How do many of you feel about helping?

I have no problem helping people! However, after a full try (i think what is it..1.5 hr?) and it is clear we cannot win after I patiently give them tips and advice, that is usually when it seems hopeless and I say nice try guys and thanks etc.

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Originally Posted by Synrin

See? That is selfish. You do it for your own merit. I do it too. I help randoms I will never see again, be it in Duty Finder or doing some random FATE I stumble upon. Because later I feel nice.
If you want to give your utter best you will do things that you find dreadful. So the guy who didn't want to do Thornmarch is a) not a helper b) not as thankful as he should be c) selfish as all of us other motherduckers
If I help someone by giving them 2h of my time, then it would be nice if they did the same for me. If they don't, then that tells more about them than me, now doesn't it?
The point being, which I find quite obvious now, is that people are selfish, and always will be. They are even selective helpers. I will do it if I feel like doing it and/or it has a benefit.

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No, it's not selfish, it's actually the opposite... it's selfless. Just because you get joy from helping others doesn't make you selfish because you're fulfilling your own happiness in the process.

As for the person in question, I wouldn't say he was wrong necessarily to turn down the request. But not because I don't think he "owed" something. But instead, if he DOESN'T like the run, guess what? He probably doesn't know it well and OBVIOUSLY isn't very good at it. Otherwise, he wouldn't mind it. So by turning the person down, he honestly probably did him a favor. Extreme modes require everyone to be on point. And to do Thornmarch Ex with 3 people (as the poster said he was trying to complete it with only 2) is a hard feat. Some advice my father gave me long ago and has stuck with me.
"Don't ever give what you're not willing to part with without return."
Now this advice was specifically in terms of money, but I think it can be applied with time as well. If I choose to do something, I will do so because I am willing to. Not because I expect to get something back out of it in return from them. If they do happen to do so, great, that's an awesome perk. But I won't hold someone hostage for my choice to help them.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

No, it's not selfish, it's actually the opposite... it's selfless. Just because you get joy from helping others doesn't make you selfish because you're fulfilling your own happiness in the process.

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I already saw this episode of Friends.

@Syrin You fail to see the difference between giving without expecting anything in return and giving with in the back of the mind the notion of repayment which is much what you fall into. Also, to help you must be effective if my helping you is going to make your day sad i will not do it not because of me but because of you, i care enough not to impose a nightmare on you, maybe learning some nuances wouls nake you some good. It will come with experience i suppose

I'll fight with a group who wipe with good mood any day, before a perfect group who talk other people down.

I usually help people. But some people you can't help.

Yesterday, went into a leveling roulette with my WHM. Got into Stone Vigil.

Tank was a Gladiator. Oh boy.

So, just protected, stoneskinned, and watched what would happen. The DPSers seemed to be hesitant as well. The Tank (Mr Ducksworth, I believe) approached the first pack, used every single cooldown that they had (including tempered will), and then inched towards the mobs. Most of the buffs were gone before he engaged.

His first move? Rage of Halone. Second? Rage of Halone. He used nothing but Rage of Halone in combat.

So while tanking the to adds and keeping up the other DPS that was holding the mob he was Rage of Haloneing, I said into chat "Please use Flash to hold the mobs". We eventually killed them all, him still using RoH every cooldown. Second pull got 2 dragons from the next room, and I just couldn't keep myself alive.

Everyone ressed, and I started talking in chat, saying that I'd be happy to help him out. The DPS said similar. Was completely ignored, and the tank just ran off to die again. We kicked him. There's no way to help someone who refuses to interact with the party.

I felt bad, but what can you do in a situation like that? You can only help those willing to be helped.

Is constant wipes enough for you to stop helping PUGs? I try to help as much as I can until a party is completely empty or people are tired of trying. Even if I have everything from a piece of content I want to win and help just as much as people who are clearing for the first time. I really enjoy helping people get through content.

Does people who do more joking that fighting make you stop? Joking helps make runs less boring or tedious. It can be a good way to blow off steam if you've been doing a fight for over an hour so I don't really see it as a reason to stop helping at all.

