is WAR the best MT now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violette

Warrior though.

---

also a PLD an DRK

I think the issue here is of course is Warrior can do anything it wants and perform decently while PLD and DRK have to either fight for MT slot or have to provide a specific niche in a specific fight that only they excel at.

The way I see it you can always bring a WAR or even 2 but with a PLD or DRK you'll sometimes have to build a group around the type of Tank class you are using. Which may or may not be fine for some people.

PLD/DRK isn't much different from WAR/WAR in terms of efficiency lost these days. WAR takes a fairly severe hit in MT damage due to lost potency/crit/equilibrium & both PLD/DRK have had their DPS/TP boosted.

Lyth said it best. WAR is a great class but I can't say it's the best MT. You have to rely on healer and your self heals to top insane damage. They lack base mitigation aka grit ShO meaning their damage intake spikes. If you call that being a superior tank I'm not sure what to say. They require more work and focus of a fight to tank properly and even then they have to hope healer is backing them up. Right now best MT for trials type of fights goes to PLD, perfect mitigation and now more than enough damage to maintain great aggro without spamming 123 combos. Dungeons I have to give it to DRK no tank can AoE like them meaning dungeon clear times with them are normally faster when I use them. Don't get it wrong WAR is far from weak but they fall in between because self heals makes for solid mitigation and best damage out of the tanks and bring great utility. I think WAR are the best OT MT ummmmm no but still solid as a MT.

WAR MT + PLD OT offers some neat synegry atleast on Midas normal, due huge amount of vul's and resistance downs OT PLD can soak pretty much all of them with Cover. Tho im not sure if this works on Savage but if it does that might open new strats for some encounters, also Clemency has alot more use now and it feels good when you see big fat 10k+ cleme crit on your WAR MT after TB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

also a PLD an DRK

---

M8 you got to understand. When damage is based primarily around tank busters and short damage phases, warrior will always be king in this game.
You just can't get around it's DPS combo being massive enmity, the power of unchained+berserk, the flexibility of IB/IB>INF>IB, storm's dual utilities, the ability to smoothly stance dance, etc.

It's just the gap between WAR mt and PLD/DRK OT is much smaller than the War OT to PLD OT gap (then to DRK OT). I love my drk as much as Syzy loves his, but even I have to admit at this point war is the better mt with how raids are designed. If we were back in T1-5, it'd be different. PLD and DRK's better constant mitigation sources would bridge the gap.

I do have to say that SE has a lot of nerve leaving PLD/DRK stances on the GCD with all of these tank swaps. They're straight up harder to do and time precisely and happen too frequently for you to significantly make up for the loss of turning the damn things on/off in the first place.

Making them not interrupt combos is nice but in practice it sets up and encourages techniques that detract from success. You have to activate Grit in advance of your combo, not during, if you want the combo to actually get hate for you after you voke. So you not only take the DPS loss from the GCD but the loss of having to activate it in advance if your timing isn't extremely precise.

Afterwards, I go into the same fight on my WAR and its just such fucking easymode, hitting sunder and then double-weaving your stance and voke in the same GCD leading into BB... like... seriously? Its a joke.

Its not even that WAR is OP at this point, its that SE straight up is making PLD and DRK harder to effectively and efficiently play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

You have to activate Grit in advance of your combo, not during, if you want the combo to actually get hate for you after you voke. So you not only take the DPS loss from the GCD but the loss of having to activate it in advance if your timing isn't extremely precise.

---

I didn't find it that difficult, playing DRK and PLD. You just do the first two steps of your enmity combo, change stance, provoke, and do the third step. We also benefit right away from out tank stance if the swap is just before a big hit, and we can also pop any mitigation skill without spending a GCD and while not having our tank stance.
I think it's a fair trade-off now.

And, are we still poiting fingers for DPS loss off ONE GCD ? Again ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

snip

---

Its not that it is inherently hard, its just so much more laughably easy on WAR. I don't see how that's even up for discussion.

