Can future relic weapons have special abilities?

I just wanna see what the quest and weapon stats are..and find out how the quest will work..if it will be like the last one or nah.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

This is what happened in XI and lasted the life of the game as I knew it. If you were a paladin you had to have Aegis (preferred) or Ochain else you were not a real tank. Ranger or samurai had to have a relic bow or you were not needed. Weapons that increased weapon skill damage or gave afterglow/math, extra attacks, or ignored defense and damage reduction. The same with gear that gave boosts to abilities. Thief's with Treaure hunter +8 or +9 for example. If you had anything below a certain value meant less of a change for that boss drop. Especially if you were starting or in the middle of a long 2 years of Dynamis farming. Let alone to get into Xarcabard and the Promathian areas.

A lot of parties shells and Pug's doing endgame, main story, or content would require a status quo to a job and if you didn't meet it you were kicked or denied.

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it happened in other mmorpgs , WoW with Cloak / Ring legendary (or Tier sets) , Eq2 with epic weapons (that provided a new skill to every class) , and the list goes on and on...

isnt about needing the item to enter content....is "forcing" ppl to endure the relic grind or bust... even for alts u rarely play

i would love to see more interesting stats , cool effects , enhancing skills and what not...but is a pain in the rear to balance , and it force the playerbase to get it,plus what happens when new weapons are released next expansion? what happens to ppl that doesnt want to grind the relic?

this game needs ways to enhance the gameplay after hitting max lvl? yeah... but how? Merits? AA like eq ? in the end is all a grind that once u do it is over....

the gear system is boring we all agree on that , but if we start tossing "enhanced jump"+1 , enhanced "cure II" and what not is going to be a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

This is what happened in XI and lasted the life of the game as I knew it. If you were a paladin you had to have Aegis (preferred) or Ochain else you were not a real tank. Ranger or samurai had to have a relic bow or you were not needed. Weapons that increased weapon skill damage or gave afterglow/math, extra attacks, or ignored defense and damage reduction. The same with gear that gave boosts to abilities. Thief's with Treaure hunter +8 or +9 for example. If you had anything below a certain value meant less of a change for that boss drop. Especially if you were starting or in the middle of a long 2 years of Dynamis farming. Let alone to get into Xarcabard and the Promathian areas.

A lot of parties shells and Pug's doing endgame, main story, or content would require a status quo to a job and if you didn't meet it you were kicked or denied.

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Wut? Were we playing the same game? I mean I played with groups who had decent gear..no relics or over the top stuff and we cleared everything in XI just fine lol. Maybe you were playing with not..nice people? Then again depending on the time you are talking about you could be right. AFTER Abyssea yes, you are right..but before, imho, when FFXI was good..no, this was not true. Sure, it would help big time and it would be amazing for someone to have relic, etc but if they didn't stuff was def still possible.

Anyway, Yoshida said in interviews before the expansion that he wanted to introduce our 1.x stats back, albeit slowly and carefully to not force cookie cutter stuff, but yea..still waiting here ^^; Either way, this game direly needs something more then these same boring stats we've had since 2.0. Shoot, 1.x had better stats! And there wasn't class stacking or gear stacking in 1.x...people had choices. My BLM had many different materia melded sets for diff dungeons/primals and so forth.

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Originally Posted by aurace1095

I frequently see the argument that any special stats would immediately become mandatory, and people would be discriminated for not having them. Yet, there are plenty of opportunities for this to happen already in the game, and it doesn't. Do you ever see a farm party in PF that requires A4S weapons, or even Thordan EX weapons? Drops from those two events give a substantial stat increase, and excluding people without them would speed up your runs. But it doesn't happen. Why would adding new and interesting stats (to either all gear or only rare / hard to get gear) suddenly cause this to start happening?

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What PF's are you seeing that this isn't happening? This has been a thing since first coil.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I feel iL is a crutch and sometimes the better numbers aren't always on the highest iL equipment.

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Wrong. Higher ilvl weapons always have higher base damage and primary stat which absolutely eclipse every secondary stat that it isn't worth considering anything else with a lower ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Azper

Because at that point they become required and you'll see a spike in people discriminating against non-relic holders for raids, farm parties, and possibly any battle related content. Don't get me wrong, I'd like it, too. But given the community's track record, I can see the potential for it to go horribly, horribly wrong.

