Seperate the Grind from Item creation

Another pointless post.... look, if crafting is super easy or fun, everyone would be doing it and thus there would be zero demand in market as everyone can made everything and gil would lose its value. .

sat·is·fy - to fulfill the desires, expectations, needs, or demands of (a person, the mind, etc.); give full contentment to

ef·fort - exertion of physical or mental power

skill - the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

re·ward - something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc.

This system offers NONE of the meanings of these words that seem to be so prevalent in this forum. I am with many others on the basis of replacing the current system with another but for now the current system at least employs two of those four apparently popular words defined above. Unfortunately it seems that all four are needed to make everyone happy because they are all dependent on each other to be fully realized. And that is a difficult threshold.

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Originally Posted by Nakira

Why not do something similar to the battle classes?

You get party buffs at 4 people and 8 people, can also give a crafting buff (and a gather buff) too. And since recipes have levels, everyone in the party on a crafter class gets the xp when a person finishes, as long as they're within 10 levels of the highest crafter. This isn't much different than battle classes, you get xp for a kill, as long as you're on a dom/dow, even if you didn't even touch a mob. It's not that far of a stretch to give xp for a party of crafters, even if others didn't touch the synth or are different crafter classes. Can even make them chain, if each crafter finishes within the chain limit. I think that would make it more fun for a group of crafters, gives them the ability to party, converse with others, and it's not so mind-numbingly boring.

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And to actually contribute to this "conversation" so I'm not inevitably trolled. This is the best option I've heard yet along with the quest based progression. The problem with that taking far too long to develop content for.

Or you know they could just continue forward and implment the split crafting system like yoshi was talking about in one of his recent interviews. A quick easy side for general item creation/skill ups. and a more in depth harder version (probably what we have now) with a higher chance of creating high quality goods.

I don't think that 'offline leveling will never allow PS3 players to catch up' is actually a valid statement. There's vastly fewer things to put XP into in XIV than there are in EVE.

I actually really like this idea, if only because it's the first actually wide-ranging solution I've heard of to eliminate the grind from crafting while keeping it interesting.

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Originally Posted by Aistaraina

You obviously haven't been here long.

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I think you meant:
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb...hh11o1_500.jpg

well let's see you want ideas you can look through the forums as there has been many suggestions the time in here. the problem yoshi didn't listen to the ideas and instead is putting in a system that more benefits the people that botted their crafts to r50, got max level, and have no clue how to use their skills or what skills are best.

if you want some suggestions i will be glad to give them to you, but the fact is they have already made changes to move away from a more rewarding crafting system with the recent changes. the changes benefit the people that botted to r50.

The current crafting system features a white-knuckle battle between durability and progress/quality. Except that you can get away with standarding away on auto-pilot. I suggest improving the current system by making exp gain from a synth depend MUCH more heavily on quality. Furthermore, allow for exp chains as long as you gain 100+ quality on a synth your level or higher. Or alternatively, a chain bonus for making multiple HQ in a row, but probably a bigger bonus since it would be more random.

Current System

exp_gain = (250 + 50 * level_difference) * (1.0 + 0.001 * quality_gain)

Crafting EXP formula link.

Proposed Change

* Cut the base exp of 250, maybe down to 100 or so.
* Increase the quality factor by a factor of as high as 10.
* Allow exp chains for consecutive high quality synths.

These changes would make players at least play the mini-game we have to get best exp while synthing.

Crafting Guild Leves

Guild leves would be more interesting if there were some in-game reinforcement for the efforts. Something like increased NPC effectiveness in hamlet defense battles as a direct result of the armor and weapons crafted for them through leves. Or some kind of crafting reputation and reward for aiding the Ala Mhigoan refuges. As it is, Blackbrush may need an endless supply of boots and food, but there is no in-game reflection of that supply being met or not.

if this was implemented I wouldnt play nearly as much, and that is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

The current crafting system features a white-knuckle battle between durability and progress/quality. Except that you can get away with standarding away on auto-pilot. I suggest improving the current system by making exp gain from a synth depend MUCH more heavily on quality. Furthermore, allow for exp chains as long as you gain 100+ quality on a synth your level or higher. Or alternatively, a chain bonus for making multiple HQ in a row, but probably a bigger bonus since it would be more random.

