Samurai the next tank XD

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

BD's dark knight is amazing as well. So many toys revolving around one's HP, as it has always been.

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Wasn't gonna bring up DRK since you know BDFF like Explorers just gets the Job right. Instead of the shit in XIV.

Full absorb magic(restore MP....hm!?) to do nothing to you and Minus Strike to inflict the amount of HP missing is awesome.

Not to mention Life or Death being what should have happened in addition to Living Dead's main draw.

And "See you in Hell" would be a neat gimmick if the Dark Knight died. Dealing big damage like say 500 pot if the Dark Knight died to all enemies in the encounter.

I mean Life or Death is awesome(Your physical attack magic attack, physical defense, and magic defense rise 50% for four turns, but you enter the doomed state. The upper limit for P.Atk, M.Atk, P.Def, M.Def is 150%.)

^I mean come on.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I mean Life or Death is awesome(Your physical attack magic attack, physical defense, and magic defense rise 50% for four turns, but you enter the doomed state. The upper limit for P.Atk, M.Atk, P.Def, M.Def is 150%.)

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And this is a prime example of why DRK has always been *somewhat* beefy, in the form of a certain skill, defense, hp, or armor ratings, because it sacrificed its integrity in a number of ways, by casting Doom on itself, or most commonly, by using its own hp as a source of *raw damage*. And that is why the FFXIV version of DRK doesn't feel right.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

And this is a prime example of why DRK has always been *somewhat* beefy, in the form of a certain skill, defense, hp, or armor ratings, because it sacrificed its integrity in a number of ways, by casting Doom on itself, or most commonly, by using its own hp as a source of *raw damage*. And that is why the FFXIV version of DRK doesn't feel right.

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Exactly.

On another note you can compare Paladin and Templar and go whoa as well.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Exactly.

On another note you can compare Paladin and Templar and go whoa as well.

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I would've totally made Templar the Heavensward tank, even going as far as to branching it off Lancer, and allow a shield to be equipped, then use LNC weapon skills with new effects and animations, such as the Full Thrust combo being the enmity combo, for example, and the Chaos Thrust combo having a fitting effect.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I would've totally made Templar the Heavensward tank, even going as far as to branching it off Lancer

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Too bad so much people complained about SCH and SMN branching from Arcanist, even though both jobs are very powerful... :(

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Too bad so much people complained about SCH and SMN branching from Arcanist, even though both jobs are very powerful... :(

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SCH/SMN was a... weird... concept. The biggest problem with it is that you can level SMN to 60 and suddenly you've also got a SCH to 60 - this sounds useful but it also means you were potentially not touching SCH at all for 30 levels and your only experience with it is going to be through the job quests, unless you decide to arbitrarily go through every dungeon again. It's a difficult problem to solve, though, mainly due to the class being tacked on to both jobs. There's probably something they could've done to fix that, though I think making jobs separate from classes altogether is better as it allows them to fully flesh out that job's toolkit without having to work around connecting one class' skill set to two possibly largely different jobs (ie Templar and Dragoon).

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The biggest problem with it is that you can level SMN to 60 and suddenly you've also got a SCH to 60

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This applies to me. I lack the experience to play Smn proficiently. So many skills to figure out, and all at once, so it's kinda overwhelming. I could fix this by like... Putting the time in. But I would have preferred to level it by itself. Also sharing Stat allocation if you play both is a real pain in the ass. Need to carry around those dealy things all the time to reset if you're switching. Not a huge deal.... but It's annoying and gets old.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

SCH/SMN was a... weird... concept. The biggest problem with it is that you can level SMN to 60 and suddenly you've also got a SCH to 60 - this sounds useful but it also means you were potentially not touching SCH at all for 30 levels and your only experience with it is going to be through the job quests, unless you decide to arbitrarily go through every dungeon again.

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It's not really a "game design" problem. Yes, you can level up a lvl 60 healer without any healing experience thanks to this. But since you could technically level anything by doing only low-level dungeons (Providing the Duty Roulette always give you one) or levequests, you could end with a any lvl 60 job without any real field experience.

