mechanics such as Enumeration if the party size is very variable and it limits the creativity of the designers a lot. It also limits the competitiveness of the raids as it would always favor teams with X players over Y.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

8.
Rotations are too much scripted: This happens for both bosses and players, and i think it's more evident for dps and tanks, not sure about healers.
I never found a game where rotation were so much strict and scripted, on every boss you are forced to act like you are doing the usual target dummy rotation or you'll just lose dps, there is no other way to actually do it unless you wanna push bad dps.
3.0 made this even worse, locking abilities behind other abilities (Fire IV is just an example).

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As frustrating as they are at times, they add depth to their respective jobs. If you play well you keep your buff and are rewarded with increased DPS. If you do not play well you're punished with the loss of your respective buff and lose out on some DPS. Given these circumstances you're forced to plan your buff and ability usage around the encounter which is directly related to your awareness, knowledge and understanding of your class.

The rotation argument sort of falls into the same category. Simply doing your dummy rotation will often result in a net loss of DPS in many encounters. You have to be able to adapt your base rotation for each situation the encounter presents you with which eventually comes down to knowledge of your job.


+1 Everything else. :D

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

This is a bad idea as it makes balancing things a lot more difficult. You couldn't have mechanics such as Enumeration if the party size is very variable and it limits the creativity of the designers a lot. It also limits the competitiveness of the raids as it would always favor teams with X players over Y.

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Honestly, I don't agree with that, because they actually made some neat mechanics for 24 man raids: the recent weeping city has Ozma with very well made mechanics, then we had cerberus in WoD which is still an amazing boss in my opinion. Then we have other bosses like Bone dragon in CT which was very intuitive, because it required less of "OMG DPS HARDER!" and instead needed more team work and actual "crowd control". There is barely any real CC or kiting required in this game: the last fight I recall something like that was T7 and even then it all boiled down to "OMG DPS HARDER OR WE WIPE".

The excuse of "Well it's harder to balance" it's old: if anything making a 24 man raid more common would actually be more open to new strategies and would actually encourage more people to raid, as 8 man doesn't allow more than 1 class/job/whatever per group, heavily decreasing the chance for someone to find a raid. Although there's one other major trouble with that: the alliance system is broken as hell and, for example, it won't allow group A to heal group B with aoes and whatnot, making each Alliance separated and on their own. If they ever fix that (they won't), then we would have some nice raiding possibilities.

All I'm saying, there is potential and a lot of ideas, a lot more if you just consider that the 24 raids, while much easier, have some of the best mechanics ever created.
Strangely, the 8 man raids feel lacking in comparison, as it it boils down to "do this 100% correctly or you wipe". But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

Worse than that, you can't even interact with basic stuff while mounted.

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I think at least SE's original intention with this was to stop people crowding around like say a quest npc or npc's who trigger cutscenes while on a mount and force people to get off so at least the NPC can most likely still be interacted with.

The thought of twintania or the Zu mount or the gobbue just eclipsing the npc so you can't even remotely select them conventionally cause people stand on top of them with their mount because" Hur Durr, I'm so funneh!"
^
granted some people still do this anyway to troll by just sitting on top of an npc with the mount.

Though you can ultimately get around all that with tab targeting (not that it always likes to work.)

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Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I think at least SE's original intention with this was to stop people crowding around like say a quest npc or npc's who trigger cutscenes while on a mount and force people to get off so at least the NPC can most likely still be interacted with.

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Press X -> Removes names from players -> makes you unable to target them -> now you can click the NPC with ease.

Not sure for ps4 users, but the button is quite handy. And to be very honest, even without mounts nearby it's still insanely crowded.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Honestly, I don't agree with that, because they actually made some neat mechanics for 24 man raids: the recent weeping city has Ozma with very well made mechanics, then we had cerberus in WoD which is still an amazing boss in my opinion. Then we have other bosses like Bone dragon in CT which was very intuitive, because it required less of "OMG DPS HARDER!" and instead needed more team work and actual "crowd control". There is barely any real CC or kiting required in this game: the last fight I recall something like that was T7 and even then it all boiled down to "OMG DPS HARDER OR WE WIPE".

