"Dark Knight: Tanking On The Edge"

Makes sense. I can definitely see a few situations where dropping it for BW would be especially helpful (4+ mob pulls where DA-AD becomes more viable than DA-SE, any time you use LD, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I will give you credit for being the first guide I've seen to suggest dropping Grit for MP management. But I'm not going to argue this very much, because it will very quickly devolve into the Str/Vit debate, which is one that I am quite frankly very tired of. I just wanted to comment that your note about it not having any mechanical impact is technically incorrect, because SE won't restore HP without it.

Also, while it is not improper to play with Grit "as a cooldown" (provided you can hold hate and juggle your cooldowns effectively enough to make up for the lost mitigation), I will also posit that it is neither incorrect to play with Grit "as a stance." It may complicate mana management, but the extra mitigation provided in raw reduction and self-heals is roughly equal to what you get from turning it off to DPS faster.

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I did not neglect to mention that SE's healing component is tied to Grit anywhere in the guide, to my knowledge. This is a very very small mechanic however and one that requires you to be taking very little spike damage of any kind for healers to take notice, as (with Grit on and full STR gear) you're only recovering about 1.8-1.9K every 3 GCDs, and that's if you're spamming it and neglecting SC and DE. Its not like WAR losing Inner Beast, for instance. DRK's mechanics are tied to being hit, not to having tank stance on. I also didn't discuss stat weights for any reason or mention any kind of STR/VIT debate, nor did I say that having Grit on is bad play. It depends on the situation. In a fight like Thordan for instance, TBs are frequent enough that I'm only able to spend about 40-50% of the fight out of Grit. In A3S you can spend 90% of the fight out of Grit. In A1S you don't need it at all (unless you're solo-tanking Faust). It really depends on the encounter.

Most newer tanks will hang on to their tank stance for dear life, I wanted to advertise using it minimally in this guide as it is generally more efficient once you and your group are comfortable with it. The general message I want to convey is that you should do what you and your group are comfortable with, but you can maximize efficiency in many ways by finding opportunities to turn it off.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Great write up, I will be referring future DRK's here. One thing I would like to state is that the DRK MT/ WAR OT combo does not awkwardly include the Enmity combo. Any Warrior worth his Loincloth will be using the SE combo, despite the loss of 20 potency, SE grants more DPS overtime them alternating SE/BB. Even when MT, War's will only BB when the aggro gets low or as the second combo of their opener. I raid with DRK MT and we never have this issue.

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I believe that is a DPS loss iirc? If Maim and SE are maintained BB combo is a DPS gain, so most WARs will alternate them unless SP is needed for an upcoming TB/raid-wide hit, as I understand it. If you spam SE you're losing 20 potency to refresh Maim/SE well before they're in danger of falling, are you not?

If you are concerned with dropping Grit, start off by doing it just on the bosses of the EX roulette dungeons. Just a little at first, ease into it. As you get comfortable with it, push your threshold, go tank normal Alex and drop grit after grabbing a reasonable emnity lead, or really push it and drop grit after 1 emnity combo. You may be surprised at how smoothly the class plays without Grit.

OR

You can do what I did, and get involved in a bet with your co-tank just before raid night and go full monty and hold on for dear life. Then 3 weeks later, when your healer says "Hey you died there, why weren't you in tank stance" You can respond, "Well, I haven't been in tank stance for a month now, why did you derp this time?"

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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I'll check for you when I get home, but I've been doing my opener for quite a while and my potion buff always falls off 1 second after I do my second soul eater.


Also I don't know about you but whenever I run with folks litany + TA are up fairly early. Litany is usually up right before I scourge when I play with Dragoons. And going by the Dragoon rotation thread it's basically their first OGCD they use. Trick Attack will vary. There are Ninjas who Suiton on the pull and TA right away, there are some who TA later. I'm not going to try to delay my higher damaging moves to line up perfectly with Trick Attack. At most all my moves will be buffed by TA, At the least my Soul Eaters and C&S will be.

If Scourge does or doesn't get buffed by Slashing down it's not the end of the world. Scourge potency comes from the DoT, the on hit damage is nice, but nothing compared to having the DoT tick earlier while being buffed by a potion. The Soul Eaters will be buffed which I think should make up for losing a tiny bit of potency on the hit of scourge, hard, syphon, And they're happening earlier, and not being delayed with a pointless Delirium.

Hypercharge by any machinist that knows what they're doing will be up pre-pull, so that's nothing to worry about. Balance is going to be up on pull and drawn pre pull. Once again nothing to worry about, in fact you're losing time on Hypercharge buff + Balance buff + litany, if the players of those classes are following the best usage of those abilities if you delay your highest damage by starting with Delirium.

As for Plunge, I'm sure our mileage may vary as I don't doubt we have differing connection speeds. My Plunges are always like this Unmend(plunge) , I unmend , boss starts moving towards me, I plunge right away, and I'm standing with my party on the edge of the bosses hitbox and have to go through it anyway. I'd rather just Potion while running through it and start with scourge than deal with plunges animation delay right there.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I believe that is a DPS loss iirc? If Maim and SE are maintained BB combo is a DPS gain, so most WARs will alternate them unless SP is needed for an upcoming TB/raid-wide hit, as I understand it. If you spam SE you're losing 20 potency to refresh Maim/SE well before they're in danger of falling, are you not?

