Why does Clemency get interrupted? And why does Sword/Shield Oath reset combo?

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Originally Posted by repoe

Because paladin wasnt developed to fluidly switch between stances.

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Because you say so? WAR did not even have two stances. Every WAR just dropped defiance back then (at least the ones that wanted to max DPS). We basically gave SE the idea to give WAR a DPS stance.

Long before HW people asked why the oaths are so clunky. It even became more of an issue when suddenly WAR got what people asked for PLD. On top of that, the new tank gets introduced with the exact same clumsyness?

I to this day can not find a reason for this decision. Why do you not want tanks with two stances use it to the max? One of the reasons WAR is so much fun.

I hope they change it for both PLD and DRK.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

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I remember after one patch some MNKs started complaining that DRGs were doing too much damage. Lol. Everyone told them to stfu.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

2.55->3.0 for dragoon because it all got fixed back in 2.4. Actually, Dragoon got a ton of tiny adjustments over the life of 2.0 - jump animation and cooldown used to be much, much longer.

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I remember, but I still wouldn't say that Dragoons were by any means broken before the adjustments.

Positional requirements are still in place for maximum combo potency, not much really changed for Drg's who were already maximizing their Dps. The only immediate benefit Drg's universally saw from that was the ability to re-apply Heavy Lance without having to re-position in the event a Flank hit was impossible. Quite frankly, if you learned how to use Drg before the change, it just felt like a Quality of Life adjustment that lowered the skill bar for new or lazy players. Seasoned Drg's were happy with it, obviously, but they still positioned to maximize Dps, so it wasn't huge or anything.

The magic defense adjustment was definitely a good thing though. Even back before Final Coil, the Magic dmg from Turns like T9 was a nightmare for Drg's, so it was a very welcomed change... That being said, I still wouldn't say that it was a make or break issue for Drg's. Healers certainly hated having to take extra special care of them, but their abysmal Magic def didn't make them unplayable. I don't think anyone was booting Drg's out of Raids because of their Defense.

You're right though. By the time 3.0 rolled around there wasn't really anything left to change. Jump animations still get debated a little (since Drg's can still eat the paste if they're not careful with their jumps), but I don't think anyone's dropping the job over it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Given that we have PLD at one end (2 GCDs, highest mana cost), Warrior at the other (no GCD loss, possible health loss and slower eHP increase), and DRK exactly in the middle of that 'ease of swapping' spectrum (1 GCD loss, moderate mana cost)...

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In reality, the PLD only loses time. MP is meaningless to PLD in the vast majority of situations where they'd even consider stance dancing. The MP a DRK spends always means lost damage, since excess MP can always be used to dump into DA + SE (or DA + DP if you've really got an excess of MP). So in practice, the PLD is losing 2x GCD worth of damage, while the DRK is losing 1 GCD and another ~85ish potency (75% of the difference between a DE and a DA + SE). I mean, DRK still has it better than the poor PLD at this point, but it's worth understanding.

The health that the WAR loses should be considered significant. But they also have, hands down, the best self healing among the 3 tanks, so it's sort of moo.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

I hope they change it for both PLD and DRK.

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Me too, it really feels much better with the WAR setup.

I can't speak for PLD cause they lose 2 whole GCDs for either stance but for DRK (and no DRK does not lose more from its stance dancing. We save a GCD and 1326 MP is very little for a DRK), Grit is treated more like an infinite Inner Beast that does no damage. When you consider the fact that Grit automatically reduces damage, and does not require healer intervention like Defiance (you don't take any less damage in Defiance) it kind of makes sense. I feel like DRK was designed with this in mind, using Grit as more of a cooldown than a stance. PLD does not have this design context however, so I have no clue what they were thinking there.

Incoming spike damage pld switches to shield oath, damage is mitigated immediate increase in effective health and effective healing.

Incoming spike damage war switches to defiance, dies as increase in effective health is not immediate.

pld uses a skill to activate his mitigation. Warrior needs to use a skill to benefit from his.

An easy fix for this would have a skill proc a chance to remove the cast time - Like blocking an attack, etc. It has high enough MP requirement that it couldn't be taken advantage of.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

An easy fix for this would have a skill proc a chance to remove the cast time - Like blocking an attack, etc. It has high enough MP requirement that it couldn't be taken advantage of.

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A proc means RNG, and we already have enough crybaby tanks pissing and moaning about RNG instead of rolling with the punches. I'm against anything that'll make the tanking community whinier. Its already at its whiny-ness cap.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Incoming spike damage pld switches to shield oath, damage is mitigated immediate increase in effective health and effective healing.