The excuse of "Well it's harder to balance" it's old: if anything making a 24 man raid more common would actually be more open to new strategies and would actually encourage more people to raid, as 8 man doesn't allow more than 1 class/job/whatever per group, heavily decreasing the chance for someone to find a raid. Although there's one other major trouble with that: the alliance system is broken as hell and, for example, it won't allow group A to heal group B with aoes and whatnot, making each Alliance separated and on their own. If they ever fix that (they won't), then we would have some nice raiding possibilities.

All I'm saying, there is potential and a lot of ideas, a lot more if you just consider that the 24 raids, while much easier, have some of the best mechanics ever created.
Strangely, the 8 man raids feel lacking in comparison, as it it boils down to "do this 100% correctly or you wipe". But that's just me.

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I think Weeping is probably one of the best raids to date. You can't just ZERG down any boss, you have to actually do the mechanics correctly and rely on everyone in the raid to follow along as well. I hope we see more of these mechanics in all forms of content. Clearly big groups can handle interesting and slightly more involved mechanics so I hope this is a big wake up call to Yoshi and team.

I hope with the add on support or whatever we end up getting there will be a better alliance party menu. Currently I have mine as small as possible and only use it when someone either dies or my groups tank isn't the main and I focus the main tank from another group. Right now its not very functional.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

I think Weeping is probably one of the best raids to date. You can't just ZERG down any boss, you have to actually do the mechanics correctly and rely on everyone in the raid to follow along as well. I hope we see more of these mechanics in all forms of content. Clearly big groups can handle interesting and slightly more involved mechanics so I hope this is a big wake up call to Yoshi and team.

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I think the only reason why people can't zerg the bosses in Weeping City is due to item level. Once everyone has ilevel 240+, alliances will be able to push phases and ignore mechanics. It was the same with the previous 24-man raids.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Thanks for your contribute, I think everyone knows that you can sit and even go underwater in a hot tub (depending on the race). You can even do that in (some) small rivers.
Still you can't swim in them or in the sea, which point 9 was about.

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Actually, it WOULD be really nice if they let us sit deeper into the hottubs (kinda like the oriental tub, with levels)... my miqo is very tiny, yet the water just covers her knees (glade tub). I feel like she'd enjoy a bath much more if it came up to her shoulders. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Prior to 3.0 release they stated that they was either bringing in flying or swimming, in the end they went with flying. I think I remember them stating 4.0 we will see swimming.

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It better be light speed swimming. I do not look forward to explore a whole new area/map and even collection currents while swimming (regular speed). I think that's the day I gonna quit for good, I have no time for that lol

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

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I should have been more specific, I have no quarrels with having one or two tiers for raid size, I was critiquing the idea of a flexible party size system.

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

I should have been more specific, I have no quarrels with having one or two tiers for raid size, I was critiquing the idea of a flexible party size system.

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If you mean flex raids like the ones in wow, then yes they weren't a good idea I admit, but we've already saw that 24 man raids are a possibility: I just wished that proper 24 man raids would become the real deal. It would definitely attract more people into the raiding scene (we don't have 24 jobs yet so people could stack on more than one job for the raid, like one team made of casters or one team made of melee and so on), and maybe they'd become less about "pure dps" and more about "tactics" (and we've seen some good examples). As of now, it's all about min maxing your dps output and it's just not fun.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people really like 24 man raids mechanics due to how it promotes teamwork.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

-snip-

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Weeping City of Mhach is a step in the right direction, they just really need to stay on this path and keep improving from there. But whether they do is shrouded in maybes and we'll sees for now.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

4.
Can't send stuff to alts: Yes I know what some of you will say, there is no reason to create another character we can do everything on the same character etc. etc.
Only on paper though, in practice it's totally different.
Some reasons to make another character? Fully gear other jobs(we can't do this on 1 character with the lore cap), level specialists that you don't have on your main.
Sometimes you might think it would be fun to create another character and enjoy trying another race/city, so if I got a lot of stuff on my main I should be able to send stuff on my second character to boost him, "obviously" this would be too cool and is not allowed,
to stop gilsellers(?) This reason is getting old, the real reason is probably because it would be harder to sell additional retainers since people would start using alts to store extra stuff, still this is probably the only MMO i encountered that does this. Not to mention that retainers are probably the worst thing ever created, a bank would have been much better, and here comes another issue with retainers.

