Astrologian - do you really want to rely on RNG in your group healer?

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Good v Bad AST player? With this mechanic the class starts to move into lucky v unlucky AST player for best performance.

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I told you this already in my reply of the first page. But, here it goes again. A good AST is not the one that has "Good luck" in cards. For starter, what do you consider having good luck in cards at all? All of the cards are useful except The Spire. (Well, perhaps a melee will need it in A7S final phases, but still...) And if you get The Spire and you are a good AST, you will always have redraw ready for it. THE REST OF CARDS can be used in your favor and always give you advantage in any situation you want, tell me a single card you think it's not useful and I'll turn down your argument.


Nowadays, AST are the ones that have the BEST MP MANAGEMENT in good hands. It's no longer a SCH thing. Having a good MP pool allows you to do miracles in needed times and to spam higher tier cures when totally needed. Not everything is about to get a balance card.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Now now, AST is fine and all, but let's not act like your job's shit doesn't stink or something.

A skilled *player* is almost always going to be superior than an unskilled one, let's leave it at that, shall we?

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...I never was acting like my "job's shit didn't stink"? I was simply using common sense to make a point. AST is, by all means, superior to a WHM (in the right hands): it boasts both the healing power potential AND provides party buffs that in some cases almost seem broken. (Seen a good BLM with Arrow or a MNK with Balance?)

Doesn't mean WHM is useless, it just means that AST has more party utility and offers more than just big heals. A WHM will always boast the highest raw healing power, but that doesn't mean an AST can't compete with proper timing and CD usage.

...I do have all three healers equally geared and play all relatively frequently. (Which is why I'm even able to make such an assertion in the first place.) If I thought AST was the end all be all or the "best" healing job, I wouldn't have bothered to touch the others. -_-

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and that's me being polite. The rng in the cards can be manipulated and if you still can't make use of a terrible draw(hell I'm sure the warrior main tank can make use of that enhanced spire) nothing prevent you from keeping consistent healings. AST as a healer is more than fine, it's very active and a whole lot of fun when you manage to get a good draw and weave it all into a flawless set of buff + healing. The fact you are so adamant in refusing to accept the rng speak of your incompetence.

The only thing AST fail at is placing a mitigation spot that still allow them to heal.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

And it's a healer (note - generic term) that has introduced an rng gimmick for 6 of the class abilities - for no apparent reason other than to bring 'roll the dice luck' into a class.
Class performance should be down to player skills, not rng for around 20% of the class skills list.

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...Oh boy. ._____.

For "no other reason": how about to provide a healer that is capable of buffing the party unlike the other two? And providing a unique set of tools for doing so? And to demand GREATER PLAYER SKILL by requiring the player to think fast as to how they plan to use the cards they've drawn? (Because as previously mentioned, yes, EVERY card is useful.)

AST is almost entirely based on a person's skill, ability to adapt, and make use of the utilities offered by their class. Also... More skills =/= superior class? Especially when those "rng skills" are as useful as any of the others, regardless of which ends up popping?

I should just stop now though. If you're still spouting on about this, your head is too thick for the facts anyhow. I just pray that any potential ASTs don't read this thread and stop at the first post. And that YOU never pick up the job...

Idk, I've been against card RNG from day one. I think the OP is a bit misguided on how MUCH card RNG hurts/impacts Astrologian play, but aside from the DPS boost cards I don't really feel any satisfaction from using them. Good group comps can't rely on them, which makes them just a "bonus". Not an awful thing, inherently, but certainly not what I thought I was getting when they showcased the job pre-HW.

Healing-wise it's fine, except that it's clear the devs designed the job with the Diurnal/main healer role in mind. Even in Noct it's probably still better as a main healer rather than an off one.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Healing-wise it's fine, except that it's clear the devs designed the job with the Diurnal/main healer role in mind. Even in Noct it's probably still better as a main healer rather than an off one.

