Mentor System: Increase Commendations to 500

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

The mentor system seesm to be more about the ins and outs of the actual jobs/roles themselves than about tactics on a specific boss or dungeon. So in this context, knowing the break points for single target vs aoe dps on your job/role while being able to efficiently maximize output would be more valuable than knowing to bait the fire to the side of the ring on the second boss of Keeper or to turn away from petrifaction so you don't turn to stone. Dungeons strats are pretty self evident in most cases and easily explained. The goal of the mentor system is to have experienced players help newer players learn the ins and outs of their job/roles. Knowing a boss strat and knowing which drg OGCDS can be double weaved without clipping are two very separate things.

---

So clearing 1k instances with 300 comms by tanking lets you know how to do DRG rotations... how? If they wanted it to be based on individual classes, then make a system that looks at those classes specifically. Lock it behind a quest that makes you clear a sampling of endgame raids on that class to prove yourself worthy. Create solo instance trials that check players' competence in that job's role, and the types of situations they would need to react to. Think the gatekeeper from TSW.

It'll take me awhile yet to get to the dungeon instance requirement (currently between 100 and 300), but it looks like I should easily hit the commendation requirement by the time I do (currently 132). I was more taken aback by the requirement to have a healer at 60, since I really only play DPS or tank, but I was already starting to work on Summoner and realized that I can just take advantage of the freebie Scholar. ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GleepWurp

but I was already starting to work on Summoner and realized that I can just take advantage of the freebie Scholar. ;-)

---

Shhh! Don't tell anyone. >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torunya

Shhh! Don't tell anyone. >.>

---

"Hi! I'm Mentor Kaurie. I'll tell you how to healz! First, do the thing. You know um, heal the tank. I hope that I was of great service, and see you next time!"

even the 1000 instance requirement is not that much if you just grind lvl 25 story ifrit unsynced...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

even the 1000 instance requirement is not that much if you just grind lvl 25 story ifrit unsynced...

---

still 500 minutes D: Not anyone can bear the pain of those types of grind xD

1 min Westwind runs, zeta farm. Never forget

i find it amazing how people actually complain about something as the mentor system requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

You should stop. You're only embarrassing yourself.

---

He might have a point there. Being hardened to the travails of duty finder is valuable. Impressive is the man who can walk through mud without losing a sandal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

He might have a point there.

---

he might, if there was any other way to get a comm other than through DF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callback

So clearing 1k instances with 300 comms by tanking lets you know how to do DRG rotations... how? If they wanted it to be based on individual classes, then make a system that looks at those classes specifically. Lock it behind a quest that makes you clear a sampling of endgame raids on that class to prove yourthat has worthy. Create solo instance trials that check players' competence in that job's role, and the types of situations they would need to react to. Think the gatekeeper from TSW.

---

Exactly. It seems to be more geared towards teaching dungeon basics and party roles, not individual job/class/skill teaching. Just because someone has whm to 60 doesn't mean they're going to know about sch, but they can teach someone not to cast while tank is pulling, how to prepare for tankbusters, aoe dmg, which is good. But we'll still get blms that can't figure out their rotation or bards that don't keep straight shot up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bardaboo

It seems to be more geared towards teaching dungeon basics and party roles, not individual job/class/skill teaching. Just because someone has whm to 60 doesn't mean they're going to know about sch, but they can teach someone not to cast while tank is pulling, how to prepare for tankbusters, aoe dmg, which is good. But we'll still get blms that can't figure out their rotation or bards that don't keep straight shot up.

---

I'm pretty sure the mentor system isn't meant to teach new players their "optimal rotation". That's what you practice at end-game to reach your optimal damage output, it's like the last page in the book. We're talking about new players here, sticking to dungeon basics 101 and job/role basics will help out way more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callback

So clearing 1k instances with 300 comms by tanking lets you know how to do DRG rotations... how?

---

I'll bet my socks that anyone who's been through 1000 duties knows a thing or two more than those who haven't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bardaboo

Exactly. It seems to be more geared towards teaching dungeon basics and party roles, not individual job/class/skill teaching. Just because someone has whm to 60 doesn't mean they're going to know about sch, but they can teach someone not to cast while tank is pulling, how to prepare for tankbusters, aoe dmg, which is good. But we'll still get blms that can't figure out their rotation or bards that don't keep straight shot up.

---

Exactly, which goes straight back to my original point. Commends are a bad metric and don't measure aptitude in any way. Nor does run count (my "Duty finder" comment was mostly a joke on those people you see in there who make you question whether a toddler managed to get onto someone's account while they were AFK, since it shouldn't be possible for someone who has played as long as them with their class that high to be that bad at it). I support more rigorous testing for mentors, not just a random grind.

