Can we have option to VK a player because they are below a reasonable skill level?

Some people are just bad and you have to grin and bare it.

Don't know how some of the people I've seen in duty finder are able to walk and breathe at the same time.

@Krenian
If you were on my server i would come and kiss you it is exactly it and unfortunately people kick others for no reasons other then *they can*

Quote:

---

Can we have option to VK a player because they are below a reasonable skill level?

---

Bad idea. Reeks too much of this. (Couldn't find a shorter version of this. Sorry.)

Not sure why people are still arguing, a GM response was posted in page 3 http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...28#post2358628 if someone is preventing the party to finish the duty by not fulfilling their role they can be voted to be dismissed, there's no "if i can enter the content i have the right to be there", it's a group content after all, not solo content, so OP, if this scenario ever appears, you're free to vote dismiss, just don't be too hasty and give them a few chances (like you did).

You may vote kick based on "difference in play style." Player skill is subjective, so this is the only acceptable answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

Not sure why people are still arguing, a GM response was posted in page 3 http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...28#post2358628

---

Ehh...i think it's great to have a good healthy discussion/debate over things like this with the game community....as long as some of us keep it civil and have our coffee and lunch before we post and stupidly personally attack anther person (sorry again ASHE! lol), it's nice to read people differing opinions and thoughts on the subject...it might even give more additional feedback to the Devs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

if someone is preventing the party to finish the duty by not fulfilling their role they can be voted to be dismissed

---

That's not what they said though:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function.

---

Refusing to play the role isn't the same as not being up to the standard you want/not being very good at it. All that Moderator confirmed was if the tank refuses to tank or if the healer refuses to heal or a DPS refuses to attack, then you can kick them. Nothing at all about kicking them because they don't play like you want them to.

That's like... on the level of why I can't get an invite for a Seph EX or a Thordan EX party - despite knowing the entire fights, no one will invite me because I've never pulled a clear.

Speed runs are one thing - if one person wants to blaze thru it and throw caution to the wind, you should find other people who are onboard with it. Otherwise, I am not onboard with being forced to go quick because someone wants to speed run something. I feel it creates a negative experience with other people in PUGs that are there and want to accomplish it at a normal pace.

I heal at a pretty good, quick pace. But when someone goes in half-cocked before a ready check or before everyone's in the room prior to pull, it stresses me out because I want to be sure mechanics are followed (not skipped because it doesn't always happen) and that I can heal everyone as quick as I am able to. When I get into a PUG Ravana EX and I am told we're skipping adds and the DPS doesn't check - it's a wipe. Who gets blamed? DPS? Healer? It's stressful! It's not what I signed up for.

Anyways, I'm ranting -_-;;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by worldofneil

That's not what they said though:



Refusing to play the role isn't the same as not being up to the standard you want/not being very good at it. All that Moderator confirmed was if the tank refuses to tank or if the healer refuses to heal or a DPS refuses to attack, then you can kick them. Nothing at all about kicking them because they don't play like you want them to.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkrateia

There is not much ambiguity to that sentence. If a person is intentionally acting in a manner that is detrimental to the completion of the duty, then the use of the vote dismiss feature is unlikely to be a violation. If the concern is that this will be used as an excuse to abuse the feature, if our investigation determines that they did perform their duties in an appropriate manner and were kicked due to unrealistic expectations, then it could be found to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature. A GM investigation will make the final determination about if the feature was used appropriately.

---

This part implies to me that it doesn't have to be intentional grief. Kicking someone because they won't speedrun? That's improper use of the votekick. Kicking someone because they cannot hold hate at all? You would probably be justified regardless of if they tried or not.

Sigh... i have seen a similiar scenario.

Everyone rushing the tank to do massive amounts of pulls when hes not comfortable with it.

I have seen this happen to tanks, and its considered a type of harassment... if what you want DOES happen, tanks like this will get kicked.

"Unrealistic expectations". So we can't assume everyone is going to Dow or mitigate numbers like the 1% of true endgame raiders, but it is not unrealistic to see some pull numbers that any 1-2-3 combo can do normally with no buffs.

It is very depressing when a person under performs or overheals or neglects CD usage in lieu of "that's just not my play style." In 4-man stuff, vote kick may be considered harassment. I mean 4-man dungeons are lol. But current content and you pull that...how can you not expect to get kicked?