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Yes, when fighting a standstill enemy, like a dummy, it is a dps loss of 20 potency. Most true fights where dps numbers matter, Im not talking roulette duties for sure, where mechanics can and will interrupt combos, the loss of Se and/or maim is more detrimental to your dps than that extra 20 potency. Also constantly being inside an SE combo allows you the opportunity to drop an quick SP when needed. I can't speak for the whole community, but I know my playstyle and watching many Warrior POV vids showcase that the majority of end game Warriors will drop the BB combo only to maintain aggro. Even the 20 drop in potency is divided by a 10 point drop on Maim and a 10 point drop on SE compared to SS and BB, so with the proper amount of Crit rating, you see the same numbers anyways.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

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I will edit in as an alternate OT opener for a high-SkS build (2.38 GCD assumed).

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I will edit in as an alternate OT opener for a high-SkS build (2.38 GCD assumed).

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I just got home i'll check my skill speed and GCD for you with and without blood weapon. I have no idea how high my speed is right now but I don't think its that high

edit: 605 Speed , 2.4 GCD, 2.16GCD with blood weapon. A bit higher than I thought but I'm not geared for speed. Just using pure eso + thordan weapon

I think it's worth noting that if you TP floor, you can use Mana to spam unmend and use unleash if it procs to at least do some DPS while TP floored so you can regenerate your TP back, and that during that time you should use mostly unmend if Blood price is on (due to gaining mana returns) or more physical skills while Blood Weapon is on ( since bw is positive on TP, you can safely do most skills while TP flooring.)

I've been getting more and more comfortable with DRK. Unlike my PLD, I even put up learning parties just so I can get a feel for it on a greater level. The only thing I still am NOT comfortable with is Grit.

While I'm no stranger to dropping it, I see a LOT of DRKs keep it off for a long time. I'm hesitant to leave it off for more than 2 combos with a pack of 4+ mobs. On a boss, it's easy~peezy until I need healing and/or when our healer dies (I solo'd the Wall in Library as DRK starting at about 28%, using Potions to assist with MP due to me getting under a panic state while using Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain as well as Dark Arts + Souleater with Grit up for the self heals).

As PLD, I kinda did my own thing and didn't care (pure VIT, for example) so long as I kept the mob(s) on me with 100% mitigation. As DRK, I'm actually "learning" it and trying different ways to play it.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I just got home i'll check my skill speed and GCD for you with and without blood weapon. I have no idea how high my speed is right now but I don't think its that high

edit: 605 Speed , 2.4 GCD, 2.16GCD with blood weapon. A bit higher than I thought but I'm not geared for speed. Just using pure eso + thordan weapon

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Noob question: How do I check my GCD speed?

Just some stuff that has been lingering in the back of my mind for a while. Aside from reducing magical damage, are there any other traits that get affected by a lowered Int effect from Delirium. Also what stats or abilities can affect Abyssal Drain. Would Convalescence add 20% to the Hp recovery or is it capped by the damage it does. If Abyssal Drain, Dark Passenger, Unleash and Unmend are all magical. Are they still affected by +Str in the same manner as physical damage. Paladin and war don't need Int for any Mp ability (flash) and it seems odd if Darks main agro pull and aoe potencies to be tied to a stat that's not needed for the majority of combat damage and enmity . Skill and Spell speed affects their Dot in a way similar to Determination. Is Salted Earth's dot affected by Skill Speed or Spell Speed? Or is that one of those things whose effect is so unnoticeable that most would say it doesn't matter?

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

The only thing I still am NOT comfortable with is Grit.

While I'm no stranger to dropping it, I see a LOT of DRKs keep it off for a long time. I'm hesitant to leave it off for more than 2 combos with a pack of 4+ mobs.

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Yeah I'm like that also, but that might be since I'm not full +Str (+14 Vit). I only turn it off near the end when its just 1 or the boss is 20% or in kill the add mode and I tend use more enmity combos and boosted C&S than Delirium when Blood Weapon is up

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

Just some stuff that has been lingering in the back of my mind for a while. Aside from reducing magical damage, are there any other traits that get affected by a lowered Int effect from Delirium. Also what stats or abilities can affect Abyssal Drain. Would Convalescence add 20% to the Hp recovery or is it capped by the damage it does. If Abyssal Drain, Dark Passenger, Unleash and Unmend are all magical. Are they still affected by +Str in the same manner as physical damage. Paladin and war don't need Int for any Mp ability (flash) and it seems odd if Darks main agro pull and aoe potencies to be tied to a stat that's not needed for the majority of combat damage and enmity . Skill and Spell speed affects their Dot in a way similar to Determination. Is Salted Earth's dot affected by Skill Speed or Spell Speed? Or is that one of those things whose effect is so unnoticeable that most would say it doesn't matter?