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Isn't easier to just not raid with those people and find the group you associate with the most who don't mind how you play....like everyone else?

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

What PF's are you seeing that this isn't happening? This has been a thing since first coil.

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Really? On Balmung I've never seen a PF require the highest tier weapon to do anything. People may ask for you to have cleared something already, but that's more about making sure they know what to do, not discriminating because they don't have a certain piece of gear. The only gear 'discrimination' I can think of is iLVL, and if you're counting that, why even argue against adding gear with new stats to the game on the basis that it would cause something to happen that you think is already happening?

Because the difference between a 210 Eso and 210 Savage weapon isn't remotely as large as.. let's say, a 210 relic with Jump Recast -5 seconds.

That 5 second reduction ends up being roughly 45,000 additional damage over the course of a typical raid boss. Or, 71-75 DPS from a secondary stat. And at the very least, as far as jump goes, it's a more substantial increase than WD+2 is.

EDIT: I should point out that I DO want more complex/interesting abilities on equipment. But specifically on all equipment so actual options exist and no one has to grind out a relic if they're not into the suff usually slapped onto a relic grind in this game.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Because the difference between a 210 Eso and 210 Savage weapon isn't remotely as large as.. let's say, a 210 relic with Jump Recast -5 seconds.

That 5 second reduction ends up being roughly 45,000 additional damage over the course of a typical raid boss. Or, 71-75 DPS from a secondary stat. And at the very least, as far as jump goes, it's a more substantial increase than WD+2 is.

EDIT: I should point out that I DO want more complex/interesting abilities on equipment. But specifically on all equipment so actual options exist and no one has to grind out a relic if they're not into the suff usually slapped onto a relic grind in this game.

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I do agree that *all* equipment should have complex and interesting stats, not just relics. However, there's nothing wrong with, say, having the non-relic have Jump Recast -3/4 seconds, and the relic (or equivalent raid version) have Jump Recast -5. Better gear, especially when it's difficult to obtain, should have better stats.

Except.. relics are the easiest high tier weapons to obtain? Time consuming, yeah but infinitely easier than being capable of farming things like T5/9/13 when they were relevant or A4S as of now.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Except.. relics are the easiest high tier weapons to obtain? Time consuming, yeah but infinitely easier than being capable of farming things like T5/9/13 when they were relevant or A4S as of now.

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Well, in 2.x relics ended up being better than the last tier of raid weapons. Personally, I think the raid gear should have the better stats, but that's a completely different discussion. I'm just saying that all gear should have unique / complex stats, with harder to obtain stuff such as relic weapons or raid weapons having better stats. It still won't lead to gear discrimination, because going back to my original point, gear is already set up with some gear being better, having better stats, and people without specific pieces of that gear aren't discriminated against. Adding unique stats will not change that.

I would like to see something like this added in the future as well. I know this subject is one that I have seen requested repeatedly over the years.

On a side note, I do like how WoW is going to handle the artifact weapons for their new expansion, which is basically the same thing as our relic weapons.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Except.. relics are the easiest high tier weapons to obtain? Time consuming, yeah but infinitely easier than being capable of farming things like T5/9/13 when they were relevant or A4S as of now.

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I wouldn't call the time you had to put into a relic easy, and I certainly wouldn't be against them making you put more time into it (if the time is compensated w/something unique or cool about them other than their look). Hopefully with something more entertaining than doing the same primal fight 2000 times for lights, but that's besides the point. The time I put into the Relic probably outweighed my time in 5/9/13 combined, not looking forward to doing more content like that in all honesty.

The only thing hard with raid weapons was the RNG involved in getting them, with the totems/tokens system that's all but gone.

For me the solution is rather simple and can easily be implemented with current game mechanics.

First of all concerning weapons, all top weapons from each tier, Relic/Artifact/Raid will have a special materia slot attached to them in which you will be able to add a selection of weapon specific materia that add special abilities. For example some special weapon abilities i can think about are, dmg procs, status effect procs, utility procs. For example you can have a Paladin have a dmg proc on his weapon (Holy Strike with 5% chance that does 2-3k dmg) etc, or a Bard that has Paralyze effect on his bow with 5% chance and for utility you can lower the cd of certain skills for each class. Special Materia Augmented weapons will have a specific glow depending on the materia used.

Secondly about armor, you can utilize a similar system as weapons for top tier armor sets, you can even go as far as add materia set bonus combinations. For example if u slot specific materia to each armor piece you will unlock some hidden bonus.

