[3.0] Craftsmanship and Control bonus parameters will be added to Souls of the Crafte

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

A healthy economy is one where things become affordable, eventually. This won't happen with specialist crafts. People will buddy up and form crafting communities so they don't have to pay crafting fees, while the ones crafting for the marketboard will always keep the crafter's fee on the crafts.

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So you agree that the current economy is healthy then?

Because when everyone has something to sell, there isn't anything that is unaffordable. As I stated you can just sell your specialist recipes in order to afford the things you can't make.

Unless you don't craft at all, but being poor and not being able to afford much is kinda expected if you don't craft.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

So you agree that the current economy is healthy then?

Because when everyone has something to sell, there isn't anything that is unaffordable. As I stated you can just sell your specialist recipes in order to afford the things you can't make.

Unless you don't craft at all, but being poor and not being able to afford much is kinda expected if you don't craft.

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I agree that the current system is providing a short-sighted "fix" that will not pan out in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

I agree that the current system is providing a short-sighted "fix" that will not pan out in the long run.

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I don't see how, as it seems rather clear that they are doing their best to make every specialist useful.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I don't see how, as it seems rather clear that they are doing their best to make every specialist useful.

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People will buddy up and just never use the marketboard, instead colluding to keep their craft costs down while keeping their craft purchase prices high. Or the hardcore-est will just create alts. Then you're back to square one in regards to "true" omni-crafters, except now the barriers-to-entry are much higher, and "casual" specialists will never be able to compete with their prices.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

People will buddy up and just never use the marketboard, instead colluding to keep their craft costs down while keeping their craft purchase prices high. Or the hardcore-est will just create alts. Then you're back to square one in regards to "true" omni-crafters, except now the barriers-to-entry are much higher, and "casual" specialists will never be able to compete with their prices.

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Buddying up is a part of trade, and is part of a healthy economy. Before, there was no reason to do so. Now there is. This is an improvement.

Coming from other MMOs that didn't allow you more than one or two crafting classes on a character, I always liked how Final Fantasy was unique in allowing for the possibility of omnicrafters. One thing some of those other MMOs didn't do that FF does is have so much interdependence with basic materials. For those that did, I saw massive price-gouging especially if one class had more highly valued items than other classes. There was also competition for nodes in that game, so it made things even worse. I am sad to see the specialist system bring this sort of mentality to Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Buddying up is a part of trade, and is part of a healthy economy. Before, there was no reason to do so. Now there is. This is an improvement.

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Collusion usually doesn't lead to a healthy economy.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

Collusion usually doesn't lead to a healthy economy.

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It isn't collusion, it's trade. And if they're keeping their costs down, then prices are going to go down because things won't be selling, down to the point where they will sell. Which is... exactly what you said is a healthy economy?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Buddying up is a part of trade, and is part of a healthy economy. Before, there was no reason to do so. Now there is. This is an improvement.

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We call that cartels. Great for healthy economies.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It isn't collusion, it's trade. And if they're keeping their costs down, then prices are going to go down because things won't be selling, down to the point where they will sell. Which is... exactly what you said is a healthy economy?

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Well for one, it totally is collusion to buddy up to avoid competition. Second, prices will remain artificially inflated if there's no competition, due to collusion.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

Well for one, it totally is collusion to buddy up to avoid competition. Second, prices will remain artificially inflated if there's no competition, due to collusion.

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First of all, you can't buddy up to avoid competition when your competition is the entire world. This is not collusion, unless if you can get everyone to agree to join.

Prices will not remain inflated, because there will always be competition. If people are avoiding buying things from the market board, then those things will have to lower their price. If those prices are not low enough to compete with your so-called collusion, they won't sell. They won't sell until prices reach a competitive point.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

First of all, you can't buddy up to avoid competition when your competition is the entire world. This is not collusion, unless if you can get everyone to agree to join.

Prices will not remain inflated, because there will always be competition. If people are avoiding buying things from the market board, then those things will have to lower their price. If those prices are not low enough to compete with your so-called collusion, they won't sell. They won't sell until prices reach a competitive point.

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Your competition isn't the entire world though. People will just cease to trade outside their circle while keeping MB prices up for those not in any circles. While that's happening you have the true omni-crafters with alts who you can never really compete with in price on your own any ways.

That doesn't sound like a healthy economy to me - that sounds like the game becoming even less social.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

While that's happening you have the true omni-crafters with alts who you can never really compete with in price on your own any ways.

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So the omnicrafters are selling for such razor thin profits that you can't compete, yet the prices are horrifically inflated?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So the omnicrafters are selling for such razor thin profits that you can't compete, yet the prices are horrifically inflated?

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It's pretty simple to understand that you will not be able to compete with a crafter's fee on a mat you need, versus no crafter's fee.

