No, it's not a gamebreaking mechanic. It's also not a requirement, simply hardcore players are fussy.Quote:
However this is a vastly game breaking mechanic when you're required to level up a class that you have no interest in.
This is no different than leveling up subjobs in FFXI. No one complained (too much) about that.
I should also remind you that when the level cap increases, 36 won't even be that far up.
1.2 Needs to fix Sentinel, Tanking, and XI Class-ism.
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10-25-2011, 01:10 PMAlhanelem
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10-25-2011, 01:41 PMMadruk
It's a multi-job system. If you want to limit yourself to one job that's your choice, but to make anything challenging they have to take into account all abilities you can acquire. Or do you want to go back to the solo mission extravaganza the original release had? That sure was fun...
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10-25-2011, 01:42 PMAndrien
there is nothing hardcore about it. if you want to survive damaging hits then level up to get sentinel. if no, then deal with clinging to dare life lol. its a fair compromise or else mages would be over powered
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10-25-2011, 02:09 PMKyrsIsleyAgreed, but the damage reduction is there, albeit mediocre as you stated, but if people are going to not use Sentinel, every little bit helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker
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10-25-2011, 02:24 PMGreyJorildyn
I don't get it. We have an open-ended class system and people don't want to advantage of it?
I get that there will be classes some don't want to play, but the game is designed with cross-classing in mind and that's how it's played. That can be fortunate or unfortunate, depending on your perspective, but either way, the game is still designed with all abilities in mind.
Your only choice is whether to adapt to the situation. It can be advantageous for you, or you can be a detriment to the whole party. It's either-or and can't be both. If that bugs you, then you are most definitely playing the wrong MMO. -
10-25-2011, 02:33 PMTibianTaking advantage of it isn't the same as requiring people to level up a completely unrelated class.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn
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10-25-2011, 02:43 PMRaijinactually, that is exactly what it means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibian
I did the fight and cleared the fight without sentinel, you dont need it to win. What sentinel does is give you more leeway in phase 3+. After a few kills i got sentinel, and you know why? because without it you preety much are required to have a perfect execution on the fight while with it, you get some room to breathe.
If you dont want to take advantage of that its our problem. Especially since you can go from 1 to 36 in a single day -
10-25-2011, 02:44 PMKyrsIsleybut it is NOT required, sure it makes the fight easier, but that doesn't make it "required". If you don't want to use Sentinel, that's fine, find people that are willing to accept your playstyle to play with. If you aren't willing to compromise for those who wants you to use Sentinel, what makes you feel like those people should compromise for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibian
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10-25-2011, 02:58 PMrzr22I'm sorry, I don't comprehend your argument. You like this system but you hate the inevitable flaw it has?Quote:
The armory system is one of XIV's best and most unique qualities. I means I can take the spells I enjoy the most from the classes that I want to play, and have a personalized character.
Don't get me wrong, I hate this system even more so than FFXI's, but I also realize that it's a flaw in the system. I hate open ended skill systems period. Why? I'll tell you why.
People praise open ended skill systems because "ohmegosh, it allows so much customization!" Bullcrap. People seem to have this delusion that open ended skill systems lead to diversity when in fact it's the opposite. It leads to more cookie cutter builds. Why take X when every class can have Y, which is ten times better? To balance all this is a nightmare. I can't even fathom why a developer would even want to do this.
In FFXI, it sorta worked because subjobs were capped. There was slight control on it. In this game, it's not. Even then, in FFXI, certain subjobs were simply better than others in a given situation. It's not elitism, it's simple common sense. Again, why take X when Y is better?
Back to the balancing nightmare. Here comes the issue. How do you balance PvE content when you have an open ended system? Champion's Online is a perfect example. Not many people played a dedicated healer in that game (at least at launch). In turn, PvE content was so easy that just about any build could complete the content. In other words, the content had to be easy because when you start expecting certain builds in people, the supposed "freedom" goes away.
On the flip side, if they decide to make PvE content challenging (which I hope we all agree on), a certain level of expectancy is made. So while you can run into battle using your stupid made up build, the boss fight in some dungeon is actually difficult and your stupid made up build is so bad that you can't actually complete the boss fight. In turn, you must readjust your skill choices so that you are actually able to complete the boss.
You can't have it both ways. Either the content is so easy that any skill combination can work or the content is challenging and requires a certain efficiency from your skill combination.
And this is exactly why I hate open ended skill systems. They either force the game to be too easy (and thus boring), or they aren't open ended at all and I would much prefer the typical MMO class system. -
10-25-2011, 03:11 PMakisatoi dont think job will work this way. how would you be a PLD if you cant use cure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
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10-25-2011, 03:12 PMMadruk
They're already balancing it around exclusive class only skills. It's not a true open ended system where you have a blank character and add whatever you want. The job system is going to further limit your options. They said they wanted the armory system geared more towards solo play and the job system for raid/groups.
