Can we please stop locking content out of DF?

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

The anonymity of the DF encourages people to participate. Once you participate, you learn and get better which then rubs off on others who are learning. Nobody benefits from limiting the number of people participating in content.

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Er. In my experience it's completely the opposite. The anonymity of the DF encourages people to scream at everyone, act like assholes, and basically be ragequitting douchebags. PF groups tend to stay together longer when attempting difficult content.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Er. In my experience it's completely the opposite. The anonymity of the DF encourages people to scream at everyone, act like assholes, and basically be ragequitting douchebags. PF groups tend to stay together longer when attempting difficult content.

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We all have our own experiences ;)

For me, the people to people to scream at everyone, act like assholes, and basically be ragequitting douchebags have been on Party Finder. Duty Finder is generally pretty silent except for 1-2 people who are trying to explain things while everyone else ignores them. After a few wipes, vote abandon pops up or 1 person leaves.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

As far I remember, the ex versions were premade right at that start. Solo queue got introduced at a later time together with echo buff.

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The original three EX primals were initially available via the DF. It wasn't until Leviathan EX that EX primals were kept outside of the DF for a period of time. Yoshi-P talked about the reasoning for the change a bit in an interview (I thought it was in a Live Letter, but I just looked through the ones around that time and didn't find the reference).

You can essentially confirm this in the Patch 2.2 notes. Echo was added to the duties at this time, but there was no change mentioned about being able to solo queue for them because you could already do so.

I am completely impartial to this either way. I would make a PF regardless but I can understand wanting to run it on DF. Thing is if your hours are awkward enough that a PF won't fill then it's also likely a df queue won't either in any reasonable amount of time. (Supposing you've actually tried putting up a PF of course)

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

some mechanics that still require lots and lots and lots of attempts

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We had not more than 3 or 4 wipes. Odin was very easy compared to real Ex Primae.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

We had not more than 3 or 4 wipes. Odin was very easy compared to real Ex Primae.

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Agreed. I would consider Odin more like a HM primal than an EX primal. My initial group beat it in one shot, we had a couple of mistakes but everything was straight forward and recoverable if a mistake was made. It basically a DPS/HPS check with a few mechanics.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

We had not more than 3 or 4 wipes. Odin was very easy compared to real Ex Primae.

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That's because Odin wasn't an EX primal. A lot of us kept hoping for an EX version of that fight. :/

I went in a premade with my static and we one-shotted Odin lol.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So people should have to jump through a couple extra hoops to enter it, and there should be no practice outside statics?

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As if Party Finder doesn't exist... and what do you know, there's server communities that use PF for that very purpose (and even for straight clears) for the benefit of those unable (or unwilling) to commit to a static.

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And what about the EX primals?

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What about them? They don't end up in DF on launch, and those are tiered below 8 man raids in difficulty.

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Odin was in the DF from the start, and it was about on par with the ex primals in 2.x.

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No it wasn't. At best it was Titan HM difficulty, and even then I'm probably giving it too much credit.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

What about them? They don't end up in DF on launch, and those are tiered below 8 man raids in difficulty.

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That's exactly my point. EX Primals don't require elaborate explaining of mechanics and coordination of who is doing what, so why are they left out of the DF at launch? The mechanics are blow up adds, dodge telegraphed attacks, and occasionally don't fall off. What part of that requires a premade party?

Odin had a dps/healer/tank check that was higher than any other post-PF straight to DF content by quite a bit. Titan difficulty was 80% hardware/ping check.

The funny thing about content is that it's easier to beat the first couple weeks than it is 3-6 months later. Steps of Faith was a whole lot easier to get through in the first week than it was the last week before the nerf. The same goes for all content that isn't a unforgiving gear check.

tl;dr- gear checks are significantly above the item level norms upon release (norm for savage release was about il 182-190 while AS3 comfortably requires il 200-210)

I believe across the board (maybe excluding Shiva ex), at the time these fights have released, the gear checks have been such that while highly organized or geared statics/pugs can succeed in the fights, they wouldn't function in a df setting on release. I guess as a recent example, Turns 10-13 of the binding coil came out when the gear norm was il 110. Once they were released into the df, the minimum gear requirement for T13 was il 123. To put this into perspective, most players were unable to obtain il 130 gear until patch 2.5, 4 months after release of 2.4. The point of these fights being 'locked out' of the duty finder, is to challenge players who will actually take it seriously and work together for extended periods of time.

The Extremes require comparatively less coordination/teamwork/DPS/mechanics compared to Savage. That's why they're at a lower tier to Savage in difficulty, not because they don't require anything at all. If you think mechanics like Final Liberation don't require coordination for groups to navigate through then you're either completely naive or ignorant.