I'm sorry if I missed this, but I was wondering if new players "sign up" for the mentor system or if it is just a different name for a secondary Low-level Roueltte with different bonuses? Whenever I get paired with new people who are doing things that aren't exactly ideal, I shy away from correcting them or trying to help them along in case they're the type of person who will get defensive about it and think I am trying to police the way they play.

I think commends are stupid anyways. A dps can afk in a dungeon while spamming 1 skill and get 3+ commends. I can do my rotation perfectly as any class and still get nothing. Most people just commend who has the boobs or coolest looking character. Some people only commend tank if they're playing healer as well. Or worse commend nobody and not even say anything at all the whole run. You should be able to commend everyone that does well and maybe get a reward for taking the time to do so.

I feel like they should make it harder to be a mentor. Remove commends completely. Maybe require a few hundred High level duties completed or clearing of the hardest raid tier available. It would be horrid if bad players taught new players to be just as bad.. Not that everyone that doesnt raid is bad or anything. I know there are good players that dont raid also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I think commends are stupid anyways. A dps can afk in a dungeon while spamming 1 skill and get 3+ commends. I can do my rotation perfectly as any class and still get nothing.

---

Indeed, it would be great if we had official support for some tool which helps us gauge the performance of our teammates. If only

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I think commends are stupid anyways. A dps can afk in a dungeon while spamming 1 skill and get 3+ commends. I can do my rotation perfectly as any class and still get nothing.

---

I would argue that commendations are far from stupid, as they show how well you get along with others. If you go through a duty playing your job flawlessly, but remaining completely silent, chances are the other players probably won't notice you. But if you try communicating (ie. Saying hello/goodbye, casual banter, explanations) on top of playing your job well, your chances of recieving commendations are considerably higher. My point is that you'd be surprised what acting like a decent human being can do for you in a social setting. I get commendations very often regardless of what job I play, and I like to think it's because I'm doing my best at being a teamplayer.

I'm in favor of some kind of harder test to overcome in order to achieve mentor status on top of all this though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torunya

snip

---

See, the thing is, I actually do try to be friendly and sometimes it works. The problem is that the people can choose to ignore the commends all together and just leave without taking 2 seconds to commend you or your party members even if you did good. There is also nothing forcing the people to commend the guy who deserves it. Just the other day i joined an in progress for my wife who needed a tank and guess who she commended reguardless of how well he played just because he is her husband. >.>

TL;DR commends are great if everyone in game uses them the way they were ment to be used and does not ignore them due to lack of f@#ks givin'. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torunya

I would argue that commendations are far from stupid, as they show how well you get along with others. If you go through a duty playing your job flawlessly, but remaining completely silent, chances are the other players probably won't notice you. But if you try communicating (ie. Saying hello/goodbye, casual banter, explanations) on top of playing your job well, your chances of recieving commendations are considerably higher. My point is that you'd be surprised what acting like a decent human being can do for you in a social setting. I get commendations very often regardless of what job I play, and I like to think it's because I'm doing my best at being a teamplayer..

---

Your market may vary.

My experiences are opposite. Recently, I usually receive 1+ commendations in every run that I do. However, I am much less likely to receive a commendation when I spend time explaining fights to new players. "Hey, I'm new" "Hey, welcome! I'll explain the boss fights".. we approach boss 1 "For this boss..." etc etc.. end of dungeon 0 commendations. Queue next dungeon, say "Hi"... 20 minutes later "Thanks" You receive 2 commendations!

To clarify, this isn't just 1 experience, but my experience over thousands (hundreds? I have no idea how many dungeons I've completed lol) of dungeon runs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xJimmehx

snap

---

There will always be cases like that, and I admit I am guilty of the same. But I still think it's better to have a commendation system over nothing. Could it be improved? Of course it could. In your case though I'd think you would get the commendation regardless of your wife being a member of the party. Any tank that hops into in-progress duties is worth a commendation in my book any day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Your market may vary.

---

No one run is hardly ever the same, this is a given. I both understand and agree with what you're saying. I would assume that some newer players would forget that you even can award commendations. Shit does indeed happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

still 500 minutes D: Not anyone can bear the pain of those types of grind xD

1 min Westwind runs, zeta farm. Never forget

---

see i havent even done any of that lol

all my runs are of, like, amdapor keep and lowbie dungeons >.<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delorean

see i havent even done any of that lol

all my runs are of, like, amdapor keep and lowbie dungeons >.<

---

the early zetas were gotten by farming Cape Westwind non-stop for some 10ish hours or so :p

Way too insane for me, I opted for the 2 weeks "what's the primal in bonus" way of farming it. Still some 15 hours farming in total, but over 2 weeks rather than straight

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

As I read it, "commendations are worthless and mean nothing, please make the requirement higher for commendations." That makes little sense to me.