Incoming spike damage war switches to defiance, dies as increase in effective health is not immediate.

pld uses a skill to activate his mitigation. Warrior needs to use a skill to benefit from his.

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But a war switching to defiance to take spike damage is probably going to be using Inner Beast to mitigate that attack. In which case they'll be restoring some of that missing HP on their own.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

But a war switching to defiance to take spike damage is probably going to be using Inner Beast to mitigate that attack. In which case they'll be restoring some of that missing HP on their own.

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WHILE mitigating 20% damage AND hitting with a 300 potency attack.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Nothing would please me more though, than to be able to sit down with the dev team and ask them why WAR is exempt from so many of the rules DRK and PLD seem to have to follow

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Just a quick statement that many on gcd skills don't break combos. I wouldn't say it is a rule that war gets special treatment on.

My guesses to some of these are some of the advantages shield oath does bring to the table. For example, there is no CD (gcd of course) and the ehp increase occurs when the skill is used.

To that extent it makes sense why defiance is a bit different.
Defiance doesn't increase ehp on activation. To get any benefit from the activation a follow-up skill must be used, like IB, which is on gcd. Since a follow-up action is required to get any benefit, it makes sense to have defiance off gcd.

There is a CD on WAR stance dancing which requires war to commit to the stance change. PLDs can change whenever, but if they don't make up to a 3 gcd commitment, they take a small penalty i.e. breaking that commitment also breaks the combo.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

WHILE mitigating 20% damage AND hitting with a 300 potency attack.

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exactly warrior needs to use a skill to benefit

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

WHILE mitigating 20% damage AND hitting with a 300 potency attack.

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Yeah, by using another skill on top of Defiance, while not getting healed to full from it, and also losing 200 potency +5% damage +10% crit rate by using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Incoming spike damage pld switches to shield oath, damage is mitigated immediate increase in effective health and effective healing.

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This is not accurate. Increase in effective health... maybe (though not exactly. It's more like increase in Hp Mitigated. Effective Hp would also include expendable HP. A Pld gets 0 additional eHP from switching Oaths), but even if you consider Shield Oath a increase in effective health it is most certainly not an increase in effective healing.

Shield Oath does nothing to increase a Pld's Hp pool or increase the amount of Hp restored by a Healer. The potency of the healing they receive is not changed by Oaths (unlike Wars). They might take a shallower hit because of the Oath switch, but it is not easier for the Hp to get restored. In that Regard, Wars have an unquestionable advantage. They may have to use an additional skill to take full advantage of that eHp (in an nightmare world in which your healer completely ignores you), but even that is not an issue, because none of a War's Wrath/Abandon moves interrupt their primary combo, nor does switching stances. Switching is seamless.

In all honestly, there really is no excuse (except carelessness or laziness) for a War to switch stances and not have a CD at the ready for immediate use, especially with Infuriate at their disposal.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Yeah, by using another skill on top of Defiance, while not getting healed to full from it, and also losing 200 potency +5% damage +10% crit rate by using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.

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Yes, it is truly terrible that Warrior Tanks need to actually tank sometimes instead of pretending to be Dps. It's so sad for them. How very inconsiderate of the Dev team.

we will just have to wait till next expansion to see what they improve.

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Originally Posted by Februs

This is not accurate. Increase in effective health... maybe (though not exactly. It's more like increase in Hp Mitigated. Effective Hp would also include expendable HP. A Pld gets 0 additional eHP from switching Oaths), but even if you consider Shield Oath a increase in effective health it is most certainly not an increase in effective healing.

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You don't have a clue how tank stances or eHP works. Every bit of mitigation you get effectively increases your HP, whether it's 20% reduced damage from Rampart or 25% increased HP from Defiance. A PLD with 16k HP and Shield Oath effectively has 25% more HP: 20k eHP. And no, WAR doesn't have an easier time getting healed. Defiance only increases healing by 20% while HP is increased by 25%, so WARs actually recover LESS of their eHP from every single heal compared to PLD. And there's also the fact that abilities like Tetra and Lustrate aren't affected by Defiance at all.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Yes, it is truly terrible that Warrior Tanks need to actually tank sometimes instead of pretending to be Dps. It's so sad for them. How very inconsiderate of the Dev team.

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Where did I say I was complaining about tanking? I like tanking as WAR. I'm pointing out that swapping to Defiance has its own disadvantages, which many PLDs/DRKs don't seem to realise.

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Originally Posted by Februs

This is not accurate. Increase in effective health... maybe (though not exactly. It's more like increase in Hp Mitigated. Effective Hp would also include expendable HP. A Pld gets 0 additional eHP from switching Oaths), but even if you consider Shield Oath a increase in effective health it is most certainly not an increase in effective healing.