You know an example of a Trial that required little of the above? Steps of Faith, and look how that turned out. Reality is, the only reason DF stuff works out in this game is due to the content being set up to be clearable with minimum effort (whether on launch or through nerfs/echo/gear). On top of all that, you get video/written guides available telling you what to do and when.

Doesn't matter if you think that you can't clear some content in the Duty Finder, some people obviously want to at least try. It wouldn't harm the people who do only Party Finder groups in any way, so locking it out of the Duty Finder is only illogical and dumb.

It has to do with Japanese Ideology for what the DF is for.

In Japan, if you sign up for the DF, you're expected to know what you should be doing for a quick and easy clear. Using it for your first time is considered very rude, as you're imposing your inexperience on a bunch of random people that would rather just get it done. The Party Finder is for making and finding groups for learning and such.

I agree with that ideology for the PF vs DF, but since people in the west would rather take the easier route, the uses for both has practically flipped from the what the developer's intend.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

The Extremes require comparatively less coordination/teamwork/DPS/mechanics compared to Savage. That's why they're at a lower tier to Savage in difficulty, not because they don't require anything at all. If you think mechanics like Final Liberation don't require coordination for groups to navigate through then you're either completely naive or ignorant.

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And many dungeon bosses have mechanics beyond tank and spank, so should faceroll dungeons be removed from duty finder?

Like you said, there's video guides. If everyone knows the fight, handling the mechanics is just a matter of putting down waymarks and saying X do this, Y do that. 30 seconds of prep work and a few practice runs required for noobs shouldn't disqualify something from the duty finder.

I got a funny scenario for you peeps who want Savage in DF.

Say I queue with 7-8ths of my static and we carry you through the fight, and now there is no chest. See in DF you would have been placed into the group whether you wanted the no chest run or not, there is no confirmation for you to click on.

Along with that the groups that do fail repeatedly waste instance space. So if all the players were just DF failing AS1 over and over and over again, then actual statics might not even be able to get an instance reserved for them to run on time. Meaning no one would have been progressing at all.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I got a funny scenario for you peeps who want Savage in DF.

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The same scenario applies to PF.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

And many dungeon bosses have mechanics beyond tank and spank,

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Like what? 'Attack these adds', 'remove this debuff', 'click on this object', 'run away from the orange telegraph'? Yeah, definitely on the level of Extremes right there. Also you're comparing 4 man content to 8 man, which is far different. We've had players asking for harder 4 man dungeons, that's how non-challenging on the whole they are even with mechanics.

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so should faceroll dungeons be removed from duty finder?

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Except it's 'faceroll dungeons' that the DF is made to accommodate in the first place. Hence why anything remotely challenging has to be nerfed (or held back long enough for people to become overgeared for) to be 'DF approved'. Even if it's Sastasha.

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

It has to do with Japanese Ideology for what the DF is for.

In Japan, if you sign up for the DF, you're expected to know what you should be doing for a quick and easy clear. Using it for your first time is considered very rude, as you're imposing your inexperience on a bunch of random people that would rather just get it done. The Party Finder is for making and finding groups for learning and such.

I agree with that ideology for the PF vs DF, but since people in the west would rather take the easier route, the uses for both has practically flipped from the what the developer's intend.

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Exactly.

Even when the content is easy, this community is content on using DF as an avenue to make little to no effort since 'lol it's only Duty Finder, doesn't matter' yet somehow making content like Savage available to DF is going to cause enough people to suddenly take DF seriously to the level like JP players do? As if.

Question: What if there was a DF that allowed parties of 7x with clear flag and 1x without. (or 8x with clear if queue pops that way). If there's a no-clear, first-time bonus is in play. 1 player to show through can't be that bad as long as 7 are confirmed to know the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by Callback

Question: What if there was a DF that allowed parties of 7x with clear flag and 1x without. (or 8x with clear if queue pops that way). If there's a no-clear, first-time bonus is in play. 1 player to show through can't be that bad as long as 7 are confirmed to know the whole fight.

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If im reading this right are you saying have it set up that every queue has 7 who have cleared and 1 who has not?

If that is the case that 99% of the time the once person without the clear is going to get carried. Why even bother doing the fight at all if you're just gonna get carried through it.

As I said I may be reading it wrong and you may not mean what I took it as and if thats the case sorry.

I've had much better luck clearing things using DF parties than PF parties. People seem more dedicated to getting a clear in DF, hell I cleared Ravana Ex just a few days ago in DF with two other fresh people after wiping a few times.

In comparison, most of these PF parties fall apart after 2 wipes and that's soul crushing after waiting two hours for it to fill up in the first place... ( ‘-‘)ﾉ)`-‘)*ow*
However, I don't think Savage should be in Duty Finder simply because it's designed as 'team building', but EX primals? I don't think it would hurt to see them in Duty Finder sooner.

yeah i agree they shouldnt lock out of df when first released

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Originally Posted by Andrea

If im reading this right are you saying have it set up that every queue has 7 who have cleared and 1 who has not?

