The Bottom Feeders: Moves You Never Use and Why.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

The weapon also does a lot. If the guy had a weapon with 5-10 ilvl less than you with the exact same gear everywhere else, it's normal that you kept agro.

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It was probably the weapon then. He was in Grit (and actually asked me why I had such high enmity gen, to which I answered: "I just push buttons..."), but, at the time, I had the hive weapon and I'm pretty sure he was still rocking the 175-180 Law weapon. So, that must have made the difference.

As for your AoE spam rotation, I'll definitely give this a shot. I'm typically shy on using AD because the Mp cost is so high, but if this works well then I may revise my Mob tanking method. I typically carried over a lot of habits from Pld (rotating targets on primary combo to hold enmity is pretty common and required given the low enmity gen of Flash and RoH), so it has been a learning experience to use AoE spams as a means of holding aggro.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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Try it during mass pulls, it's wonderful. Don't bother doing such a rotation for 3-4 mobs. Don't forget to weave your other dCDs and oGCDs while doing it, and you'll feel very good.

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Originally Posted by Februs

[*]3. War: This one's a toughy... Maybe Unchained?

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O.o

You're joking right?

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Originally Posted by xvshanevx

O.o

You're joking right?

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Partly, yes lol.

But, again, the idea is not to pick out moves which are "bad" (though, in Pld's case they might be). The idea is to pick out moves you don't use as often as other moves (Ie: "I use inner beast far more often than Unchained"), specify why (Ie: "because I'm not as good at working said move into my rotation" or "I stance dance between Defiance and Deliverance, which makes Unchained less useful" (I know this is a false statement. It's just an example I read in another thread somewhere)) and post them here so that either you can come up with possible ways of improving your own utility with said move or someone else might give you insight into how you might make better use of that move by giving you alternative uses or strategies you might not have thought of.

In that regard, any move is fair game. If it's something you don't use often for any reason, you can post it here and see if someone can give you some tips on how to better make use of it. Sometimes there won't be any tips (like Tempered Will, or Cover. The only way to get more use out of those moves now is for SE to make some much needed changes), but sometimes you might learn something.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Try it during mass pulls, it's wonderful. Don't bother doing such a rotation for 3-4 mobs. Don't forget to weave your other dCDs and oGCDs while doing it, and you'll feel very good.

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Listen to this. Abyssal Drain on mass pulls is simply amazing when combined with Blood Price. I'd only ever use AD on huge pulls. I leave Unleash for the smaller stuff. With stuff giving you MP back and you see your health drop is when you pop a DA AD and watch your health go straight up.

It's like one of the few abilities where I actually feel like an actual Dark Knight.

Unchained is an amazing CD for gaining and sustaining aggro during pulls and openers. I use it ALL THE TIME.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Listen to this. Abyssal Drain on mass pulls is simply amazing when combined with Blood Price. I'd only ever use AD on huge pulls. I leave Unleash for the smaller stuff. With stuff giving you MP back and you see your health drop is when you pop a DA AD and watch your health go straight up.

It's like one of the few abilities where I actually feel like an actual Dark Knight.

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I've been experimenting with it quite a bit just recently. Very different from my normal method of tanking, but I've been getting some pretty solid results. I don't quite have the timing down, though. By the time my Mp starts to get dangerously low, Blood price is back up, so I haven't had a good opportunity to drop Grit and test it out with DA-AD. I still need practice, I guess.

I think DA-DD isn't getting enough credit here. Yes, it is useless against bosses, but it is AMAZING in Dungeon trash and PvP, where there's actually a miss chance. Coupled with the blind from DP(also useless against bosses), you eventually stop taking damage for the last half of a pull.

PLD - Cover
Reason: Because if someone else has aggro over mobs, then you're not doing your job correctly (barring A2S snipers). Also only blocks physical.
Fix: Possibly shorten CD? Maybe even allow cover on 6 second oGCD like cleric stance? That would be interesting.
DRK - Unleash
Reason: Not saying skill is useless, I just find the least reason to use it. Only ever use it to grab snap aggro, then Blood Price + Abyssal Drain or Dark Passenger.
Fix: Doesn't need a fix, I just don't use it as much since it's on GCD and only used for snap aggro when I run 4 man dungeons (which is not often).
WAR - Steel Cyclone
Reason: In situations where I do need AOE Enmity and DPS, better to snap aggro with overpower, then build stacks and use triple Decimate. This method is much stronger than using all Wrath stacks on Steel Cyclone since WAR has no AOE enmity issues.
Fix: Possibly reduce stack consumption from all 5 to 3? I feel like this skill does not have a place when Overpower and Decimate exist.

Well, Storm's path sucks I guess. It's only ever used to cover yourself when your under geared, and then ditched as soon as possible, and the self heal you get from it is equally laughable.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Well, Storm's path sucks I guess. It's only ever used to cover yourself when your under geared, and then ditched as soon as possible, and the self heal you get from it is equally laughable.

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I knew this thread wouldn't let me down. In one thread I have heard that WARs Unchained and Path were bad... Man this is great...