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You do realize you're essentially asking the devs to implement a way around the very limitations they intentionally impose right? Why would they do that? They don't want you being able to gear up multiple jobs all at once because people will inevitably farm that content until they have what they want then stop doing it. As for Specialists, they have outright said they do not like omnicrafters, thus they try to limit them by forcing interaction with other players if you're unwilling to level an alt.

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6.
Gil limits

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RMT abuse isn't an excuse, but a reality. They limit large gil transactions because it allows GMs to flag suspicious activity. Should someone suddenly receive say, 20 trades in a row. A GM can easily keep an eye on both parties to see whether that was a simple series of trades within the rules or someone having bought gil online. They also don't want people transferring to the larger pop servers. While it certainly won't prevent everyone, this may keep some players from relocating to Greg or Balmung.

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7.
Cap on raid members: Not much to say about this, I always thought the 8 man "raid" composition was too small, but this is another problem.
What i would like to see instead is the use of the flex raid system like some other games do, i think it's a great addition to MMOs that use it so the encounter scales with the number of people that you have in party.

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This necessitates significantly more work on each individual fight as they now have to balance based on a random party size, which either limits certain mechanics or forces their removal entirely. Simply upping the HP totals would turn bosses into damage sponges instead of interesting fights. This game is designed to be scripted to a certain extent. They aren't going to radically alter these mechanics because that isn't the game they want. You will always see a set number for party composition in synced content, be it 4, 8 or 24.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You do realize you're essentially asking the devs to implement a way around the very limitations they intentionally impose right? Why would they do that? They don't want you being able to gear up multiple jobs all at once because people will inevitably farm that content until they have what they want then stop doing it. As for Specialists, they have outright said they do not like omnicrafters, thus they try to limit them by forcing interaction with other players if you're unwilling to level an alt.

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There is no reason to let us level up all jobs on the same character if we can't fully gear them all up, this is simply bad designed.
You would think that at least they would let us help our alts to play a different class, but no, they do the opposite.
Devs didn't implement any limitation on leveling alts, or they would have made impossible to create secondary characters, or make specialists server locked or something like this.
What they do is simply make our life harder.
You actually would play twice as much if you could boost your alt sending him stuff, instead of forcing people to start from scratch like a new player.

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RMT abuse isn't an excuse, but a reality. They limit large gil transactions because it allows GMs to flag suspicious activity. Should someone suddenly receive say, 20 trades in a row. A GM can easily keep an eye on both parties to see whether that was a simple series of trades within the rules or someone having bought gil online.

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And in the same way they could easily check any 10/20mil transaction.
We pay, and they get paid, they are the ones that should make our life easier, not the other way around.

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They also don't want people transferring to the larger pop servers. While it certainly won't prevent everyone, this may keep some players from relocating to Greg or Balmung.

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There is a paid transfer service that gives you the possibility to transfer to ANY server, so if they didn't want people to do it they would have limited it to low population servers.
Funny you say that, since you are from balmung, you look like you are afraid of people transfering there.
Don't worry, i'm EU, i would never transfer there.

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This necessitates significantly more work on each individual fight as they now have to balance based on a random party size, which either limits certain mechanics or forces their removal entirely. Simply upping the HP totals would turn bosses into damage sponges instead of interesting fights.