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Delirium reduces all of the boss's outgoing magic damage. All of our spells are scaled off strength but deal magical damage. This means their damage is boosted by things like Foe's Requiem and Bishop Hypercharge. This is all stuff that I mentioned in the guide btw ;)

Basically everything we do (for now anyway, 3.2 may change this) scales from Strength. But our ranged/aoe abilities DEAL magic damage, USING our STR, and thus are checked against the targets magic defense. Convalescence is only healing received, not self-heals. I'm not 100% sure about SkS and Salted Earth, I know Scourge benefits, but placed AoE DoTs tick on a different timer than DoTs applied to a target (put down SaE and SC at the same time and you'll see that they tick separately, this isn't the case with single-target DoTs stacked together like Bio/Miasma/Bio II with SMN, which when applied all tick as one big collective tick.

In no way does DRK utilize its own INT, Spell Speed, or Piety. Everything is STR/VIT/CRIT/SkS/DET/Parry.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

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Dropping Grit imo, depends on comfort levels and experience. If you know a fight really well you'll know how long until you need it for a tank buster, if you're running in DF it's dependent on your healer and gear though for speed runs. Granted with 4-5 mobs and having BP up, spamming Abyssal with DA and using Dark Dance + Awareness/Skin/Wall/Foresight you don't really need grit unless something goes wrong.

As for checking your GCD, Go to the skills in action /traits and for DRK under job, look at a move on the GCD and where it says Cooldown it will show what your GCD currently is including modifiers like Greased Lightning(*if you're a monk) or blood weapon. example for me if I look at it unbuffed it'll say 2.4 if I use blood weapon then look at it during the buff it'll say 2.16

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I've been getting more and more comfortable with DRK. Unlike my PLD, I even put up learning parties just so I can get a feel for it on a greater level. The only thing I still am NOT comfortable with is Grit.

While I'm no stranger to dropping it, I see a LOT of DRKs keep it off for a long time. I'm hesitant to leave it off for more than 2 combos with a pack of 4+ mobs. On a boss, it's easy~peezy until I need healing and/or when ourhealer dies (I solo'd the Wall in Library as DRK starting at about 28%, using Potions to assist with MP due to me getting under a panic state while using Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain as well as Dark Arts + Souleater with Grit up for the self heals).

As PLD, I kinda did my own thing and didn't care (pure VIT, for example) so long as I kept the mob(s) on me with 100% mitigation. As DRK, I'm actually "learning" it and trying different ways to play it.

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Here's what I would suggest for people like yourself:

If you don't feel comfortable to keep Grit off long enough to use Blood Weapon twice (55 seconds) you're better off just keeping it on. Turning it off and then back on so soon is a huge MP and DPS loss.

A 55 second window (the time it takes to apply two usages of of BW and have them run for their full duration) is more than enough time to rotate cooldowns to keep yourself bulky during Grit downtime, even for the most conservative of players, if you're not sure of yourself.

As mentioned in the guide, I never recommend turning Grit off for trash in 4-man content. Just keep it on, pull more, and invest your DPS into AoE rather than Grit downtime/BW uptime. If you are the OT in 8-man content that is particularly trash-heavy, like A2N, rotate AoE bursts with BW and BP (depending on how much your MT is tanking/if you are tanking anything at all). Turning it off against 4+ mobs is inefficient as you're taking disproportionately increased damage with respect to the single-target DPS increase, whereas you could probably match yourself out of Grit in total AoE DPS by just keeping Grit on and AoEing larger packs. DRK's entire toolkit really lends itself to big pulls in 4-man content so I strongly recommend seizing the opportunity to push yourself to pull more to tap into the jobs potential (Getting thousands of MP back every couple of seconds, spamming AoE, being healed for it, and then when BP falls, blinding a pack of 10 mobs with a 250 potency AoE and then boosting your evasion with DADD. Its pretty godmode once you get a feel for the flow of it).

Anyway, turning Grit off is primarily for boss fights. For trash/multi-target stuff, I recommend just trying to pull more to get the most out of Grit's mitigation and BP's MP and use that to go crazy on AoE.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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I agree with most of what you said except the only thing is while yes you can do more AoE DPS with larger packs grit on compared to single target with grit off using blood weapon, when you're fighting 4+ you should be using AoE anyway which with grit off is still going to be higher. You shouldn't be matching Single target DPS to AoE DPS in an AoE DPS situation.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I agree with most of what you said except the only thing is while yes you can do more AoE DPS with larger packs grit on compared to single target with grit off using blood weapon, when you're fighting 4+ you should be using AoE anyway which with grit off is still going to be higher. You shouldn't be matching Single target DPS to AoE DPS in an AoE DPS situation.

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Their original post implied they were turning Grit off to use Blood Weapon on 4+ mobs, so I directed them to an appropriate scenario to keep Grit on (since they are less comfortable with having it off) and still do more damage/speed up the run for the party. When you drop Grit, most of the time, you're doing it for BW primarily, you're not doing it to make your AoEs stronger unless in some rare scenarios (OT in solo tank A2 for instance). BW doesn't synergize with your AoE. If you're dropping Grit for only a short time on 4 mobs its likely you're doing it for BW and not for AoE unless you wants to be manafloored very quickly.