There are certain differences in playstyle I'm willing to work with. A tank who wants to stay in tank stance full time, or a healer who wants to heal only. Stuff like that. I think most people feel the same way. We might think the person was mediocre at the end of the dungeon, but whatever. We cleared, got our tomes, and can go on with our day.

What most people are unwilling to deal with are the "I don't like Minuet/Gaus Barrell so I don't use it," or "I don't want to do my class quests and get new skills," "I forgot to repair my gear/upgrade my gear for the last 20 levels," "You don't mind if I spiritbind crafting accessories, right?" and let's not forget everyone's favorite, the ice mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venom

It is obvious the healer had just done fates and joined a dungeon they could not cope with.

---

What exactly was the healer doing to cause your group to wipe? Were they failing at mechanics? Spam healing but still not keeping up with damage? DPSing too much and not healing at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by worldofneil

That's not what they said though:



Refusing to play the role isn't the same as not being up to the standard you want/not being very good at it. All that Moderator confirmed was if the tank refuses to tank or if the healer refuses to heal or a DPS refuses to attack, then you can kick them. Nothing at all about kicking them because they don't play like you want them to.

---

Read the rest of his replies.

And there's nothing about playing the way I want them to, it's about preventing the group from fulfilling the duty, don't try to make this personal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

See, I would try to help people, but any time you tell someone "you're playing wrong" they tell you to piss off.

---

I was in a leveling dungeon on my Monk one day, and had someone in the party IM me to tell me how to use positioning to get my dps higher. He was polite about it though, rather than being all "git gud" or a jerk about it. And I politely explained back that I knew some of the skills did higher dps depending on your position to the mob, but that I just did not have the coordination and/or reflexes to keep moving from back to side to back etc. He understood and it was all cool. :) I think people tend to accept help better when it's said politely and not in a "I know better than you so my way is best" kind of tone.

Course I later found out I had been putting my points into DXT instead of STR. ^_^; Whoops!

Last Saturday was helping 2 people with Thordan EX it was late almost 2AM and with no luck in PF decided to DF and got grouped with another group of 4 that were premade and a SCH that queued solo, everyone knew the fight almost completely except the SCH who hadn't watch a video and was getting killed by everything tried explaining as much as possible to them but they just weren't going to get the fight. I offered to vote abandon which the other group declined and instead the other group vote kicked the SCH which is not allowed but in the end we cleared it the next run when they had another healer join.

A GM has already said in the past you are allowed to kick people for being bad, it's just called a "playstyle difference". If a person's "playstyle" is detrimental to your enjoyment of the game you're free to boot.


http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeColon

A GM has already said in the past you are allowed to kick people for being bad, it's just called a "playstyle difference". If a person's "playstyle" is detrimental to your enjoyment of the game you're free to boot.


http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

---

GMs have also said that they evaluate vote-kick abuse reports on a case by case basis per GM investigations. Your kick for "different playstyle" may be considered abuse per the investigation or it may not. So be prudent with your vote kicks and only do so when you are certain it is justified and won't lead to possible repercussions.

You do have an option to kick someone, it's called vote dismiss - reason - harassment, harassing me with your crappy performance.

This topic is so confusing. You can already kick people. Why did OP have to vote abandon?

Kick someone for fun also existed, i think some ppl need DF more and understand the reality. ^^;

As stated before, if the rest of the group is at a higher skill level and you're the oddman out, you can be rightfully kicked for not matching playtyles. It all comes down to play style differences. Same as for user agreements. Any agreements you make ingame are enforceable if both parties have committed.Players have a lot of agency in the game

You can be kicked for anything actually. If I don't like your glamour I can rightfully kick you. And there's literally nothing you can do about it. I don't think people realize this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambadelta

Though I would love this. I would say it is something that excludes people from doing content since what defines "reasonable skill level". People will use it to troll, and vote kick anyone they don't like since they are below their concept of reasonable skill.

I like it, but unfortunately can't see how it won't either make people bad, or end up abused.

---

People already kick for that reason, but they put some other reason (usually harassment) instead. I for example, had to kick a healer because he tried to heal Sohm Al, a HW dungeon, when he had never healed on a WHM before. We actually tried for a while with him and despite that, we made it to the last boss. Of course that guy died on every single wing phase. We replaced him after 3 or 4 wipes on that boss and cleared it easily with a new healer. We put "harassment" as the reason since it was the closest to "not skilled enough."