Current System

exp_gain = (250 + 50 * level_difference) * (1.0 + 0.001 * quality_gain)

Crafting EXP formula link.

Proposed Change

* Cut the base exp of 250, maybe down to 100 or so.
* Increase the quality factor by a factor of as high as 10.
* Allow exp chains for consecutive high quality synths.

These changes would make players at least play the mini-game we have to get best exp while synthing.

Crafting Guild Leves

Guild leves would be more interesting if there were some in-game reinforcement for the efforts. Something like increased NPC effectiveness in hamlet defense battles as a direct result of the armor and weapons crafted for them through leves. Or some kind of crafting reputation and reward for aiding the Ala Mhigoan refuges. As it is, Blackbrush may need an endless supply of boots and food, but there is no in-game reflection of that supply being met or not.

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addition 1.

this i like. there was also an idea that the starting quality of the synth should not change due to hq materials being used. here's a basic example.

now:
hq materials used = @160 durability and 300quality.

changed:
hq materials used = @200 durbaility and 0 quality.

these would require you to actually play the game and use the abilities to get an item as a higher tier item. in other words, no more standard to completion then massive amounts of touch ups. they seem set on using a hq system that has a 100% hq rate so why not let the hq rate be entirely dependent on the quality of the synth.

now:
get 50 quality and touch up touch up and get a +2, but get 300 and after touch ups get nq.

after:
get less than 100 quality and get nq with a small chance at a +1, get to 100 quality and get a sure +1 with a shot at a +2, get to 150 and get a +2 with a shot at a +3, and get over 200 and get +3 gear.

this would actually require someone to make the gear using their abilities for a chance at the higher tier of hq items. this would work well in my eyes with the additional ideas you had for crafting chains and basing the sp off synths off the final quality. these should be level based, of course, and not a r49 weaver mass producing r1 yarn for 300 sp. they would have to be like battle as in within 10 ranks or the sp gained is 0.

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addition 2.

add a spot in the crafting guilds in which people that are looking for a certain item and cannot be found in the wards order it from the npc there. the crafters could come in and pick up orders placed by other players through the guild and create the item for the price the npc sells the item for. they could get guild marks, exp, and gil from supplying those requested items. it would be a nice way for crafters and other players to relay what is needed in the wards as well and keep the other classes from waiting weeks looking for that one piece of gear.

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addition 3.

make materia come in only base stats. there is no reason to have 20 different pieces of Strength IV with different stats that make up their own unique stack. have all materia come with only base stats for each tier of materia. the attaching process would be turned into a synth and not the rehash of the original repair system we have now. the quality would be based exactly like the hq process is, but instead of +1 +2 it would be the different stats they have as a higher level hq. this would allow materia to be stacked and save a tremendous amount of space.

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addition 4.

change the process to dye gear. the way to dye clothes should have been put in place of the way materia is attached.
first, select the piece of gear you want.
second, the color you want to dye the item to.
third add whatever water or whatever they want to add to make it work like a catalyst and hit start.
fourth, the item comes out exactly like it is as far as stats and hq is concerned, but just with a new color.

there's no reason for you to lose your hq status of gear just because you put a color on it nor is there a reason for a horribly made piece of gear to become high quality because you put some paint on it. you should not forget how to put on a pair of gloves just because it went from undyed to red.

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addition 5.

go to around halfway in between the amount of materials you made previously to what they have been changed to. there's no reason materials such as yarn was reduced from 12 to 1. a reduction i can understand, but these just added to the grind people are complaining about. you now have to gather anywhere from 4 to 12 times the same amount of mats and make 20+ more synths just to get the same amount of materials. this is just extra time and effort put in with no sp rewards for your effort.

ok i know this is long and i will get alot of tl:dr, but this post was about giving ideas about how to make the system better and there are some. these don't touch the actual grind itself nor the mini game itself, but it would make the crafting seem more involved and less tedious in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by Secret_Reeve

erm while offline leveling is a valid idea,

why doesnt SE just add more leve's instead of 1, 10, 20, 40 wheres the 30 catagory? why'd it get left out and misex in with the 20's?