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10-25-2011, 03:13 PMrzr22Maybe by making cure a Paladin skill as well? Hell, it's even like this in FFXI. You don't need WHM as a subjob to get cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by akisato
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10-25-2011, 03:15 PMPlatinumstorm
I think a problem potentially exists if there is a skill that is considered strong enough for a nonprimary role player that many shells are requiring that all the players they have take it. That does suggest a potential problem and it's something that might want to be looked into.
As the OP states, forcing people to go beyond how they want their character to grow and develop could lead to scaring off players. -
10-25-2011, 03:15 PMRaijinbut this is the thing, you are in NO WAY required to have the skill to win, it just makes the fight more difficultQuote:
Originally Posted by rzr22
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10-25-2011, 03:17 PMNeptune
Who said you need Sentinel? Without Sentinel you can still survive the attack, although you might need to recover afterwards with several Curaga 2's.
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10-25-2011, 03:22 PMIsaaru
lol @op for making a thread bc he doesn't want to waste his time lvling GLA so he wastes time making this thread.
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10-25-2011, 03:35 PMJynx
No matter the system there will always be a "Cookie cutter" way of doing things, it's your choice if you want to go against the grain or not.
I can't remember how often I was asked if I had /drk in XI in this situation I would laugh and promptly tell them that..no I did not. -
10-25-2011, 03:36 PMakisatoyea or why not just get it for CNJ. it is true you didn't need WHM to use cure as a PLD in ff11 but that was because PLD could ,like WHM and RDM, use white magic. so kinda the same thing PLD will be able to use conjury.Quote:
Originally Posted by rzr22
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10-25-2011, 03:37 PMrzr22But then where's the cut-off point? That's the issue your argument runs into.Quote:
That does suggest a potential problem and it's something that might want to be looked into.
Lets pretend Random Idiot has a completely off the wall build. He takes forever to kill things. He dies a lot, but eventually gets there. He now wants to join your group.
Do you say yes or no? No, right? Why? Because his build is bad. It's not efficient. It wastes your time.
At what point does SE say, "No, your build simply does not work." There has to be some point. If there is no cut-off point, then bosses will have to be so easy that Random Idiot can go kill a boss only using Aero 1 if he so desires. And who are you to tell them otherwise? The skill system is supposed to be free, right? But wait, you do care. Why? Because while Random Idiot is struggling with the fight because he's spamming Aero 1, you're sitting there bored to tears because it takes no effort for you, the min/maxer, to actually defeat the boss.
I will admit that I have no experience with this fight. So maybe you can fill me in.Quote:
but this is the thing, you are in NO WAY required to have the skill to win, it just makes the fight more difficult
There's a difference between "not required" and "not required, but it sure makes things a lot easier if you do." If your odds of completing some portion of content are increased significantly by using a certain skill, to the playerbase, this becomes required. In MMOs, time is king. Time trumps skill in a lot of cases. The best use of time often becomes the requirement or the expectancy.
Now, if your argument is that the fight without Sentinel is only marginally more difficult (or is a crutch for dumb players) and the playerbase is blowing things out of proportion, then you have a point. Regardless, I still think my point that open skill systems are a slippery slope remains, though perhaps not for this particular issue. -
10-25-2011, 03:42 PMSeirra_Lanzcei approve of this post!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
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10-25-2011, 03:46 PMRaijinthats what sentinel is, its a renewable get out of jail free card.Quote:
Originally Posted by rzr22
The dev team made sure that you can beat the fight with barly any invelovement of other classes.
i could probably heal it with CON skills, naked and using solely rampart 1 as a damage mitigator, but that means i have to play flawlessly, and why would i when i have so many options at my disposal? options that i took the time to level. -
10-25-2011, 03:46 PMKopuno
Don't patch Sentinel, patch the players SE, oh.. wait..
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10-25-2011, 04:10 PMGreyJorildyn
The open-ended system currently in place does not work, and we will likely continue to see restrictions added as time goes on and SE realizes this. However keep in mind that we're going to be seeing some potentially big overhauls to the entire system, including shifting around of skills and such.