The point is, if you're disabling Grit against 4ish mobs, to AoE/self heal, you're not able to do it as constantly, liberally, our repeatedly as if you were tanking more and getting hit more, which, as it happens, is easier with Grit on.

Of course anything you do in Grit will do less damage than its out-of-Grit counterpart. But DRK as a tank craves tanking huge packs, the bigger the pull/more mobs tanked that's more AoE DPS, more MP, and more self-healing. It also means Grit is less of an option and more of a requirement due to the sheer quantity of incoming damage. There are pulls I do in the Arboretum and PSHM that I would never in a million years do with Grit off, even at the end of the pull, popping Shadow Wall my HP plummets until I DA that first AD (I'm actually solo-healing myself for the first couple GCDs).

I'll advocate having Grit off all day for bosses. For speed-run dungeon pulls (which DRK is built for) not so much. My playstyle is to keep Grit on during dungeon trash sections and just pull as much as my body/the healer can take, AoE/self-heal/BP like crazy, DADP the whole lot of them and DADD to go full dodgelord and then single target until BP comes off cooldown, then rinse-repeat.

I'm sure you can keep Grit off if you pull less but this also makes your AoEing less effective overall (less targets) and this lessens potential self-healing and potential BP returns because you just can't pull as much with Grit off as with Grit on. Its just not in the numbers. And from what I've come to understand about the DRK job this is a way to maximize dungeon runs and AoE scenarios and is an area where Grit actually shines. The job craves big pulls, that's just the way it feels, and the more you pull the more bang you feel like you're getting for the job's buck if you will. More mobs just fuels the fire and because DRK's AoEs utilize an endlessly renewable resource (read: not TP) it can AoE longer with MP to spare and then do it again 25 seconds later without skipping a beat.

Its just a quality of life utility that DRK brings to 4-man content or trash-heavy 8-man content, and it just so happens to exponentially synergize with staying in Grit.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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Ah I see what you're saying.My personal preference for using grit with 4+ mobs is a little different but mileage may vary depending on gear vs content, but if I know I'm comfy with pulling a ton of mobs I'll keep grit up for a couple of AD's then I'll turn it off and try to focus on AoE DPS cycling my CD's. Though it really depends on the healer and party composition. I mark something with sole survivor when HP gets low, if we get to the point of 2-3 mobs left I'll pop blood weapon to regen some extra MP for the next pull, unless it's a boss then I probably have enough MP for it. I don't need to pull less mobs to have grit off though, I pull the same amount either way, as much as possible.

I do have a question though, this is something I'm not really sure about but it involves speed runs and I wonder what your thoughts are. I found that when grabbing mobs for quite a while it seems more beneficial to be grit on/ darkside off for my mana management , then when I stop I turn darkside on. Do you feel like it's better to be darkside off while gathering mobs or on? I just can't stand the MP drain while i'm still pulling things and not being able to regen it or do any real damage yet personally.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I do have a question though, this is something I'm not really sure about but it involves speed runs and I wonder what your thoughts are. I found that when grabbing mobs for quite a while it seems more beneficial to be grit on/ darkside off for my mana management , then when I stop I turn darkside on. Do you feel like it's better to be darkside off while gathering mobs or on? I just can't stand the MP drain while i'm still pulling things and not being able to regen it or do any real damage yet personally.

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Nah, I never turn Darkside off until the last mob dies. I let it regen on the way to the next pack, reactivate it, then pull. I minimize my mana consumption while pulling as much as possible.

There's a lot of techniques I've found invaluable for this:

1. Unleash procs. If you get one, use it.
2. For individual mobs I won't always use Unmend, sometimes I'll Plunge to them, other times I'll put Scourge on them and Low Blow them as I run by. With Grit these are enough to hold hate. The DoT ticks will keep them on me and the stun will keep them from hitting me for a second so the healer stress isn't so bad. Tagging things with Scourge+LB is actually a favorite MP-saving technique of mine, I utilize it often.
3. If the first mob is part of a pack I won't bother with Unmend, I'll just run through them and Unleash.
4. If you only hit one mob out of a large pack or series of packs, the remaining mobs tied to it of course are pulled and pile up around your location. If you run through them, they stop and turn around and start to chase you. If there's several packs in succession, or more than I could hit with a single Unleash, I'll just hit the first one with Scourge or Plunge or something, and then let the remaining 5-6 mobs pile up as I run by, and then I'll toss an Abyssal Drain behind me. This way I can tag and get aggro on a huge pile-up of trash with a single spell. Can sometimes scare the rest of the party but generally it works.
5. Speaking of generally, Abyssal Drain is an amazing tool, because its the only tank AoE that can reach behind you. This is the only reason #4 is even possible. If WAR or PLD misses something they have to run back to get it off whomever, or worse if they missed more than one. With DRK, sometimes you can just yoloswagfacepull half a dozen mobs and run past them, and as they pile up behind you tag them all at once. This of course implies there's nothing dumb going on like a regen ticking on you or the like. But even so, once you get the timing down its easy to get a bunch of mobs piled up as you run past them, and then AD them while they are clumped up turning around to chase you.

