Report All the people Selling AND Buying houses in PF

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

House flippers aren't specifically targeting you, buying that plot to keep you out of it. They're buying it so that someone that pays an amount that they like can have it.

What about intentionally selling MB items below someone else's listed rate, to prevent them from selling their items, is that a disruption of someone else's gameplay?

Or "early pulling" a hunt while someone is still on their way, isn't that also a disruption of someone else's gameplay?

A few contradicting GM responses in game without full context doesn't prove either side, especially when there's been a thousand threads on the official forum and zero SE responses to any of them.

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The one thing I want to say is: They are buying the houses to sell them for a lot more than their worth. That is a fact. Not one of the flippers I have seen is selling for a reasonable price (like the 5m I saved up for a small house) (to be continued)

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Originally Posted by Avera

The one thing I want to say is: They are buying the houses to sell them for a lot more than their worth. That is a fact. Not one of the flippers I have seen is selling for a reasonable price (like the 5m I saved up for a small house) (to be continued)

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They are disrupting gameplay in the sense that they are locking us away from content by creating a monopoly and controlling who gets to experience housing and who does not. You can still sell on the MB and do hunts without a problem, but you cant buy a house when someone else owns it and wont sell it reasonably.

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Originally Posted by Avera

They are disrupting gameplay in the sense that they are locking us away from content

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Unless they buy every single house, they are not locking you away from content. If they give up the plot for gil, there are the same number of people experiencing housing that there otherwise would have been.

Who has the better argument:
#1 - I deserve a house because I've saved up tens of millions of gil and am willing to spend it
#2 - I deserve a house because I have 3M gil, was online at 4am on a Tuesday, and got lucky

Plot sellers shift the home owners from being 100% in #2 group to what, 95%? 90%? You really want to claim that that is the true problem with housing that needs immediate addressing?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Unless they buy every single house, they are not locking you away from content. If they give up the plot for gil, there are the same number of people experiencing housing that there otherwise would have been.

Who has the better argument:
#1 - I deserve a house because I've saved up tens of millions of gil and am willing to spend it
#2 - I deserve a house because I have 3M gil, was online at 4am on a Tuesday, and got lucky

Plot sellers shift the home owners from being 100% in #2 group to what, 95%? 90%? You really want to claim that that is the true problem with housing that needs immediate addressing?

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Its not about who deserves the house more, we all deserve to be able to get a house. and to answer you, there was someone in Gilgamesh selling 20 or so houses in one ward of the Lavender Beds :T

I really don't see ANY point in what you are saying Stouter, you're just trolling to me, if that is really so, gj.

Mmm on a side note i dun think anyone actually 'deserves' a house. You get it when you get it.
Its like saying the people who first bought a house 'deserves' a refund cause we payed 200m+ when it first came out xD

rather they should make any sort of 'reselling' way stricter.
(ex. reselling allowed only once per 6months or so by way of square account management system >> w/ no way to relinquish ingame)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

House flippers aren't specifically targeting you, buying that plot to keep you out of it. They're buying it so that someone that pays an amount that they like can have it.

What about intentionally selling MB items below someone else's listed rate, to prevent them from selling their items, is that a disruption of someone else's gameplay?

Or "early pulling" a hunt while someone is still on their way, isn't that also a disruption of someone else's gameplay?

A few contradicting GM responses in game without full context doesn't prove either side, especially when there's been a thousand threads on the official forum and zero SE responses to any of them.

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House flippers do lock people out of it and they are assholes for doing so. They lock out the people who saved up enough to afford to pay what SE told them they would have to pay for it if they wanted one. There is no other item sold in the game by the game itself which springs to mind that is both limited and with a maximum price dictated by SE. NPC stuff for example is unlimited so it is not against rules to buy from NPC and resell higher since anyone can buy the same thing from the NPC an infinite amount of times if they wanted at the original price, event items are limited but SE only set the minimum price or they make it market prohibited, 99% of the things in market board are unlimited and the 1% that is not SE only set the minimum price. Housing plots are limited and have a maximum price set by SE.

Other than event items where the event wont be repeated and maybe a few FC airship venture items (because it is tied to owning an FC house so is reliant on already existing FC home owners within the already limited housing stock)...everything else in the market board is unlimited in the sense of anyone can make or obtain them given time and effort. Plots however are extremely limited and only 1-3% of the subscribers in this game can own one at all. SE decides the maximum price of plots while on all other items sold to players from the game itself it is either potentially unlimited or SE only set the minimum price. People save up enough to pay what SE says is the maximum they should pay for plots...house flippers take advantage by buying the limited stock at that price then locking the people out of it who also saved up the same amount the flippers paid by reselling for often ten times or more the price SE told people it would cost at most.

