WAR 4.0

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Warrior's have a weakness; no Shield slot. There, I said it.

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At this point I feel the shield is a fancy paper weight.

Meh no changes for war....if you want to add that's good but the way warrior plays right now it's perfect. Burst Damage to match it's burst heals. You should be happy for that.

A class specific mount like Lobo's from DC comics.

I think a new self heal that's powered off the salty tears of dark knights and paladins would be cool.

all the tread is the same, you can blame all the war till the end of the times if you want.
please SE add a weakness to the war, for the sake of the tank forum XD.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

I think a new self heal that's powered off the salty tears of dark knights and paladins would be cool.

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That made my day.

Sidebar: I'm up in Fort Mac; AB 4 Life

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

all the tread is the same, you can blame all the war till the end of the times if you want.
please SE add a weakness to the war, for the sake of the tank forum XD.

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I'd count only having 4 CDs that force Wrath stacks a weakness; we should have 8

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

That made my day.

Sidebar: I'm up in Fort Mac; AB 4 Life

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Nice, in Calgary myself. Hopefully you still have a job up there!

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Originally Posted by Bashum

Nice, in Calgary myself. Hopefully you still have a job up there!

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Love Calgary! and the economy isn't as bad as the news portrays it; mostly just cutting the migrant fly in/out workers. I work for Enviro Canada myself, so while I'm not one of town's favourite people, unless they stop ripping up bitumen completely, I'm secure enough that I can't spend most of my shifts on the forums xD.

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I'd count only having 4 CDs that force Wrath stacks a weakness; we should have 8

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it can be a weakness yes , SE can also make raid where 6 second invulnerability is not enough, it would force a other tank to take this mechanics, and 2 war composition can't be affordable anymore.
i mean, it's possible to make raid where there weakness to the war.
Also make the raid more tanky where war can't afford to be too much to be in delivrance, or make a need on vita accesories so you can't buff so much the selfheal.
I think the current raid is also a lot war friendly, be able to wear so much str give an advantage to the war. it's why i think change in 3.2 will certainly balance something.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

it can be a weakness yes , SE can also make raid where 6 second invulnerability is not enough, it would force a other tank to take this mechanics, and 2 war composition can't be affordable anymore.
i mean, it's possible to make raid where there weakness to the war.
Also make the raid more tanky where war can't afford to be too much to be in delivrance, or make a need on vita accesories so you can't buff so much the selfheal.
I think the current raid is also a lot war friendly, be able to wear so much str give an advantage to the war. it's why i think change in 3.2 will certainly balance something.

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I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic for the sake of comedy.

yeah having 8 cds to for force wrath stacks would be too much awesome i think XD. it can be a weakness if you feed your cd for this wrath stacks when you can't afford. it's not realy a weakness in this case but a epic fail from the player feeding himslef with needed CD.

That's not a weakness of the job though, it's a player being bad. That's like saying blood for blood is a weakness because the player can't survive a ground aoe with it up. The skill is a strength, using it badly isn't a weakness just stupidity.

he was joking but yep it's not a weakness at all,
if we are joking, i should ask a healer stance for the war at 4.0 XD.

Wishful thinking would like to see the return of mighty strikes from 1.0.

Ok, so from everything that I've read: would lowering the self-healing potency for war, and allowing the other tanking classes to contribute equally to the party DPS be sufficient in dealing with some or all of what is seen as being "broken"?

Also, why does everyone want the crossbars/hotbars to be even more cluttered than they are by adding more and more skills? Just how is that supposed to help instead of just being more of a distraction to players? Seriously, everything is a total mess enough as it is. The only new abilities they really need to give are passives, simple additions to certain skills, and maybe a new limit break for each class for levels 61-70.

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Originally Posted by Yosho

Wishful thinking would like to see the return of mighty strikes from 1.0.