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I was thinking about that honestly. Noct AST has strict advantages over SCH in the sustained healing department (namely a Cure II and a Medica, but also a subsidized MP cost to all heals.) Combust II and Combust cannot miss and have high potency for only one gcd each(450,240). Cards can be used efficiently to barely clip the gcd after most heals or not clip at all after an instant aspected Beni.

This is the same sort of synergy for dps increase that SCH has as the off healer while micro managing Lily, but in the main slot. They also have a fair chance of obtaining an Ewer to help their WHM along their DPS course.

WHMs have amazing potential as the off healer. They have astonishing AOE and single target burst. Medica II and Regen let them prep during downtime to keep the raid healthier longer. MP and the fact that SCH happens to be weaker in sustained healing, but stronger healing while raising dps contribution, forces WHM into the main heal slot for efficiency.

Noct AST should be the healer that spends most of their time using Ben, Ben II, Helios (raw healing boosted by the sect) while their WHM supports with regens. They should be filling the role of SCH in mitigation only, not vying for the direct dps SCH provides. The off heal WHM and the ASTs cards are what would remove the DPS need of an SCH.

One thing to note is that AST cards are not all about DPS only. The cards offer utility to your party such as ewering the BRD to sing Foe's longer, Spiring the tank in a long fight that may need TP (saving things like goad to TP hungry DPS), Spearing the NIN/BRD so that their oGCDs are available quicker. These are all helpful tools that smoothen the run overall and something that is not provided by other healers.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

One thing to note is that AST cards are not all about DPS only. The cards offer utility to your party such as ewering the BRD to sing Foe's longer, Spiring the tank in a long fight that may need TP (saving things like goad to TP hungry DPS), Spearing the NIN/BRD so that their oGCDs are available quicker. These are all helpful tools that smoothen the run overall and something that is not provided my other healers.

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All of those are still DPS increases. xD Balance and Arrow just typically scale higher.

OP, I noticed you've yet to get a job to 60. Are you basing your opinion on AST with your personal experience with the job? If that's the case, you may wish to consult some of the guides available to see how the job is played before completely writing it off. Some of the best healers I've seen in content have been ASTs. When you learn how to utilize all the skills available, it's amazing what can happen. Like everyone's been saying, the cards are a bonus. They aren't the meat of the job.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

One thing to note is that AST cards are not all about DPS only. The cards offer utility to your party such as ewering the BRD to sing Foe's longer, Spiring the tank in a long fight that may need TP (saving things like goad to TP hungry DPS), Spearing the NIN/BRD so that their oGCDs are available quicker. These are all helpful tools that smoothen the run overall and something that is not provided my other healers.

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I just don't think they're very impactful because they're not reliable, is all. They're nice, but not a single group would be able to structure around them at any given time (ie, a raid group dropping BRD/MCH because they have an AST). This is more what I mean when I say that the cards are disappointing on a strategic level. It's not a case of "gitting gud" or anything like that - it's that there's not really a safeguard against Spire > Royal Road > Spire > Redraw > Ewer when what would have really helped your group was an AOE Bole. "Good" Astrologians will adapt with what they get, but to call that skill is a bit disingenuous, IMO. A "good" AST can't really provide resource regeneration or DPS buffs precisely at the time your group needs it short of heavily sacrificing their other buff uptime by holding a specific Royal Road and a certain card in Spread for ages. A "good" AST will just look at an endless Spear chain as an opportunity to use their own cooldowns more aggressively, or encourage others to do the same, whereas a "bad" AST will just click off the card and grumble. Neither AST has true prevention of getting those frustrating chains to begin with, though (Spear > RR > Bole > Redraw > Spear, etc, just to highlight that I'm aware of the tools that AST DOES have - they're still not a guarantor of getting anything "good" from your draws).

I hope this makes sense. :x I'm just trying to highlight that not everyone who dislikes the RNG is some awful player who has no clue how to use the tools they're given - some of us just find that the RNG actually LIMITS strategic card usage.