And its not just one GCD. Its one for every tank swap, and there are many in savage atm. And they feel clunky as well with on-GCD stances.

Double-weaving your stance with voke? I'm sorry, but I'll take that any day of the week over instant mitigation, that's what CDs are for. And yes IB is on the GCD but guess what isn't? Every other CD the job has. Oh and SW and EQ are oGCD as well. EZPZ. I can't count the amount of times I've eaten a TB, NAKED, as a WAR, and just yolo-healed back up with SW+EQ.

No other job's stances or passive buffs need a GCD to activate. NIN poisons, MNK fists, cleric stance, none of them. Cleric stance is insanely powerful for being oGCD. Swaps INT/MND and then buffs damage dealt on top of that. I'd happily keep the MP costs of the Oaths/Grit, and even have a longer recast time so we must remain committed to the stance for longer and not leap in and out every 10 SECONDS like WARs can, if they were simply oGCD.

Some WAR mains really perplex me. They'll go on and on about how good their job is, the best in the game, and it shouldn't be nerfed, the others should be buffed, but then the nanosecond a PLD or DRK starts to talk about any of these hypothetical buffs, or think they're entitled to any of the things that make WAR so good, it suddenly becomes too much for people to handle, and all they can do is trump up perceived on-paper disadvantages that WAR supposedly has that do very little to actually gimp the job in practice.

tl;dr "no nerfs pls buff other tanks, w8 no, don't buff the other tanks, then they might actually be well designed like us, can't have that no sir" - this is what I feel like i'm reading sometimes. Feel free to disagree.

I still find it funny that when I run VA and any trials SINCE 3.01 I don't see any WARs stepping up to MT any bosses. I haven't run into any "WAR MT ONRY" players since Alex Normal came out(pre-Alex Normal it was only Trials and 2.x content, but even the 2.x content they've backed out of doing anything but DPS...), and I've only seen one WAR willing to MT(he's in my FC). I see threads like this, and I just shake my head that I don't ever see a WAR stepping up(or demanding to) MT since then. Aside from my FC WAR I've talked to ONE person in a dual-/multi-tank area that said they MT on their WAR, but they were on a DPS at the time, so they didn't MT that round.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

tl;dr "no nerfs pls buff other tanks, w8 no, don't buff the other tanks, then they might actually be well designed like us, can't have that no sir" - this is what I feel like i'm reading sometimes. Feel free to disagree.

---

Oh, I surely won't disagree on that.
Last night, one of my friend said the same about the recent MCH buffs : "MCH got something and BRD didn't have the same"..."Well, duh, it's because they deemed MCH a little weaker than BRD...if you buff BRD on top of that, then MCH will still be deemed weaker"

That's why, whenever someone rejects a PLD (or DRK) buff by screaming "OoooPppp !", I usually ask them "Will it make you chose that tank over a WAR ?" and, 9 out of 10, the answer is "Hmmm...no" :p

Oh, and don't judge by my profile, I'm not a MRD main...I still don't understand why the forum keep saying it :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

tl;dr "no nerfs pls buff other tanks, w8 no, don't buff the other tanks, then they might actually be well designed like us, can't have that no sir" - this is what I feel like i'm reading sometimes.

---

You're right that tank swapping as a WAR is definitely more fluid, however much like a WAR still needs to anticipate when the tank swap is happening, so does a DRK/PLD. So, knowing this, you just go "ok, turn on tank stance here, Provoke, enmity combo". It's definitely clunky if you're just going into a fight completely blind, but it's not exactly a big deal when you know when the tank swap is coming. A5S, for example (if you're not pulling) - figure out how many combos until Concussion, change stances during that combo, Provoke, and you're done. Same deal with WAR, we just... can do it oGCD. I dunno, I agree that it's definitely more fluid on WAR but it's about the same ease of use. I guess WAR's is faster but like... does that really matter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RecklessLion