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Yeah, the same bosses that people complain that are unbeatable 90% of the time because of huge dps checks, or instant kill mechanics.
Probably flex raids wouldn't work in this game, but as I said in the open post I also think that 8 man raids are way too small to create a real raid strategy.
At the moment we have more jobs than actual "raid" spots.
Making the raids bigger would probably give us more interesting mechanics, if anything, surely not worse than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

There is no reason to let us level up all jobs on the same character if we can't fully gear them all up, this is simply bad designed.
You would think that at least they would let us help our alts to play a different class, but no, they do the opposite.
Devs didn't implement any limitation on leveling alts, or they would have made impossible to create secondary characters, or make specialists server locked or something like this.
What they do is simply make our life harder.
You actually would play twice as much if you could boost your alt sending him stuff, instead of forcing people to start from scratch like a new player.

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Currently, you can clear all but A7 and A8 Savage with the crafted ilvl 220 set. That is essentially 98% of the game's overall content. If people could fully gear up, many would farm whatever piece of content, then never do it again. Such is why tomestone limitations exist. Helping your alts negates the whole reason that limitation exists. They may as well just remove it completely in that case.

Because most players won't level an alt.

Most people will pick their preferred jobs, farm Alex once a week on all three, then stop doing it the moment they get everything. Not only does this potentially certain content's lifestyle, it sees people rolling against other players who may not want to level an alt. Say I take my DRK to farm Alex. I don't main it nor will I at any point this patch cycle, but I could gear it up and roll against other DRKs who do intent to main it. Sure, the same can happen now, though you'll generally want to week until you're geared your main to do that, thereby allowing other players to do the same.

And frankly, it keeps people subbed. SE isn't going to make it so people can do literally everything in 2-3 months then stop playing for another three. I'm not saying this wouldn't be convenience to have--- would certainly make leveling my alts easier. But I sincerely doubt that'll ever allow it for the reasons I said.

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And in the same way they could easily check any 10/20mil transaction.
We pay, and they get paid, they are the ones that should make our life easier, not the other way around.

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Most RMT transactions are 10-50M, which would amount to 3-5 trades in your scenario. I do that many just crafting furniture for friends. Comparatively, 1M means you'll have to do 10-50. One is far more suspicious than the other. No offense, but is it really such a massive inconvenience you need to make multiple trades?

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There is a paid transfer service that gives you the possibility to transfer to ANY server, so if they didn't want people to do it they would have limited it to low population servers.
Funny you say that, since you are from balmung, you look like you are afraid of people transfering there.
Don't worry, i'm EU, i would never transfer there.

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They aren't going to blatantly preventing players from transferring, however that doesn't mean they won't take measures to help deter it. The Raid Finder was designed specifically in response to the mass influx Greg saw due to it being the "unofficial" NA raid server. And I don't care what you do. I transferred to Balmung myself to play with friends.

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Yeah, the same bosses that people complain that are unbeatable 90% of the time because of huge dps checks, or instant kill mechanics.
Probably flex raids wouldn't work in this game, but as I said in the open post I also think that 8 man raids are way too small to create a real raid strategy.
At the moment we have more jobs than actual "raid" spots.
Making the raids bigger would probably give us more interesting mechanics, if anything, surely not worse than what we have now.

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DPS checks =/= boring damage sponges.

Perhaps. I would argue otherwise considering the sheer complexity of mechanics Savage throws at you. To each their own, really. Most raiders seem to be pretty content with Midas and Weeping City. So... what's there to add here? More of either would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Perhaps. I would argue otherwise considering the sheer complexity of mechanics Savage throws at you. To each their own, really. Most raiders seem to be pretty content with Midas and Weeping City. So... what's there to add here? More of either would be nice.

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Since I did some Coil back in ARR, I'd like to ask "What complexity is there?" From what I see on videos and youtube, it's always all about damage and nothing else. Sure it had some sort of "strategy" to them, but it all boiled down to "nuke as fast and without dying as much as possible, while avoiding these or that mechanic". And if you fail it's a insta-wipe...is this strategy? I've played raids where failing a mechanic didn't necessarily spell wipe, am I getting old or something? Last I played a raid that wasn't in this game, a Raid consisted on following tactics while doing a minimum amount of damage and possibly without dying, or else it would become harder, as in "You can still beat it but it'll take longer". When a dps dies in a raid here you might as well wipe, since the dps check usually fails at this part (usually, not always).