Show me where I said the class is awful, my second post in this topic shows I didn't, and please have a discussion without resorting to personal insults.
My post is about the introduction of a lucky dip mechanic to 6 of the class abilities - not about any of the other skills - just about the pot luck draw system.

Now I agree they have rng mitigation abilities - put there to compensate for the rng they put in there in the first place.
So for these 6 abilities (not any others):
Step 1 - add rng -> Step 2 - take rng away. Does that really sound like the best mechanic for these 6 skills?
That to me just comes across as over-fussy, not the best in the very hectic environment of high end group content.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

That to me just comes across as over-fussy, not the best in the very hectic environment of high end group content.

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Maybe some people find it... I don't know...fun?
Fun? In my video game? No way.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

All of those are still DPS increases. xD Balance and Arrow just typically scale higher.

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Of course. :D

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I just don't think they're very impactful because they're not reliable, is all. They're nice, but not a single group would be able to structure around them at any given time (ie, a raid group dropping BRD/MCH because they have an AST). This is more what I mean when I say that the cards are disappointing on a strategic level. It's not a case of "gitting gud" or anything like that - it's that there's not really a safeguard against Spire > Royal Road > Spire > Redraw > Ewer when what would have really helped your group was an AOE Bole. "Good" Astrologians will adapt with what they get, but to call that skill is a bit disingenuous, IMO. A "good" AST can't really provide resource regeneration or DPS buffs precisely at the time your group needs it short of heavily sacrificing their other buff uptime by holding a specific Royal Road and a certain card in Spread for ages. A "good" AST will just look at an endless Spear chain as an opportunity to use their own cooldowns more aggressively, or encourage others to do the same, whereas a "bad" AST will just click off the card and grumble. Neither AST has true prevention of getting those frustrating chains to begin with, though (Spear > RR > Bole > Redraw > Spear, etc, just to highlight that I'm aware of the tools that AST DOES have - they're still not a guarantor of getting anything "good" from your draws).

I hope this makes sense. :x I'm just trying to highlight that not everyone who dislikes the RNG is some awful player who has no clue how to use the tools they're given - some of us just find that the RNG actually LIMITS strategic card usage.

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It's fine to dislike RNG. I don't think there is an AST anywhere that likes to not draw a card they wanted. As you have mentioned, drawing a card isn't skill. Not drawing what you need doesn't make you a bad player, but getting use out of that card you drew is what makes you a good player.

With how long fights can be and the number of draws that you can make, you WILL be able to get good cards/combos. In addition, you can offer utility in between your card combos. Constantly getting spears means that's a NIN with 16 second mudras, or perhaps an extended spear to catch other longer oGCDs. Constantly getting spires/ewers means your BRD/MCH will not have to provide TP/MP which leads to higher overall raid DPS.

On the other hand, sometimes people mess up mechanics, die, or manage their resources improperly. Having a spire/ewer there could possibly save the run or at the very least, smoothen it. You may only have a 1/6 chance of getting what you need but you have a chance that no other healer has.

The more you draw, the less RNG has an effect.

You say " you WILL be able to get good cards/combos", but...its RNG. There is no factual way to eliminate the probability (no matter how small it might be) that you spend an entire fight without drawing a single Arrow or Balance. That is what I think needs addressing. A few suggestions might be these:

-Spread CD counts down the second you add the card, not use it. This means you could drop one from your Spread to instantly add another that you feel might be more beneficial for the future.

-no CD on Shuffle. You risk losing buff uptime if you want to keep fussing for the ideal cards, but for those who are good at multitasking/weaving oGCDs, it's an option.

-a CD that lets the AST draw a card of their choosing. Recast timer on this up for debate, but maybe 120/180 seconds?