On the topic of conflicting GM responses there was one posted recently which I have seen and said it is against the rules to buy and resell plots...I assume you have a screenshots of a GM response saying it is not against the rules which can link or show here since claimed there was conflicting responses? Or are you just making assumptions based on how few people have been punished? If that is your evidence then that is not conflicting GM responses but merely an assumption on your part. If you have a screenshot of GM's telling you it is not against the rules to buy and resell plots then please show it.

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

Mmm on a side note i dun think anyone actually 'deserves' a house. You get it when you get it.
Its like saying the people who first bought a house 'deserves' a refund cause we payed 200m+ when it first came out xD

rather they should make any sort of 'reselling' way stricter.
(ex. reselling allowed only once per 6months or so by way of square account management system >> w/ no way to relinquish ingame)

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What? xD Refund for what, most of them have been used gardening to get most of the money back!

Snugglebutt, the official stance is flipping is against ToS under disruptive behavior. There used to be conflicting information given out by GM's, but a GM supervisor clarified and made sure all GM's have the same stance now.

http://i.imgur.com/LNcXuRT.png

As for people defending house flipping, house flippers do nothing good, they just compound the issue of lack of housing. Not only is there lack of housing, now people have to pay more because some vegetables force themselves into the middle man position, and those with can't buy houses due to house flippers taking houses either get no house ever, have to farm significantly more gil to buy from house flippers, buy gil with money, or buy houses with money. No one benefits from house flippers except house flippers.

Yes, there should be more housing. No, that does not mean house flippers are fine, doo doo head.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

House flippers aren't specifically targeting you, buying that plot to keep you out of it. They're buying it so that someone that pays an amount that they like can have it.

What about intentionally selling MB items below someone else's listed rate, to prevent them from selling their items, is that a disruption of someone else's gameplay?

Or "early pulling" a hunt while someone is still on their way, isn't that also a disruption of someone else's gameplay?

A few contradicting GM responses in game without full context doesn't prove either side, especially when there's been a thousand threads on the official forum and zero SE responses to any of them.

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Disruptive behavior doesn't have to target a specific person.

You can't monopolize hunts or marekt board spots.
There are always hunts spawning, and if someone wants to do the hunt content they can.
There's not even any way to prevent someone from using the market board, as you can't keep people from hiring retainers.

Buying up housing, and holding it hostage until someone meets your demands locks off plenty of content that people have no other way to access.
Houses don't randomly appear available for people to buy, they have to be specifically added by SE.
They've even disabled the feature to kick people out of homes they aren't actually using. Though I can understand why... But there's some negatives as well, future precedent as well....

If SE wanted people selling plots of land to each other, they would have implemented a system to do so.

Why is this even an offense? And those rules make it extremely vague as to easily be able to make anything an offense when the butt hurt community wants to raise their pitchforks about something.

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Originally Posted by MetatronPrime

Why is this even an offense? And those rules make it extremely vague as to easily be able to make anything an offense when the butt hurt community wants to raise their pitchforks about something.

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Well you would be peeved if other players where deliberately preventing you from accessing content within the game we are all paying to play. I know I am.

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Originally Posted by Elodie-kitteh

Well you would be peeved if other players where deliberately preventing you from accessing content within the game we are all paying to play. I know I am.

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Lol...who wouldnt? I just want a house to make my own...and fill with many Moogly Moogles...-I like Moogles-

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

On the topic of conflicting GM responses there was one posted recently which I have seen and said it is against the rules to buy and resell plots...I assume you have a screenshots of a GM response saying it is not against the rules which can link or show here since claimed there was conflicting responses?

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There was one in this very thread:

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

http://i.imgur.com/RvTr8zv.png

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Originally Posted by MikeWW

As for people defending house flipping, house flippers do nothing good, they just compound the issue of lack of housing. Not only is there lack of housing, now people have to pay more because some vegetables force themselves into the middle man position, and those with can't buy houses due to house flippers taking houses either get no house ever

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And if there was no house flipping, 99+% of those people that didn't get the house they wanted still wouldn't have gotten a house. House flipping is a means for people to get a house that can't be online at 4am on a Tuesday and get lucky, so I would say that's something good.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

There was one in this very thread:



And if there was no house flipping, 99+% of those people that didn't get the house they wanted still wouldn't have gotten a house. House flipping is a means for people to get a house that can't be online at 4am on a Tuesday and get lucky, so I would say that's something good.