Lastly about the acquisition of the special materia, what you can do is have them be end-game oriented but not make them impossible for casuals to get, otherwise the system won't be used by anyone but a small minority. Token exchange system would work wonders here for excess Law/Esos.

All in all i believe if a system similar to this would be implemented it will add some kind of endgame customization (that is not just cosmetic) to at least differentiate players slightly from each other.

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Originally Posted by DukeGr

For me the solution is rather simple and can easily be implemented with current game mechanics.

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This does sound like a great solution. Its a great shame that the Materia system hasn't been more fully developed. This would kill two birds with one stone.

I'd rather them have tier sets like in WoW.

Wear all the pieces of a set (like the full savage alexander set or the full esoteric set) and you get a perk to your job. For example, extra crit chance for scholar, or a chance for Ruin III to fire twice for summoner, just as some general examples of what they could do.

This "mandatory" nonsense really needs to stop.
Relics Nexus and Zetas were, at their time, THE absolute BiS weapon for every job. If people were really denied content because they weren't "optimal", anyone without a perfect Relic would have been excluded from hard content already.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I'd rather them have tier sets like in WoW.

Wear all the pieces of a set (like the full savage alexander set or the full esoteric set) and you get a perk to your job. For example, extra crit chance for scholar, or a chance for Ruin III to fire twice for summoner, just as some general examples of what they could do.

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Why should you be limited by a set in terms of how you want your gear to be augmented? By utilizing the materia system you can add your own special stuff wherever you want with whatever combo/options you want, the whole point here is to add some personalization not just another BiS Weapon/Set.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This "mandatory" nonsense really needs to stop.
Relics Nexus and Zetas were, at their time, THE absolute BiS weapon for every job. If people were really denied content because they weren't "optimal", anyone without a perfect Relic would have been excluded from hard content already.

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Well, substats were a reasonably minor difference compared to something like item level(weapon damage), which is why no one cared what substats your i135 weapon had, so long as it was, y'know, an i135 one.

Adding additional or unique effects would probably amount to much more of a difference in DPS/HPS/mitigation unless the effects are something so minor as to be negligible anyway...in which case that would kind of defeat the purpose of what people are asking for in this thread.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Well, substats were a reasonably minor difference compared to something like item level(weapon damage), which is why no one cared what substats your i135 weapon had, so long as it was, y'know, an i135 one.

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Were you kicked out of Final Coil because you only had an i110 or 120 weapon ?

Were tanks kicked out because they chose to spend their bonus stats on STR when people thought VIT was better, or the opposite ?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Well, substats were a reasonably minor difference compared to something like item level(weapon damage), which is why no one cared what substats your i135 weapon had, so long as it was, y'know, an i135 one.

Adding additional or unique effects would probably amount to much more of a difference in DPS/HPS/mitigation unless the effects are something so minor as to be negligible anyway...in which case that would kind of defeat the purpose of what people are asking for in this thread.

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And despite that, no one blocked you from content if you had a 120 weapon instead of a 135 weapon. At least, I know I never had anyone block me from entering their party for that reason.

Additional effects would naturally have to be balanced. I see this really as no different than having more than 1 job. You could say one is the 'best' and lock out all others, or you can see what they each bring to the table and let people play what they want. I find most people say 'play what you find the most fun', and I'd assume would go for fun stats too.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

And despite that, no one blocked you from content if you had a 120 weapon instead of a 135 weapon. At least, I know I never had anyone block me from entering their party for that reason.

Additional effects would naturally have to be balanced. I see this really as no different than having more than 1 job. You could say one is the 'best' and lock out all others, or you can see what they each bring to the table and let people play what they want. I find most people say 'play what you find the most fun', and I'd assume would go for fun stats too.

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If you saw my post on page 1, you'll actually see that I'm in support of this idea. I was simply pointing out that the argument of, "people weren't excluded for having crappy substats on their relic" is flawed because additional effects would provide a more significant boost than substats, and that if they didn't, they might as well not be added anyway.

I can't really predict if people would be exclusionary over this or not. I'm in favor of it simply because we're hurting for gameplay and gear customization in this game badly.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If you saw my post on page 1, you'll actually see that I'm in support of this idea.