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I hardly played 1.0 past the opening CS, but if it's like Mighty Strikes from FFXI( every hit is critical for x seconds) We kind of already have that by comboing Deliverance 5 stacks+Internal Release. Not that I wouldn't enjoy a guaranteed crit window, hence my like xD

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

I hardly played 1.0 past the opening CS, but if it's like Mighty Strikes from FFXI( every hit is critical for x seconds) We kind of already have that by comboing Deliverance 5 stacks+Internal Release. Not that I wouldn't enjoy a guaranteed crit window, hence my like xD

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I didn't play 1.0 either, but while we're on the new trend of mirrored skills for defiance and deliverance, just make raw intuition give 100% parry in defiance and 100% Crit in deliverance.

heheheehehhee

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I didn't play 1.0 either, but while we're on the new trend of mirrored skills for defiance and deliverance, just make raw intuition give 100% parry in defiance and 100% Crit in deliverance.

heheheehehhee

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Love it, popping RI for a wrath stack AND 100% Crit xD #WARRIORSMASH

Give war a dps lb while in deliverance called "Super Fell Cleave" that just kills everything. Not just the boss...but everything.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Ok, so from everything that I've read: would lowering the self-healing potency for war, and allowing the other tanking classes to contribute equally to the party DPS be sufficient in dealing with some or all of what is seen as being "broken"?

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"Broken" is harsh. "Unbalanced" is more appropriate. Every other group of jobs in a given role in this game tends to follow a consistent trend. As utility rises, dps drops, and vice versa. For example; NIN - high utility, lower dps DRG - mid utility, mid dps MNK - high dps lower utility, and so on.

With tanks WAR has highest DPS, highest utility, and interestingly seems to survive in the absence of external healing longer than the other tanks, thanks to Equilibrium being on a 60s CD, Bloodbath lasting 30s in conjunction with Berserk, and being able to cross class SW, making it a fundamentally better tank even without its personal DPS or utility. It doesn't have any meaningful weaknesses that facilitate raid/party synergy. It doesn't have anything that needs to be covered for it. Its an island unto itself.

And if you just "bring all the other tanks up to WARs level" (an often parroted response that I don't think anyone has actually thought out to a reasonable or realistic conclusion, they just say it because they don't want any WAR nerfs no matter how slight they are, such as a minor recast time increase on a cooldown), then you just shift the imbalance from being between WAR and the other tanks to being between all tanks and the other jobs, which all have readily definable strengths and weaknesses and are well-designed in the context of being part of a greater whole (a party or raid group) whereas WAR is "well-designed" in the context of being a 1-man army that insists not upon being part of a whole, but being THE whole.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

And if you just "bring all the other tanks up to WARs level" (an often parroted response that I don't think anyone has actually thought out to a reasonable or realistic conclusion.

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The problem is that when you think, "bring tanks to WARs level" you probably think about buffing damage and outright cloning WARs properties into DRK and PLD and that just isn't necessary at all. The reason WAR is so "well balanced" or "well designed" is because a lot of it skills are balanced to be useful as both an OT and MT, something DRK and PLD are horribly lacking. Vengeance and Raw Intuition? Stacks for your Triple Fell Cleave. Equilibrium? TP Recovery when OTing, HP when MTing. There are just very few skills in the WAR toolbox that are ever useless at any given time, regardless of what the Warrior is doing.

On the other hand PLD and DRK have a large numbers of skill that are just rendered useless the moment they decided to change from MT to OT (or vice-versa). DRK suffers from this the most. What do you use Dark Dance for when OTing? Reprisal? That's useless. When MTing you can't use Blood Weapon while Grit is on, forcing DRK's to treat Grit like Herpes. The duality skills have between OT and MT position is something that has been horribly implemented, one of the best planned out skills in their arsenal is Carve and Spit as it actually offers the sort of dual utility tanks need in this game. Why not allow DRK's to use Blood Weapon while on grit but with a different effect than when Grit is off? Why not just make Reprisal an oGCD that has its timer reduced by X seconds whenever you successfully parry? (Allowing DRK's to use it while OTing and more frequently when MTing). Why is Abyssal Drain so useless in most raids?