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=3= I have determined you are a troll...and one thing is: If house flippers didnt buy up all the housing, then the people who werent "lucky" have a better chance at getting a house than by being gouged a house for 6x its value if not more.

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Originally Posted by Avera

=3= I have determined you are a troll...and one thing is: If house flippers didnt buy up all the housing, then the people who werent "lucky" have a better chance at getting a house than by being gouged a house for 6x its value if not more.

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Ah the internet, where someone who disagrees with you and you can't convince otherwise is always a troll.

In the end, the house flippers have no effect on how many houses there are. Someone got one that otherwise wouldn't have, someone didn't get one that would have. It's pretty clear when someone is the former, but the latter is any one (and only one) of several thousand people. Everyone wants to believe they are that special one person that would have gotten that house.

If there weren't flippers to speciously blame for people not getting a house, they would blame the speed/warp hackers that beat them in the race to a house.

If there weren't flippers people wouldn't be quiet as sore as the blame would lay entirely with SE, however the fact other players are shifting fellow gamers because of sheer greed, that is where the partial blame lies. Both with SE and the unscrupulous players who are deliberately spoiling people's game.

And before you mention market boards and whatnot, if something gets undercut, you find something else to sell or lower it. You aren't stopping the person playing content within game.
There are alternatives to the problem, the housing issue however has very little alternative other than to pay the damn ransom for plots, though why should we have too when if someone is reselling a plot they never really intended to use in the ruddy first place!

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Warnings // Temp Ban has been given, nothing you can say to that. I guess there is no turn back to that, you can not avoid banning people for that once you started. You may have conflicts on the understanding of the user agreement, but this might be how it is.

Also, I think we all here agree that it might NOT be against the User Agreement, but buying house for the sole purpose of re-sell them at an higher price is wrong.
Those FCs who abused this system, creating lots characters just to buy houses in order to make a business out of it are as bad as Mafia is in RL, and they need to be punished in the harshest way.

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Only warning/bans I have seen is from people who are selling multiple plots. Even that link from GM conversation was about the guy making a joke saying he was selling 50 plots.

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Originally Posted by Elodie-kitteh

If there weren't flippers people wouldn't be quiet as sore as the blame would lay entirely with SE

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That's where the blame lies now. House flipping is not the problem, it's a symptom of the problem (not enough housing to meet demand).

If the real problem didn't exist, neither would the symptom.

Just because the system is a failure it doesn't mean that you have the right to exploit it.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Just because the system is a failure it doesn't mean that you have the right to exploit it.

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Exactly. It just worsens the situation, which is as bad as it could possibly be already.

I'd rather have no housing system than the housing system in place.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

That's where the blame lies now. House flipping is not the problem, it's a symptom of the problem (not enough housing to meet demand).

If the real problem didn't exist, neither would the symptom.

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House flippers are exploiting the situation and they are as much to blame, stopping people who would have used the plot rather than sell it on for ridiculous amounts of gil.

Yes if legit people brought the plots there would still be an issue, but like I said, you wouldn't have the damn resellers flaunting the fact they are just greedy sods.

This System needs to be changed. In the meanwhile they could simply avoid the House Flipping by placing a delay between the plot relinquish and the chance to buy the plot. For example there could be a day or 2 of delay with some kind of "House Finder" Feature to see which houses are gonna be avaiable and when. This way nobody would pay someone to sell a plot which they can't possibly get 100%.

However, House flipping isn't the only problem, there is high demand, and SE can't possibly provide further Wards to cover all the houses demands. Honestly I have absolutely no clue how these wards works, so I wouldn't be able to sort a good solution for this.

Oh and btw, this is an interesting video someone posted on facebook page, about the house crisis, this lucky guy was one of the first to log in and reporting what happened the first 15 minutes after server log in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2q7dlGBJPc

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

snip

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When your emotional argument meets common sense, you respond with name calling.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

This System needs to be changed. In the meanwhile they could simply avoid the House Flipping by placing a delay between the plot relinquish and the chance to buy the plot.

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That's what it comes down to. You can round up the villagers with their pitchforks and torches to go after the profiteers, but that won't solve the actual issue.