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Ehm, there is no level 10 category?
There is 1, 20 and 40
Level 10 crafting leves are in category 1 and level 30 in category 20

I would like something which includes bigger synths for EXPing crafter classes.
I'm a CRP35 (only god knows how I got there xD ) and I'm dieing with the Standard-Spamming EXPing.

SE already mentioned that they implement crafting boats with like more than 1 crafter. So you can work together to build that up. Why not just make "parts" of the boat on your own. Like log in, work on the "part" for about 15mins, get 25% EXP from your level and you'll have to wait 24hours to work on that boat part again.

Since crafting partly means a gil sink as well, you can make that "boat part" use like 3x99 Stacks of some Lumber to compensate the "easyness" of the craft.
There can still be the option to spam standard synth for exping incase the "DoH onry" people can do their thing.

In terms of "casual" play it's totally the opposite from what we have with leves. You can log in, do 4 leves, get exp and log off. Everything's done in 30mins-1hour.
If I'm logging in and want to XP my crafting class it's like... I'm doing 10 crafts got like 5% of my EXP Bar and log off. Inclusive some insanity granted in 30mins of spamming standard synthesis =D

The number are just guessed. Long story short, exping a craft is pure numbness :D and not fun! Of course there's people which find that fun, I'm not the one though.

(I tried my best to make it short, too bad I'm lazy :/ )
I honestly never really cared for "how I made the item when crafting", its just a mini game that takes up time, I would much rather just wait during that time and have the item randomly come together. I say this only because there is no real way to make a mini game that you have to do SO many times fun forever. Sooner or later you will hate it because it can't be changed or adapted as that would be to complicated of a system for crafting(grinding). What they are doing now by splitting it, sounds good. I liked the crafting game at first but after awhile (like I said before) it just sucks to do for grinding.

The reasons I enjoyed crafting (in FFXI) was for the ability to make things for myself/friends and sign my name, plus the fun of being your own business and trying to max out your profit. I don't know where people got the idea that crafting should be this active mini game in order to be fun. Its a good idea for HQ items to make it more skill(info they know)/gear, less luck, but again, not for the leveling part. I'm going to end myself here, I have a bad habit of going overboard with my post at first and shortening them after I realized I wrote a mid-sized essay.

Last little bit though (I can't help myself, plus I lied about the little part...), crafting can't be an "easy" thing to level, a time sink can't be the only factor people face as it can't be measured like money can, a normal person will most likely not level something if they are loosing something in return that is measurable, even if they will get more later, they just can't see past the loss of money unless they have a lot. If a craft is going to be used for money, there has to be a limit to the people willing to level it. The more people that are doing the same craft as you, the less valuable the job becomes.

Then again, who cares about money right now, its no where as hard to get as it was in FFXI and these are two different games, if they want it to be a normal thing for a player to do then that is fine is with me, I'll miss the "business" part of it but I guess its not really needed. There could be some worth somewhere for a crafter to profit well off of but its too soon to tell how easy HQing will be and if its worth a huge amount (cooking should be fine though, most hate the class and if food is ever more commonly used than there is sure to be a market for it). As far as making leveling fun or less-grind filled, that is going to be close to impossible, the way DoW and DoM get past it (kinda) is the introduction of a new element to the fight, or a new move that they can max out to get to most out of their job at that level. That is all action stuff though and changes per job, crafting is the same for all the crafts and there is no way to gauge your ability vs others. The best gear/skill does not equal a better experience (the feeling, not the number. Better gear/skill does mean you can grind harder synthesis) and a crafter can't show off. Put frankly there is no mental reward for being a good crafter while leveling other than the one where we are getting closer to the end a little faster, and that is really the only thing that will make crafting any better than it is now. The problem with that though is that its only from our prospective, the next group of new crafters will hate the new faster system just as much as we do this one, and we will laugh at them for hating it so and we will say how much better it was than now, but they will rage and say it still sucks to grind, and we will agree and continue playing. I can't think of anything that isn't crazy that will take someones mind off the fact they are grinding a craft.

I like the craft system as it is now. No, I'm not a masochist. I just value reward for hard work and effort. I know you can bot to 50 which makes it no work and no effort, but I don't play that way. I will be happy with whatever system they implement because I have faith that it will be good based on their adjustments so far. I haven't been 100% happy with everything but I'm having tons of fun.