PLD's? It is a bit different but they need their utility buffed enormously and again skills need to be planned out to be useful while MTing AND OTing. SE clearly had this idea when they introduced skills like Clemency, Divine Veil and Cover but it's so half-assed that it needs some sort of overhaul. Why does Divine Veil require a heal to activate? It makes zero sense. Why does clemency scale of Spell Speed? Why can it be interrupted so easily since a tank ALWAYS takes damage? Why is cover so horribly situational? Give it extra benefits or reduce its cooldown. Bulwark is a joke and Tempered Will is useless most of the time (useful when needed but that’s situational). Again, like I mentioned before, PLD needs skill to have some sort of usage while both OTing and MTing, they have a DPS and a Tank stance, why can't their skills change a bit whenever they change their stances to reflect what they are actually doing? Maybe have Tempered Will work somewhat like Equilibrium and offer the PLD TP refresh when OTing and HP refresh when MTing? PLDs need their utility boosted significantly.

The point is that ultimately skills need to be designed in a way that they aid the tank in their duality (OT and MT), WAR is perfectly designed in this sense while DRK and PLD are just not. I mean, in theory balance between DRK and WAR is perfect (WAR has better OT damage and DRK has better MT damage) but in the end WAR always wins out because the rigid design of DRK just doesn't make it very flexible, same for PLD but to a lesser extent. PLD has crap DPS? Fine, but buff their utility ENORMOUSLY, make them like BRDs/MCHs, the lowest damage of all the tanks with the best utility (making them desirable) and for the love of god, fix their TP issues.

This can all be done without making everyone a WAR clone, does WAR have issues? Yes, it definitely does. Equilibrium is OP as heck (it should be a 90s cooldown at LEAST) and Path is incredibly powerful considering it reduces ALL damage DIRECTLY (unlike DRK and PLD, who decrease the STAT, making it a less efficient reduction), 10% STR/INT reduction =/= 10% less physical/magic damage. Path should, perhaps, have its efficiency halved.

TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

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Originally Posted by Merkava

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This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and one of the few I've gotten that sounds like it was written by someone that's actually played all 3 tanks at endgame and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

On an unrelated note:

http://i.imgur.com/THIJo.png

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Originally Posted by Merkava

TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

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And yet more DPS allows a tank to do the same numbers without sacrificing its tanking skills for a minor, minor dps gain. If people were just more comfortable with tank soft-swaps on CD in the first place, you'd likely get more raid dps out of just using Vengeance and Raw Intuition as, shocker, mitigation tools. Pretty much any time that's not the case, you're heavily overgeared or the fight's white or just more frequent-interval damage is undertuned (one of the chief complaints of tanks and healers alike). I've no issue with leaving WAR as the one tank that can choose to waste its MT set for a generally less efficient OT gain.

I'd be cool with seeing skills have a dual benefit that favors OTing or whatnot, but wasting a 15s 30% or a 20s 20% miti just for abandon stacks is not what I'd call a good example.

@ Syzygian: lol, 10/10 for that picture. I do hope balance changes are made as improving other tanks can only benefit the community as a whole, it's just a pity when peoples e-pens get in the way of productive discussion.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And yet more DPS allows a tank to do the same numbers without sacrificing its tanking skills for a minor, minor dps gain. If people were just more comfortable with tank soft-swaps on CD in the first place, you'd likely get more raid dps out of just using Vengeance and Raw Intuition as, shocker, mitigation tools. Pretty much any time that's not the case, you're heavily overgeared or the fight's white or just more frequent-interval damage is undertuned (one of the chief complaints of tanks and healers alike). I've no issue with leaving WAR as the one tank that can choose to waste its MT set for a generally less efficient OT gain.

I'd be cool with seeing skills have a dual benefit that favors OTing or whatnot, but wasting a 15s 30% or a 20s 20% miti just for abandon stacks is not what I'd call a good example.

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Keep in mind that I didn't suggest other tanks had to have a stack system like WAR does, also let's go over a few small bits about tanking before I give my response to that. Tanks have a few priorities they should always follow, ie...

1) Enmity
2) Mitigation
3) DPS

1 or 2 can never be less important than 3, 1 and 2 are rarely mutually exclusive; but, what people don't often realize is that 1, 2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive at all, if the tank knows what they are doing. If a tank burns a cooldown only to not have it ready when they need it then they made a bad choice, period. A tank should never sacrifice their chance of survival for the sake of higher DPS. So, for example, burning your cooldowns early and not having them ready for the tankbuster is just inexcusable tank-fail. That doesn't mean, in the case of WAR, that you should never use your cooldowns CDs for extra DPS, as long as you know you'll have them ready when the time comes.