Been selling hq adamantite ingots at 300-500k for a while now, and they sell all the time, and I still make profit. Meanwhile the other 4 2-star mats are going for 800k-1m each, and people still buy. If I can make them at my low price (all the while buying purified coke from other people), then so can the other people with the other 4 mats. Razor thin profit margin my ass.

If as I suspect they just DE-specialized all the former specialist recipe (see other thread),

Omnicrafting is back. :)

And half my reason for leveling an omnicrafter is gone. :( Oh well, it was fun anyway.

It looks like all 3-Star recipes are Specialist recipes. So now I'm glad my wife and I leveled omnicrafter alts. :)

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Originally Posted by keyburz

Been selling hq adamantite ingots at 300-500k for a while now, and they sell all the time, and I still make profit. Meanwhile the other 4 2-star mats are going for 800k-1m each, and people still buy. If I can make them at my low price (all the while buying purified coke from other people), then so can the other people with the other 4 mats. Razor thin profit margin my ass.

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Well for one, Adamantite Ingots weren't specialist crafts, so I'm not sure what you're even adding to this discussion.

Second, I never brought up "razor thin margins" at all.

Third, good byeeeeeee specialization crafts (at least the old ones): http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...d0980ac2b5a39c

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

Well for one, Adamantite Ingots weren't specialist crafts, so I'm not sure what you're even adding to this discussion.

Second, I never brought up "razor thin margins" at all.

Third, good byeeeeeee specialization crafts (at least the old ones): http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...d0980ac2b5a39c

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I never stated that you said razor thin margins, im saying this to anyone that thinks they even exist. If you wanna talk specialist crafts, I sell titanium alloy ingots at 15k each while the other materials go for 100k and up. Also, I seem to recall you saying in one of your posts that you were going to add me to block list. Seems you can still see my posts.

15k with profit compared to 100k, wake up ppl! Do your research and actually calculate the value of those goods you are willing to hand your hard earned money over for. I can put up a party finder requesting assistance for someone to hq some cloth at 5k each attempt, and spend 5-10k on the base mats, or even less if I feel inclined to farm diadem that day

You seemed pretty upset by my posted directed to you mindy, last time, that from then on I decided to not comment on your posts that you make from then on. But it seems you have lied about blocking me, and intend to try and continue to start a fight with me. So be it. Just remember, you responded first. I fully believed that you blocked me after that thread you made considering the complaints about the favor nodes being turned in for crafting materials.

Here, ill do the work for you.

Thread: Please don't gate scrips behind folklore gathering items in 3.2.
post number 54

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

It's pretty simple to understand that you will not be able to compete with a crafter's fee on a mat you need, versus no crafter's fee.

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So two people splitting the profit of the finished product (you and the crafter that made your mat) makes it unprofitable? Or is the person making the mat getting a bigger profit for his one specialist synth than the omnicrafter for his two specialist synths?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So two people splitting the profit of the finished product (you and the crafter that made your mat) makes it unprofitable? Or is the person making the mat getting a bigger profit for his one specialist synth than the omnicrafter for his two specialist synths?

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If person A had all specialists unlocked via alts, and was competing with person B, who only had 3 specialists, for any specialist crafts that required specialist mats that person B did not have, he would be at a disadvantage price-wise, because he would never be able to escape a crafter's fee.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

If person A had all specialists unlocked via alts, and was competing with person B, who only had 3 specialists, for any specialist crafts that required specialist mats that person B did not have, he would be at a disadvantage price-wise, because he would never be able to escape a crafter's fee.

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You're ignoring person C, who collects that crafter's fee.

Person A does 2 specialist synths for X amount of gil profit
Persons B and C each do 1 specialist synth and split that same X amount of gil profit

If person A is selling for inflated prices, then persons B and C stand to each make a nice profit by competing with person A. If person A is selling for a tiny profit, then it's not specialization lockouts that's keeping competition low.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You're ignoring person C, who collects that crafter's fee.

Person A does 2 specialist synths for X amount of gil profit
Persons B and C each do 1 specialist synth and split that same X amount of gil profit

If person A is selling for inflated prices, then persons B and C stand to each make a nice profit by competing with person A. If person A is selling for a tiny profit, then it's not specialization lockouts that's keeping competition low.

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I have no idea where you're going with this at this point. If person A has all specialists available to him via alts, and person B doesn't, person A will be able to craft any specialist craft requiring specialist mats at a lower price than person B, because he's not carrying specialist crafting fees with him. Person A could just price out person B, to the point where he can't compete, and will thus not buy person C's mats.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

I have no idea where you're going with this at this point. If person A has all specialists available to him via alts, and person B doesn't, person A will be able to craft any specialist craft requiring specialist mats at a lower price than person B, because he's not carrying specialist crafting fees with him. Person A could just price out person B, to the point where he can't compete, and will thus not buy person C's mats.