I been crafting since beta. My first 50 (I only have 2 right now) is ALC. It took me forever to achieve this, one year really. Now that I've gotten there crafting more levels in other classes is much easier.

If you're having trouble crafting try getting alc abilities Preserve, L10 and Hand of the Gods L36

Getting max craft should take time if they make it faster even i would craft, cause i hate crafting and its not even the grind that gets me its that white orb i hate looking @ it lol. Honestly iy just seems like to me people want to get craft to 50 easy as possible so they can make easy gil.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

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addition 1.

this i like. there was also an idea that the starting quality of the synth should not change due to hq materials being used. here's a basic example.

now:
hq materials used = @160 durability and 300quality.

changed:
hq materials used = @200 durbaility and 0 quality.

these would require you to actually play the game and use the abilities to get an item as a higher tier item. in other words, no more standard to completion then massive amounts of touch ups. they seem set on using a hq system that has a 100% hq rate so why not let the hq rate be entirely dependent on the quality of the synth.

now:
get 50 quality and touch up touch up and get a +2, but get 300 and after touch ups get nq.

after:
get less than 100 quality and get nq with a small chance at a +1, get to 100 quality and get a sure +1 with a shot at a +2, get to 150 and get a +2 with a shot at a +3, and get over 200 and get +3 gear.

this would actually require someone to make the gear using their abilities for a chance at the higher tier of hq items. this would work well in my eyes with the additional ideas you had for crafting chains and basing the sp off synths off the final quality. these should be level based, of course, and not a r49 weaver mass producing r1 yarn for 300 sp. they would have to be like battle as in within 10 ranks or the sp gained is 0.

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addition 2.

add a spot in the crafting guilds in which people that are looking for a certain item and cannot be found in the wards order it from the npc there. the crafters could come in and pick up orders placed by other players through the guild and create the item for the price the npc sells the item for. they could get guild marks, exp, and gil from supplying those requested items. it would be a nice way for crafters and other players to relay what is needed in the wards as well and keep the other classes from waiting weeks looking for that one piece of gear.

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addition 3.

make materia come in only base stats. there is no reason to have 20 different pieces of Strength IV with different stats that make up their own unique stack. have all materia come with only base stats for each tier of materia. the attaching process would be turned into a synth and not the rehash of the original repair system we have now. the quality would be based exactly like the hq process is, but instead of +1 +2 it would be the different stats they have as a higher level hq. this would allow materia to be stacked and save a tremendous amount of space.

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addition 4.

change the process to dye gear. the way to dye clothes should have been put in place of the way materia is attached.
first, select the piece of gear you want.
second, the color you want to dye the item to.
third add whatever water or whatever they want to add to make it work like a catalyst and hit start.
fourth, the item comes out exactly like it is as far as stats and hq is concerned, but just with a new color.

there's no reason for you to lose your hq status of gear just because you put a color on it nor is there a reason for a horribly made piece of gear to become high quality because you put some paint on it. you should not forget how to put on a pair of gloves just because it went from undyed to red.

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addition 5.

go to around halfway in between the amount of materials you made previously to what they have been changed to. there's no reason materials such as yarn was reduced from 12 to 1. a reduction i can understand, but these just added to the grind people are complaining about. you now have to gather anywhere from 4 to 12 times the same amount of mats and make 20+ more synths just to get the same amount of materials. this is just extra time and effort put in with no sp rewards for your effort.

ok i know this is long and i will get alot of tl:dr, but this post was about giving ideas about how to make the system better and there are some. these don't touch the actual grind itself nor the mini game itself, but it would make the crafting seem more involved and less tedious in the meantime.