If that is the case that 99% of the time the once person without the clear is going to get carried. Why even bother doing the fight at all if you're just gonna get carried through it.

As I said I may be reading it wrong and you may not mean what I took it as and if thats the case sorry.

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More of active learning. With 7 people who have cleared before, it's a much more reliable setup, and that player can focus on their own mistakes rather than randomly failing because someone else decided to screw up. the only time it would be "carried" with no chance to actually learn would be if they were to fall off any trial with an edge and not even get to see the rest of the fight. That's one issue with the game as a whole, tho. The death camera should be able to watch other people continue forward. (and do those deaths really need to be unreviveable? It's an insta-kill already, why make it worse?)

Are you suggesting that players can somehow play through a whole duty without actually learning it from the experience? The "carry" ensures that they are able to go through it properly and adjust to all of the mechanics in a safer environment than full randoms/multiple newcomers.

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Originally Posted by Callback

Are you suggesting that players can somehow play through a whole duty without actually learning it from the experience? The "carry" ensures that they are able to go through it properly and adjust to all of the mechanics in a safer environment than full randoms/multiple newcomers.

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You can indeed get carried through stuff without dying. For example, Me and another 6 people queue for A1S. We say get a dragoon. The dragoon doesnt die but does like 400 dps. That is a carry that didn't involve death.

Also im sorry but people that get carried 99% of the time probably don't even realize whats going on around them. Some, sure might understand and learn, but the majority would just look at it as an easy clear and learn nothing

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Originally Posted by Andrea

You can indeed get carried through stuff without dying. For example, Me and another 6 people queue for A1S. We say get a dragoon. The dragoon doesnt die but does like 400 dps. That is a carry that didn't involve death.

Also im sorry but people that get carried 99% of the time probably don't even realize whats going on around them. Some, sure might understand and learn, but the majority would just look at it as an easy clear and learn nothing

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Usually, the 4 DPS each have to grab 1 add each - in which case the DRG would need to learn to do this, or risk wiping everyone.

Although, I agree with your second point. Many people play poorly, but use the evidence of their clears of their skill. It's clear from the lack of their skill that they were carried in some fashion.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Like what? 'Attack these adds', 'remove this debuff', 'click on this object', 'run away from the orange telegraph'? Yeah, definitely on the level of Extremes right there.

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Oh, the extra mechanics of extremes, like 'ignore this add for 30 seconds/altogether', 'don't fall off', 'pile up/spread out'. Well not those, those are on dungeon bosses too.

The only differences are the level of gear checks, HP, and number of different attacks. Nothing in any of the fights requires hours of practice as a group and VOIP chat.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Usually, the 4 DPS each have to grab 1 add each - in which case the DRG would need to learn to do this, or risk wiping everyone.

Although, I agree with your second point. Many people play poorly, but use the evidence of their clears of their skill. It's clear from the lack of their skill that they were carried in some fashion.

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My example probably wasn't the best example to use but yeah I agree with people using clears as evidence of their skill when it could have just been a carry.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

You can indeed get carried through stuff without dying. For example, Me and another 6 people queue for A1S. We say get a dragoon. The dragoon doesnt die but does like 400 dps. That is a carry that didn't involve death.

Also im sorry but people that get carried 99% of the time probably don't even realize whats going on around them. Some, sure might understand and learn, but the majority would just look at it as an easy clear and learn nothing

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That seems improbable in a game this simple. How is it even physically possible to do that little in a game where "combat" is just point-and-click and pressing keys in the right order? I refuse to believe that it is possible to fail to master a duty in a single run through.

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How is it even physically possible to do that little in a game where "combat" is just point-and-click and pressing keys in the right order?

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Except players don't even bother to do that. Then when you attempt to advice such players on what to do to be more effective, it becomes "Don't tell me what to do! I can play how I want!!"

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Originally Posted by Callback

That seems improbable in a game this simple. How is it even physically possible to do that little in a game where "combat" is just point-and-click and pressing keys in the right order? I refuse to believe that it is possible to fail to master a duty in a single run through.

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Are we playing the same game...? Hell people still dont know about the bees in Sunken temple for example.

You are giving the community far too much credit to think someone wont "Fail to master a duty in a single run."

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Are we playing the same game...? Hell people still dont know about the bees in Sunken temple for example.

You are giving the community far too much credit to think someone wont "Fail to master a duty in a single run."

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Based off the majority of his posts, I would say he is just trolling Andrea.

Still no one using their PFs has given a reason how adding stuff to DF would effect them...

on page 8

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Still no one using their PFs has given a reason how adding stuff to DF would effect them...

on page 8

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I think the answer has already been stated that it's a cultural difference between NA/EU and JP in terms of viewing DF, and that the Dev team has it designed with the JP view in mind.