Also, dps checks in most mmorpgs weren't in every fight: they were used for gear checks more than anything else, which means that it was usually 2 or 3 at best in every raid...although most raids I played had more than 4 bosses.

Plus Azrael IS right: we don't have raid spots, they are jobs. I have constantly witnessed my static changing people for the sake of the raid, because he wasn't doing his best, or because his playstyle didn't work, or whatever was wrong. Sure some of them legit played badly or not good enough, but it was something that I never witnessed in an MMORPG since the early days of Ragnarok (I dunno, maybe because I'm EU and my server is NA: raids in EU seem to be much more easy going).
But yes, as far as I'm concerned a raid spot acts like a job in this game: you miss it once you might lose your spot. I know that because during FCOB I had to use another computer because mine was broken, and if I hadn't that ready I would've probably be replaced. After all the hardships to join it and learn the mechanics, to be replaced for just missing one day? That would be insane.

But if players are fine with how things are, I guess it's fine. But bigger raids would mean more people to raid with, just saying...

1.
To slow RMT but should be increased to 2-5 million at this point.
2.
This is to prevent dub items. This was an issue in FFXI where people could glich the system and make 2 of an item.
3.
Should be free for all. Doesn't matter what GC you are from
4.
one again this is a RMT issue.
But I do disagree with it. I would love to not have to gear up an alt if I was playing 2 characters but the system does discourage this because one character can max everything Well used to be able to stupid Master Doh
5.
How long does it take you to put items on the market. While interacting with retainers ones again DUB items If they where still on the AH someone could buy it and you remove it from market.
6.
Agreed but I don't know the market on all servers and if I switched with my 18m gil to a poor server I would be rich but on balmung 18m isn't a lot
7.
Raiding in FFXIV is hard, where 1-2 mistakes are unrecoverable at times, More players more chance of mistakes.
8.
This one I fully agree with.
9.
Y-P talked about this. And that 4.x would like be water based and that they may add this function. but I am guessing only in new zones.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Since I did some Coil back in ARR, I'd like to ask "What complexity is there?" From what I see on videos and youtube, it's always all about damage and nothing else. Sure it had some sort of "strategy" to them, but it all boiled down to "nuke as fast and without dying as much as possible, while avoiding these or that mechanic". And if you fail it's a insta-wipe...is this strategy? I've played raids where failing a mechanic didn't necessarily spell wipe, am I getting old or something? Last I played a raid that wasn't in this game, a Raid consisted on following tactics while doing a minimum amount of damage and possibly without dying, or else it would become harder, as in "You can still beat it but it'll take longer". When a dps dies in a raid here you might as well wipe, since the dps check usually fails at this part (usually, not always).

Also, dps checks in most mmorpgs weren't in every fight: they were used for gear checks more than anything else, which means that it was usually 2 or 3 at best in every raid...although most raids I played had more than 4 bosses.

Plus Azrael IS right: we don't have raid spots, they are jobs. I have constantly witnessed my static changing people for the sake of the raid, because he wasn't doing his best, or because his playstyle didn't work, or whatever was wrong. Sure some of them legit played badly or not good enough, but it was something that I never witnessed in an MMORPG since the early days of Ragnarok (I dunno, maybe because I'm EU and my server is NA: raids in EU seem to be much more easy going).
But yes, as far as I'm concerned a raid spot acts like a job in this game: you miss it once you might lose your spot. I know that because during FCOB I had to use another computer because mine was broken, and if I hadn't that ready I would've probably be replaced. After all the hardships to join it and learn the mechanics, to be replaced for just missing one day? That would be insane.

But if players are fine with how things are, I guess it's fine. But bigger raids would mean more people to raid with, just saying...