---

They're not worthless at all. Any player who takes the time to explain to the party how a dungeon work is far more likely to get commendations than anyone else. Sure there might be times where the team is lazy and doesn't bother (there really should be an automatic pop-up for these things), but overall if I explain something to a party, I usually get at least half the commendations from the group.

The fact of the matter is that DPS queues are terrible because we have way, way too many DPS. And the ones who do get the commendations are tanks or healers, because they have instant queues and a good one is hard to come by. If the developers succeed at this endeavor, we just might start seeing more people confident in tanking and healing. And if that happens, all the queues will finally balance out.

Can we please stop pretending DPS don't get commendations? I get commendations regardless if i play tank/healer/dps. Sure, Tank/Healer are more likely maybe, but i never struggle to get commendations as a DPS. Hell back when i was leveling my BRD in 2.2? i was getting atleast 1-2 commendations every dungeon i did on it. And even when i leveled my MNK the last month to 15->60 i got about 1-2 commendation every other dungeon, and every now and then even 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callback

Exactly, which goes straight back to my original point. Commends are a bad metric and don't measure aptitude in any way. Nor does run count (my "Duty finder" comment was mostly a joke on those people you see in there who make you question whether a toddler managed to get onto someone's account while they were AFK, since it shouldn't be possible for someone who has played as long as them with their class that high to be that bad at it). I support more rigorous testing for mentors, not just a random grind.

---

But my point is, this system isn't MEANT to teach job specifics it's meant to teach dungeon and class basics like healing and tanking in general, which is very easy to grasp. So increasing the requirements is pointless. If they ever introduce job mentoring then yes it makes sense to have higher requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

They're not worthless at all. Any player who takes the time to explain to the party how a dungeon work is far more likely to get commendations than anyone else. Sure there might be times where the team is lazy and doesn't bother (there really should be an automatic pop-up for these things), but overall if I explain something to a party, I usually get at least half the commendations from the group.

The fact of the matter is that DPS queues are terrible because we have way, way too many DPS. And the ones who do get the commendations are tanks or healers, because they have instant queues and a good one is hard to come by. If the developers succeed at this endeavor, we just might start seeing more people confident in tanking and healing. And if that happens, all the queues will finally balance out.

---

First off, I did not say they are worthless, I said the OP said they are worthless and followed it up by saying they should increase the number required. The conclusion doesn't follow the reasoning.

Second, you are not more likely to get a commendation if you explain the dungeon, as i have previously mentioned in this thread. I am about 5x more likely to get a commendation if I don't explain things, than if I am. I am not sure why, but this is merely from my experience.

Third, I often receive commendations on my DPS.

Finally, I am not sure why you think the mentor system may result in more healers and tanks in duty finder, but I doubt that will be the result of this.

Personally, I think the result of all of this will be:
1. People signing up to be mentors, only to be frustrated at the lack of gratitude received
2. People who are helped by mentors will get angry that they are being told what to do, and they just want to play the way they want
3. Neither of the above happen, but only a very small select few opt to have a mentor help them
3b. The few that opt to have a mentor would have learned to play anyway through FC mates, asking questions and searching online
4. There will be no noticeable difference in the quality or skill level of the average player
5. The system will be largely forgotten in a couple of months

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bardaboo

But my point is, this system isn't MEANT to teach job specifics it's meant to teach dungeon and class basics like healing and tanking in general, which is very easy to grasp. So increasing the requirements is pointless. If they ever introduce job mentoring then yes it makes sense to have higher requirements.

---

um...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

The mentor system seesm to be more about the ins and outs of the actual jobs/roles themselves than about tactics on a specific boss or dungeon. So in this context, knowing the break points for single target vs aoe dps on your job/role while being able to efficiently maximize output would be more valuable than knowing to bait the fire to the side of the ring on the second boss of Keeper or to turn away from petrifaction so you don't turn to stone. Dungeons strats are pretty self evident in most cases and easily explained. The goal of the mentor system is to have experienced players help newer players learn the ins and outs of their job/roles. Knowing a boss strat and knowing which drg OGCDS can be double weaved without clipping are two very separate things.

