A3S nerfs incoming

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

At the same time, some people don't want A3s to be kicking their ass for 3+ months, esp when it's the only (current) raid content we have, the step behind that being alexander normal (which is unfortunately Dfable and doesn't have that long of a shelf life)

---

The solution isn't to nerf existing content, but to add additional raids that are not quite as punishing. Say they do nerf A3 and people start clearing it at an equivalent rate to Thordan EX or perhaps faster. We're right back to where we started: nothing new left to do until the next patch. Not all content needs to be cleared by everyone. If some people don't want to struggle with A3, then don't play it.

Now if they tweaked A3 to be better mechanically or did nerf it with the intent of releasing a new wall (something Mr. Happy suggested), I wouldn't mind so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

Thordan nerf...it just came out why would they nerf it already. Bit early to judge clear rates. "quare Enix is likely to continue the Void Ark saga with the new raid and carry on the story of the Sky Pirates, potentially giving players Sky Pirate weapons at i205". Never has a 24-man raid given weapons. Wouldnt trust this post even in the slightest. Clearly doesnt know what hes talking about.

---

I think he misunderstand something.
What Yoshida said (in another interview) was that the time for eso weapon upgrade item from Void Ark depend of how many people cleared Thordan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

..If some people don't want to struggle with A3, then don't play it.

---

That's sort of the problem with how they handled the current raiding tier. If people don't want to struggle with A3, there's no other alternative raiding scene to bide them over until the patch. They should add tiers of raid that are "not quite as punishing" as you said, but the only tier that honestly hits the mark for the majority people are the primals, which are incredibly far and few inbetween.

And even if they nerf old content, they're not "back to where they started" if it's not current content, they'd nerf it right before or as the new tier opens up. Clearing doesn't necessary mean they're done with the content since they'd still farm it to fully slot their jobs, compared ot the alternative of wiping on it with little to no progression and leading to burn out (which is currently happening)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Let me know how that worked out with Coil savage and the original Steps of Faith.

---

Steps of Faith gated the story - so face roll mode is kinda assumed. However *SAVAGE* is not required for story at all.

Read my previous clarification.

But hey there is alex normal if savage is too hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The other end of the spectrum is that the (only) content available is too excessively hard that people don't want to attempt it for various reasons (burn out being the primary one). I know this is the case for A3s on my server and at least 4 of the members we had to go through.

When a nerf goes out, it's usually in the form of a content patch (or mid patch which adds a new tier afterwards) that comes with other things.

---

No particular disagreements here. Like we both said, it would be more timely if the nerf happened alongside some new alex content, but according to the patch deployment schedule, we aren't due a new alex for some time. So true though, a3s is quite the rude awakening compared to a1s and a2s which I see many pugs beat without too much trouble (despite it being tough to do with strangers). I have seen many statics of friends break over a3s which is new to me because I can't remember any particular turn in coil doing that to people.

I agree, nerfs usually accompany new content patches but if we are seeing some nerfs next patch, I think the only new content is the relic quest. If there is some new raid or primal I know nothing about it.

the problem as i see it is that in coil minor mistakes could be recovered from,
People could see clear progression being made easily, doing mechanics felt fun to do, experiencing the story itself was a driving force
It was well made and groups sticking together and pushing through it is a testament to that

alexander savage on the other hand(even the first 2 floors before people were able to outgear it from the newer content)
one person making one mistake completely kills the attempt, everyone had to be near flawless with dps so mechanics just introduce stress, the story in normal was trash and the story in savage is non-existent.
When the raiding environment changes from gathering together a group of friends to overcome challenges to having to weed out people and basically force a group who only have a professional relationship in something meant as entertainment, It's being done very very wrong

I have never in my life seen so many raid groups break apart and so many people quit raiding and even quit the game because they feel the raiding is just plain not fun


Of course I've also been playing MMO's so long that I can clearly remember when enrage timers were a very soft thing only put in place to prevent goofy tactics like kiting a boss through an entire zone while a single archer plunks away for an hour and a half.
The way they've transitioned into a hard time limit on every single encounter just seems like the laziest design choice possible

Even wildstar, the game advertised towards the 1% of the 1% super hardcore, didn't have stupidly tight enrage timers on bosses if they even had them at all

I actually think it isn't too difficult to nerf A3S without it losing its charm. Why not add 1-2 seconds extra to perform mechanics like Digititis, Tethers and Ferro? This would vastly reduce the difficulty and may actually allow people with mediocre ping to clear. The excessively tight timings on those abilities I find are the main culprits. The DPS check and P3 coordination checks can be overcome with more experience.

god ... just why has everything to be nerfed ... just let it be like it is now ... its >>savage<< after all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Sounds like most journalism these days.