Or you could end with a level 60 crafter without crafting anything :p

I'd say that this is even a good idea to introduce people to healing. Queuing time as a DPS can be a real pain. So you could see this as "Ok, you like SMN ? Well try healing as a SCH and, in the end, you will play your beloved SMN, too".

That's why I posted, loooooooong ago, that all classes should have one DPS job, and one healer/tank job.
Were DRK a DPS branching from Gladiator, everybody would have leveled PLD ;)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's not really a "game design" problem. Yes, you can level up a lvl 60 healer without any healing experience thanks to this. But since you could technically level anything by doing only low-level dungeons (Providing the Duty Roulette always give you one) or levequests, you could end with a any lvl 60 job without any real field experience.

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That, also, is a game design problem. :P

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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This is completely off topic, But I'm not the one who took it there... so don't blame me.

I don't think from a Developers or Players perspective it's a good decision to emulate what happened with Sch and Smn.

From a Developers standpoint it means less time spent playing their game. Less time spent in dungeons perpetuating the leveling process, something developers are constantly trying to keep active due to the influx of new players and old players leveling another class. It's something that constantly needs to be taken into account and monitored, otherwise players will get bored and quit the game before even getting into the really good stuff.


From a Players standpoint it means less time spent learning a class they want to level and this is where bad habits can form, ones people might have avoided had they the experience and time put into the class. In the end, you're going to end up spending just as much time on summoner practicing on a dummy just to get yourself up to par, understanding your rotation and how a class is suppose to function in multiple scenarios. Except you're not given a dungeon and actual scenarios to practice them on. That is, unless like what SpookyGhost said, You systematically go through the dungeons again. Something you would have done in the first place, had your class not been shared with another.

Leveling is suppose to be a learning experience, a gradual introduction to your class in a manageable form. I do agree that if you're looking to play Smn, it's nice to have had the option to be a Sch for faster DF Que times. But that honestly comes with the territory, If Que times are really your main concern then Healing and Tanking Might be a better class for you. Things aren't going to drastically change once you're capped level. I also like the idea of people trying something different for the sake of a parallel class. But I don't think people should avoid playing their desired class, just because Sch has a faster Que up.

I also don't think it's fair to assume the worst possible scenario like always getting a low level dungeon in Roulettes all the way to 60. Not only is that statistically near an impossibility, but it's also not practical and efficient (also super boring, no one can honestly look me in the eye and tell me they don't want to try out their new found abilities).
To be quite frank, it is a game design problem if Devs are not thinking about how they're intuitively teaching players how to play their own game. Whether you'd like to believe it or not, games teach you how to play them, usually without actually saying a single word. Developers generally do a pretty good job at respecting the intelligence level of their community. Some things DO need to be written out for you because they can't accurately be told through experience (things like what Duty finder actually is), especially in an MMO where it's easy to be overwhelmed with information, people new tho the MMO genre are susceptible to that problem. But how you play your class is for the most part up to the player, be it efficiently, or not. I don't believe it's fair to rob anyone of a leveling experience just to save a few hours.

Land Sea Sky for example is from what I can tell a teaching tool to make players more comfortable with Savage and playing their own class effectively. You can focus on doing what your class was designed to do with these set benchmarks. So once you're actually raiding, you have already committed part of the fight to muscle memory, your rotations.

The Question to ask is, Why did they introduce these? If you ask me, it's because they know a large % of people don't even want to attempt Savage. Not because they are incapable or inept. But because the game already does a poor job teaching you how to interact correctly with other human players. A lot of people go through this game riding Duty Finder. And you can do this, right up until the current end of story without speaking a single word to anyone. Much like our actual characters IN the story-line. Kinda ironic actually. Because of that, team work really suffers. Not only do you make fewer friends on the way up to capped level whom you might have formed a static with, you also don't do yourself any favors when the constructive criticism is coming from a random you might just think is being a dick. The Practice dummies won't fix the social problem or team work issue, But it'll help players not be as intimidated and hopefully seek out statics and groups to do the challenging content with a level of confidence they might not have had prior.