snip

---

What? All tank stances give the same eHP. This means defiance is just like ShO/grit. Defiance also buffs heals recieved to balance things out. This means it's not harder to heal a WAR than DRK, nor squishier. In reality, the fact that their HP yoyos harder is meaningless. If anything, WAR has IB for an extra 20% mitigation with whatever cooldown they want to survive anything. I don't know how you can say they rely on a healer more when they're mathematically just as tanky. They also have amazing AoE thanks to maim, berserk, IR, double decimate and overpower spam (vengeance too?). The best AoE DRK has is abysmal drain with SaE topped with a DA DP before blood price runs out, which is real good, but even that can't compare with a fully decked out AoE WAR rotation.

I'm genuinely curious, how do you NOT see WAR as what many call a superior tank or best MT?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

snip

---

I dunno, I think some of these idiots like to think their job can do or offer something that WAR can't, or that maybe their skill as a player can see them through content regardless of job or role. Morons, amirite?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

I'm genuinely curious, how do you NOT see WAR as what many call a superior tank or best MT?

---

Simple...

• Stacking is bad
• WAR is the best OT by a greater margin

So, by default, it's often better to take another tank as MT :p

Honestly, taking Grit/ShO off the gcd would not be balanced move, considering that while war enjoys stance dancing, going into defiance does not make it any tankier until they're healed.

Reducing Grit/ShO to 1s cast time with a 10s recast spell (like Emp Arrow kinda), would be the way to go imo. Best of both words, though grit needs a mp cost reduction or something cause swapping grit on/off is murder. Or an GCD ability with 1s cooldown and a 10s recast. Just because it has a cast time doesn't mean it has to take 10 years.

This has slowly becoming my class is the best thread.

It could be lack of sleep, but i'm genuinely confused by the concept of something being on the gcd but with a recast time different from the gcd. Also how would giving it a cast time be anything but a hinderance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Is it so wrong to want to go that extra mile? Is it so wrong to enjoy pushing out meaningful damage while still holding true and fulfilling your primary duties as tank? What you're basically saying is that every tank should be happy being in tank stance 24/7 while spamming only their aggro combo, because hey, "DATS YER JERB!" Just because you're complacent with never leaving the comfort of tank stance means everyone else should too.
.

---

Is it so wrong to want to go the extra mile? Is it so wrong to enjoy tanking and reducing damage as a DPS tank on Dragoon while still holding true and fulfilling your primary duties as a DPs? What you're basically saying is that every DPS should be happy spamming their Damage combos and keeping their oGCD's on cool down, because hey "DATS YER JERB!" Just because you're complacent with never leaving the comfort of not taking tank busters as a dps doesn't mean everyone else should to.

That's how you sound like. Just a fyi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaethusXion

I still find it funny that when I run VA and any trials SINCE 3.01 I don't see any WARs stepping up to MT any bosses.

---

It's because they won't let me. I've tried to be an MT in many VA runs as a warrior, but DRK or PLD won't let me. They tried so hard to rip off the boss' agro from me and well... I let them. PLD and DRK have the exclusive MT spot in VA or other trials from what I see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violette

Stuff about Defiance

---

Or they could just go ahead and allow for the HP to recover when WAR's enter into defiance and the just take grit and ShO off GCD. Sounds like a easier fix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriaEnia

It's because they won't let me. I've tried to be an MT in many VA runs as a warrior, but DRK or PLD won't let me. They tried so hard to rip off the boss' agro from me and well... I let them. PLD and DRK have the exclusive MT spot in VA or other trials from what I see.

---

It's probably because they're better at MT...
Not better than WAR...but better than OT, and that's an already known issue. PLD and DRK both lose important things by being Off-tank.

Were they also designed with an OT perspective, it would also make PLD/DRK and DRK/PLD a more interesting setup than it is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Let's not act like nothing's changed. Let's not act uppity and act like this feeling of a nerf is exclusive to lesser players. Just because enmity generation in tank stance has changed to compensate for our 20% damage nerf does not mean enmity generation out of stance has.