I just prefer using strategy to plan for fights, and right now as an AST I don't even factor my cards when approaching progression (instead Synastry, Lightspeed, CU and CO are what come to mind). Ignoring a big chunk of my toolkit because I can't strategize around it makes me sad. Imagine if SCHs couldn't plan around their fairy buffs, nor BRD/MCH their resource regens. This is the biggest reason I want to see more AST buff changes. Being able to plan buffs for SOME parts of a fight I don't feel would be too broken.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I just prefer using strategy to plan for fights, and right now as an AST I don't even factor my cards when approaching progression (instead Synastry, Lightspeed, CU and CO are what come to mind). Ignoring a big chunk of my toolkit because I can't strategize around it makes me sad. Imagine if SCHs couldn't plan around their fairy buffs, nor BRD/MCH their resource regens. This is the biggest reason I want to see more AST buff changes. Being able to plan buffs for SOME parts of a fight I don't feel would be too broken.

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It's more like you have to plan for multiple outcomes, to look into multiple futures. Balance, plan A to the dragoon. Arrow, plan B to the Black mage. Spear, Plan C to the Bard. Something else that you find useless? Move on or use it to the extent that it can be used (Give the ewer to your coheal or yourself or give TP to your pally or monk. Instant gratification, no, but it does help the run. Fey Caress isnt as noticeable of a dps increase as you'd think, if that's what you're referring to about the other healers increasing dps.)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

It's more like you have to plan for multiple outcomes, to look into multiple futures. Balance, plan A to the dragoon. Arrow, plan B to the Black mage. Spear, Plan C to the Bard. Something else that you find useless? Move on or use it to the extent that it can be used (Give the ewer to your coheal or yourself or give TP to your pally or monk. Instant gratification, no, but it does help the run. Fey Caress isnt as noticeable of a dps increase as you'd think, if that's what you're referring to about the other healers increasing dps.)

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That's more "flexibility" than stratagem, IMO. I'm not trying to quibble, but to me, dealing with what you're given isn't so much strategy as just pure reaction. If I can't plan an AOE Bole for a raid buster, why do I even care what I draw? Just use whatever, whenever - nobody's counting on it anyway. It's not like cards just being flavor ruins AST's healing viability, but it does dampen some of my fun.

I should clarify that my issue isn't that I don't know what to "do" with cards that aren't Arrow or Balance...it's that I essentially ignore any sort of pre-planning with cards at all, which I don't think should be the case considering that they're supposed to be AST's unique healer "mechanic".

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

You say " you WILL be able to get good cards/combos", but...its RNG. There is no factual way to eliminate the probability (no matter how small it might be) that you spend an entire fight without drawing a single Arrow or Balance. That is what I think needs addressing. A few suggestions might be these:

-Spread CD counts down the second you add the card, not use it. This means you could drop one from your Spread to instantly add another that you feel might be more beneficial for the future.

-no CD on Shuffle. You risk losing buff uptime if you want to keep fussing for the ideal cards, but for those who are good at multitasking/weaving oGCDs, it's an option.

-a CD that lets the AST draw a card of their choosing. Recast timer on this up for debate, but maybe 120/180 seconds?

I just prefer using strategy to plan for fights, and right now as an AST I don't even factor my cards when approaching progression (instead Synastry, Lightspeed, CU and CO are what come to mind). Ignoring a big chunk of my toolkit because I can't strategize around it makes me sad. Imagine if SCHs couldn't plan around their fairy buffs, nor BRD/MCH their resource regens. This is the biggest reason I want to see more AST buff changes. Being able to plan buffs for SOME parts of a fight I don't feel would be too broken.

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If it's a fight longer than 5+ mins, the chances you won't draw a single balance/arrow is almost 0%. You could say the chance exists, but I have yet to do such a fight and not draw a balance/arrow or at the very least not have one ready at pull. You also have to understand that cards are a bonus on top of your solid healing tools. Your first job is to keep the group alive. The second job is to contribute to raid dps, either through your own, your cards, or both.

As Rawrz said, even if you don't draw that balance/arrow, someone is going to make use of that spear/bole/spire/ewer. Personally, the RNG is what makes the class the most fun for me. It requires me to be knowledgeable about how my cards interact with every job in the game. I understand that RNG is annoying but that's how the class was built.