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Some great ideas here.....id love to see these in game

The simplist fix is to:

-Raise XP gained per synth. ( I would suggest by double, but thats just me )

-Have earned crafting abilities effect the synth with a greater posotive reaction. (we earn thos abilities, and put them on are abilities bar so we can use them in the crafting process, now give then true usefullness and value)

-Raise the effect of various colors of stability. (giving the "wait" action more value, and alow certain earned abilities to sooth the reaction of the synth, thus givingus more control over reigning in instability,)

These few seimple chages would involve the player more per synth, and if they just give them a healthy XP boost so you can atually se your XP bar move after all that effort, you feel like your getting somewhere.

sorry, but the problem with ideas like this, is it is a way for people to level everything without even playing

we are not looking or botlike features or things that reward people for not actualy being there.


also, there is a difference between grind recipes and those which are used to make gear, the "best" grind recipes are those that dont require any real material sets(usualy taking 1-2 materials at most, easy to farm ones at that


if this is an isue of time sinks, well, games are time sinks in general so as always i find it a moot point

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Originally Posted by Firon

Getting max craft should take time if they make it faster even i would craft, cause i hate crafting and its not even the grind that gets me its that white orb i hate looking @ it lol. Honestly iy just seems like to me people want to get craft to 50 easy as possible so they can make easy gil.

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yes this. crafting is long and boring. but pays well. got to take the bad with the good

Whenever someone starts a thread with "listen to my ideas if you care about fixing such and such..." I'm always hooked! And to follow it up with constantly changing the font and font size for emphasis, and I'm totally on board! Way to go!

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Originally Posted by Firon

Getting max craft should take time if they make it faster even i would craft, cause i hate crafting and its not even the grind that gets me its that white orb i hate looking @ it lol. Honestly iy just seems like to me people want to get craft to 50 easy as possible so they can make easy gil.

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whats funny is you can make money faster, and easier, without crafting if youd just farm items on your combat jobs

BUT, people supposedely dont want to do that cuz it can get boring and repetetive
then they expect crafting to be a new and exciting change from that?


you make money either way, and when your not doing something uber challenging of course it wont have that exciting edge to it, wether its farming low level mobs for money items, or sitting and crafting to turn cheap materials into less cheap materials, thus making a profit in both instances

Just give everyone 50s in every craft.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

No. Doing this would turn crafters into a second tier class. They're a primary class, and should be treated accordingly. Make the crafting process more fun and the grind isn't a problem.

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Says you !

I don't think the idea of having crafters and gathers as main classes was a very good one, Yoshi-p probably feels the same way but is stuck between a rock and hard place through fear of alienating those players.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Says you !

I don't think the idea of having crafters and gathers as main classes was a very good one, Yoshi-p probably feels the same way but is stuck between a rock and hard place through fear of alienating those players.

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with yoshi saying he has plans for DoH/DoL having dungeon content. plus expanding on what they do with free company housing. and saying he has had thoughts on gardeners growing greens for chocobo. it sounds to me he has given some thought to crafting. not something you would do if you didn't like classes, you don't know what yoshi feels about crafters anymore than anyone else in here does

I wrote up an idea that includes allowing Moogle Companions to assist in crafting. Check it out.

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Originally Posted by grandm

with yoshi saying he has plans for DoH/DoL having dungeon content. plus expanding on what they do with free company housing. and saying he has had thoughts on gardeners growing greens for chocobo. it sounds to me he has given some thought to crafting. not something you would do if you didn't like classes, you don't know what yoshi feels about crafters anymore than anyone else in here does

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Oh boy, now we get to play The Sims in FF14.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

Oh boy, now we get to play The Sims in FF14.

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i didn't say it was a good thing. i am only pointing out that is wrong to assume yoshi dislikes crafting when he has plans for them in the future

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Originally Posted by grandm

i didn't say it was a good thing. i am only pointing out that is wrong to assume yoshi dislikes crafting when he has plans for them in the future

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Yeah, I know, i'm just expressing my dislike for the idea.

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Originally Posted by Vawn

Whenever someone starts a thread with "listen to my ideas if you care about fixing such and such..." I'm always hooked! And to follow it up with constantly changing the font and font size for emphasis, and I'm totally on board! Way to go!

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Thank you! I worked really hard to make it extremely engaging and I am glad it really had an effect on you!

<.<

...Anywho I am glad to see that people finally started discussing real changes to the system and I am sure the Devs are considering some of the ideas being thrown around here.

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Originally Posted by Kyra

Most stupid idea ive ever read on these forums, and thats saying something lol.

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Whats your idea then?