Going back several years, I remember a similar situation in a WoW raid group where a vital group member was struggling.
It didn't work out well, and the raid leader called it off - there was much muttering and unfortunately some poor comments regarding the individual.

The next thing I knew, my guild leader had invited the person to the guild, and as I was the relevant class leader for that person's role, he asked me to look after the new guy and teach him.
Fair to say I was not that impressed at the time.
Was slow going, but slowly things did get better. After time, mostly down to his perseverance, he grew in confidence and became a core member of the team.
It's not an easy route to take, to bring someone in and take time out to go over and over things, often resulting in less than better outcomes. But looking back it's something that I'm glad we did - even if it felt uncomfortable at the time.
He learnt quite a bit from many members of the guild, but I learnt more.

party finder is there for a reason use it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraluna

Going back several years, I remember a similar situation in a WoW raid group where a vital group member was struggling.
It didn't work out well, and the raid leader called it off - there was much muttering and unfortunately some poor comments regarding the individual.

The next thing I knew, my guild leader had invited the person to the guild, and as I was the relevant class leader for that person's role, he asked me to look after the new guy and teach him.

---

except you can't do that here in DF unless they happen to be in your server

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

See, I would try to help people, but any time you tell someone "you're playing wrong" they tell you to piss off.

---

Yea but it's how you say it. If you told me I was playing my job one I would tell u to get the F off and go suck my big toe lol. Telling someone ur playing you job wrong is wrost way to try and help someone. You really should rethink and pick words that would not offened someone.
Also you need to remember a lot these people are casual uses. They just want have fun playing the game they pay a monthly subcribtions for using there hard own cash and escape from what ever they to escape from in reality. The last thing they want to hear are ur playing the job wrong to them that can be harassment. It's all about what you say the words you use. To advice and help someone. Never complain when you get that kind of replay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blackcanary

They just want have fun playing the game they pay a monthly subcribtions for using there hard own cash and escape from what ever they to escape from in reality.

---

So do the other 3/7/23 people who have to suffer the guy who is playing his job wrong.

Sometimes people need to suck it up when it comes to the words "your doing it wrong".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambadelta

So do the other 3/7/23 people who have to suffer the guy who is playing his job wrong.

Sometimes people need to suck it up when it comes to the words "your doing it wrong".

---

Devil's advocate

But seriously, why should I take your words that I(supposition) play my work bad? afterall I dont know you, never seen you perform MY class, so why should your word matter ? Prove me you can play it better THEN I might listen to you

See my point ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

except you can't do that here in DF unless they happen to be in your server

---

Maybe the question is - how many people would want to?

From the comments here I would say the mmo environment has changed from those days in WoW. Harsher behaviour seen wrongly as being more hardcore maybe.
Raids in the past where equally, if not more, daunting than some of today's. Yet overall, seemed to be approached with a more social mindset.
You'd always get the occasional jerk, but these guys soon realized acting that way wouldn't get you invites to the guild raid no matter how good you where.
That's not to say there aren't great people around now, of course there are. But maybe a smaller ratio of the player base than from years back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

See my point ?

---

Same if you give it to them in a helpful tone without ever saying what they are doing is bad. People will get defensive if what they are doing is called into question, and that is the unfortunate issue with online games.

I myself generally just read reddit during a dungeon, and blanket out all the bad.

To add to the number of people who've already said this..."Play Style Differences". Vote Kick and carry on!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Devil's advocate

But seriously, why should I take your words that I(supposition) play my work bad? afterall I dont know you, never seen you perform MY class, so why should your word matter ? Prove me you can play it better THEN I might listen to you

See my point ?

---

I know this sounds harsh but many people who has a main job can't even play it properly and then I see someone who barely hit 60 do a better job. I'm all up for teaching people but those who refuse to? No thanks.I'm so tired of ''its my game, my sub, get a life, screw you'' Now few times people say no thanks but thanks for the offer, okay they replied atleast nice and I won't say anything to that person. Even if they were polite and nice to me about me trying to help them out I would still disagree with how they play, but they choose it and well, that's a choice.
A choice I don't agree with, but if that's their choice thats okay by me, they just can't expect people to tag them in battle content where they wont forfill their job. TBH, you don't really need to be maining or even playing a class very well to understand whats wrong or not. I'm not a super MNK for example but when mnks never put dots on or just ignore positionals etc, you know well that's wrong way to play the class. Just a silly example :p.