People overstate the RNG aspect of AST so bad. Nobody relies on any particular card at a particular time to avoid wiping. Most of the cards are variations of damage buffs anyway. Only bole (directly) and spear (indirect offensive and defensive boost) have defensive use and aren't potent enough to make or break a strat.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

People overstate the RNG aspect of AST so bad. Nobody relies on any particular card at a particular time to avoid wiping. Most of the cards are variations of damage buffs anyway. Only bole (directly) and spear (indirect offensive and defensive boost) have defensive use and aren't potent enough to make or break a strat.

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This is precisely what I'm trying to highlight, I guess. Right now, due to their design, AST cards are just "for funsies", and I think they should be more than that. Hoping for some retooling in 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

That to me just comes across as over-fussy, not the best in the very hectic environment of high end group content.

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You phrase it this way. Other will say highly rewarding and a level of skill in a main healer that WHM is lacking.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

This is precisely what I'm trying to highlight, I guess. Right now, due to their design, AST cards are just "for funsies", and I think they should be more than that. Hoping for some retooling in 4.0.

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Which would require removing the RNG. Which means we trade 4 buttons on our bar dedicated to the cards for 8-9 buttons on our bar. They would each be required to have 1-2min cooldowns and also in the process destroy the flavor and thematics of the entire class.

The buffs are powerful, but it is due to the RNG that they are balanced. The instances where a player controls when they use a particular card, and what improvement it has on it, causes the card to take on the cooldown of similar powerful spells. Further, if that RNG was not in place WHM and SCH would drop out of popularity like rocks thrown in a pond. Why bring them when you can bring 2 AST who can keep your 2 highest DPS buffed with 1 min attack speed, damage, or ability cooldown reduction every time a burn phase comes up? While the tank always gets an extra 15% damage resistance whenever a tankbuster is coming up.

It would require the class to be crippled to remove the RNG aspect from the cards and keep it balanced with the other healer classes. To make the cards more then a helpful buff when they are available.

I think being able to reasonably guarantee some card usage once in a while is not so bad, yes. I acknowledge that removing RNG would require complete retooling not just of AST cards, but also their healing, so I don't really think that's the way to go. It's why I said I'd prefer that they just keep working on ways to let us have SOME control over buffs, like what I listed upthread. Nobody might "need" those buffs to clear things, but I'd feel better at least being able to guarantee them sometimes.

Well that is what Spread and Redraw are for. The only other way would be to add in an ability like... lets just call it Seal which allows you to remove 1 card from the possible draws until you unseal it.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Well that is what Spread and Redraw are for. The only other way would be to add in an ability like... lets just call it Seal which allows you to remove 1 card from the possible draws until you unseal it.

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This is actually why I'd like for Spread to be expanded upon (in 4.0, maybe?). With some adjustments, or the addition of multiple Spread slots, I'd feel pretty satisfied with card management overall. You'd still have some RNG, but at least you wouldn't feel obligated to squat on that Balance or Arrow hoping for a card you can RR to AOE it, or Ewer for when a run goes south and you need the MP. (You'd be able to do both!) With friendlier Spread mechanics or more slots you could "tailor" your deck somewhat to what you think you might need.

I'm not really asking for core gameplay changes or anything, just more card management. Hopefully the next xpac delivers (or at least gives us non-WHM/SCH carbon copy healer skills...).

I always enter a dungeon/trial etc with a Ewer in spread. Once I have 80% MP I pop Lumen and Celestrial and will repeat as soon as they are available. I also use collective if I find I am standing still for a few secs just till it triggers for the regen.

The only time I find where MP is an Issue is when the run is going bad and I have lots of raises but no more than SCH or WHM would.

Only change I would like is collective being able to be placed like Flaming arrow from bard. Do I need no, it would be just a nice bonus that or two spreads :P

In 3.0 I played around with the WHM a little at 60, then in 3.3 I played around on the SCH at 60 and then started leveling the AST. I have to say I actually quite like the AST even at 40. I'm not sure about later on, but at lower levels, the WHM is a very boring spam machine, and the AST feels like a WHM with a mini-game.