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

Some great ideas here.....id love to see these in game

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thank you. that's the type of changes i would like to see involving the actual synth, but there does need to be changing to the mini game itself also as it does not require you to actually pay attention to what is going in with the synth. this is what allows people to not pay attention and afk craft with turbo controllers.

the game itself is fine, but i believe it would be a more involved game if they made the orbs more involved in what you actually did. they should make the colors actually mean something. if they made the colors actually matter to what you do on the synth it would make creating a bot harder and stop the turbo crafts.

example now:

white = standard
pearl = standard
flashing = standard
yellow = standard
red = standard

no matter the color you go right through it because it only lowers the success rate by a few percentage points. for each color change drop the percentage by 10-15% and make people actually pay attention. this would make skills such as preserve and hands of the gods a major need to be used at the proper times and force the person to look at when they wish to use them.

the system is boring because it wasn't completely thought out, but it could be greatly improved by just fleshing out the great ideas the original staff had in place without completely gutting the crafting system in place now. as you can see i have most crafts ranked and do not mind the exp being raised on crafts, but would like to see a more involved system put in first because no matter how easy they make ranking the majority will still not craft. changes should be made to make people get reward boosts for effort put in and not reward people that just sat with a turbo controller or a bot and got max ranks.

to show the difference between the full time crafter, the person that hates crafting, and the bot i put out a question.... if you are using all hq mats what is your best set of skills for a max level crafter to use to try and hq an item? i bet not many will be able to give even a few ideas on the best set.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Another pointless post.... look, if crafting is super easy or fun, everyone would be doing it and thus there would be zero demand in market as everyone can made everything and gil would lose its value. .

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Most people are crafting, through botting. Don't act like thats not going on.

It's not like the current market is perfect.

A game should not strive to be "Boring".

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Originally Posted by Celtodeno

Most people are crafting, through botting. Don't act like thats not going on.

It's not like the current market is perfect.

A game should not strive to be "Boring".

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that goes on in every game. don't act like it's just in this one. people bot to get ahead and no matter the system in place it will continue to happen in a majority until se starts to actually ban the people doing so.

DoH are supposed to get re-balancing after DoM clasess which is next patch.

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Originally Posted by grandm

with yoshi saying he has plans for DoH/DoL having dungeon content. plus expanding on what they do with free company housing. and saying he has had thoughts on gardeners growing greens for chocobo. it sounds to me he has given some thought to crafting. not something you would do if you didn't like classes, you don't know what yoshi feels about crafters anymore than anyone else in here does

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I never said he didn't like crafting ... lol (saying probably is not the same as saying does)

If you look at his current plans to further simplify NQ crafting and have a seperate system for HQ items, it seems to me he wants to make one aspect of crafting at least a more casual experience.

There is no getting away from the monster that Tanaka created, gatherers and crafterers would be up in uhhh tools if he tried to change it significantly.

Where was it he said DoL/DoH were getting dungeons anyway ?

What a mistake it was to pretend crafting was going to be equally important as DoW DoM.

i think the mini game should be an option ( for people that like it , hq items etc ). If you were awarded exp after every succsessful motion of your tool , instead of after 5-15 that would also help alot ( as long as the overall exp was much higher than it is now ) im not sure about the whole offline deal, sounds abit too easy , but a change is needed IMO .

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I never said he didn't like crafting ... lol (saying probably is not the same as saying does)

If you look at his current plans to further simplify NQ crafting and have a seperate system for HQ items, it seems to me he wants to make one aspect of crafting at least a more casual experience.

There is no getting away from the monster that Tanaka created, gatherers and crafterers would be up in uhhh tools if he tried to change it significantly.

Where was it he said DoL/DoH were getting dungeons anyway ?

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in one of his many eu interviews he said something about having special places inside beastmen camps and such. where you need to use the facilities to craft gear than can only be made in these places (not dungeons sorry my mistake there) i'm not hunting through them all to find the link but it was something like that.

sypherblade i love your idea its alot like crafting in AoC hand in x amount of items trainer asks for get next crafting rank it makes more sens than the op or any of the flame replies ive seen i hope the devs take it seriously its far better than what we have now

dol/doh as main classes was a major mistake IMO craftin g should be upto the players to take up after starting thier main class IMO to those who think im wrong BITE ME