Are you the type who leave at the sign of "bonus" popping on the screen? I like seeing the bonus pop up because it lets me know someone may need an explanation. If it doesn't pop up I assume everyone should more or less know what they're doing. The only thing I dislike about seeing the bonus is that people are very reluctant to actually admit to being the person with a bonus. It won't make me leave but it will let me know what to expect during a random run.

I live off bonuses to poetry and law, saves me from running alex constantly. I'm the go to in our fc for new players to unlock their lvl 50 roulette. Ill do all 17 runs unsynced in a row. This game, like FFXI, for me has always been about community, progression for me sits on the back burner. I've seen A3S, still have yet to complete, but again I've never farmed savage or coil for that matter, being the type to beat it, leave it for personal gain, and only revisit to help others get their clears. That said, your OP fits me, helper, don't get much help, not that I need it ;D, but I get the satisfaction of no one in my FC being gated from content due to missing clears. Again the poetry/ law bonuses are real. Just Helping 1 member clear garuda ex-Shiva ex is 700 poetry for maybe 60 mins of work.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I already saw this episode of Friends.

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dying xD

/10char

I've been helping people since launch, the real question is "How do you feel about RECEIVING help?"

The ones like me know what I'm talking about.

I absolutely love helping, as long as people are willing to be helped and not expecting to be carried. There's a HUGE difference between being new, and being a noob.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I absolutely love helping, as long as people are willing to be helped and not expecting to be carried. There's a HUGE difference between being new, and being a noob.

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Technically.. there isn't? Noob = Newb = Newbie = Person who is new.

That said, I agree. My satisfaction for helping others is directly related to their reception of my help.

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

I've been helping people since launch, the real question is "How do you feel about RECEIVING help?"

The ones like me know what I'm talking about.

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Definitely a good question. It's very hard to receive tips, especially if you believe that you're already doing quite well. For example, I recently had another SMN give me advice on how to kill the adds in A1 (this was while farming A1N for the relic). They said the way I was doing it resulted in a DPS loss. Instead of taking the advice well, my immediate reaction was "Well, I do more damage than you, so? o.0". It was a pretty petty response and quite rude, considering he was just offering a tip.

I was on voice with my friends and they pointed out how I was pretty lame in my response. One friend pointed out that whether we do more or less damage, it doesn't mean we cannot learn from others. So afterward, I sent him a tell and apologized. I started trying his tip and have adopted it in A1S as well. It works quite well, and am glad I got over my initial defensive attitude.

Point being, it's hard to accept advice and not be defensive. It's also hard to admit that you're wrong.

Some of these tales sound so arduous it's almost comical. If I trial roulette and get ifrit hm and there's 1 new guy, no, I don't stop the train to explain every mechanic and setup a stun rotation. We just zerg the crap outta it and go on with our lives. If I get a new /undergeared healer in a dungeon I'll just do small pulls and type a line about major boss mechanics when we get there. If a dps is bad or undergeared then I just accept it's gonna take an extra 5 min. Some posts make it sound like this is some great saintly act. It's just rudimentary online gaming. I don't consider that 'helping' people. That's just trying to successfully complete the content you signed up for with whoever you were randomly stuck with.

If a friend needs help wth a specific thing then sure I'll go. But no, I don't just join random shouts and learning party PFs for the fun of it if that's what your asking. I don't have hours a day to just give to random people on the internet.

Rage quitting is for babies. You signed up for that roulette knowing you can get anything. You joined that learning party PF. Deal with it or don't sign up.

I'll help anytime I'm able to do so. I like to stick to the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As an example, when in a crystal farm party I'll see others say, "Sweet! I got my third crystal. Alright guys thanks! See ya!" and then they leave while the people who helped them are still in the group and have not yet gotten all of the crystals that they need. So when I get my third crystal I will stick with the group for at least another hour to pay back everyone for helping me get my crystals.

If a group is wiping I will hang in there for as long as I can because I'm one who feels that the group can only improve and we will get the win if we keep trying. It's only if the group are being rude and not taking things seriously that I will leave.

I don't mind helping people with items or gil that they may need, if I can afford to do so.

I try to help out as much as possible and, as other have mentioned, I hope that the people I help will pay it forward when given the opportunity to do so.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Snip

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You perfectly know the context in which both are used.
Jesus, really...?