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Ah cool, yes I didn't see (or remember) that.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I was simply pointing out that the argument of, "people weren't excluded for having crappy substats on their relic" is flawed because additional effects would provide a more significant boost than substats, and that if they didn't, they might as well not be added anyway.

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Sort of true, I thought he meant people weren't excluded for not having a relic, not not having appropriate sub-stats. I also disagree that the substats need to be so substantial that they keep you out of a party, but so insignificant that they are not approrpiate. I feel there is a balance. I also feel that as people didn't discriminate based on 15 ilvl weapon difference, they may not discriminate based on your preferred choice.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I can't really predict if people would be exclusionary over this or not. I'm in favor of it simply because we're hurting for gameplay and gear customization in this game badly.

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Couldn't agree more.

I feel that the evidence currently sits away from the exclusionary argument, as being excluded from things is currently pretty rare. Whether you're not the optimal job, or don't have the highest gear level or BiS choices, you're still welcome in most PF's. Yes there are some people who are jerks out there, but they are few and far between, and I don't think the entire game should be designed around them.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Were you kicked out of Final Coil because you only had an i110 or 120 weapon ?

Were tanks kicked out because they chose to spend their bonus stats on STR when people thought VIT was better, or the opposite ?

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Yes, actually. After a certain point, having a 110 was inexcusable. There was another group to take them sure, but that doesn't mean a kick didn't happen at some point.

And the suggested -5 seconds off a recast timer makes a really big difference compared to an extra 16 Critical Hit.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Yes, actually. After a certain point, having a 110 was inexcusable.

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That point being :

• Having already beaten T11
• Having the weekly Crystal Quest available, around 3 months after the release of Final Coil

And still, at that point, you'd only end with, at best, and i130 weapon, clearly weaker than the best weapon you could have.
So no, people were not as massively kicked for not being "optimal" as Yoshi-P makes it sound.

Besides, even if it isn't the same game, this community take its roots in FFXI, where optimization is much more important...yet there was no massive kick either.

I'd love to see special stats on relics/gear, but I'd settle for the ability to change secondaries on relics wherever for now. It's not much, but it would definitely allow for some more variation in gear choice.

Honestly the boring itemisation just comes down to laziness on the part of the devs. They could give us more interesting stats to play with, including unique effects similar to what FFXI had, but they won't because it takes more work to balance.

It's disappointing as FFXIV's character customisation options (in terms of build) are basically non-existent. For all the depth the game has due to the ability to switch jobs, it loses it all when you realise that everyone playing a given job is likely playing with identical stats.

We desperately need some more interesting equipment that makes upgrades worth more than just a new glmaour skin and a few boosted numbers. We could also do with FFXI's merit point system to allow us to further develop our characters.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That point being :

• Having already beaten T11
• Having the weekly Crystal Quest available, around 3 months after the release of Final Coil

And still, at that point, you'd only end with, at best, and i130 weapon, clearly weaker than the best weapon you could have.
So no, people were not as massively kicked for not being "optimal" as Yoshi-P makes it sound.

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The difference between a 130 and a 135 weapon is quite a bit weaker than the current enhancement example people have been giving out. And you're thinking of the past raid tier which wasn't nearly as strict on skill and gear levels. Particularly the last half where i205+ groups can struggle to meet DPS checks. I can guarantee any DPS trying to go into A3S with a Hive weapon instead of an Eso is going to be booted immediately. And I wouldn't be surprised if PUG attempts aren't going to be requiring Thordan Weapons soon. If they don't already.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Besides, even if it isn't the same game, this community take its roots in FFXI, where optimization is much more important...yet there was no massive kick either.

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Did we play the same game? Let's not even mention gear, people were refused because of their job choice. The elitist nature of XI was extreme. And it's even worse now because REM weapons are vastly easier (they still take months of dedicated effort) to obtain that in more than a few cases, they're considered required equipment for that job to be functional.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Did we play the same game? Let's not even mention gear, people were refused because of their job choice.

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Yes, I think we did.
But I didn't talk about jobs, but gear. And people weren't rejected because they refused to use windower to switch 12 pieces of gear in each macro.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Yes, actually. After a certain point, having a 110 was inexcusable.

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At a certain point yes, but this is true of any gear, in any game, if there is forward progression, regardless of how the stats for the game are designed. Eventually things get replaced and its no longer feasible to keep using them for late game content. It's true now and it will keep being true if special abilities/stats were added to gear.