---

I dont count people that write 'blogs' are journalists; too many idiots that call themselves journalists because they publish their opinion on the internet.

Oh, maybe I'm a journalist now. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The solution isn't to nerf existing content, but to add additional raids that are not quite as punishing.

---

No, it's not. This game doesn't have the playerbase like WoW has and in my opinion WoW's four difficulties are just too much.

Three bosses every 6 months does not make a raiding game and it never has been a raiding game it's just one of the avenues.

If people can't do savage as it is then those people are not hardcore raiders, 'simples'. The only viable way if SE want more people to raid savage is to make it a little easier, maybe to the level coil was before the nerfs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

But hey there is alex normal if savage is too hard.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Not all content needs to be cleared by everyone.

---

While true there has to be a certain amount of people to make it worth dev time. If SE nerf it then it's clearly not in their opinion.

Why to bother beating thordan for the stupid gear check if you need to learn the mechanic patterns in savage anyway?
You do not learn anything from thordan that can help in AS4, you just get a better weapon for the gearcheck in there...
Most players i know are upgrading their weekly eso while throwing their heads against the savage mechanics to learn them, even knowing they dont have the gear to beat it...

Alex savage was very bad for the community, i have never seen so many hatred just because DPS, not even coil was ever that bad.
Square Enix have to stop with the lockouts, it does not make any sense that players are not allowed to help others once cleared...
It is good that they try to stop winselling, but those restrictions are hitting the weak and not the selling players!

Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

(..) I have never in my life seen so many raid groups break apart and so many people quit raiding and even quit the game because they feel the raiding is just plain not fun

Of course I've also been playing MMO's so long that I can clearly remember when enrage timers were a very soft thing only put in place to prevent goofy tactics like kiting a boss through an entire zone while a single archer plunks away for an hour and a half.
The way they've transitioned into a hard time limit on every single encounter just seems like the laziest design choice possible

Even wildstar, the game advertised towards the 1% of the 1% super hardcore, didn't have stupidly tight enrage timers on bosses if they even had them at all

---

^this
The hardest content does not come from making tight timers or enrage the whole fight and let everyone preform "perfect" to unforgiving mechanics, its the "challenge" that attracts players and not the "impossibility"...
To overcome the challenge is fun and not to try something impossible (impossible does not mean unbeatable)... Climbing a wall is fun, not breaking through it with your head...

It's so cute how people keep whining about difficulty and are yet unwilling to improve... Jeessus, this game seriously has the baddest players I've ever seen. Ideology seems to be; " I want everything but I don't wanna work for it". Dem scrubs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iamsomeone

It's so cute how people keep whining about difficulty and are yet unwilling to improve... Jeessus, this game seriously has the baddest players I've ever seen. Ideology seems to be; " I want everything but I don't wanna work for it". Dem scrubs.

---

and unfortunately thats how its going to stay. Will be really stupid if they nerf Thordan in 3.15, only came out like yesterday jees. I can understand Alexander getting a nerf cause its crazy hard and making people quit. Made me quit raiding not cause of difficulty but going from coils with amazing story, great bosses, great mechanics etc. To Alexander where its really just DPS checks, with the same grey metal look to all bosses its so boring compared to Coils and just does not excite me into want to raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iamsomeone

Ideology seems to be; " I want everything but I don't wanna work for it".

---

Which is why I always say: Put "everything" into the cash shop. Progression shouldn't be affordable by people who don't work at least eight hours a day. You'll be much prouder of your new chestplate if you worked overtime for three weeks to be able to get it, too!

Or are you seriously suggesting people should instead put their physical and mental ressources into non-productive activities like video games? No, that's inefficient, you're being an economical scrub if you do. Those are only for chilling out "after" work.

*rolleyes*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

Why to bother beating thordan for the stupid gear check if you need to learn the mechanic patterns in savage anyway?
You do not learn anything from thordan that can help in AS4, you just get a better weapon for the gearcheck in there...
Most players i know are upgrading their weekly eso while throwing their heads against the savage mechanics to learn them, even knowing they dont have the gear to beat it...