---

This. If people don't want to get out of tank stance, then good for them, the rest of us want to actually play around and optimize our performance, and that has taken a huge hit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

This. If people don't want to get out of tank stance, then good for them, the rest of us want to actually play around and optimize our performance, and that has taken a huge hit.

---

Then get out of tank stance and optimize your performance. Nothing is stopping you from doing this other than taking a 25k tank buster to the face, which is probably possible in the current fight. But really if you're so invested in maxing out damage that it pains you to first optimize holding hate and taking less damage first, maybe you should...

A. visit the hall of novice where they teach you the basic of tanking.
B. Consider playing a DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seku

That's how you sound like. Just a fyi.

---

Ah gee, does a DPS still fulfill their job if they're dead? Think up a better argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Ah gee, does a DPS still fulfill their job if they're dead? Think up a better argument.

---

No, but they don't whine about how they NEED more mitigation or they'll just stop playing...
While tanks go on and on about how they can't tank out of tank stance, so they NEED more enmity or more damage...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, but they don't whine about how they NEED more mitigation or they'll just stop playing...

---

Wasn't there a thread in the dps forums a while back about how someone hated mch and was going to stop playing it because they had little to no self heals and mitigation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seku

Then get out of tank stance and optimize your performance. Nothing is stopping you from doing this other than taking a 25k tank buster to the face, which is probably possible in the current fight. But really if you're so invested in maxing out damage that it pains you to first optimize holding hate and taking less damage first, maybe you should...

A. visit the hall of novice where they teach you the basic of tanking.
B. Consider playing a DPS.

---

Maybe you're the bad tank here, and your friends never told you. If you don't know how to stance dance, don't blame me.

Edit: Just for the record, I never said I had any problems, I just adapted to how things are, but like someone said, and I quoted, let's not pretend that hasn't changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Maybe you're the bad tank here, and your friends never told you. If you don't know how to stance dance, don't blame me.

---

I'm a firm believer that deliverance is reserved for when i'm off tanking and defiance for MT and I've never had an issue with any content thus far have yet to run midas but ran savage, my DPS in defiance isn't anything to laugh at. I've seen multiple of you "stance dance masters" eat a crit to the face while you're in deliverance and hit the floor, then bitch at the healer for not keeping you up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoodRat

Wasn't there a thread in the dps forums a while back about how someone hated mch and was going to stop playing it because they had little to no self heals and mitigation?

---

Maybe there was, but for one dumb thread like that, you have dozens of thread about "RIP 3.2 tanks"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seku

Or they could just go ahead and allow for the HP to recover when WAR's enter into defiance and the just take grit and ShO off GCD. Sounds like a easier fix.

---

^ this would put WAR leagues ahead of DRK and PLD.

status off defiance, then activate defiance.
Heal 25% HP every 10 seconds.

You also need to remove HP on exit, which would make for some weird mechanics like heals being more effective if followed by a stance change.

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The action of switching to defiance does not impact your survivability on activation, it requires a follow-up action, such as IB, which is on gcd.

What is the end goal of wanting the stance off gcd?
Shield Oath + Grit are already offer superior survivability at activation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

snip

---

They already technically can lose 25% HP when they drop Defiance, if they're topped.

Getting 25% of their max HP back would just make it like Thrill, which doesn't necessarily top them off. Its the same kind of instant effective mitigation that ShO/Grit would get if they where off GCD, so it wouldn't actually make anything OP at all when you consider that then PLD and DRK would have oGCD Inner Beasts that they can take up and down whenever they want. I'd be totally cool with having Defiance heal WARs if that's the tradeoff they'd demand for us to finally get rid of the only two perma-buffs in the game right now that are on the goddamn GCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

snip

---

Not quite....
For easy numbers, let's say I have 16k HP
Activating defiance puts me at 20k HP
If I status off defiance at 16k, I'll be at full HP.
Then I instantly reactivate and would be at 20k again.
In this scenario, it's up to a 4k heal every 10 sec.