Examples:
Thordan EX: WAR has 3 jobs as OT...
1) Tank one of the Knight Adds.
2) Tank Spear of Fury in Phase 5.
3) Pick up Thordan if the MT dies.
I start the fight with Triple fell Cleave and I DO burn Vengeance and Raw Intuition BEFORE Phase 1 is over. I, however, burn Vengeance first in order to ensure that its ALWAYS up by the time the Knight Adds spawn, there is no problem with this as I have it ready when I need it. I also have it ready for Phase 5 (along IB and Thrill of Battle). And I usually keep vengeance in cooldown past this point in order to ensure I can swap with the MT in case of any misfortune. There is nothing wrong burning CDs there, as long as its ready when you need it.

A1S:
I need vengeance up by the time the tank buster kicks in, so I start with a double fell Cleave opener (instead of triple). I burn Vengeance AND raw intuition pre-pull and they are always up when I need it. Again, it's all a matter of proper battle planning.

And to be clear, triple fell cleave is not a "small DPS gain", it is a HUGE dps gain. One of the key reasons MT war loose a lot of DPS, as windows for triple fell cleave and much more limited (on top of having to sacrifice it for IB). Again, I did not say everyone should become a WAR clone, what I said is that many skills should be tuned to function in both an OT and MT position. Similar to how Equilibrium changes it effect depending if you are in Tank or DPS stance. WAR is the only tank with a stack system anyway, DRK and PLD don't need it.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

On an unrelated note:

http://i.imgur.com/THIJo.png

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Not sure if serious or not (sarcasm isn't my forte) so I'll answer anyway :p

Grit is kin to courage, determination. Guts, if you may.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Not sure if serious or not (sarcasm isn't my forte) so I'll answer anyway :p

Grit is kin to courage, determination. Guts, if you may.

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Vinny is speaking for every good MT DRK who has been asked to turn on Grit unnecessarily.

I.E. joke :P

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

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This statement made me laugh, due to so many of your posts are so snarky towards the Warrior class.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Both tanks have an increased DPS burden/learning curve just in different areas. For the best tank in the game, WARs sure are defensive about their seemingly impregnable throne, and above all, they can't seem to defend it without woefully underselling the other two tanks.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ets-nerf-WAR-D

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Basically, WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet* for your job to have drawbacks and areas where its less than optimal.

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I could do this all day xD

#Delicious #Forums4life

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Vinny is speaking for every good MT DRK who has been asked to turn on Grit unnecessarily.

I.E. joke :P

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ooooooh gotcha :)

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

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Funny how things taken out of context can be used for... snark...

The dude had good points and he debated with me like a person instead of getting all uppity or caustic just because I suggested WAR might be just a little bit much in some areas. I respect that. And he also managed to do it without completely shitcanning the other tanks or flopping his e-peen onto my face.

You should give that a try instead of being vindictive and digging up posts from literally *months* ago. #GetOverIt #NotThatIntoYou

The fact is, I am far from the only person to have ever thought that WAR was overpowered or unbalancing to the game in certain ways, and to have had opinions based on that. With the exception of folks like Merkava the response has always been unbridled vitriol, rudeness, butthurt, and, well, snark, instead of reasonable discussion, so you'll excuse me if I learned my snark from the best ;)

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Funny how things taken out of context can be used for... snark...

The dude had good points and he debated with me like a person instead of getting all uppity or caustic just because I suggested WAR might be just a little bit much in some areas. I respect that. And he also managed to do it without completely shitcanning the other tanks or flopping his e-peen onto my face.

You should give that a try instead of being vindictive and digging up posts from literally *months* ago. #GetOverIt #NotThatIntoYou

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Context.... xD the fallacy of your statement is even more comical than the irony of your previous one.

#godspeed

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Context.... xD the fallacy of your statement is even more comical than the irony of your previous one.

#godspeed

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Your continuing to spike the ball here is proving my point, really.