Another possibility, that has been suggested, is that it has to do with loot lockouts and potentially screwing over your team. This would require a rework of how loot lockouts work.

Another possibility, that has been suggested, is that the ilvl of player gear is below the recommended ilvl at the time of release.

All of that said, I think it should be in the DF and that they could simply address the concerns above.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Still no one using their PFs has given a reason how adding stuff to DF would effect them...

on page 8

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Honestly speaking I see no problem with everything being in the DF on release. While its not something that 100% needs to be in the game it would be a good change none the less and I wouldn't mind if I saw it in the next patch notes.

Sure they would need to fix the few current problems that would come with it before bringing it in but they same easy enough changes and would help the community.

Im all for putting content in DF, especially raid content. I don't mind wiping for hours on end on my alt class since I never get to raid as it. Though you should understand that Thordan, AS1-AS4, you're not clearing that in a DF unless you get people who have already cleared it before carrying the people who haven't. This means that they are most likely locked out already too so you won't be seeing many/any gear even if you do get carried (atleast in the raid's case).

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Are we playing the same game...? Hell people still dont know about the bees in Sunken temple for example.

You are giving the community far too much credit to think someone wont "Fail to master a duty in a single run."

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Sorry, I forgot that we had the "babby's first vidyagame" community and that somehow in a combat system that lets you pretend you're actually playing some people can still get confused.

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Originally Posted by Callback

Sorry, I forgot that we had the "babby's first vidyagame" community and that somehow in a combat system that lets you pretend you're actually playing some people can still get confused.

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Considering how you only have one battle class to 60, in Void Ark gear and not a single piece of raiding gear (Alex Savage or Thordan EX) you haven't quite seen the challenging fights this game can present.

I needed around uhmm 30 attempts before a group made it through, but still I prefer that then no possibilities to do anything ebcause is not available for those that cant get into a group or get a group....Ramuh ex took me 340+ mn to get into a group.. in a day of 12h, I made two runs the two runs, were filled with the exact same people at veryl arge different timings...what does it say ? it says that the content is not used, that nobody is bothered to do it sync and those that would like to dont even manage to get a group over a whole server not world server...you think that a pf would help? guess what it doesnt those are not contents that people wants to do...content should be available for everybody tools are there and not using them is setting part of the comunity out, a comunity that, shall I remind you all about, pays like you that can get a static and the like.

If people want to wipe a 10000000x what is that for a problem ? to you taht dont use DF ? shouldnt be your concern. As said, if the tool is there you are free to use it or not. if the tool is not there, then you cant even attempt it and de facto ostracize part of the community which is on many accounts wrong, for what consideration ? gears wise ? we all know that in DF it will take AGES to get through a savage fight or a Thor Ex fight so those that will get gears from there wont get them before long right. For those that say DF is used by pros and people that pass it are carried by those pros , once more and again those that choose DF did it on their own account if they carry newplayers, then is THEIR Problem and THEIR decision, nobody forced them to come to DF., so please dont blame the DFers newbies/learners call them the way you want, they are not guilty of YOUR choice. You still have the PF if you dont want to carry anyone. Loot shouldnt be a problem, and seen that it is far harder to get a gear out of a run in DF, where is that jealousy that eventually potentially some DFers would get a gear that you soo wanted and never could get in your so perfect PF party ? yes ?...

Sometimes I wonder truely what people want, you all claim nothign should be easy, and ALL of you or the great majority of you run on a regular basis stuff unsync...call it an hypocrisie

As long as this community prefers to use DF the way they do - as well as the nature of DF itself - attempting to marry it with high-level team coordinated content will never work. Unless you alter said content drastically, which leads to Alexander Normal Mode. Expecting that element to succeed with Savage, on launch, where things like team composition alone (an element DF doesn't account for, as it just throws whoever, as long as it's a tank/dps/healer) is a factor on success is simply naive. When DF, for example, can throw you in a party with 3 BRDs and a MCH as your DPS, along with 2 ASTs and 2 PLDs, no sensible person is going to bother sticking around. In VA such a comp wouldn't make a difference because the bar is pretty low there, but it wouldn't fly in much difficult content.

A more sensible suggestion would be to implement a cross-server PF feature. In fact this is something Yoshi himself said he wants to do, so you should push for that.

Stuff like Thordan? Sure. I'm not exactly sure why they don't go to the DF immediately. Highest level raid content? It wouldn't work because of the loot system. Difficulty has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Sometimes I wonder truely what people want, you all claim nothign should be easy, and ALL of you or the great majority of you run on a regular basis stuff unsync...call it an hypocrisie

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Maybe its cause I'm tired, or maybe its the way you typed it but I have no idea what you are trying to say lol