Shield oath/grit is different in that when you turn it off or on, the indirect effect to ehp is based on current, not max hp

Out of curiosity why do ppl want them off gcd so bad? QoL?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

Also how would giving it a cast time be anything but a hinderance?

---

It's simple.

I turn on ShO/Grit, I immediately have an extra 20% eHP.

I turn on Defiance, I have to wait to be healed, meaning there is a gap in tankiness that an Equilibrium heal can no longer fill.

As such, we can all agree that ShO/Grit are better "cooldowns" per say, as they activate immediately.

Having them still have a cast time is simply to balance out the game play of ShO/Grit vs Def.
I turn on Def and the healer doesn't top me up, I'm still just as tanky as I was before (give take 0-10% parry).

It's clunky, but for the power it gives it should have some drawback. Reducing the gcd recast timer (emp arrow, meditate), is something SE has doneand could be applied here to take out some of the clunk while respecting the power of the stances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

Not quite....
For easy numbers, let's say I have 16k HP
Activating defiance puts me at 20k HP
If I status off defiance at 16k, I'll be at full HP.
Then I instantly reactivate and would be at 20k again.
In this scenario, it's up to a 4k heal every 10 sec.

Shield oath/grit is different in that when you turn it off or on, the indirect effect to ehp is based on current, not max hp

Out of curiosity why do ppl want them off gcd so bad? QoL?

---

People don't appreciate that ShO/Grit is a superior stance upon entry.
QoL would be reducing cast time.
Silly would be taking it off the GCD.

Want a quality of life fix? Learn the fights and turn the tanking stances on/off when needed. My only issue with stance dancing is with Grit's stupidly high mana cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violette

snip

---

Yes most of us know Grit/ShO have the advantage of being "instant" mitigation and Defiance has the advantage of being oGCD, which is why I said in reply to Winsock that if Grit/ShO did go off the GCD it would only be fair to have Defiance heal the HP towards the +25% max in much the same way ToB does. That way they are all oGCD, they all provide instant mitigation in eHP terms, and none of them are clunky for no justifiable reason or a pain in the ass to use.

Yes, as you become familiar with fights you plot out your GCDs for swaps and such when on PLD/DRK. But on WAR, you can yolo it. Sometimes it pays to be able to yolo it. Like when your MT dies (or OT, if you've swapped). The lack of Defiance's instant mitigation is much easier to work around and more forgiving during progression because its oGCD. So many comments I see don't take progression into account, its like everyone lives in a perpetual farm party. In progression when shit is hitting the fan having abilities that aren't clunky like this can make the difference between a wipe and a clear, and more commonly, the difference between a premature wipe and progression to a new phase or set of mechanics to practice.

So yeah, Oaths/Grit should be oGCD, and Defiance should heal for an amount equal to the max HP increase. Then you have no weak links in these abilities other than "QQ I'm not dealing as much DPS" and they can work as intended, as Yoshi loves to say.

Also no MP cost of a DRK ability is "stupidly high"; its all easily manageable. Grit's MP cost is the least of its problems and probably the easiest to work around. Although if I were to agree with you on that, I'd say the MP costs of the Oaths/Grit would be their "drawback", and that having them on the GCD is just a kick in the face.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bjorn_Ironside

I've seen multiple of you "stance dance masters" eat a crit to the face while you're in deliverance and hit the floor, then bitch at the healer for not keeping you up.

---

Heh, that's pretty funny.

What? It was funny!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

snip

---

Im really trying to understand where you're coming from, but defensively Grit and Shield Oath are superior in every way compared to defiance. Defiance being off GCD does not offer a defensive advantage over Grit / Shield Oath:

* Defiance must be activated before Shield Oath / Grit, so that IB lines up with Shield Oath / Grit
* Defiance is weaker than Shield Oath / Grit both at activation and while active.
* Poor stack management has higher defensive penalties than poor MP manage.