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And Person A continues to sell for no profit just to be a jerk? What happened to all the collusion leading to artificially inflated prices?

Where there is a profit in the synth, there will be competition. If nobody is willing to buy for more than the cost of materials, the market will be stale. Specialist lockouts won't change that. If person A is willing to spend several hours a day crafting top level recipes for no profit, they might be able to keep everyone else out.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

And Person A continues to sell for no profit just to be a jerk? What happened to all the collusion leading to artificially inflated prices?

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Person A would be making a profit. I'm not sure where anybody stated otherwise. Person A could also be a jerk and just drive people out until they've given up trying to sell.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

Person A would be making a profit. I'm not sure where anybody stated otherwise. Person A could also be a jerk and just drive people out until they've given up trying to sell.

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If person A is making a profit, then Person B can make a profit from buying Person C's mats and making the same item. If person C is selling their mats for so much that person B can't make a profit, then their stuff won't sell and they will either lower the price or someone will come in and undercut them.

Either way, the grossly inflated prices won't be there as long as there is a steady supply of base materials (which are cheap esoteric items and unspoiled nodes). In any event, the huge profits on high level items will be made in the first few weeks, like always. Afterwards, prices across the board will drop.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If person A is making a profit, then Person B can make a profit from buying Person C's mats and making the same item. If person C is selling their mats for so much that person B can't make a profit, then their stuff won't sell and they will either lower the price or someone will come in and undercut them.

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Person A can also sell at cost or at a loss until Person B stops trying the market. In any given situation, Person A will always be able to price their product below Person B, because Person C isn't running a charity. Worst case scenario, if Person C can't sell the product, Person C stops selling the product, and then Person B has no recourse to even craft the thing.

Given the specialist requirements, you already have less competition so undercutting isn't as big an issue (the short-sightedness I've mentioned before).

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

Person A can also sell at cost or at a loss until Person B stops trying the market. In any given situation, Person A will always be able to price their product below Person B, because Person C isn't running a charity. Worst case scenario, if Person C can't sell the product, Person C stops selling the product, and then Person B has no recourse to even craft the thing.

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If they can sell for a profit, there will be a market and stuff will sell, period.

You're describing the same situation that has always existed in crafting, except mixing in specialist lockouts and pretending it's new and different. You won't be on equal ground with someone that puts in more time/effort/money into it. Specialist lockouts didn't create that fact of life, and removing them won't change it. If you could change that truth, crafting would be worthless.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If they can sell for a profit, there will be a market and stuff will sell, period.

You're describing the same situation that has always existed in crafting, except mixing in specialist lockouts and pretending it's new and different. You won't be on equal ground with someone that puts in more time/effort/money into it. Specialist lockouts didn't create that fact of life, and removing them won't change it. If you could change that truth, crafting would be worthless.

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You can't make a profit if you don't sell anything. If you're a buyer and see product A at a cheaper cost than product B, you're going to buy product A. If Crafter A can always make a profit while undercutting Crafter B because Crafter A isn't dealing with crafters fees on specialist mats, then Crafter A will always sell before Crafter B, and Crafter B's product will linger unless he is willing to sell basically at cost.

I don't think I can explain this any clearer, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

I don't think I can explain this any clearer, sorry.

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Your assumption is that the "crafter's fee" that person C is charging for one specialist synth is higher than person A's profit from two different specialist synths, at which point it won't sell.

If you're a crafter, you probably know that the duty finder works for crafting too, and several crafters will do a synth for cheap if you can provide the mats.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Your assumption is that the "crafter's fee" that person C is charging for one specialist synth is higher than person A's profit from two different specialist synths, at which point it won't sell.

If you're a crafter, you probably know that the duty finder works for crafting too, and several crafters will do a synth for cheap if you can provide the mats.

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Person A is not seeking a profit on two separate synths though. That's what you are overlooking.
Person A is not taking his Pterodactyls and seeing what profit he can get for making Pterodactyl Straps. He is taking his Pterodactyls, making the P Straps, then turning that into an Adamantite Francesca.

Person B is buying someone else's P Straps and trying to use the sale of the Adamantite Francesca to cover the cost of the P Leather, other materials for the Francesca, and make whatever profit he can. If Person B is lucky, he can find someone (Person C, or perhaps get in touch with Person A) willing to turn his Pterodactyls into P Straps for him, at a lower cost than the P Strap fetches on the Board, but it still increases his overhead. (Yes, I know, Pterodactyl Straps are not Specialist-Only anymore. They still get the point across.)


And the person hurt most by all of this is not A, B, or C - it is the BUYER. Persons A and B are trying to sell for the highest they can, while still actually selling their products. Lacking the need to pay off Person C, Person A can sell for less than Person B, often to the point that Person B cannot even make any profit. Person A is still able to make a profit, however, because he's not depending upon someone else to provide materials for him.