Shield Oath does nothing to increase a Pld's Hp pool or increase the amount of Hp restored by a Healer. The potency of the healing they receive is not changed by Oaths.

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it it would take 25,000 damage to kill a 20khp tank with shield oath increasing their effective health pool by 25%
while only requiring 20k in heals to return to full. 20k healing on a defiance warrior with the bonus from defiance would be 24k hp, 96% as effective as healing a pld.

Effective health
Effective healing

Are WAR mains really coming in here and saying they are harder to heal/take hits less efficiently than DRK/PLD?

Congratulations tank forums, I now have cancer.

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Originally Posted by Launched

You don't have a clue how tank stances or eHP works. Every bit of mitigation you get effectively increases your HP, whether it's 20% reduced damage from Rampart or 25% increased HP from Defiance. A PLD with 16k HP and Shield Oath effectively has 25% more HP: 20k eHP.

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I know how Tank Stances and eHp work just fine, thank you.

I never said that Hp mitigated was not included in the eHp of a tank. I merely distinguished between Hp mitigated vs. Total Hp, and stated that the Hp gained by Defiance is included in eHp, giving War’s the advantage.

Comparing stances (using your example), SwO provides 20% increase in eHp, resulting in an additional 3200 Hp on a 16k tank. Even if we’re assuming that the War has the same starting Hp (impossible unless under-geared, but whatever), Defiance (at 25%) provides 4000 eHp. This is not immediate, but is easily fixed by one cure II, especially with a 20% in healing. I’m assuming this discrepancy is why you chose to ignore ShO and compare Rampart, but we weren’t comparing def CD’s. We were comparing stances. If you have to bring in CD’s to compensate for a discrepancy, than that should have given you a hint right there that War’s Stance Dance is beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Launched

WAR doesn't have an easier time getting healed. Defiance only increases healing by 20% while HP is increased by 25%, so WARs actually recover LESS of their eHP from every single heal compared to PLD.

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Not sure where you’re getting this from either. It’s true that the higher Hp pool of a War means that the healer has to heal more to the War… but I never said they didn’t. What I said was that a War gets a 20% increase in healing and Pld’s do not. War’s might recover less of their total Hp, but they recover more Hp per heal. A 20% increase is a 20% increase. The maximum Hp does not make a difference to this, so I don’t know why you even bring it up. For every 1000 Hp a Pld gets back, a War gets 1250. That’s a faster healing rate. Saying otherwise is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Launched

And there's also the fact that abilities like Tetra and Lustrate aren't affected by Defiance at all.

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So what? You singled out two moves that have such a high healing potency it makes no difference (which is precisely why they are unaffected) unless we’re factoring in over-healed values. I guess we could calculate how much hate a healer can steal from a tank, but that’s pretty irrelevant to Tank stances.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Where did I say I was complaining about tanking? I like tanking as WAR. I'm pointing out that swapping to Defiance has its own disadvantages, which many PLDs/DRKs don't seem to realise.

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Good for you... Where did I say you were complaining? Seems to me like I never once accused you of complaining. If anything, I was acknowledging (albeit sarcastically), that you were pointing out a fairly piss-poor disadvantage of Stance Swapping as War.

The sarcasm only comes in because, these days, ever single War who is defending the pedestal they stand on cites lowering their Dps as some kind of disadvantage to actually being in their Tank stance. Strictly speaking, you’re not wrong. It is a disadvantage, but compared to Drk’s and Pld’s (to whom we were comparing) it’s a pretty limp disadvantage (especially to Pld’s who suffer poor Dps regardless of which stance they are in).

Sorry Februs that isnt how it works

Pld - 1000 damage hit - 800 damage taken - 800 heal required
War - 1000 damage taken - healed by 960 (800×1.20)

War is 40 HP less than the PLD given equal standings.

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Originally Posted by Februs

confused babbling

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No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 2520%reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

More HP per heal is completely irrelevant, because WAR is recovering a lower percentage of its eHP on every heal compared to a PLD. A 2k Cure on a 16k PLD is 12.5% of the PLD's HP. A 2k Cure on a 20k WAR gets buffed to 2.4k, which is only 12%. That's a lower heal for the WAR. A 4k Lustrate on that PLD is 25% of its HP, on WAR it doesn't get buffed so it's 4k out of 20k: 20%. That's a pretty significant difference in healing. The number you see on the screen doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is eHP after all your defensive buffs, and it's a fact that WAR receives less healing compared to their eHP than PLD does.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

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Um....isn't Shield Oath a 20% reduction in damage, not 25%.