I don't like the WHM for the boring gameplay, and I don't like the SCH for having to manage the DoTs plus the fairy. It turns out that I like the AST for its simple mechanics and RNG-oriented mini-game. I with other jobs also had procs that are more about how to use a proc than a simplistic "is it worth it to use it now/delay/ignore".

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

This is precisely what I'm trying to highlight, I guess. Right now, due to their design, AST cards are just "for funsies", and I think they should be more than that. Hoping for some retooling in 4.0.

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No, because if they become that good then the job becomes only that good with good rng. Bad, bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

In 3.0 I played around with the WHM a little at 60, then in 3.3 I played around on the SCH at 60 and then started leveling the AST. I have to say I actually quite like the AST even at 40. I'm not sure about later on, but at lower levels, the WHM is a very boring spam machine, and the AST feels like a WHM with a mini-game.

I don't like the WHM for the boring gameplay, and I don't like the SCH for having to manage the DoTs plus the fairy. It turns out that I like the AST for its simple mechanics and RNG-oriented mini-game. I with other jobs also had procs that are more about how to use a proc than a simplistic "is it worth it to use it now/delay/ignore".

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As you get further into the job they add to that simple mini game with modifiers and extension skills. It's a lot to take in at first, but just be patient and practice. You'll love it a lot once you've got the hang of it.

>.> Astro dont heal a random amount of HP...

These Cards are random!

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Originally Posted by Kerii

As you get further into the job they add to that simple mini game with modifiers and extension skills. It's a lot to take in at first, but just be patient and practice. You'll love it a lot once you've got the hang of it.

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Well it's pretty obvious not everyone will.
All classes are important in a raid group, but there's half the number of healers compared to dps, same for tanks, making these roles even more so.
And now the idea is to have extremely criticial roles playing rng mini-games in the middle of a tough boss fight? Really?
I see players saying they don't bother with these - that just highlights this mechanic is not suited for use in the sometimes hectic, fast moving raid scenario.

If these were a one click use, and shared a common cool down people would definitely use them.

By all means have your mini-games - on your mobile phone - not in an intensive raid environment.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Well it's pretty obvious not everyone will. All classes are important in a raid group, but there's half the number of healers compared to dps, same for tanks, making these roles even more so.
And now the idea is to have extremely criticial roles playing rng mini-games in the middle of a tough boss fight? Really?
I see players saying they don't bother with these - that just highlights this mechanic is not suitable for use in the sometimes hectic, fast moving raid scenario.

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If they don't bother with them, they're a terrible AST and shouldn't be playing the job.

It's also not "playing a mini game": it's an automatic reflex and requires almost equally automatic decision making. It's something added to require MORE PLAYER SKILL.

But I must ask: since someone here said you hadn't even hit 60 with any class yet (meaning you most certainly haven't healed Alex Savage yet), why do you think you're capable of passing such judgment on a job in such an environment when you yourself haven't had first-hand experience? ESPECIALLY when you haven't actually leveled AST?

This is coming from an AST main who has most of their BiS gear and has cleared up to A7S, btw. I think I know how AST performs in Savage.

Oh. And just because you feel incapable of being able to heal and manage card buffs at the same time, or that managing card buffs is an inconvenient "mini-game", doesn't mean that raid groups shouldn't utilize AST as their main healer. I said it once and I'll say it again: a good AST is over all a better choice than a good WHM in end-game raid content. (Again, NOT saying that WHM is a bad job. -.- )

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

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You're making a wild argument of semantics to justify your unreasonable opinion. I was rather specifically encouraging Zfz to continue playing the job because they seem to enjoy it. I'm not much further than you on it (I looked your character up), and honestly the cards are just part of my skill rotation. I heal when I need to heal, I dps when I don't need to heal, and I draw cards and deal with them as they come up. I can't imainge Miyha would disagree with that mindset. It is after all a part of Astro's kit and rotation.