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Originally Posted by Elodie-kitteh

Yes if legit people brought the plots there would still be an issue, but like I said, you wouldn't have the damn resellers flaunting the fact they are just greedy sods.

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And this is what this whole thread comes down to; jealousy.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

And this is what this whole thread comes down to; jealousy.

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You call it jealousy, I call it people deliberately spoiling the game for others and preventing them from accessing content they are paying for.

You're just stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum since the first post. You didn't get your way, and you think that someone else being punished will make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Elodie-kitteh

You call it jealousy, I call it people deliberately spoiling the game for others and preventing them from accessing content they are paying for.

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They aren't flipping with the intention of spoiling the game for you or others. They're flipping with the intention of making gil. In the process, one person's experience is "spoiled" while another's is enhanced.

You see the same think irl every time a new game system or piece of iJunk is released. The item sells out, and someone that bought one makes money selling it online for a substantial profit. Those people aren't doing it to stick it to the people that want to enjoy the new gadget.

Personally, I love the limitation on housing and seeing the frantic Walmart stampede. If you were able to snatch up multiple houses like several friends and I were then you would know that you can easily purchase 2 to 3 houses before they are sold out. Just set up an alarm 30min b4 schedule server time and hangout in ts or mumble. What SE should do is create a legit house trading system. The reason why buyers spend so much is because resellers can only relinquish the plot unless it is an fc house. Also housing is not meant to be personal in the 1st place it was for guilds only. The player base got greedy and here we are

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You're just stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum since the first post. You didn't get your way, and you think that someone else being punished will make up for it.

They aren't flipping with the intention of spoiling the game for you or others. They're flipping with the intention of making gil. In the process, one person's experience is "spoiled" while another's is enhanced.

You see the same think irl every time a new game system or piece of iJunk is released. The item sells out, and someone that bought one makes money selling it online for a substantial profit. Those people aren't doing it to stick it to the people that want to enjoy the new gadget.

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You are just like an Ul'dahn Lalafell...always thinking of the profit.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You're just stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum since the first post. You didn't get your way, and you think that someone else being punished will make up for it.
They aren't flipping with the intention of spoiling the game for you or others.

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And you seem to like antagonizing in this thread. I didn't want a house. The FC I am in however did. The matter of the fact is, they are spoiling the game, intentional or not. The effect is the same.

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Originally Posted by Avera

You are just like an Ul'dahn Lalafell...always thinking of the profit.

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I said long ago that reverse auction prices should be starting at about 5-10x what they are now, while still dropping to the same minimum to eliminate flipping. That was the idea of the reverse auction, and it was a good one. With the stupid low prices and gil in circulation, they might as well have a fixed price.

What I'm doing is calling out the angry villagers with torches and pitchforks for being misguided in their anger. The roof has a hole in it, so they want to start with replacing the furniture that has water damage.

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Originally Posted by Elodie-kitteh

And you seem to like antagonizing in this thread. I didn't want a house. The FC I am in however did. The matter of the fact is, they are spoiling the game, intentional or not. The effect is the same.

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He's not antagonizing though. Not his fault that people are meeting his posts with emotional responses.

The system is broken. This is SE's fault. They have a means to fix it and they don't use it. Be mad at people reselling all you want, it's not going to fix the broken system.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I said long ago that reverse auction prices should be starting at about 5-10x what they are now, while still dropping to the same minimum to eliminate flipping...

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It is not set at the minimum price by SE, it is set by SE as the maximum price people should have to pay. SE offer relinquish where you get no refund and reclamation after 45 days where get 80% back when the feature is restarted, house flippers break the rules by buying at the maximum price SE set on a very limited supply then reselling for extortionately more than that maximum price by proxy screwing people over and locking out anyone who saved up enough to match what SE said they would have to pay.

All other item selling in this game does not fall into the same situation as plots. NPC item buying and reselling for higher is not against the rules because those items are infinite and anyone can just buy from the NPC instead at the original price, SE sets the minimum price for selling those only aka what an NPC would pay for it. All gathering/crafting and dropped loot is infinite also if willing to put in time and effort farming them so can be sold at whatever price you want and again SE set a minimum price which is again what an NPC would pay for it. Event items are limited but only if the event never comes around again and SE set a minimum price on them if not already market prohibited. Plots on the other hand are both limited and have a maximum price as opposed to a unlimited or with a minimum price set by SE.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

It is not set at the minimum price by SE, it is set by SE as the maximum price people should have to pay. SE offer relinquish where you get no refund and reclamation after 45 days where get 80% back, house flippers break the rules by buying at the maximum price SE set then reselling for extortionately more than that maximum price by proxy screwing people over and locking out anyone who saved up enough to match what SE said they would have to pay.