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

You perfectly know the context in which both are used.
Jesus, really...?

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Can you explain your response better? I am not sure what you are referring to.

edits etc..

After re-reading our posts, I think you are saying that I know the context in which both noob and new player are used? In which case, yes, I use noob to mean new player - as in "I'm a noob" when I encounter something for the first time. I've never referred to someone who plays poorly as a noob, if that is what you mean?

Whenever a bonus pops up, my first words in 90% of cases are 'Who's new?' I live for info dumps, so I'm always happy to give new players the lowdown on a fight, and answer any questions they have. Of course, the group often goes before I can finish my explanation. Or they beat me to the punch.

In my experience, most are open to constructive criticism, key word here being 'constructive.' Two particular incidents stick out in my mind. In a Thousand Maws run I was healing, I noticed the group was moving unusually slow. After observing cast bars, I realized the BLM wasn't using Blizzard II. I advised him that Blizz II was a good idea on any mob with more then 2 enemies. He didn't really say anything back, but afterwards I observed him following my exact advice. It wasn't perfect, of course, but it sped up the run appropriately and it was an improvement. So I simply smiled and finished the run.

Another time, I did a Copperbell Mines run with a player who was clearly very new. She was an Arcanist, and was using Topaz Carbuncle (!). Very early on, me and the tank politely asked her to switch to Emerald Carby. She didn't respond, nor switch out her pet. Just as I had internally dismissed her as a 'stubborn DPS' she suddenly spoke up in chat after the second boss. I immediately used the opportunity to talk to her, and in short order she gladly switched out her Carbuncle, as well as listening to my advice on playing ACN. She earned my comm for it, and we parted on good terms. I'm still baffled how she missed us talking the first time, though.

Both incidents highlighted for me that a lot of bad play is born out of simple, unwillful ignorance. It is *not* self-evident that using Blizz 2 on mobs with 3+ enemies is ideal, nor is it obvious that using Topaz Carbuncle in dungeons is a really bad idea. It doesn't help that the vast majority of guides, especially for DPS classes, are geared towards endgame players who often already know what they're doing. I speak from painful experience here. When I first started playing Summoner, I immediately went looking for information on how to play my class. I stumbled upon Hai Hai's Summoner guide, only to be overwhelmed by talk of stat weights, DoT breakpoints, etc, when I was just looking for the absolute dos and don'ts for my job. (I'm currently trying to address this problem constructively by writing a guide specifically for beginner-midcore SMN players).

Above all else, I criticize my own play before criticizing anyone else's. A little humility goes a long way to making people receptive to suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Can you explain your response better? I am not sure what you are referring to.

edits etc..

After re-reading our posts, I think you are saying that I know the context in which both noob and new player are used? In which case, yes, I use noob to mean new player - as in "I'm a noob" when I encounter something for the first time. I've never referred to someone who plays poorly as a noob, if that is what you mean?

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Yeah, noob is a new player, I'm Canadian, so I refer to the "bad player" as the "Hoser" but fill in your appropriate slang here, but noob(newb and Newbie) has a pretty standard definition.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Yeah, noob is a new player, I'm Canadian, so I refer to the "bad player" as the "Hoser" but fill in your appropriate slang here, but noob(newb and Newbie) has a pretty standard definition.

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My preferred word choice is 'Scrub' :P

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Technically.. there isn't? Noob = Newb = Newbie = Person who is new.

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No.

Newb/Newbie is the term for people that are new to the game.

Noobs are people that aren't willing to admit or change their bad playstyle.


People keep using that noob term for calling out new people, but that is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Is constant wipes enough for you to stop helping PUGs?

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That all depends on the circumstances. If it's DF, I'm pretty mule-stubborn about giving people a chance to fix mistakes. If it's someone that joined a farm party insisting they know what's going on, my patience is a lot shorter lived. Either way, if we have someone that's just not learning (or not even bothering to try) then yes I will eventually stop helping. If I'm giving advice meant to help us clear but it's not being listened to, that's the point where I feel I'm wasting my time and mayaswell not even bother.