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Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity,
while lowering damage dealt by 20%.
Increases accuracy by 5%.
Cannot be used with Sword Oath.
Effect ends upon reuse.

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Your math that followed may need adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Februs

IComparing stances (using your example), SwO provides 20% increase in eHp, resulting in an additional 3200 Hp on a 16k tank. Even if we’re assuming that the War has the same starting Hp (impossible unless under-geared, but whatever), Defiance (at 25%) provides 4000 eHp. This is not immediate, but is easily fixed by one cure II, especially with a 20% in healing. I’m assuming this discrepancy is why you chose to ignore ShO and compare Rampart, but we weren’t comparing def CD’s. We were comparing stances. If you have to bring in CD’s to compensate for a discrepancy, than that should have given you a hint right there that War’s Stance Dance is beneficial.

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No, he was right.

effective health
You're a WAR, you have 16k base HP, turn on Defiance and the healer tops you off. Defiance gives you 25% more HP so you now have 16k x 1.25 = 20k HP. You get hit with a 20k attack, and you just barely die. 20k eHP, right? Ok, I know you've got that (you even said so above).

You're a PLD, you've got 16k HP and ShO on. You get hit by an attack for 20k. That 20k gets reduced by ShO, so 20k x 0.8 = 16k. So you just barely die. It's exactly the same as the warrior above. You die after exactly 20k worth of incoming damage (before it's reduced by ShO). That's what eHP is, how much damage you take before you die. The tricky thing about mitigation when calculating eHP is that it works in reverse. Here's the formula from above:

eHP x mitigation = base HP

but we want to know how to calculate eHP from base HP, so we convert it to:

eHP = base HP / mitigation

or

eHP = base HP x 1/mitigation

so from 16k base HP, to get the eHP you either divide that 16k by the 0.8 (shield oath mitigation) or you multiply it by the inverse of the mitigation. In this case 1/0.8 is 1.25. Which means that 20% mitigation results in a 25% increase in eHP.

effective healing

basically this:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Sorry Februs that isnt how it works

Pld - 1000 damage hit - 800 damage taken - 800 heal required
War - 1000 damage taken - healed by 960 (800×1.20)

War is 40 HP less than the PLD given equal standings.

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If you receive, as a PLD with ShO up, a 1000 hp hit, you only actually take 800 hp of damage. And thus, you only need 800 hp of heals to recover completely from that original 1000 hp hit. So while the healer is actually healing you for 800 hp. You are effectively recovering from 1000 hp damage taken.

The math basically ends up the same.

effective healing coefficient = 1.0 / mitigation

So for ShO, again it's 1.0 / 0.8 = 1.25. Thus ShO provides a 25% boost to effective healing.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um....isn't Shield Oath a 20% reduction in damage, not 25%.
Your math that followed may need adjustment.

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20% damage reduction = 25% increased HP.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

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You explicitly say Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which is not true. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or what.

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Originally Posted by Ironos

You explicitly say Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which is not true. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or what.

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Oops. Should be 20% for Shield Oath.

I know you are comparing Lustrate and Trans as well, but also consider stoneskin and Aldo because they stack with Oath as well as eHP giving PLD 5% stronger shielding. Which is pretty decent if you Aldo off a Defiance War and Deployment Tactics to a ShOath PLD.
It isnt just those healing "abilities" that are better for PLD but most spells as well.

Everyone else has echoed my sentiments pretty accurately.

I really wish Clemency was oGCD and instant cast. People would actually use it, and it might actually make a difference in some clutch situations. Keep the big mana cost and give it a long-ish cooldown so people couldn't abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 2520%reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

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And now your original comment makes much more sense.

I will have to concede that I misunderstood your original post and was incorrect. When you said that it was a "20% reduced dmg from rampart," I mistakenly assumed you had all your numbers wrong. Worse yet, when I worked out the mitigation for ShO I made the mistake of applying ShO's mitigation directly to the Pld health pool instead of incoming dmg. This was extra stupid of me, since I myself said I was distinguishing between mitigated dmg and Hp gained. This was my mistake. You are correct.

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Originally Posted by Launched

More HP per heal is completely irrelevant

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I already agreed with you in my previous post that War's receive less Hp per heal, despite healing at a faster rate. I did not argue against the fact that Pld's receive greater returns from heals in regards to their eHp (though I admit that I was undervaluing that amount). However, I still don't think that means that the amount of Hp restored is in any way irrelevant. To a healer, it's anything but irrelevant. Pld's passive Oath mitigation still provides an advantage so far as they are actually mitigating dmg, but (and I may be wrong on this so feel free to correct me) shouldn't War's be receiving their healing bonus regardless of continued mitigation (say downtime during cast bars, jumps, or Cooldown phases etc). Not to mention the fact that War's self-healing should more than compensate for any advantage ShO gives to effective healing of eHp ... or am I incorrect on that one as well?