Sentinel definitely is not required. When we're taking new members through the fight with our core group, the 7 of us have Sentinel and the 8th sometimes doesn't. Tonight that player did not and survived Hellfire all three fights. There are ways around it and the less resistant you provide to the fight the better. Top tier players will adapt and do what's best for everyone in the end. Do what you want to do, just don't complain about it because you've consciously chosen to take the path of greater resistance in the end. It's a video game ;p -
10-25-2011, 04:10 PMTiraelinaI don't think you understand the fact it has been getting designed around the use of addons like DBM for years now. Gearscore didn't give you any new information beyond what normal inspect does, that game also has hard gear checks. Stop trying to take cracks at things you know nothing about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
A class should not require 3-4 other classes to function. If it's going to stay this way then why was PL such a big issue? -
10-25-2011, 04:16 PMCichy
I think it's sad that the very limited endgame content is something that most people cant beat in first place.
I do get that we should have challenging fights, and challenging content. I was in a endgame ls in XI for 6 years.
However, making such high requirements is leaving bad taste for an average player. -
10-25-2011, 04:22 PMRaijinIfrit fight is very VERY simple mechanic wise. the only thing that makes it "hard" is the animation locks and server lagQuote:
Originally Posted by Cichy
its not a fight for the ultra elite, anyone with enough attempts should be able to kill him -
10-25-2011, 04:24 PMGreyJorildyn
Thing is, the requirement isn't the high. Getting a class to 36 is approximately half the total exp it takes to get it to 50 if the calculations from awhile back are still the same.
I've never once heard anyone complain that they had to level LNC to get Ferocity II, ARC for RS II, or MRD for Bloodbath II before. Seems like those things, since they help a lot, are "worth" putting the time in, but somehow Sentinel isn't? Maybe I just read these forums regularly enough (they turn brains to mush after a few pages...) but I have never heard complaints about that.
Sentinel is the best job ability in the game. Why wouldn't someone want to have it? Eventually it'll be nerfed but still be somewhat effective. Get it now while it's hot is what I say :p -
10-25-2011, 04:26 PMCichyYes, but it doesnt work like that. Currently groups with X setup are the ones going in and wining. A group of friends that has 3 glds, 2 conj, and some archers, unfortunately aren't going to be able to beat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
I'm not saying the fight is not fun or challenging or w/e. All I'm saying is bit too difficult for a game with virtually no endgame struggling for a subscriber base. -
10-25-2011, 04:30 PMRaijinQuote:
Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn
if sentinel gets touched, itll get the emulate treatment, from an extremely powerful skill to an action point waste of time.
hell, while were at it, lets nerf chainspell too since its a pretty damn good skill, blindside gives you guaranteed crit?, better slap a 10 minute timer on that. Hmm, better increase required tp to 1k for second wind 2 as well since its a preety strong heal too, hell give it a 5 min cooldown while were at it. Deflection akes mobs hit for 0? oh no it wont.
in the end, you get wattered down near ulessess abilities that are no longer fun to use. -
10-25-2011, 04:31 PMTibianI do like that you're taking the "unusual" role into play here. But I think at some point you really do need to be realistic and less hypothetical. My build is clearly a DPS Thm/Conj, both are 50. I have backup healing as needed, but my primary task is debuff/dots/damage and then to take out a nail. I can, and have survived the hellfire before with emulate/stoneskin/rampart. Furthermore I think I've survived it with just stoneskin/full HP as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by rzr22
Like I've said in previous posts, the armory system really does make it so you can play however you want. I think the cut off line needs to be examined to say "ok, so mages will generally level two thm/conj/arcanist(when it is out)," "dps will probably level Mrd/pug," archer could probably go in either of those builds, but it is kind of floating off on it's own right now and will have a companion with musketeer later.
It is practical to have thm and conj both leveled up if you're a mage. It is practical to have gld/mrd leveled as well. Currently tanking is the hardest hit situation in which you are truly required to level three classes to be functional at a minimum. This shouldn't be the case. A gladiator on its own should be able to tank rather effectively. Mages can get away with their class relatively OK as a single class, archer can do it ok as a single class, and probably most other DD's.
And I am right with you. This definitely crosses the line though when you literally have to level up an obligatory class that you have no desire to play, and has a completely unrelated play-style to say.. a mage, or even archer. This isn't just a skill that say... reduces damage by 5%. It is literally 50-60% making it required.Quote:
There's a difference between "not required" and "not required, but it sure makes things a lot easier if you do." If your odds of completing some portion of content are increased significantly by using a certain skill, to the playerbase, this becomes required.
To prove my point, shadowsear is THM only, ancient magic is Conj only. These are related classes and you can't use their skills? But a move that is so powerful that takes off 50-60% of the damage of hellfire isn't class restricted? If you don't call that OP, I'd hate to see what your definition of OP really is. If SE really wanted us to use sentinel as mages, they could have swapped it to a shield skill, which mages are encouraged to use and level up with.