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Does people who do more joking that fighting make you stop?

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If it's causing wipes and loss of progress, yes. Some people can't talk and focus on the fight at the same time. I'll flat-out ask them to stop talking about anything that doesn't involve the current fight if it's in voice chat, because that can also be distracting to other people. If they're too busy typing out jokes in chat to dodge or do mechanics, I'll call them out on that too.

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Are you the type who leave at the sign of "bonus" popping on the screen?

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Again, this is situational. If the message pops up in DF, I just view it as a happy bonus. If it pops up in a farm party and I haven't been told in advance to expect it, then I get a little leery but I'm willing to give people a chance. Some people just say it so you'll let them in and don't really have a clue, though. I'm willing to give it a shot to see whether or not they're lying about their experience.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Is constant wipes enough for you to stop helping PUGs?
Does people who do more joking that fighting make you stop?
Are you the type who leave at the sign of "bonus" popping on the screen?

I'm just trying to gather some information.

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No, if there is a party rage quit, I'm always the last to leave.
No, so long as they actually focus on the fights, if they're joking during a pull or boss, then I get mildly annoyed, but just carry harder.
God no, everyone starts somewhere.
And yeah, only time I refuse to help is if someone refuses to bloody learn, course then again, I have a motto for my outlook on life. "I am not a cynic, I am an optimist who has been disappointed too many times."

@ the people replying to me, I just have issues with people. I don't trust their motives most of the time. I also do not believe that anything comes for free. But oh well.
I was just saying that it would be nice to get something in return, at least a FRIEND or something, but it is not needed nor do I really expect it with the people nowadays.
It's not just in games, but also in real life.

Now that you above me mentioned carrying, I actually like carrying. I mean, I often get grouped in leveling roulettes with people who don't do their part and don't really deserve the clear, but what can you do. Save the day, 2-man the bosses etc. It's not that bad. At least you get to be a hero. I remember when I needed carrying. All the patient people who had me in your group, you da real MVP.

If people show they genuinely want to do it and give their all I'm all for helping! I usually do most content at release, so I seldom need "help" cause we're all learning together~

I tend to help others but don't get help in return. I don't complain because I get satisfaction out of helping others. Does it get frustrating? yes when you really want something the same way they wanted it. I don't lose my faith in humanity though sometimes the effort was more fun than the accomplishment.

I like helping people if they're willing to learn. I firmly believe that people shouldn't sign up for a random roulette unless they're prepared to offer aid to those who require it - especially if they're a budding tank or healer because we need more of those rather than less.

It's mostly the people doing more joking and goofing around than paying attention to the fight that really make me want to stop helping. I'm genuinely offering my help and giving pointers and they'd rather go "lol i'm just trying to have fun, lighten up dude", well that's when i stop helping. If you can't respect that i'm trying to help, you don't deserve it.

Is constant wipes enough for you to stop helping PUGs?
I'm actually the kind of player who likes winning being achievable from lots of wipes instead of straight-forward wins... Nevertheless, other players who usually play with me has said that i'm sorta encouraging new players with my patience, but destroying their mental because i laugh at them in case they die at the same time..

Does people who do more joking that fighting make you stop?
I'd say i'm actually the type who jokes around a lot, like putting player-targeted aoe to another player, or the tank, letting other players dying then suddenly give instant lustrate/benediction, ripping tanks enmity as dps and so on.. but still, i still do it while getting the things done..

Are you the type who leave at the sign of "bonus" popping on the screen?
Oh! Those signs are my favourite!! I'm actually the kind of player who goes in duty finder to search for them, because most of the time, the "virgins" tend to make the fight to a new level of fun (in my view)

For me is helping a big part of me and I enjoy it. A lot of people send me friend requests only for attempting and if I see eg we wipe because of person XX and I get fed up with wipes I send the person(s) I think that deserve the clear on something a /tell to just poke me if they try again.
The counterside is that people start to think you will help on anything. A friend asked me to help out in Ponyfarm... JUST NO! If you want the pony there are enough others up for it on PF but I have also other stuff to do.
That others help you is... well depends on the person I had some helping me in return other not and idm. You help if you feel like it and have time :)
Also some people also help me for "low" use for them like I offered my "help" for a 2 chest weekly A3S and had been last phase once up to hand and they accepted me and took me along even when we wiped a full timer for their weekly with 2 chests.
Social life is about give and take if I stop giving I doubt others would give still :/