Alex savage was very bad for the community, i have never seen so many hatred just because DPS, not even coil was ever that bad.
Square Enix have to stop with the lockouts, it does not make any sense that players are not allowed to help others once cleared...
It is good that they try to stop winselling, but those restrictions are hitting the weak and not the selling players!

---

There's nothing stopping players from going back and helping their friends. Are we even playing the same thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

Edit:

^this
The hardest content does not come from making tight timers or enrage the whole fight and let everyone preform "perfect" to unforgiving mechanics, its the "challenge" that attracts players and not the "impossibility"...
To overcome the challenge is fun and not to try something impossible (impossible does not mean unbeatable)... Climbing a wall is fun, not breaking through it with your head...

---

But have already beat it 4 months ago with a lot less gear... How exactly is this impossible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iamsomeone

It's so cute how people keep whining about difficulty and are yet unwilling to improve... Jeessus, this game seriously has the baddest players I've ever seen. Ideology seems to be; " I want everything but I don't wanna work for it". Dem scrubs.

---

What do you expect? The game has been built from the ground up to be a casual MMO, not very surprising. But hey, it works unlike "hardcore" MMOs, aka Wildstar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

What do you expect? The game has been built from the ground up to be a casual MMO, not very surprising. But hey, it works unlike "hardcore" MMOs, aka Wildstar.

---

But you have your diadem and tome gear. Leave the rest to those who want to get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

But you have your diadem and tome gear. Leave the rest to those who want to get it.

---

Do people actually do the Diadem anymore?

But that's not my point, I don't care for Thodan since the glamours are ugly. If they looked good enough I'd put in the effort to get it cleared, but eh, they look... bland to say the least. Regardless, I want content that isn't nerfed to the ground immediately, and the only "content" like that is Fenrir. I want players to improve, but SE gives no tools for that nor do they make DPS responsible for anything, but I suppose that's a subject for the parser thread. Just saying that you shouldn't be surprised when content is nerfed, even incredibly easy content like Steps of Faith was nerfed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

Do people actually do the Diadem anymore?

But that's not my point, I don't care for Thodan since the glamours are ugly. If they looked good enough I'd put in the effort to get it cleared, but eh, they look... bland to say the least. Regardless, I want content that isn't nerfed to the ground immediately, and the only "content" like that is Fenrir. I want players to improve, but SE gives no tools for that nor do they make DPS responsible for anything, but I suppose that's a subject for the parser thread. Just saying that you shouldn't be surprised when content is nerfed, even incredibly easy content like Steps of Faith was nerfed.

---

*Complains that last two floors of the hardest content (labeled savage, which has an equivalent mode for non-raiders) is impossible due to dps requirement, despite fact that people have clear it almost half a year ago*

*Claims that dps have no responsibility*

I'm not even sure what your point is since you (in the quote) claim that the gear is not your point.

This is a joke article right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMax1087

This is a joke article right?

---

It is like tittle say "What We Will & Hope to See" or other worlds what article writer hope to see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

*Complains that last two floors of the hardest content (labeled savage, which has an equivalent mode for non-raiders) is impossible due to dps requirement, despite fact that people have clear it almost half a year ago*

*Claims that dps have no responsibility*

I'm not even sure what your point is since you (in the quote) claim that the gear is not your point.

---

In any content other than Savage, perhaps I should have worded it better, "DPS have no individual responsibility without the use of 3rd party tools", do you prefer that wording?

When did I complain that the last two floors of Savage are impossible?

My point is, content is going to get nerfed, like it or not. Yet, every time it is people are surprised like it's something new. You'd think people would have realized Yoshida has a tendency to nerf everything into the ground by now.

Only thing I wouldn't mind them doing to A3S is removing the hard enrage. There are enough mid-fight dps checks and mechanics to deal with that it isn't really necessary. All it does is make recovery from any single mistake extremely difficult.

Quote:

---

It stopped people from leaving instantly with Steps of Faith, so quite well I'd say.

---

I *still* see people immediately leave Steps of Faith. Are we playing the same game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

I *still* see people immediately leave Steps of Faith. Are we playing the same game?

---

Could be that you're on an NA datacentre? I don't know what kind of person who leave it at this point though, you barely have to try to beat it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

Could be that you're on an NA datacentre? I don't know what kind of person who leave it at this point though, you barely have to try to beat it.

---

Id say so, I was on Tonberry (god I miss JP servers so much nicer) and everyone stayed every time. Barely have to do anything to clear now. But on EU/NA people seem to leave straight away all the time.