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Originally Posted by Kerii

You're making a wild argument of semantics to justify your unreasonable opinion. I was rather specifically encouraging Zfz to continue playing the job because they seem to enjoy it. I'm not much further than you on it (I looked your character up), and honestly the cards are just part of my skill rotation. I heal when I need to heal, I dps when I don't need to heal, and I draw cards and deal with them as they come up. I can't imainge Miyha would disagree with that mindset. It is after all a part of Astro's kit and rotation.

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I absolutely agree. :>

Also, any new/future ASTs who may be looking here and reconsidering the job: don't. It does have a slightly higher learning curve than WHM, but it can be a lot more fun with the card/buff management. The negativity toward the class is coming from someone who has no idea what they're talking about: note that those who do have repeatedly pointed out how they're wrong.

It doesn't take a lvl 60 to work out that rng introduced as a gimmick has no place in a raid healer. Lvl 60's don't just suddenly get some remarkable insight that no one else can see, as though others haven't had years of raiding in several mmo's over 15+ years. In fact the effort v reward of past mmo's would probably cause half of this player base to quit. Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Priests, Clerics, Chloromancers, Mystics... raided playing all these and more in structured raiding guilds.

I agree that the skills should be used - they are overshadowed of course by the class's other abilities, but that doesn't mean they are useless (well mostly). The topic here is how they are called up - the introduced pot luck mechanic, the lucky dip, rng, click and hope, call it what you will.

With these skills, if rng is with you, you'll perform better than if rng is against you. That to me is wrong. Class performance should be down to the player, not click - scrap it, click - swap it, click - scrap it, click - store it - just for the chance to use a minor ability.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

It doesn't take a lvl 60 to work out that rng introduced as a gimmick has no place in a raid healer. Lvl 60's don't just suddenly get some remarkable insight that no one else can see, as though others haven't had years of raiding in several mmo's over 15+ years. .

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That's fine, but RNG isn't tied to their healing ability. Infact WHM and SCHs arguably have more RNG tied to it through procs and crit shields.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

It doesn't take a lvl 60 to work out that rng introduced as a gimmick has no place in a raid healer. Lvl 60's don't just suddenly get some remarkable insight that no one else can see, as though others haven't had years of raiding in several mmo's over 15+ years. In fact the effort v reward of past mmo's would probably cause half of this player base to quit. Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Priests, Clerics, Chloromancers, Mystics... raided playing all these and more in structured raiding guilds.

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People are mentioning your level, because you also are saying things like this:

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Well it's pretty obvious not everyone will.
All classes are important in a raid group, but there's half the number of healers compared to dps, same for tanks, making these roles even more so.
And now the idea is to have extremely criticial roles playing rng mini-games in the middle of a tough boss fight? Really?
I see players saying they don't bother with these - that just highlights this mechanic is not suited for use in the sometimes hectic, fast moving raid scenario.

If these were a one click use, and shared a common cool down people would definitely use them.

By all means have your mini-games - on your mobile phone - not in an intensive raid environment.

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You haven't even raided with the job, but you're making assumptions about how effective it is compared to other healers. Other people who have raided with the job have put these worries to rest for you. The randomness of the cards doesn't affect AST in the way you think it might. A good AST has no problems juggling their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

It doesn't take a lvl 60 to work out that rng introduced as a gimmick has no place in a raid healer.

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How would you know? You have zero actual experience in end-game raid content, and it this rate, it will be a while before you do. (If you even manage to get a group with how ill-informed and stubborn you are.)

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Lvl 60's don't just suddenly get some remarkable insight that no one else can see, as though others haven't had years of raiding in several mmo's over 15+ years.

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You're right: they get it through a great amount of time playing their class in end-game content and learning by experience. And hun, this isn't all those other MMORPGs you've played. I've played MMOs myself for around 10 years, and there is absolutely NOTHING that makes AST an incapable raid healer. But since you even brought "general MMO experience" up and think it makes you qualified to criticize a class you have NO idea about, I'm guessing you're one of... those gamers...