See maybe it's just me but I wanna make sure that the dungeon is cleared with out any issues. Now I've had in the past some people advice me on being a monk. But they was never rude to me and said bang out your playing ur job wrong. One guy who was a Tank who had his monk at level 60 just said to me "Fuki your dps is quite low would you like some advice to get it higher" now I'm a serious player I will take any advice I can get so I can do my job right and make my play style even better. Dude gave me so many pointers and also helped me out by sending me tell with his best dps rotations that he thought would make me even better also advice me on better gear. Now my monk is a fighting legend in my mind because of that amazing Tank who was really nice to me. That's how u give advice. Some people who have mentor are a joke they are terrible at giving advice. If your gonna help someone out cause u really want to make them better being patient and kind is the best way to do it.

In Bismarck Extreme a tank will unfortunately get kicked if they fail to do the Provoke switch more than a few times, and new tanks can take many times. It doesn't seem like there is anything stopping the OP from what they're asking for.

Does difference of play style really mean whether or not you've learned your job by the time you are 50+? I've always thought "play style" was more closer to things like RPing, gathering, crafting, or being hardcore raid focused.

It sounds like you should be hanging out in PF rather than DF if you can't handle that people aren't as skilled as you are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Devil's advocate

But seriously, why should I take your words that I(supposition) play my work bad? afterall I dont know you, never seen you perform MY class, so why should your word matter ? Prove me you can play it better THEN I might listen to you

See my point ?

---

I'm inclined to agree if it's minor things like a tank or healer not wanting to stance dance. Yes, it's more optimal, but whatever. We'll still get through the dungeon. We may not think they're the greatest at their job, but we lived and got our tomes.


However there is a point where it's blatant that someone is playing improperly.
1. Not using positionals.
2. Refusing to use certain abilities such as Wanderer's Minuet or Heavy Thrust.
3. Not having abilities level 50+ because the person doesn't want to take the time to do the quest. Yet they have time to do dungeons.
4. Spamming one ability (like Rage of Halone) repeatedly and not in a combo.

I know you disagree, but people need to be called out on this (politely). As someone who came from FFXI to FFXIV, there was a lot of stuff to get used to since the games are very different. I've had a lot of help along the way, a lot of nice people, and a lot of not so nice people. The thing we need to realize is we're all imperfect and have room for improvement. When I pick up a new class and someone gives me advice, I try it out. If it works great! A new tool for the kit. If not, then I dump it in the trash. What people need to realize is "let me help you" is not "you're a pile of crap."

I just need to say it in here. I have 2 FC members being IRL sisters being super ''casual'' in my fc, and they both come from my country, even if they can speak english it still would be fine. However, they are super ''casual'' and I was helping them with some pony farm run unsynced, now I know the dps doesn't matter much, overgear, lvl etc etc list goes on. I saw they did soo much weird stuf in there I wanted to ask them if they wanted to improve and they were all eager. I gave her dervy DRg rotation that I also use because he used to be in my static and FC and one of the coolest guys ever. Now, i gave her the rotation and she typed it down... 10 min later she tried and holy shit.. 90% nailed the opener, was after 10 min?! WTF??!?!!?!?!?!? Ok this person doesn't even do alex normal, they just sit around talk to people usually but this huge improvement in few min? Please, I just really gotta brag about that, players like that makes me enjoy the game more because it simply puts joy to other groups when they play well and not being ignorant and ignore they were bad in terms of rotation or how they play. Now all what matter is they do it in fights and so on, but improved that fast on a dummy? Hell yeah for that. Wish I met more people who was soooooooooooo positive to this and not only that, seing that they were freaking happy made me smil more. Thumb up for those players!!!

Things like this doesn't only bright my day but other players who are like me, love when people love to improve and get better! So if you are one of those players, thank you so much and we appreciate people who are willing to learn no matter how long it takes, because it different to person to person, so keep doing it and you will mostlikely meet people who enjoy being with you in party. Cheers.