The mechanics in A3 Savage are fine but the dps checks are too high over all is the problem. Remove/Reduce the insane dps checks and leave all other mechanics the same and the fight will be ok.

The current level of difficulty is way to high for content that is negated so fast.

Yea some people are killing it, but overall it is too far overturned. The you must have all your DDS and Healers dmging at this extreme level + all your tanks have to be full str spec with str accessories or you die and pld is not a viable class is what needs to be addressed. The fight needs to be killed with an appropriate geared pld (not full str spec) and healers that are not DPS focused. (Any one who says this is possible without I210 gear is lying to themselves).

At this point though the dmg is already done, this content has caused many many ppl to quit the game already. They should of addressed this a month-month and half ago. I watched other guilds die and my guild lost nearly 50% of its raiders who said screw it and went to another game. And with patch 3.2 so close, SE probably should of just waited until the Ilvl increase and echo nerf. SE needs to learn from this, although I doubt they will.

Thordan's difficult is fine though. That fight does not need to be nerfed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

At this point though the dmg is already done, this content has caused many many ppl to quit the game already. They should of addressed this a month-month and half ago. I watched other guilds die and my guild lost nearly 50% of its raiders who said screw it and went to another game.

---

This is my primary concern with the state of some servers, mine included. I'm sure a good handful have gotten people xferring off to greg or balmung for the "grass is greener" mindset of a better raiding environment. Regardless of hte reason, it's happened and speaking from the perspective of famfrit, PF doesn't et more than 10 listings at a given time, the raiding scene is pretty dead, and you're hard pressed to find, let alone make, your own static if you weren't already in one. Transfering won't resolve the issue either and just leads to a deader server, on top of the investments and leaving behind your social networking and friends.

It's not something they can fix with a patch, unless they decide to implement cross-realm PF or partying to increase the pool of players to draw from for statics or grouping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkkoAihara

god ... just why has everything to be nerfed ... just let it be like it is now ... its >>savage<< after all

---

Because it drops gear relevant to progression. If it was Savage just like Coil, where the rewards were only titles, there woul be no problem to keep it as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fevelle

Because it drops gear relevant to progression. If it was Savage just like Coil, where the rewards were only titles, there woul be no problem to keep it as it is.

---

That's half of the problem. The other half is that with how undertuned normal mode is, Savage is the to-go-to raiding content for any and all raid statics. Can you imagine 2.2 to 2.3 if SCoB savage was the only option? That's the case right now with how undertuned Normal mode is; it doesn;t have any lasting shelf life for a typical static group, while at the same time savage requires a lot of time to be put into learning to get progression, something that most groups can't/don' want to commit. Take that and add 3-5 month gaps inbetween this and the next content update, and you got yourself a nasty problem with player burn out.

Hey, that's my editorial! I wrote that.

I addressed some very valid arguments made against the editorial, but it wound up being over double the maximum word count. So here is a screenshot of what I wrote:

http://puu.sh/lLBD5/ff5dcc5134.png

and here are the links to the arguments made, in the order they appear in the article. I hope this clears some stuff up.

http://puu.sh/lLzGg/3cfdc2866a.png

http://puu.sh/lLA3B/0708ca2087.png

http://puu.sh/lLApT/0adca9fb73.png

http://puu.sh/lLAGU/ebeff11c22.png

Edit: Any issue you may take with this article should be directed at me, rather than MMOs.com, because this was my editorial, and my editor's job was to make it flow more smoothly, which he did rather well. Besides, I'm the one who needs to learn how to English good, not the site. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

Could be that you're on an NA datacentre? I don't know what kind of person who leave it at this point though, you barely have to try to beat it.

---

It's a problem that has been ingrained into many player's minds - even after the nerf they assume a group will fail and thus they leave. Which is silly. It's a shame, too, because the original fight was very cool and fun in my opinion. It felt like a race against time with very high stakes. I mean, it's meant to be the last stand to prevent Ishgard from being overrun after all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

It's a problem that has been ingrained into many player's minds - even after the nerf they assume a group will fail and thus they leave. Which is silly. It's a shame, too, because the original fight was very cool and fun in my opinion. It felt like a race against time with very high stakes. I mean, it's meant to be the last stand to prevent Ishgard from being overrun after all...