Sometimes once I reach my destination I'm "low" on MP (2-3K) but this is frankly enough. I generally don't start REALLY AoEing hard until I see that first wall of AAs hit me, then I unleash the Sea Urchins. At this point, BP is up, SK or SW is up, Salted Earth is down in front of me, and I'm ready to get busy. With big enough pulls it can be REALLY hard to make your MP dip below 5K, even with repeated AD spam, DAing every other one. My MP rockets up so fast my head spins, and then its just DA every other AD and its not too hard for the healer to keep up, and generally I've got enough MP left after BP falls to DADD and DADP (sometimes I need a DE combo in there, and of course I weave in un-DAed C&S once my MP actually starts taking a legitimate dip during AoEing). I get my MP back up to where I'm comfortable, put Scourge on things until BP comes off cooldown, then pop another defensive CD and rinse/repeat.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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The AD stuff might help. I do it sometimes but maybe not often enough. I think I pull more with unmend/unleash than I try to run through and AD them afterwards. That might help. It's probably because I went from PLD > DRK so I'm used to doing the typical Lob/Flash style things and I translated that style of pulling to my DRK.

I also never really thought scourge enmity would be enough but i'll try that out as well. Thanks for the tips.

I used to play healer, now I wanna play DRK?

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I used to play healer, now I wanna play DRK?

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Healing is the role that I have the least experience on. I believe the most accomplished thing I've done on a healer is solo-heal Titan HM on SCH in 2.2 lol. Even now I don't have one at 60, with closest being my SCH(read: SMN) at 54.

I took the liberty of checking your lodestone and seeing that DRK is the first tank you are leveling, or at least the one you have the highest.

My biggest recommendation to you is to level GLA/MRD at least to level 34/26 respectively to get all of your cross-class abilities and also get a feel for tanking on the two less punishing tanks. DRK is definitely more advanced in more ways than one.

As for experience brought from healing over to DRK, its not too dissimilar from that which would help you level any tank: "Did you hate seeing tanks do it on your healer? Then don't do it."

Additionally, I see SCH is your 60, I dunno if you toyed around with SMN at all, but it has a similar skill cap and some familiar aspects to it (priority system to the rotation, placed AoE, etc.)

But the TLDR of it is I would get your crash course in tanking by leveling GLA/MRD a bit first, as you'll want to do that anyway eventually. Doesn't have to be all the way to 60, but definitely to 34/26 respectively, to make sure you can handle tanking efficiently before you start messing with all the bells and whistles of DRK.

Best of luck!

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

As mentioned in the guide, I never recommend turning Grit off for trash in 4-man content. Just keep it on, pull more, and invest your DPS into AoE rather than Grit downtime/BW uptime. If you are the OT in 8-man content that is particularly trash-heavy, like A2N, rotate AoE bursts with BW and BP (depending on how much your MT is tanking/if you are tanking anything at all). Turning it off against 4+ mobs is inefficient as you're taking disproportionately increased damage with respect to the single-target DPS increase, whereas you could probably match yourself out of Grit in total AoE DPS by just keeping Grit on and AoEing larger packs. DRK's entire toolkit really lends itself to big pulls in 4-man content so I strongly recommend seizing the opportunity to push yourself to pull more to tap into the jobs potential (Getting thousands of MP back every couple of seconds, spamming AoE, being healed for it, and then when BP falls, blinding a pack of 10 mobs with a 250 potency AoE and then boosting your evasion with DADD. Its pretty godmode once you get a feel for the flow of it).

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Coolbeans.

Most of my problems come from the community:

- "Yo DRK, turn off GRIT for more damage!"
- "If you can't hold aggro with Grit off you need to git gud."

This lead to me getting the load screen (getting kicked from the group) because I chose to keep Grit up. Since that happened a lot (even as PLD I get booted due to Shield Oath), I'm TRYING to mix things up a bit. Sadly, this is why DF takes so long for tanks now, probably, because many of use just rather go/stay DPS.

I'll be the first to say that enmity generation with or without Grit is obscenely easy on DRK. But everyone starts somewhere and 6 months ago I was keeping Grit on plenty. But having it off, baring any adjustments we may see in 3.2 (honestly the whole vit/str ratio to AP is making it sound like it'll be even easier to forgo tank stance due to increased HP pools, unless they ramp up the mitigation checks in A5-9S considerably) is the final evolution so to speak, of being good at DRK. Its not something you can just do, it takes practice and a flawless knowledge of the rest of your tools and how to actively and constantly mitigate damage in Grit's absence while outputting maximum enmity with your spells.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I really haven't played SMN at all. I really want to give the rotation the time it deserves instead of just jumping in and being a fail DPS and I haven't really made time for that. I'm leveling the tank because I've had a bunch of IRL friends join recently: help with low-level stuff + them always needing a tank = I'm leveling a tank now. :)

I am really enjoying tanking and DRK in particular. I do have to stay in grit a lot right now, but if I do I don't have any issues with enmity. I can use provoke effectively. All this to say that I'm prolly not the best at tanking, and I could use some more practice, but I would say that I am proficient in the necessities of the role (relative to my level, of course).