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Deducing how to deal with mechanics or mitigate damage is strategizing. Most youtube videos are clears, where the group already knows what they need to do. If you watch live raids on twitch or look for video breakdowns like what Elysium posted here, you get a better idea of what strategies are involved to beat these fights. In the end, all fights in every game can be boiled down to "do x amount of damage as fast as possible and don't die." Complexity comes from the mechanics they throw at you and how quickly or efficiently you can avoid them. And groups can survive a death or two, depending on the phase.

This is true of every game though. People will kick out players in GW2 or WoW for sub-optimal performance if that's the kind of group they are. The harder the content, the higher the expectation from players. Midcore to casual statics are more likely to accept a string of wipes compared to hardcore groups, especially if they're all friends/FC mates. Switching out people whose playstyle differs enough to hinder the raid isn't necessarily a bad thing. If they can't adapt, then it's probably better for them to find another group where it won't be an issue. That said, I wouldn't raid with a group demanding enough I'll be kicked if I have a legitimate reason I can't show up. Most groups though will ask for a temp to fill your spot that week only. I see a lot of those in PF or even on Reddit. So it sounds like you just had a very impatient group.

But you also get more mistakes. Funny as it might be, Weeping City Savage would... well, live up to its name. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That said, I wouldn't raid with a group demanding enough I'll be kicked if I have a legitimate reason I can't show up. Most groups though will ask for a temp to fill your spot that week only. I see a lot of those in PF or even on Reddit. So it sounds like you just had a very impatient group.

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No, this was in all statics I saw. Yes saw, because I couldn't join most of them: they required far too much for me to join, things like "must know everything until last phase" or "3 mistakes then kick". I was touched by lady luck to get a group back the FCOB back then, without mentioning that I had to ask for a carry for t9 (because my previous static wouldn't care about helping me). Again, it's all a job: if you're useless, you're not going to be picked in. Except this is a game: last I checked it shouldn't be this...stiff and hostile? Even in other games I can join groups without knowing tactics: people would explain me what to do.

And this leads to another big issue I have with the raiding scene in this game: the experience required. Not even a day after 3.3 hits and people already demanding nidhogg ex super duper expert people to finish it. I get it, they beated the boss, good job and I'm glad for them: I'm not blaming them for requiring expert people for this and I'm sure everyone would do the same, but how can I possibly join a group if I have zero experience? Join a learning team? No! They also require experience! Yes even training groups requires me with knowledge of the fight. How can I receive experience if I need experience? It's philosoraptor all over again!

And this could be fixed with larger raids, even 16 man, to allow more people to learn things up. Smaller groups means also less room to make mistakes: if you screw up A or B it's over, it's usually not going further than that. But with 16 or 24 it's easier to learn without necessarily wipe it. Yes it also means there's more chance to mistakes, but also allows more room to error. You don't see Machi wipes if one dies or something, but while doing my raids of coil in ARR if someone died, it was game over. DPS died? Fail the dps check. Healer dies? Not enough mana, and tank dies. Tank dies? Not enough hp to receive a tank buster (ah without mentioning that you also lost your tanking stance back then! Wasn't that lovely?). You say you can recover, but I never, EVER, witnessed a recovery during my raiding times. I was a tank anyway.

So until then, I'm not going to touch raiding scene of this game: it's far too toxic and too hostile for my tastes (maybe because I'm EU? As I said, I always had nice teams in other games and would explain me what to do. In this game is very rare). However I'm also not going to change their ways of playing, but just wished that it allowed more people in it and just be a tiny bit more open for everyone to learn things up. And yes there's the raid finder: it doesn't work.

Speaking of "do x amount of damage as fast as possible and don't die", the problem are the dps checks and not the amount of damage itself. Infact this also leads to the problem of parsers, which is heavily required beacuse of how basically everything is a damage check. This isn't related though as there are a ton of topics in the forums about this, but it shows how it could be fixed by making the raid fights less about outputting damage and more about actual tactics.

If you don't agree, then so be it anyway: I experienced raiding in ARR and I'm not going to go over that stress over again.
And no, I'm not new to raiding.