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

In fact the effort v reward of past mmo's would probably cause half of this player base to quit. Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Priests, Clerics, Chloromancers, Mystics... raided playing all these and more in structured raiding guilds.

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...Yup. Definitely one of those gamers.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

I agree that the skills should be used - they are overshadowed of course by the class's other abilities, but that doesn't mean they are useless (well mostly). The topic here is how they are called up - the introduced pot luck mechanic, the lucky dip, rng, click and hope, call it what you will.

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All well and good if you don't personally like the RNG in the card buffs, but to assert that they are unsuitable for end-game content just because YOU don't like it is simply ignorant. As has been said numerous times (which it seems you've ignored since you are almost repeating yourself now), the RNG element has NOTHING to do with an AST's raid capabilities and healing. If anything, it adds an extra UTILITY for people to use to give the class more to offer and add an extra element of CHALLENGE. (Because yes, each card is useful, and the player needs to make an instant decision as to how the card is going to be used.)

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

With these skills, if rng is with you, you'll perform better than if rng is against you. That to me is wrong. Class performance should be down to the player, not click - scrap it, click - swap it, click - scrap it, click - store it - just for the chance to use a minor ability.

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Not really. Your group might have slightly higher DPS. If you/your co-healer are awful at MP management, a Ewer might make things easier. You might boost the TP of a DPS in a fight like A7S when it's really needed, or offer tanks shorter CDs on their defensive skills. But even if you have "not so great" RNG with your card draws, it makes ZERO difference in the performance of the class. Like none. Zip. Zilch. What makes the difference is the player KNOWING THEIR CLASS and knowing how/when to use their CDs, and KNOWING THE FIGHT and when/how much damage is going to come out. The cards are just an extra thing to manage (and extra advantage for the group) and add an extra CHALLENGE to the class, to require more of that "player skill" you seem intent on insisting doesn't exist with AST. When is this going to get through to you?

Now I'm starting to see why AST is considered the most challenging healer to play, since even "MMO veterans" like yourself seem incapable of grasping such a simple concept.

People need to stop to rely on Astrologians who just try to fish Arrow and Balance Cards... Ewer/Spire for Royal Road. This is simply Bullshit.

Astrologians that are good and love their Job do know what to do with every Card and not to mention, they also know how to react if they just drew a Card. Royal Road it? Give it straight away? Save it since the Boss will be invincible for a moment? I don't say there is no RNG involved when it comes to Card Drawing, yet... what you do with the Cards is the Factor of becoming a good Astrologian. Like I stated in the first Sentence... these Astrologians are just horrible.

I'd say, AST is in a damn extremely fine position as a Healer right now.
I do Main this Job and I simply love it and just because there is a bit RNG mixed in ( and it's not much RNG unlike SCH / WHM ) doesn't stop me from playing this amazing Job.

Cards are just a small factor, have you seen all the insane Tools Astrologians have? Synastry? Time Dilation? Disable? etc ... etc ... Synastry put on the Main Tank beats Divine Seal and Illumination and this is no Joke.

Honestly between WHM and AST (Don't have SCH unlocked xD) AST is my go to everytime. I used to main WHM but after playing AST I can't even bring myself to level WHM, that and ESOs hunting is taking the leveling roulette. I said it before but yeah the cards may have a bit of a random and as others have said, as long as you know what to do with each card the moment it is pulled you have nothing to fear with us. Can't really add more to this than my backing that AST is capable healer than should not be discouraged. Even when AST was "under powered" and people basically despised it or even refused to allow them I was able to change peoples mind because how well I used it, with the buffs they have given to us since we are as capable as our healing brothers and sisters or possibly more so.

As a SCH main and somebody who has raided all healer roles in end-game raids:

The RNG for a Crit'lo is a lot more 'factoring' than Cards. Getting a free Cure II is a lot more 'factoring' than Cards.

But everybody in this thread has already mentioned that, lols. Healing RNG is a lot worse than Card RNG, and AST has like none healing RNG.