---

So yeah. Nobody even knows what the point of this thing is. All we know is that commends are a useless metric

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

First off, I did not say they are worthless, I said the OP said they are worthless and followed it up by saying they should increase the number required. The conclusion doesn't follow the reasoning.

---

Actually, I am the OP, and if you re-read that, I didn't say that at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Finally, I am not sure why you think the mentor system may result in more healers and tanks in duty finder, but I doubt that will be the result of this.

---

Because players don't realize how good they are at something until they try it. Players frequently have a preconceived notion of how tanks function in SWTOR, or WoW, or countless other games using the party trinity.

I played melee DPS in WoW, I was terrible at it. I vowed not to try that in this game. I joined a raid group, our DPS was bad but my heals were good. So we gave a swap a shot and my raid leader asked me to be a MNK. I begrudgingly agreed, and within one week of playing it to L50 I was outperforming our entire DPS team.

There's unlocked potential in all of these jobs, and not everyone realizes what they're really good at until they give it a shot and see for themselves. The mentor system is heavily encouraging trying other jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Second, you are not more likely to get a commendation if you explain the dungeon, as i have previously mentioned in this thread. I am about 5x more likely to get a commendation if I don't explain things, than if I am. I am not sure why, but this is merely from my experience.

---

I read your example and I can guarantee that all the comms went to the tank who was new, rather than you who helped them.

I think the real question we should be asking is not on the commendations, or of the any other requirements, but rather on the quality of the mentor itself. The requirements are extremely easy to obtain just by simply playing the game. It doesn't show effort, motivation, personality, teaching style, fashion sense, what they eat, their political and religious views, etc.

Anyone can teach, but that doesn't mean you're a good teacher. But, I hear good things about how Valve does it with Team Fortress 2 and coaching, so I would be looking forward to it (and of course, wanting to be a mentor myself).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Actually, I am the OP, and if you re-read that, I didn't say that at all.

---

I am sorry then, perhaps I got mixed up in some responses or misunderstood your post. I went back and re-read it, and I can see what you are saying now. In that a tank will get the minimum requirement while they are leveling, so you think an increase would be better so that some commends are earned through end-game play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Because players don't realize how good they are at something until they try it. Players frequently have a preconceived notion of how tanks function in SWTOR, or WoW, or countless other games using the party trinity.

I played melee DPS in WoW, I was terrible at it. I vowed not to try that in this game. I joined a raid group, our DPS was bad but my heals were good. So we gave a swap a shot and my raid leader asked me to be a MNK. I begrudgingly agreed, and within one week of playing it to L50 I was outperforming our entire DPS team.

There's unlocked potential in all of these jobs, and not everyone realizes what they're really good at until they give it a shot and see for themselves. The mentor system is heavily encouraging trying other jobs.

---

I fully agree that the barrier to entry is just trying and once you try you are more likely to stay with it. However, I still don't get why you think people are more likely to try out tanking and healing with the mentor system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I read your example and I can guarantee that all the comms went to the tank who was new, rather than you who helped them.

---

Indeed, this is my thoughts on it as well. It fully supports what I am saying, in that helping new people through dungeons usually results in less commendations.

More on topic, I was wondering what people would have thought of making the requirement more ratio based. # of commendations / # dungeons run. I am around 1450/1800 personally.

I don't see how the number of comms a person has indicates how skillful they are. Especially with people throwing out comms just because there's an achievement for getting and a weekly challenge for giving comms. If anything, it just shows how much they run df without a full pre-made group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

More on topic, I was wondering what people would have thought of making the requirement more ratio based. # of commendations / # dungeons run. I am around 1450/1800 personally.

---

1 - Several instances were run before commendation existed.
2 - Nobody gets a commendation in fully premade groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Indeed, this is my thoughts on it as well. It fully supports what I am saying, in that helping new people through dungeons usually results in less commendations.

---

This isn't a rule though, you are too small a sample to say for sure. I usually get a lot of commendations when I help people (albeit as tank or healer), so that completely skews your theory. The problem is that commendations aren't an indicator of how helpful you were in an instance, its an indicator that someone in a dungeon thought you deserved a commendation, and to me, that's working as intended.

On a separate note, I agree with the OP that it should be 500 comms, but I think the reason that it isn't is because people who joined in HW wouldn't have gotten that many yet, meaning the content would be exclusive to ARR players for a while. I don't think that is a good excuse, but it's what they have chosen. What I will be more interested to see is how harsh they are towards players who aren't good or helpful mentors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This isn't a rule though, you are too small a sample to say for sure. I usually get a lot of commendations when I help people (albeit as tank or healer), so that completely skews your theory. The problem is that commendations aren't an indicator of how helpful you were in an instance, its an indicator that someone in a dungeon thought you deserved a commendation, and to me, that's working as intended.