If I DF stuff like EX primals and Coils I try to explain if needed I try my language "skills" on french. I DF those expecting wipes in Alex NM though where its is basically a short dungeon (A1, A3, A4) I might get annoyed and leave after 4-5 wipes if noone else RQ b4 me. A2 is just a general pain I wouldnt even do it outside of helping someone out lol

If I'm in a DF group that wipes more than a couple times, I'll probably just leave and try my luck again. That doesn't happen very often at all, though, for the things I'd even use the Duty Finder for. Anything outside of Savage or Thordan Ex is so mechanically simple, I don't have much patience for anyone that doesn't quite get what's going on.
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People usually don't require much of a detailed description, anyway. I'll throw out "Tank here", or "Go here when the thing happens." Thing happens, they go to the place and/or do the thing. Victory!

I don't pretend it makes me a good samaritan/mentor/whale biologist to tell people these things. I just want things to not be awful, and I want my loot at the end.

Seems like a lot of posters here derive something akin to pleasure from "going down with the ship." I, uh, don't think that's a very healthy mentality. It's okay to value your own time. Really. It's okay. Leave the duty. Come back later. The next group will be better.

\

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Originally Posted by Mirili

I don't pretend it makes me a good samaritan/mentor/whale biologist to tell people these things. I just want things to not be awful, and I want my loot at the end.

Seems like a lot of posters here derive something akin to pleasure from "going down with the ship." I, uh, don't think that's a very healthy mentality. It's okay to value your own time. Really. It's okay. Leave the duty. Come back later. The next group will be better.

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It's also okay to want to see people get better.
I hate losing. I don't like wasting time, but I DO like going "wow, look at that, we wiped a few times but in the end we did it!" I think that's a much better feeling then in, out, done.

I especially like helping newbies, since I want them to enjoy the game. After helping, I think "man I hope they enjoy the game as much as I do".

Sometimes I love helping, sometimes I hate it. Depends on my daily mood and what kind of encounters with others I already had that day.
But even when I'm not in the mood to help anyone, I still tend to be on the patient side, I never leave before a wipe just because a new player bonus popped up, I tend to wait at least 3 wipes before leaving.
During that time, I give out explanations, usually in a nice, helpful tone, on bad days in a bit of a snarky way I admit :rolleyes:
After the third wipe, or, if it's a training/clear party and no progress is made over an adequate amount of time (ranging from 10 minutes to a full hour, depending on the difficulty of what people keep doing wrong), I usually just quietly drop party without a word.
Sometimes I apologize and say that I don't see this going anywhere.

But that's for bad days. On good days, I stay and explain things over and over until OTHERS get so annoyed that they kick the one who is holding everyone back or disband the party x)
Ratio of good to bad days is probably around 70:30.

Also, I dislike rewards for helping. I never do stuff for new player bonuses either. I want people to have an experience, one they can look back to later and think "wow, that fight was awesome/fun/exiting/hard but rewarding/etc."
Which is one of the main reasons why I strongly support synced clear groups for Coil, EX primals and the like. After all, I have many fond memories from clearing content only slightly above the minimum ilvl. Buttclenching was included, but it just felt completely different than running through something with 7 lvl 60 dudes who obliterate everything in their path while ignoring any mechanic, and I want new players to get the same level of fun, satisfaction and awe as I got out of those fights :)

If the team is receptive to being helped then I'll help. I enjoy helping others when I can. Though often than not a lot of them don't apreciate it.

Usually though it's not the new inexperienced players that case me to face palm or get aggitated... it's usually the ones that expect perfection out of everyone and with their silly go watch a video before you do something attitude...

And like Atoli I love doing synced clears - they are just more fun. But usually when someone queues up for that you suddenly have 3 people complain that it isn't synced - I tend to go "yay \o/ synced run!" and then am sad since they requeue unsynced... The experience and memories are what makes those fights worth more.