TLDR; My opinion is, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives when it comes to Arcanist splitting off into Smn/Sch. Teaching tools need to be strewn about the game that respect the player. It was a failed experiment I hope they don't repeat in the future.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

That, also, is a game design problem. :P

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You can't force people to be competent at their job.
Or better, it's not worth it to make leveling harder to make sure "bad" people play all their jobs properly as opposed to help involved people progress faster.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

From a Developers standpoint it means less time spent playing their game.

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I understand that. But since they give more and more options to leveling faster and faster, I really doubt that "leveling process" is a playtime they focus on.

And, sadly, the fact you can level everything means you can easily clear almost every dungeon without putting real effort in one specific job. I once ended in T10 with a WAR that didn't even unlocked Infuriate. Apart from that, he was a really competent BRD and WHM.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Land Sea Sky for example is from what I can tell a teaching tool to make players more comfortable with Savage and playing their own class effectively.

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Like you, I think the "comfortable" part is the most important one. I'm pretty there are hundreds of people out there that play very well, but are just afraid of going into Savage, either by the content itself or by the players they'll end up with. SSS is a good way to tell them "Don't worry, you can do it"

For your TL;DR, see the first part of this post. It's just my opinion, though.

It's not like they couldn't have worked around the SMN/SCH concept and made it so you had Templar unlocked at lv30 and leveled separately from LNC, just like the new jobs. Let's, uh, think outside the box, maybe? That's not even hard to do, branching doesn't mean it's gotta be exactly what we know.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

To be fair all the Job Classes in BDFF work as intended and make sense as well.

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+1 to this.

A samurai tank that specializes in counter damage like the Swordmaster/Samurai in BD would be really fun.

Samurai tank would be fun... But I do think that another sword tank would be slightly vanilla. Do something unexpected, like with AST and their globe. Holding out for Dancer tank personally!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't force people to be competent at their job.

They give more and more options to leveling faster and faster, I really doubt that "leveling process" is a playtime they focus on.

And, sadly, the fact you can level everything means you can easily clear almost every dungeon without putting real effort in one specific job.

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It's true, you can't force anyone to be competent at their class.
However, people are deserving of a chance, and at least they familiarize themselves with with skills and abilities available to them.

I've played since the beginning. Fates were at one time the fastest way to level, Dungeons then got buffed and are now top exp. I don't think Levequests are a viable option personally. But outside those 2 first methods I'm not sure what faster ways you're talking about. To me they're quite slow and enough time to familiarize yourself with the class and what it's capable of. ofc it's going to take a lot of time and effort to really nail a class. And that isn't something you're going to get from dungeons alone no. but it gives you a solid base. Which is imo fundamental.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

It's not like they couldn't have worked around the SMN/SCH concept and made it so you had Templar unlocked at lv30 and leveled separately from LNC, just like the new jobs. Let's, uh, think outside the box, maybe? That's not even hard to do, branching doesn't mean it's gotta be exactly what we know.

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I don't think that's necessarily a bad Idea.

However, some classes are still starting out at level 1. And unless they seriously fast track those levels up to level 30, you're still decreasing overall playtime. My concern isn't veteran players or whatever. My concern is for new players. We could add new systems to make it easier and faster for them. I'm not against it. What i'm against is the alienation of new blood. I would hate to perpetuate an idea that prevents new players from potentially loving the game.

I mean, not a lot of time is spent in those low levels, I get it. I really do. But we gotta at least try remember what it was like back then. If I couldn't Que up for dungeons as Archer back in the day due to lack of people, or whatever reason. I'm left to think either "no one is playing this game" Or "this is so boring, if it's this boring now and i'm stuck doing stupid fates and having limited Levequests per day. Who's to say the rest of the game is any different"

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

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It is no different from what they've done with DRK, AST, and MCH. They start at lv30. Even with SCH if you ask me, as it changes roles once you pick that up at 30.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't force people to be competent at their job.