On a separate note, I agree with the OP that it should be 500 comms, but I think the reason that it isn't is because people who joined in HW wouldn't have gotten that many yet, meaning the content would be exclusive to ARR players for a while. I don't think that is a good excuse, but it's what they have chosen. What I will be more interested to see is how harsh they are towards players who aren't good or helpful mentors.

---

Something usually happening from my experience isn't a rule. That is correct, I never said it was. If you go back to my original post, I say "your market may vary" as in, everyone has different experiences. I simply noted that helping people doesn't necessarily get you more commendations. It may or may not happen. You then provided reasoning of why my experiences happened. I am not really sure why you are agreeing with me but making it sound like an argument.

On your separate note, personally I don't think commendations should be part of it. There are plenty of bad players who have lots of commendations, and plenty of newer players who are skillful that don't. I think the requirements for this system are silly. That said, I think the entire mentor system is pretty silly and won't be helpful, so I am not super concerned about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

On your separate note, personally I don't think commendations should be part of it. There are plenty of bad players who have lots of commendations

---

I think it should be there, not because it gauges whether a player is a good or bad, but I think it does gauge how much experience the player has with the game. It eliminates the trolls and very bad players, the ones who you deliberatly don't comm, and leaves us with the good players, and the alright players.

It also shows that the player has experience with all kinds of different players, and has a well rounded knowledge of good and bad parties in DF, rather than someone who only uses pre-made parties, and has made it through this, picking up a few comms on the way. I don't think that the mentor system is looking for exceptional players, its looking for average players who know how to play the game to teach those that don't.

Personally I think that the system should work on a tiered system, in that you become a trainee mentor and must collect mentor commendations before you can become a full mentor and start earning rewards.

Simple answer to the commendation requirement would be to change it.

People just commend whoever mostly, for the glamour, breasts or just clickclickclick for the challenge log.

I've personally always said that you should only commend if someone actually impresses you. Otherwise all you're doing is rewarding mediocrity. "Oh, I got a Commendation. I guess I did a good job with all those Blizzard 3 spells." when you just click the only one who is left in the instance watching the CS.

(Not everyone is gonna be that level of bad.)

In my opinion, if they insist on a Commendation system, make it a longer process to award one.

"Who would you like to commend?"
-Tank
-Healer
-Other DPS

"Why would you like to commend them?"
-A reason. Minimum 30 characters.

"How would you rate this players' performance out of ten?"
-Radio button, pick a rating.

"Thank you."

--

This isn't perfect, and could certainly be refined, but would definitely cut down on the clicklcickclick commend whoever and make the Commendation system that little bit more refined.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheFolant

In my opinion, if they insist on a Commendation system, make it a longer process to award one.

"Who would you like to commend?"
-Tank
-Healer
-Other DPS

"Why would you like to commend them?"
-A reason. Minimum 30 characters.

"How would you rate this players' performance out of ten?"
-Radio button, pick a rating.

"Thank you."

---

i would never ever commend any person with such a system. i am here to play a game, but this sounds like work. and in the end i am working for someones other mount? i don't think so

It's hard enough to give a comm when ppl vanish from the dungeon 1 second after completion, let alone having time to write an essay on it LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheFolant

Simple answer to the commendation requirement would be to change it.

People just commend whoever mostly, for the glamour, breasts or just clickclickclick for the challenge log.

I've personally always said that you should only commend if someone actually impresses you. Otherwise all you're doing is rewarding mediocrity. "Oh, I got a Commendation. I guess I did a good job with all those Blizzard 3 spells." when you just click the only one who is left in the instance watching the CS.

(Not everyone is gonna be that level of bad.)

In my opinion, if they insist on a Commendation system, make it a longer process to award one.

"Who would you like to commend?"
-Tank
-Healer
-Other DPS

"Why would you like to commend them?"
-A reason. Minimum 30 characters.

"How would you rate this players' performance out of ten?"
-Radio button, pick a rating.

"Thank you."

--

This isn't perfect, and could certainly be refined, but would definitely cut down on the clicklcickclick commend whoever and make the Commendation system that little bit more refined.

---

I agree that this seems a bit long winded, however the idea has merits.

First of all... why oh why can't I comm someone after they have left... is it that hard to link that data after they've dropped (legitimate question, I'm not an IT proffessional).

Second of all, instead of typing a reason, why not just have a list of 5-10 reasons why your awarding. Kindness, explanations, solid playstyle, etc...