I have GLD 23 + MRD 26, and I did that before I touched DRK; it was the last one I picked up. I still need awareness. At what point would you say that it's critical I go back for it?

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

"Did you hate seeing tanks do it on your healer? Then don't do it."

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Truer words have never been spoken.

Thank you!

ETA: Also, with the new changes coming in 3.2, you might want to mention under the Job Synergy section how much living dead is gonna suck for SCH. I'm still not sure how I'm going to deal with it. Sorry in advance if I kill you. :)

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

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Having all 3 tanks at 60, I would recommend that you get awareness right around the time you are starting to enter the "Qarn" part of the dungeon grind. It isn't that this dungeon needs this skill in particular, but I have always grouped dungeons in difficulty as Pre- Brayflox, Brayflox to Cutter's Cry, Stone Vigil to Aurum Vale. The more tanking experience you have up to this point, the stronger your foundation will be.

Of course, If you are very confident in your abilities presently, I can't think of a very needed use on awareness until 50.

I'm guessing that Living Dead will have some sort of adjustment - otherwise you may wanna clench up....

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

This lead to me getting the load screen (getting kicked from the group) because I chose to keep Grit up. Since that happened a lot (even as PLD I get booted due to Shield Oath), I'm TRYING to mix things up a bit. Sadly, this is why DF takes so long for tanks now, probably, because many of use just rather go/stay DPS.

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Who kicks a tank in the middle of a 4 man run? If true, those are some dumb randoms.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Who kicks a tank in the middle of a 4 man run? If true, those are some dumb randoms.

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I've never encountered or heard of in-game, anyone getting kicked from a DF run simply for having their tank stance on. Unless it was 8-24 man and they were the OT.

No Darkside, that might be another issue, but easily fixed without kicking.

I think people that choose to main DRK should really explore the AoE tanking possibilities and expand outside of their comfort zone when it comes to pulling bigger in 4-mans. The job is built for it in so many ways (AoE Blind and Evasion boost, high damage AoEs in general, MP per target hitting you and HP per target you hit). I think people do have this expectation of DRKs in the duty finder. I feel that as far as aggressive DRK tanking goes, you should be pulling enough that nobody else in your group wants to risk you dropping Grit.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I think people that choose to main DRK should really explore the AoE tanking possibilities and expand outside of their comfort zone when it comes to pulling bigger in 4-mans. The job is built for it in so many ways (AoE Blind and Evasion boost, high damage AoEs in general, MP per target hitting you and HP per target you hit). I think people do have this expectation of DRKs in the duty finder. I feel that as far as aggressive DRK tanking goes, you should be pulling enough that nobody else in your group wants to risk you dropping Grit.

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You must be getting really good healers a lot or are running with one, cause I can't even drop Grit even on boss fights with the majority of the DF roulettes i run because of under-skilled and under-geared healers. It actually makes me super cautious and I just can't pull big in anything I'm doing which frustrates me to no end cause I know I can pull more. To top it off, I also get crap DPS who decide that single targeting in a mob of 10 is a super great idea and it takes longer pulling bigger packs than the normal 3-4.

I generally grab about 5-6 mobs at the start of the dungeon and use that to gauge the rest of it. Healer keeps me healthy while dropping dots or Gravity or Holy, fantastic. I pull all the way and rotate everything I have. I dip a little bit too low too often, or the DPS are slow, I stick to 5-6 mobs. It's only when I outright melt that I resign myself to single pulls.

Don't be afraid to make things interesting for your healer. That having been said, you had better be hitting at least two minor mitigators or one major mitigator per pull.

Not to blow my horn, but I receive many comms in 4 man content and rarely drop grit, the only time i do is on the boss fights after my aggro rotation (if i have high aggro pulling dps) its as someones said previously aggro generation is super easy, Especially with grit, as well as having grit allows you to pull more than usually and abuse the hell out of Blood Price + Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, The mitigation that grit brings and hp recovery of the combo itself is so much better than droping Grit for the sake of a blood weapon, not to mention your healer will more times than not not have to worry about healing you for a good 15 - 20 seconds. so even they can dps. and you can still drop grit for blood weapon once the majority of the mobs are dead if you so wish to get your mp back up for the next pull, (which personally i don't bother unless my carve and split or Sole survivor is on CD)


Only time i would say its fine to run the whole thing without grit and i can kinda understand would be if you are only pulling single trash mobs at a time. (which as a Drk doesn't compliment your Aoe rotations very well) but your going to be doing that when you have dps that either refuse to Aoe or simply don't have any decent Aoe on their class. I've only had a few cases where ive had to do this but its always been to players not understanding their classes very well. which is fine because i really don't want to be in a daily roulette for an hour and a half XD

If a party is getting mad at that they simply are either stupid or just plain lazy and expecting a tank to do unrealistic damage to make up for that. XD

Just want to reiterate, turning off Grit is primarily for bosses, not trash pulls.

yeah, you may can achieve some trash by turning off grit, but never at the pull of many trash...
it's obvious

How do you manage to fit four combos before you reapply Scourge, and not only that, but have 2 seconds left before you have to reapply it? What Skill Speed do you need for that? Whenever I pull off 4 combos Scourge *just* falls off as I'm reapplying it.