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Why should people be limited in how much they can pay for a house? if they want to spend 200 million gil on a house, SE should let them. That's more gil out of the system, which is a benefit to everyone.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Why should people be limited in how much they can pay for a house? if they want to spend 200 million gil on a house, SE should let them. That's more gil out of the system, which is a benefit to everyone.

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Find me one person who 'wants' to pay 200 million gil for a house when SE set the maximum price way below that. Only a complete idiot or a liar would admit wanting to do that. It is not that same as saying someone 'wants' to invest 200 million gil on housing items for that house. SE set the maximum price people are expected to pay for a plot, everything else they do not mind peoples selling for whatever they want SE set a minimum price for it. Stop trying to justify a morally bankrupt ripping off of other people which also goes against the intended purpose of the feature. SE gives you the official option of relinquish or reclamation, those are the intended ways to handle it of which they want you to lose your investment if chose to relinquish but will refund partially from reclamation which is the way they remove the gil from the system as you put it.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Find me one person who 'wants' to pay 200 million gil for a house when SE set the maximum price way below that. Only a complete idiot or a liar would admit wanting to do that. It is not that same as saying someone 'wants' to invest 200 million gil on housing items for that house. SE set the maximum price people are expected to pay for a plot, everything else they do not mind peoples selling for whatever they want SE set a minimum price for it.

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Show me where I said "when SE set the maximum price." I, and StouterTaru, are saying that the maximum price that SE has set is far too low. This is what needs to be changed to fix the problem.

When SE has changed the maximum price above 200 million, I will show you people who want to spend 200 million gil. They're all cluttered on Balmung and Gilgamesh, and they will gladly pay that price to beat the competition.

I haven't read this whole thread - but I have lately been reporting people who are selling the new houses on pf for extortionate prices. They keep popping up, so I don't think SE cares to be honest, least not on Cerberus.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Show me where I said "when SE set the maximum price." I, and StouterTaru, are saying that the maximum price that SE has set is far too low. This is what needs to be changed to fix the problem.

When SE has changed the maximum price above 200 million, I will show you people who want to spend 200 million gil. They're all cluttered on Balmung and Gilgamesh, and they will gladly pay that price to beat the competition.

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and not all of us are filthy rich, so we shouldn't be allowed to buy a house within something a little more reasonable of a price?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Show me where I said "when SE set the maximum price." I, and StouterTaru, are saying that the maximum price that SE has set is far too low. This is what needs to be changed to fix the problem.

When SE has changed the maximum price above 200 million, I will show you people who want to spend 200 million gil. They're all cluttered on Balmung and Gilgamesh, and they will pay that price to beat the competition.

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The maximum price is however not above 200 million so your response of 'why should SE stop people who want to pay 200 million for a plot' is still just as ridiculous in the context of what I said above. SE set the maximum price already and flippers are the ones who buy at that maximum price then screw over everyone else by raising the price by ten times or more the maximum set by SE...no one with an ounce of common sense wants to spend 200 million for it if they do not have to and SE says they should not have to by allocating a maximum price already on plots that is way below that.

Why are people annoyed at house flippers? Maybe because house flippers screw people over on a very limited supply feature which SE have already set a maximum price people are expected to pay for it...it is the house flippers who force anyone who wants a plot to pay such stupid amounts more than SE told people they would need to spend and anyone who not only supports that morally bankrupt action but also 'wants' that is either a house flipper themselves, an idiot or a jerk in my opinion. Let me make this clear for you, SE did not set a minimum price for plots...they set a 'maximum' and house flippers buy it at that maximum price SE said people have to pay then raise it far beyond that for personal greed.

People who flip houses by buying at SE's chosen maximum price which SE says people should have to pay then raising by extortionate amounts should have their houses taken from them, given no refund at all and then SE puts the plot back on the market at the original maximum price they set already. You mentioned desiring a bigger gil sink? Then support SE stripping flippers of their houses and giving no refunds to them. :)

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Originally Posted by Avera

and not all of us are filthy rich, so we shouldn't be allowed to buy a house within something a little more reasonable of a price?

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How many people do you think would be capable of spending so much on a house? It won't be too many. As those people get taken out of demand, the price will drop.