I get cheap thrills for calling people to account.

#onlyhuman ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

I get cheap thrills for calling people to account.

#onlyhuman ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Hmm. And what am I accounting for exactly? Having an opinion on tank balance based on my experience playing with all 3 at 60 in-game, Mr. WAR@60-PLD@34-DRK-@NotEvenUnlocked?

You'll find that most, well, reasonable people react to snark with snark, and react to reasonable discussion with reasonable discussion.

I'm just sorry that my polite exchange with another person on the forums had to send you into a tailspin of attempted trolling and dredging up past posts out-of-context.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Hmm. And what am I accounting for exactly? Having an opinion on tank balance based on my experience playing with all 3 at 60 in-game, Mr. WAR@60-PLD@34-DRK-@NotEvenUnlocked?

You'll find that most, well, reasonable people react to snark with snark, and react to reasonable discussion with reasonable discussion.

I'm just sorry that my polite exchange with another person on the forums had to send you into a tailspin of attempted trolling and dredging up past posts out-of-context.

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I bolded my Favourite parts xD Probably going to change my name to Mr. War@60-PLD@34DRK-@NoTEvenUnlocked.
You made my day, friend ;D

More Cleaves?

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Originally Posted by Merkava

The problem is that when you think, "bring tanks to WARs level" you probably think about buffing damage and outright cloning WARs properties into DRK and PLD and that just isn't necessary at all.

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TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

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This is so true, and I think a lot can be done with PLDs tank and DPS stances than by just adding more clutter to player's ability bars. Like, how there is this complaint that PLD is a bad choice for raids and stuff because of their DPS, But, GLD is supposed to be this really flashy and obnoxious center of attention with high defense and HP. So, why not make it so that Shield Oath buffs the other party members damage because the enemy is supposed to be distracted by them, and because PLD is a shield, making it so that cover is a skill that players want to use- and not this one time thing would play closer to their role as a shield. But, no. It's just "more offensive skills plz".

The Dark knight is another problem with a functional, but unnecessarily messy skillset, IMO&ATM.

I think it's good how it is now.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Multiple Snips

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Multiple Snips

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And this, folks, is why I come to these forums with a bag of popcorn. :D

P.S. Nice to see where your new signature comes from Iagainsti! :p

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

So, why not make it so that Shield Oath buffs the other party members damage because the enemy is supposed to be distracted by them, and because PLD is a shield, making it so that cover is a skill that players want to use.

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That's already happening! It's called melee landing positionals and not miss attacks because of accuracy bonuses on flank/rear! :p

But I agree with you that DRK is a whole big can of messy worms.

On topic, I still demand WAR gets a shield in 4.0! Learns Cover, equilibrium becomes AoE so it heals party HP or fills party TP based on stance. Homlgang lasting 10 seconds and not requiring a target. Also, merge fell cleave with IB, steel cyclone with Decimate and add 50% heal, and finally make Unchained available in Deliverance as a 30% damage reduction defensive CD! Mhm mhm.. #TankBalance

While at it, delete the other two tanks. They're not needed..... Probably the other DPS too, WAR is enough. ^^ #WARForLife.

Okay okay, the last 2 paragraphs are sarcasm. Please don't sue me!

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

And this, folks, is why I come to these forums with a bag of popcorn. :D

P.S. Nice to see where your new signature comes from Iagainsti! :p

While at it, delete the other two tanks. They're not needed..... Probably the other DPS too, WAR is enough. ^^ #WARForLife.

Okay okay, the last 2 paragraphs are sarcasm. Please don't sue me!

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Welcome Back! Been awhile, and as you can see, nothing's changed xD.

To add to your post, especially with the new damage calculations on the horizon and the thought of Warriors going in 22k+ HP and still doing 8kx3 Cleaves, the only reason to bring another tank would be to fill an LB bar faster xD Might as well delete them.

#WarIsLife

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

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LOL, they'll never turn PLD into an offensive type of job though. And, buffing the other party members would help make them more viable while keeping it with the jobs identity in Final Fantasy. That or they could make it so that PLDs could nullify damage passively.

It's what some of the idea threads seem to be suggesting though, IMO.