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Originally Posted by MarioLazor

How do you manage to fit four combos before you reapply Scourge, and not only that, but have 2 seconds left before you have to reapply it? What Skill Speed do you need for that? Whenever I pull off 4 combos Scourge *just* falls off as I'm reapplying it.

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I am in that same boat right now as well after some gear changes since drafting this resulting in my SkS dipping down to about 600 and some change. Clipping Scourge by that much happens at about a 2.38 GCD - I can't recall off the top of my head what the SkS threshold is for that. It will vary depending on where Blood Weapon ends up in Scourge's duration, as there will be times where Scourge ticks almost its entire duration during BW's cooldown.

Posted this on the video forums, but it appears that DRK is getting some love:

https://giphy.com/gifs/iWrp1EHGAbOo0

4:52 on the trailer video. DRK splits into two.

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Originally Posted by Jekyll

Posted this on the video forums, but it appears that DRK is getting some love:

https://giphy.com/gifs/iWrp1EHGAbOo0

4:52 on the trailer video. DRK splits into two.

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As said in other threads, this is a boss mechanic.

A couple of questions that will probably be a bit tedious to answer but nonetheless I hoped will be answered,

For the oGCD skills which of them can be used with another and specifically which ones and what combinations are available. For example I think, although I'm not entirely sure: DA, DP, and CS are fast enough to be double weaved(?) with eachother.

And for the general main ST rotation, is it strictly DASE > DE at all times?

I used to use DASE x2 > DE rotationally and would oft to find myself almost bottoming out and having to probably punch out DE x2 to get back to a comfortable level of mana without compromising DACS DP usagae most of the time. My thought process being that I ideally would want more DASE's due to the mana gain from timed BW's and/or full BPs thus potentially allowing more DPS (minimal as it may or may not be) as well as the general WAR mindset of having uptime being during as much of your peak time (DASE x2/3) and hopefully DE recovery time is aligned with downtimes(whereupon I can rely on natural MP ticks or Ballad/MCHequivalent).

I haven't mathed out whether or not DAx2 DE into DE recovery (DEx2/3) is higher or lower so I would like an input from a seasoned DRK on what the universal optimal GCD rotation is.

uguuuuu stupid DRK is stupid fun and stupid hard 4 my Superior WAR mind

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

For the oGCD skills which of them can be used with another and specifically which ones and what combinations are available. For example I think, although I'm not entirely sure: DA, DP, and CS are fast enough to be double weaved(?) with eachother.

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From my experience, in order from shortest animation lock to longest - DP < CS < SaE < RE < BW < DA < LB < PL. Your mileage may vary and latency is most certainly a factor and I admit mine is not perfect, some nights I can double-weave LB with stuff and other nights I can't, something that I'm sure to crucify Comcast for one of these days. Of course, I would be extremely wary of double-weaving anything with a longer animation than SaE while BW is up, as your GCD can get as short as 2.11 seconds if you're running a super SkS-heavy build. As stated in the guide, I would ALWAYS use DACS and DP woven together to frontload your MP consumption. Having to account separately for 2 DPs and a DACS every minute can cut into DASE spam.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

And for the general main ST rotation, is it strictly DASE > DE at all times?

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This is heavily dependent on fight mechanics and any breaks you have. For example, in A3S, I used a rotation in the first phase of SC - PS - (Grit off+BW) - DASE - DASE - DASE - SC - DE - DE - DASE - (phase change) for a retardedly high burst. I'm ahead of my WAR by almost 100 DPS (although we even out towards the end of the fight, obviously). When OTing, I tend to stick to DASE - DE as BW is just enough to maintain this for an indefinite period assuming you hit DASC and DP on cooldown, however, any time you have Blood Weapon, you can double DASE without much immediate consequence, you just may have to do an extra DE later, but this isn't a big deal so long as you push that extra MP when it matters.

This all goes out the window when you are tanking outside of Grit and have access to BW and BP at once, in which case I usually just spam DASE until I need MP, then let my MP jump back up, with BW or BP and then go back to DASE spam as appropriate. You don't always need to alternate. You can drop 3 DASEs and then 3 DEs. It all depends on when you need burst or not, and when the DE debuff is actually important. You should also prioritize your physical oGCDs over DP and SaE during BWs uptime for maximum recovery.