Tend to anly vote kick the abusive ones and not those that actually are trying to work it out and keep trying.

And yes tend to say hi when queue in, goodbye when leaving.

People seem to get so easily stressed out and anxious about screwing up. Listen, players are human and not AI bots tagging along in your single player game.

1. Enter an instance.
2. Say hi. No one responds? Strike 1.
3. Run begins. I give us as a group the benefit of the doubt to do the run without wiping. Doesn\\'t matter to me what methods. There is no "you guys need to do it this one way" bs.
4. If the group wipes after a sincere attempt, strike 2 but I\\'ll stick around to watch the group get better. Chances are we all know the run but have learned them differently. Just takes a little time for the group to mentally sync up. But if there is clearly a reckless or ignorant vibe, then strike 3; I drop the hell out and eat the 30min ban with no looking back.
5. If a third wipe occurs after a sincere retry, I\\'ll chime in with quick tips just for the problem spots. No biggie. No dramas.
6. Group usually clears ok by then. We say good job, and then exit. Cake for everyone.

Taken from the Oxford dictionary, just to get a clearcut definition. Per definition there's actually little to no actual difference between Noob and Newbie. Although I personally feel the former is more negatively charged than the latter.


Definition of noob in English:
noun

informal
A person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.

Origin

Early 21st century: from newbie.

Definition of newbie in English:
noun (plural newbies)

informal
An inexperienced newcomer to a particular activity.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

[...]

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For the sake of everyone, it is better when you guys use the term newb/newbie to the new players, as you pointed out that 'noob' comes with lots of negativity stuck to it. "****ing noobs", as players would say often to lost matches.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Taken from the Oxford dictionary, just to get a clearcut definition. Per definition there's actually little to no actual difference between Noob and Newbie. Although I personally feel the former is more negatively charged than the latter.


Definition of noob in English:
noun

informal
A person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.

Origin

Early 21st century: from newbie.

Definition of newbie in English:
noun (plural newbies)

informal
An inexperienced newcomer to a particular activity.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

No.

Newb/Newbie is the term for people that are new to the game.

Noobs are people that aren't willing to admit or change their bad playstyle.


People keep using that noob term for calling out new people, but that is wrong.

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Thank you both. i had no idea people used Noob in an insulting manner. I only ever see people refer to themselves as noob, "Hey all, I'm a noob." when new to content. It's interesting to know that people use it differently.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

For the sake of everyone, it is better when you guys use the term newb/newbie to the new players, as you pointed out that 'noob' comes with lots of negativity stuck to it. "****ing noobs", as players would say often to lost matches.

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In this context, ****ing is the negative aspect. I mean replace noob with newb, or noob with healer. "****ing healer!" would be equally offensive, but the term healer is not at all offensive.

That said, I never call someone a noob, newb or newbie. I may refer to a FC mate, "ah look at the newbie!" if they are doing something adorable, or I'll refer to myself as a noob (stated above).

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Originally Posted by Arrius

No.

Newb/Newbie is the term for people that are new to the game.

Noobs are people that aren't willing to admit or change their bad playstyle.

People keep using that noob term for calling out new people, but that is wrong.

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Nope:

noob
noun informal

noun: noob; plural noun: noobs
a person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.



You're wrong sir ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

[...]

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We got different sources and experiences with this. I, however, see the term 'noob' as someone who can be a new player, but is not willing to learn or change. And those are probably not the type we will see in the mentor program anyway.

Hence I will call those who do want to get better and admit their error 'newbie/newb', or the 'new player'/'Leaf', rather than plaster them with the negativity that comes with the term 'noob'.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

We got different sources and experiences with this. I, however, see the term 'noob' as someone who can be a new player, but is not willing to learn or change. And those are probably not the type we will see in the mentor program anyway.

Hence I will call those who do want to get better and admit their error 'newbie/newb', or the 'new player'/'Leaf', rather than plaster them with the negativity that comes with the term 'noob'.

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What do you mean call them. As in, when you enter an instance "Hello newbie, I am your mentor."? or like, call them newbie when referring to them while talking to other people? I am not sure people want to be called newbie either, and would probably just prefer you refer to them by name.