The Specailization system prevents other people from intruding into the markets that A, B, and C are operating in, however, for they lack the requisite Specializations. That minimizes the competition, the need, to reduce the prices they are putting them up for. This ends up hurting the market, by reducing the number of sales (fewer can, or want to, pay), thereby reducing the total profit the crafters are able to generate, which reduces the amount they can craft to put up for sale, in a vicious cycle.

The rampant undercutting was a result of too much supply, not enough demand, for any given item. The Specialization system does nothing at all to address the demand - it only cuts sharply into the supply. Specialist-only recipes are, and have been, bad for the market as a whole, regardless of how well a few individuals have been able to use the Specialization-Only recipes to take Gil from others and line their pockets with it.

Blacksmith IV book is specialist lock,they did it again !! The lock again whyyyy?!!

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Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

Blacksmith IV book is specialist lock,they did it again !! The lock again whyyyy?!!

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All the new 3-Star recipes are Specialist recipes. Specialization is going to be pretty important now. It's not for Relic mats anymore, it's for most if not all of the high-profit, high-end crafts. Which are very difficult to HQ BTW.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

Only problem is that now I have to bother a friend to do it, and they in turn have to ask me to do stuff, instead of doing it on our own time whenever. It's pretty inconvenient.

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Exchanging goods for services? Say it ain't so! The nerve of a healthy market!

Person A has 0 crafter's fee on the intermediate mat in order to gain an edge on selling the final product at a price competitors can't match. That assumption is not really far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Exchanging goods for services? Say it ain't so! The nerve of a healthy market!

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This answer always ignores the notion that such a system existed before specialist recipes existed, but it sure does sound witty.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Person A is not seeking a profit on two separate synths though. That's what you are overlooking.
Person A is not taking his Pterodactyls and seeing what profit he can get for making Pterodactyl Straps. He is taking his Pterodactyls, making the P Straps, then turning that into an Adamantite Francesca.

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Company A is trying to sell a phone that they made from scratch at a profit of $50 per.
Company B is trying to sell a comparable camera for a comparable phone to Company C for $50 profit per.

Company B expects to make as much profit for doing half as much as Company A, and then cries because nobody buys their cameras. Then company D comes along and sells cameras to Company C for a reasonable price. Capitalism at work.

That analogy has literally nothing to do with how omni-crafting specialists work and their advantage over everybody else, and I would claim that is not "capitalism at work" at all.

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

That analogy has literally nothing to do with how omni-crafting specialists work and their advantage over everybody else, and I would claim that is not "capitalism at work" at all.

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Capitalism isn't a place where the rich can create monopolies and just get richer.

Oh, wait. That is exactly what capitalism allows.

So in the end, like or not, specialist system came to stay (at least now for couple months more).

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

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You're ignoring/contradicting/assuming a lot of stuff here.

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Person B is buying someone else's P Straps and trying to use the sale of the Adamantite Francesca to cover the cost of the P Leather, other materials for the Francesca, and make whatever profit he can. If Person B is lucky, he can find someone (Person C, or perhaps get in touch with Person A) willing to turn his Pterodactyls into P Straps for him, at a lower cost than the P Strap fetches on the Board, but it still increases his overhead.

. . .Persons A and B are trying to sell for the highest they can, while still actually selling their products. Lacking the need to pay off Person C, Person A can sell for less than Person B, often to the point that Person B cannot even make any profit. Person A is still able to make a profit, however, because he's not depending upon someone else to provide materials for him.

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Why would Person B do this if he knows he can't compete with Person A's price? He wouldn't. The demand is there, but it's looking for a lower price than is being offered. It won't sell. The supply is not being depleted. If Person A can cut into his price and still make a profit, then so can Person C. And so he will, because if he does not, Person D (whom you conveniently omitted), someone who is willing to take the cut, will.

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And the person hurt most by all of this is not A, B, or C - it is the BUYER.

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But you said that the problem here is that Person A can sell cheaper than Person B + C. Mind explaining how the buyer is being hurt by lower prices than what B + C had on offer?

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The Specailization system prevents other people from intruding into the markets that A, B, and C are operating in, however, for they lack the requisite Specializations. That minimizes the competition, the need, to reduce the prices they are putting them up for. This ends up hurting the market, by reducing the number of sales (fewer can, or want to, pay), thereby reducing the total profit the crafters are able to generate, which reduces the amount they can craft to put up for sale, in a vicious cycle.

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Persons A, B, and C are multiple people all competing for each other. You know this, so I'm not sure why you exaggerate the number of people involved. There are multiple Person A's, B's and C's all competing with each other's prices. It really only takes a few to drive prices down. But there are far more than that all competing with each other.