How much you use DE vs DASE is ultimately dependent on a lot of factors:

1. Are you OTing or MTing? If strictly one of these two, definitely stick to DASE > DE repeat.
2. If MTing, are you tanking outside of Grit? If so, you can use DASE much more liberally.
3. Is there a MNK? If so, you only need to use DE for MP and nothing else, and the necessary usage quota of DE to maintain the debuff tends to be more than is needed for MP, by a small margin, which again, gets much larger if you tank outside of Grit.
4. Is there a DPS check coming up? If so, you need to burn that fucking mana like its going out of style. DE is almost always a DPS loss in these situations where you need to burst down an add or something.
5. Remember that every 4 combos SC needs reapplying, so don't forget if your rotation shifts in such a way that the combo you're used to applying it after changes.
6. If MTing, how much is the boss hitting you? Are there phases where he hits you considerably more or many times in succession?
7. If OTing, is there raid-wide or OT-targeted damage that you can pop BP for?
8. If you're spamming DASE, is there an upcoming surplus of MP that you can use to recover (BW coming off recast? Rapid series of hits taken from the boss/adds? An add dying that you can pop SS/AV on? A phase change/break/boss jump where you can expect a Ballad/PromoBishop)?

An optimal rotation is hard to pin down because as I said in the guide, its a priority system based largely on the list above. SC-DASE-DE-DASE-DE is the safe and "optimal" baseline. But if you want to put out WAR-like numbers and above, you have to study the fight under a microscope and look for windows in which you can aggressively burn MP, preferably with the promise of sufficient recovery opportunities afterwards. I'm fine with having to spam DE for a bit in a phase where burst is not nearly as important if that's the price of spamming DASE during an important check. So there is not an "optimal" rotation for every fight because the circumstances surrounding your MP consumption/recovery are never going to be the same from fight to fight or even phase to phase. I would say that I play DRK extremely aggressively, and I'm not afraid to let my MP drop to only a few DS ticks away from flooring if the DPS matters more at the time than it will later.

There are lots of optimal DPS tricks you can use revolving around uptime. The fact that you have ranged/AoE abilities (DP/PL and SaE respectively) in your ST rotation is a boon for uptime, because if you step away from the boss for a few seconds for a mechanic you can hit any one of these to maintain uptime/DPS. Weave them in between Unmends if you have to. Never let SC fall off the boss. SC is a slow-motion Fell Cleave over 30 seconds. Its one of the best DoTs in the game.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

uguuuuu stupid DRK is stupid fun and stupid hard 4 my Superior WAR mind

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DRK is stupid fun. And its not so much innately hard as hard to maximize. Even I have been known to fat-finger a thing or two in the sea of DAing things and hitting oGCDs. I would say it requires a LOT more mental focus and muscle memory, while being button-mashy doesn't = hard necessarily, the fact that DRK has so many buttons with such short recasts that you always have to keep an eye on to maximize DPS/mana recovery (to say nothing of procs) means it is punishing if you are not constantly vigilant. Once you know a fight well though, you can do some pretty retarded stuff that more novice DRKs will look at you questioningly for... "How do you have the MP for that? O.O"

Your MP management/recovery is not set in stone as I've said, it varies from encounter to encounter and there are LOTS of spots in any given fight where you can fish for extra MP that you can easily miss if you're not looking for it, and its this along with Gritless MTing that really allows you to push out those 800 potency DASE combos far more than seems fair, and prove what Yoshi said about DRK DPS vs. WAR DPS can be true. >=]

Apart from Fallen </3, you could've asked, in regards to the oGCD (Since Syzygian has answered you other question reasonably well)(If you're in the OT position, w/o blood weapon you're generally looking at 2 SS combo's per DA usage).

"DP < CS < SaE < RE < BW < DA < LB < PL" is a good list, however from my own testing I've found that DA and LB have two of the shortest animation locks, while BW weapon is second highest.
YMMV, but it also depends on which way you cancel and what GCD you're cancelling off of.

Cancelling off of SE usually only gets you one (or something like DP>DA>GCD), but off of DE/PS tends to be a lot safer. Also of note, is that you can GritOFF into any oGCD if you time it right, but grit on is a gcd which you can't usually double out of.

Also, you can maybe double LB/DP>DA during blood weapon, but that'll be the most of it.

In regards to future testing, I've found DA to have the shortest animation lock outside of DP (god bless DP), so I frequently use it for my secondary ogcd's to force the others to resolve faster (like fire weaving). Not sure if anyone else uses it like I do.

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Originally Posted by Violette

Apart from Fallen </3, you could've asked, in regards to the oGCD (Since Syzygian has answered you other question reasonably well)(If you're in the OT position, w/o blood weapon you're generally looking at 2 SS combo's per DA usage).

"DP < CS < SaE < RE < BW < DA < LB < PL" is a good list, however from my own testing I've found that DA and LB have two of the shortest animation locks, while BW weapon is second highest.
YMMV, but it also depends on which way you cancel and what GCD you're cancelling off of.

Cancelling off of SE usually only gets you one (or something like DP>DA>GCD), but off of DE/PS tends to be a lot safer. Also of note, is that you can GritOFF into any oGCD if you time it right, but grit on is a gcd which you can't usually double out of.

Also, you can maybe double LB/DP>DA during blood weapon, but that'll be the most of it.

In regards to future testing, I've found DA to have the shortest animation lock outside of DP (god bless DP), so I frequently use it for my secondary ogcd's to force the others to resolve faster (like fire weaving). Not sure if anyone else uses it like I do.

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Editing this in, its useful. :D