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Actually, you can. Carrot/stick them hardcore when they're in your static.
Got a monk up 100 dps back in scob.

Also: What the hell is going on here.

I'd love to see an OT move in which you intercept the next attack and counter in proportion to the damage dealt, as a more offensive alternative to cover. That being said, I do hope that the next tank to be introduced is a non-sword tank, simply for variety.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

It is no different from what they've done with DRK, AST, and MCH. They start at lv30. Even with SCH if you ask me, as it changes roles once you pick that up at 30.

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You're right. Drk, Ast, Mch do follow similar though not exactly the same rules and that also kinda worries me (in that there is even less activity in lower levels). But you at least play the class you're leveling on those 3. You don't level Ast to level up your Mch.

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Originally Posted by Violette

Actually, you can. Carrot/stick them hardcore when they're in your static.
Got a monk up 100 dps back in scob.

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Because he agreed to follow the carrot.
Stick them too hard, they'll just dump you

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

You're right. Drk, Ast, Mch do follow similar though not exactly the same rules and that also kinda worries me (in that there is even less activity in lower levels). But you at least play the class you're leveling on those 3. You don't level Ast to level up your Mch.

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That is exactly why I said it would start at lv30 no matter what level your LNC was...? I don't know what's the confusion about what I proposed. It would work exactly like the new jobs do in that it'd start at 30 and level independently from there on.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

That is exactly why I said it would start at lv30 no matter what level your LNC was...? I don't know what's the confusion about what I proposed.

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The confusion is that you said Templar would "branch of" LNC. If the job is like DRK, AST and MCH, it'd branch from nothing.
They could have a one-handed spear if you like the weapon, but they wouldn't have the core skills of LNC...and probably GLD and MRD as cross-class, since it seems to be mandatory :(

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The confusion is that you said Templar would "branch of" LNC. If the job is like DRK, AST and MCH, it'd branch from nothing.
They could have a one-handed spear if you like the weapon, but they wouldn't have the core skills of LNC...and probably GLD and MRD as cross-class, since it seems to be mandatory :(

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As in you need LNC30, or even 50, and not just any job. And the fact that it'd use the very same weapon skills. Which I explained a few posts ago. That'd be branching off of it.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

As in you need LNC30, or even 50, and not just any job. And the fact that it'd use the very same weapon skills. Which I explained a few posts ago. That'd be branching off of it.

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May I ask why you would specifically need LNC ?
If they're allowed to wear shields, it means you need to redo all the animations. So, if Templar need new weapons, new animations, new effects and need to be leveled separately from LNC, why not make a totally new job, with a one-handed spear and a shield ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

May I ask why you would specifically need LNC ?
If they're allowed to wear shields, it means you need to redo all the animations. So, if Templar need new weapons, new animations, new effects and need to be leveled separately from LNC, why not make a totally new job, with a one-handed spear and a shield ?

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Because it's a lancer much like dragoon.
They would not need new weapons, and that's how the armoury system works in this game, once again restricting everything.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Because it's a lancer much like dragoon.
They would not need new weapons, and that's how the armoury system works in this game, once again restricting everything.

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Well, one-handed spear+shield is a LNC as GLA is DRK, so...not at all.

The problem is not that Armory is restricting everything...you are the one that restricts your Templar.
You want to tie TMP to LNC, but you also want to level LNC and TMP separately, with new animations and new effect.

These two views don't match and the armory can offer two simple alternatives. TMP really branching of LNC like SCH from ACN or TMP as an Extra job, and not tied to any class at all.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, one-handed spear+shield is a LNC as GLA is DRK, so...not at all.

The problem is not that Armory is restricting everything...you are the one that restricts your Templar.
You want to tie TMP to LNC, but you also want to level LNC and TMP separately, with new animations and new effect.

These two views don't match and the armory can offer two simple alternatives. TMP really branching of LNC like SCH from ACN or TMP as an Extra job, and not tied to any class at all.

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Ok.
/10char