This is where SE really hurts the most. Time consuming =/= difficult. Monotonous and repetitive time consuming grinds =/= engaging gameplay. Time and soul sucking requirements =/= accessible to new players.Quote:
Time trumps skill in a lot of cases.
That is what this really is about. SE needs to prevent such a massive barrier from being erected that ultimately drives people away from the game.
The line needs to be drawn before this gets completley out of control. Before you know it, linkshells will require applicants to level every single class to 50. Its outrageous, and as a community we need to step up to SE and say "no, you need to re-examine this skill/mechanic."
You can make engaging and challenging fights; but requiring to level up gladiator for the fight is not a good way to start.
You pretty much hit it on the head with that last statement.Quote:
Now, if your argument is that the fight without Sentinel is only marginally more difficult (or is a crutch for dumb players) and the playerbase is blowing things out of proportion, then you have a point.
So very true. This just makes my point of view even more valid that you said this. And what defines you as "ultra elite?" Spending countless hours performing horrible and monotonous grinds just to get that extra skill? No, it should be how you as a character play and perform based on the mechanics of the fight. Unfortunately, with animation lock and server issues, these interfere really with taking gameplay to the next level to elitism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
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10-25-2011, 04:33 PMRaijinthat setup is doable, albeit much harder (especially due to archer animation locks) than the typical lancer x5 tank con x2Quote:
Originally Posted by Cichy
A setup with different melee types is doable as well, but a little more taxing on the healers.
So are you really gonna blame the players for taking the path of least resistance? -
10-25-2011, 04:40 PMHikozaemon
Hopefully skills like Sentinel Rampart Cure3/Sac3 will be class specific only skills after next update as they are making more skills that way. Tank should'nt have to rely on rank48 DoM skills to keep hate and Other Classes shouldnt have to rely on High Rank Tank class skills to live in alot of situations wtf even have an armoury system then. Having access to tier 1/2 abilites on cross classes is ok but a lines gotta be drawn somewhere and jobs alone wont fix it.
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10-25-2011, 04:44 PMDavorok
Sentinel will be a Paladin only Ability after 1.21......problem solved............<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<speculation>>>>>>>>>>>.........
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10-25-2011, 04:45 PMRaijinsorry to burst the bubble, but thats exactly what the ifrit fight is. its not about what skills you got, its about how you move. You can literally do the fight with a single job leveled to 50 and the rest to 16-20 TOPS, even more, as a healer, you could theoretically do it naked without any issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibian
Sentinel is a very strong skill, but so is chainspell, so is ferocity 2, so is blindside 2, so is invigorate 2, so is second wind 2, so is bloodbath 2, cure 3 and sac 3 and the nerfed to hell emulate. they all have something in common, theyre all acquired in the 40s. hell with how strong sentinel is, it should be a rank 48 skill, be glad its not a rank 48 skill. -
10-25-2011, 04:52 PMShneibelI see you re a mage with sentinel on you signQuote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
now day, doesn't matter you re tank,DD or healer w/o sentinel = no pt for you, w/e argument wont give you a ifrit pt w/o sentinel -
10-25-2011, 04:58 PMRaijindid you read what i posted? i got sentinel AFTER i killed ifrit several times in order to make the fight easier for myself. it is in NO WAY required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneibel
what youre saying is the classic gearscore dilemma that WoW had. like gearscore, sentinel is a mechanism to select players. Like gearscore, you dont need Minimum gear X or ability Y con complete it. only to make things easier. So in PuGs, X amount of gearscore/ X ability, is "REQUIRED" to have which realistically speakin, is not the case. -
10-25-2011, 05:10 PMGreyJorildyn
Something we are overlooking is that, and correct me if I am wrong, yoshida doesn't want everyone to clear Ifrit right now. When the next big thing comes out, Ifrit will be nerfed so more can defeat it, and a new hardmode battle will be implemented for the elite players to tackle. Isn't that what he said somewhere?
In any case, the battle has (Hard) next to it for a reason. Sure it's not really "hard" but if it is for your PUG and you also don't desire to level other classes for great abilities that will lower the difficulty, then that's on you, not SE. -
10-25-2011, 05:14 PMShneibelguess I miss read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
And I dont think I was wrong when say that either, maybe you havent but I have: No sentinel = no ifrit . So I just ignore the ifrit until it got fix at the point there will be no : no sentinel = no ifrit -
10-25-2011, 05:16 PMRaijinthen get a different linkshell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneibel
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10-25-2011, 05:20 PMShneibelthat s random pt, not my shellQuote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
ninja edit: and I feel that reply begin to go far away from main topic. How I play is up to my decide