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Originally Posted by Februs

Healing WAR vs PLD

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There was actually a thread in the Healer Forum before Heavensward hit where everyone was discussing which of the two tank classes they like to heal more. Most people said PLD because of the impact healing seems to have on their HP bar vs. a WAR's. No body really said they disliked healing WARs but that the larger HP pool made is appear that they needed to be healed more often.

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Originally Posted by Launched

20% damage reduction = 25% increased HP.

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I understand your point, it depends on which end of the calculation you are looking at it from.

However, I was specifically replying to this

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Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage

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I get your point about the impact of a 20% reduction of incoming damage. I see your reply a few posts after my original with a correction, that's all I was after.

I have to admit however that on first glance when I saw Shield oath as a 25% reduction in damage equaling a 25% increase in eHP, I hadn't done the math, I was simply reacting to the %.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

There was actually a thread in the Healer Forum before Heavensward hit where everyone was discussing which of the two tank classes they like to heal more. Most people said PLD because of the impact healing seems to have on their HP bar vs. a WAR's. No body really said they disliked healing WARs but that the larger HP pool made is appear that they needed to be healed more often.

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I only recently started healing. I agree with this, but I'm actually a little torn on it. In a lot of ways, Pld's seem much easier to heal, but after a Tank buster or during a quite spell in a boss fight watching a War's Hp bar get a sudden jump is ... relaxing, I guess. I feel less panicked about their Hp bar because it shoots back up quickly. I also find I have to heal them less than Pld's because, despite their higher Hp bar, they self-heal so efficiently that I'm not always needed.

I guess the difference is that Pld's feel like they need a constant, but very steady, rate of healing. Whereas Wars need a bunch of healing ... and then you can take a break whenever they use Equilibrium or you see Bloodbath in their hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Because SE hates you. That simple.

Seriously though, you're not wrong. Clemency isn't unusable or anything. It's great for AoE dmg, but not as useful as it could be. AT THE VERY LEAST, they should give Pld's a way of sure-casting it (Additional effect of Tempered Will. You know, that move that Pld's never use and often forget they even have... Just a thought).

Stance dancing should also be adjusted, if only for the current Dps meta. Right now, anytime a Pld has to contribute to a Dps check (say...Sacred Cross... or even the Sword Oath Knight in Thor EX) they are made even less effective because of combo canceling. Swapping to Sword Oath wastes precious time, and not being able to swap back on the fly (because no Pld in their right mind wants to be in SwO when a buffed Holy Blade dance goes off) restricts them to basically clenching their butt cheeks and hoping for the best.

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HG buffed holy blade dance wut

Honestly I've found Sentinel + Halone to be more than enough to handle it as long as no one gives them Battle Fever. Even with that just tossing in a Foresight or something works.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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Yeah. It's more of a mentality thing. Like "he has 12k HP and my Cure will only him 1.6k. Ahhh! He has so much HP, my healing will be so weak on him!" with a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Honestly I've found Sentinel + Halone to be more than enough to handle it as long as no one gives them Battle Fever. Even with that just tossing in a Foresight or something works.

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Agreed. Unless they have battle fever or my healers are asleep and my Hp is already dangerously low, I find using HG on a Holy Bladedance is a wasted buff that I could spend in a later phase when it's more convenient. Sentinel does the job just fine, especially if the healer or I threw on an extra Stoneskin for good measure. Problem solved. The only time I've had to waste a HG here is if the Dps are getting themselves killed and the healer's attention is divided.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

WHILE mitigating 20% damage AND hitting with a 300 potency attack.

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Or simply hit Holmgang and take it to the face like a man(it also has same recast as sentinel so it is kinda "spammabe" when it comes to godmode CD's)and use those stacks on FC instead. Also is there even warriors out there that uses loldefiance for anything else except enabling the use of IB anymore? most just sits in deliverance and swaps defiance only for IB and after that back to deliverance pewpew.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Agreed. Unless they have battle fever or my healers are asleep and my Hp is already dangerously low, I find using HG on a Holy Bladedance is a wasted buff that I could spend in a later phase when it's more convenient. Sentinel does the job just fine, especially if the healer or I threw on an extra Stoneskin for good measure. Problem solved. The only time I've had to waste a HG here is if the Dps are getting themselves killed and the healer's attention is divided.

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I meant using HG in sword oath vs the sword knight.
Killing that knight before it swaps, and you won't need any more CDs