---

It's an execution fight, you need half the group to know what they are doing. Often I would explain the tacts and people just would not listen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sky-Scythe

Hey, that's my editorial! I wrote that.
snip

---

The main problems is that the article makes it self out to be this is what happening in 3.15, okay may be a bit of speculation there. However none of it is possible. Very much sounds like you saying another 24-man raid will be added in 3.15, which wont happen. As well as it makes it sound like Thordan will get nerfed in 3.15, while yes one day its getting nerfed you're blind if you don't see that coming, its not happening in 3.15 for sure it only came out last month. As well as speculating Sky Pirate weapons in 3.15, as far as I know Yoshi only wants 24-man to drop gear 10ilvls lower then the cap. So no there is probably little to no chance of that happening.

This is just some feedback, yeah its speculation but at least most speculations I read are within the realm of possibility. This seems more like what you and your friends want more then anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

This is just some feedback, yeah its speculation but at least most speculations I read are within the realm of possibility.

---

This.

If anything, this is a good example of why these types of articles shouldn't be trusted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's half of the problem. The other half is that with how undertuned normal mode is, Savage is the to-go-to raiding content for any and all raid statics. Can you imagine 2.2 to 2.3 if SCoB savage was the only option? That's the case right now with how undertuned Normal mode is; it doesn;t have any lasting shelf life for a typical static group, while at the same time savage requires a lot of time to be put into learning to get progression, something that most groups can't/don' want to commit. Take that and add 3-5 month gaps inbetween this and the next content update, and you got yourself a nasty problem with player burn out.

---

Yup. I really can't see the purpose of the current Alex Normal mode because it was not handled very well in terms of content difficulty distribution. We have Alex 1 Normal mode, which is basically "Babby's First Raid", and then they release Void Ark a patch later that's catered to...the same group of players? I don't mind that there are 2 different difficulties for one raid, but it doesn't work very well when they are "too easy" and "very hard". If they keep doing 2 difficulties for Alex in future patches, ramping up the difficulty of Alex Normal to the level of Coil, where it would basically act as a stepping stone to Savage mode, would be a lot better.

You can't do Alex Normal to prepare for Savage right now because the difficulty curve is too big. Having Void Ark be easy mode, Alex Normal be "midcore raid group" mode, and Alex Savage being there for the bleeding edge raiders would be a better system, IMO. The main problem with Alex Savage right now and group disbandment is that groups that could clear Coils are going into Savage mode and getting wrecked because the level of individual player responsibility is much higher, and there isn't really an easy way to tell a friend "we've been raiding since 2.0 BCoB up to FCoB last year, but you're not really up to par for the current raid".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odett

snip

---

I believe they consider Alexander Normal to be very successful and are glad more people got to see raid content this time around, unlike with Coil. They weren't very sure of Savage though, mixed response with some people loving it and a lot hating it. Keeping in mind that it's a lot easier to strip a raid of its mechanics and make it easier, than have two challenging difficulties with varying mechanics, I'm thinking they'll scrap Savage and have Normal and Hard/Extreme. But hey, considering we're not getting a new Diadem map in 3.2 and still only 2 dungeons, why not three difficulties? Normal is for the story only, Hard/Extreme is for the gear, and Savage is for the mount and title... and maybe the weapon can only be found in Savage to assure that it isn't dead content? Not sure if people would like that, though, but if they disagree with it, it would make them seem more than a tad hypocritical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colorful

I believe they consider Alexander Normal to be very successful and are glad more people got to see raid content this time around, unlike with Coil.

---

Coil was working fine for story accessibility because they can add echo or tune down mechanics as it gets older. Something like savage is supposed to be hard, and nerfing/changing that goes against its premise. Then again like my previous posts, they've put in savage as the to-go raiding difficulty for the general population, but honestly I'm not sure what they were planning on; they said they wanted savage to be SCoB-savage levels difficult, but are surprised at the low clear rates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Coil was working fine for story accessibility because they can add echo or tune down mechanics as it gets older. Something like savage is supposed to be hard, and nerfing/changing that goes against its premise. Then again like my previous posts, they've put in savage as the to-go raiding difficulty for the general population, but honestly I'm not sure what they were planning on; they said they wanted savage to be SCoB-savage levels difficult, but are surprised at the low clear rates.

---

I think a lot of people ended up clearing SCoB Savage, at least on Tonberry. Once 2.5 hit and everyone had T13 down and geared up, a lot of people started going for SCoB savage clears. So they might of thought that was the clear rate. However I agree Alex Savage is too difficult and shouldn't be the end-game raid more so an optional extra...quite like SCoB Savage.