If you cannot 'yolo' it on PLD because Shield Oath is on GCD, a WAR's defiance certainly isnt going to save you. It must be activated earlier than shield oath and you must ensure you have the stacks to IB.

The suggestion of defiance healing like ToB would be OP. Imagine how defensive WAR could be if equilibrium had a 10 sec cooldown. Defiance working like ToB would be better than that. (Before considering stacks)

You're missing one thing about Defiance, the healing boost.

Suppose you're in Deliverance, but under 80% on you max HP. Taking a hit after that, wether you stay in Deliverance of switch to Defiance, is the same.
After the hit, you switch to Defiance and the healing boost will help you compensates for the hit you received previously.

On the other hand, if you take a hit out of your tank stance in PLD or DRK, you have no mean of mitigating its effect afterward.

So, in the end, ShO and Grit are only proactive mitigation, while Defiance is both proactive (with the HP boost), and reactive, hinting again that WAR is more "supposed" to switch stances (Which is pretty much confirmed by the wrath/abandon convertion)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're missing one thing about Defiance, the healing boost.

Suppose you're in Deliverance, but under 80% on you max HP. Taking a hit after that, wether you stay in Deliverance of switch to Defiance, is the same.
After the hit, you switch to Defiance and the healing boost will help you compensates for the hit you received previously.

On the other hand, if you take a hit out of your tank stance in PLD or DRK, you have no mean of mitigating its effect afterward.

So, in the end, ShO and Grit are only proactive mitigation, while Defiance is both proactive (with the HP boost), and reactive, hinting again that WAR is more "supposed" to switch stances (Which is pretty much confirmed by the wrath/abandon convertion)

---

Aren't Paladin's easier to heal though? by 4% or something if I remember correctly?

..

Okay I've found an old post from reddit and will bold the the relevant portion:

Shield Oath is a flat 20% damage reduction. Defiance is a flat 25% health increase, plus a 20% healing increase.
Assume a PLD and WAR have the exact same stats, and both have exactly 5000 hit points. If an attack with a raw damage (before mitigation) of 3000 damage hits the Paladin, it is reduced by 20% from shield oath, so the paladin only takes 2400 damage. The paladin is now at 2600 hp, 52% health. If that same attack were to hit a Warrior, it would do 3000 damage, but because the Warrior has defiance, he has 6250 health instead of 5000. After the attack the warrior has 3250 health, 52% health.
Notice that the health percentage for both tanks is exactly the same after the attack. If the same attack were to hit again, the Paladin would be down to 200 health, 4%, and the warrior would be down to 250 health, 4%.
In terms of ability to take damage, they're the same.
Let assume, after these two attacks, both tanks are healed by a divine seal + crit cure 2 for 4000 health. The paladin goes from 200 to 4200 health, and is now at 84% health. The warrior gets healed for 4000+20% for a total of 4800, bringing his total hp to 5050, 80.8% health. If another heal were cast for 800, the paladin would be at 5000 heath, 100%, and the warrior would be at 5050 + 800*1.2, 6010, 96.16%.
Conclusion
In terms of ability to take damage, Shield Oath and Defiance are exactly the same. In terms of recovering from that damage, Shield oath is slightly better, but only slightly. To say that Paladins are better because they have a 20% constant increase in damage mitigation is a fundamental misunderstanding of Defiance in light of the built in healing increase, which functions to make Defiance and Shield oath almost exactly identical in terms of effectiveness, with only a very slight advantage going to Paladins in terms of health recovery.
tl;dr - Shield Oath and Defiance are almost exactly identical in terms of effectiveness, with a (very) slight advantage going to Paladins in terms of health recovery.
permalink

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ragology

Aren't Paladin's easier to heal though? by 4% or something if I remember correctly?

---

Mathematically, yes.

But in the heat of the fight, those 4% are totally irrelevant considering WAR's additionnal toolkit when it comes to healing.
The other slightly more relevant gap is the fact that Defiance doesn't work with abilities...which is still weird, on top of totally arbitrary.