SE you hearing your player base?! You need to buff Path and Unchained ASAP xD

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

I knew this thread wouldn't let me down. In one thread I have heard that WARs Unchained and Path were bad... Man this is great...

SE you hearing your player base?! You need to buff Path and Unchained ASAP xD

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An unused button is a bad button! Path is unused outside of progression... unless you want to minimize your own dps? I guess?

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Originally Posted by Februs

For Pld's and Drks, I'm pretty sure it's a dps loss ( Pld's definitely. Haven't actually done the math on Drks, but I'm assuming it is). Wars still get a benefit from it.

That's a good example though. Even as war, I don't use Fracture nearly as much as I used to. I'd increase DoT potency as a solution... but War's already have ridiculous Dps... maybe increasing DoT duration would make it more viable? It would still be a minor Dps increase, but I'd be more interested in not having to reapply it as frequently. Kinda a funny fix, though. I'd be using it more by not needing to use it as often....

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It's a loss for Warriors as well. Bleeds do not gain damage buffs from slashing debuffs (the dot damage is considered a poison. Same thing applies to ninjas but their bleed potency is far better). Add in the loss of a deliverance stack and the high tp cost--and no, there is no reason to use it. Watch a Xeno video recently for instance, notice he never uses it.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

It's a loss for Warriors as well. Bleeds do not gain damage buffs from slashing debuffs (the dot damage is considered a poison. Same thing applies to ninjas but their bleed potency is far better). Add in the loss of a deliverance stack and the high tp cost--and no, there is no reason to use it. Watch a Xeno video recently for instance, notice he never uses it.

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So... Much... Misinformation...

Fracture is a DPS gain for WAR. It also 100% can be buffed. Maim, Berserk, and STR pots all effect Fracture. That is the entire reason it is only 20 potency.

The reason you do not see it up 100% of the time is because it becomes a DPS loss if you let Eye fall off. So you can really only fit it in if you have low wrath stacks, no Infuriate, and just applied Eye.

It is a 300 pot move guys... Fucking use it.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Watch a Xeno video recently for instance, notice he never uses it.

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WTF ? The only video where he doesn't refresh it is on 8 WAR Ravana because he's MTing and uses IB at precise times. During Liberation phases it's useless to Fracture because the DoT won't tick for enough time to be worth it.

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Originally Posted by Aiio

WAR - Steel Cyclone
Reason: In situations where I do need AOE Enmity and DPS, better to snap aggro with overpower, then build stacks and use triple Decimate. This method is much stronger than using all Wrath stacks on Steel Cyclone since WAR has no AOE enmity issues.
Fix: Possibly reduce stack consumption from all 5 to 3? I feel like this skill does not have a place when Overpower and Decimate exist.

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I hadn't even thought of that one, but you're right. I don't use Steel Cyclone nearly as often as I could or probably should. This also has to do a bit with the timing. The move doesn't actually grab aggro until the animation is finished, so it's slower on the cut than overpower. Not to mention the fact that after 1 or 2 Overpowers, I don't really ever need additional aggro.

Interesting pick. Do any experienced Wars know if there are more opportune uses for Steel Cyclone? I know you can get a sudden Hp burst out of it by coupling it with Bloodbath on a mob of 4 or more, but I don' t know if it's worth it or not.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

I knew this thread wouldn't let me down. In one thread I have heard that WARs Unchained and Path were bad... Man this is great...

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Again... not "BAD." Just less used.

In that regard, Thunda Cat is not wrong. An unused button is an unused button. It doesn't mean that the move needs to be fixed, just that it's not as commonly employed. Relax. No one is trying to knock your beloved Warrior from his perfect pedestal of supremacy.

as WHM i've had tanks use cover on me if i've gotten vulnerability debuffed. i say its a good thing to have in emergencies but never really necessary.
also, as WHM i never used repose ever when leveling, but i guess now that i'm leveling BLM i can see how useful sleep can be so i might use it more :o
i also completely stopped using stoneII as soon as i got stone III

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Originally Posted by MoarLegion

I think DA-DD isn't getting enough credit here. Yes, it is useless against bosses, but it is AMAZING in Dungeon trash and PvP, where there's actually a miss chance. Coupled with the blind from DP(also useless against bosses), you eventually stop taking damage for the last half of a pull.

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I honestly haven't tried it in pvp, but as far as dungeons and large pulls you can invest that MP into your dps and get much larger returns and mitigation from an actual damage down CD like shadow skin instead of wasting it on an rng evade potential. The opportunity cost of using that buffed just isn't worth it to me when I can mitigate more, melt the mobs with greater dps while recovering more hp when using BP > DA/AD.

Seriously LOLing at some of these other responses tho.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Again... not "BAD." Just less used.

In that regard, Thunda Cat is not wrong. An unused button is an unused button. It doesn't mean that the move needs to be fixed, just that it's not as commonly employed. Relax. No one is trying to knock your beloved Warrior from his perfect pedestal of supremacy.

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Except that he totally said an unused button is a "bad" button. That was literally his exact words. Which is stupid. Path is amazing. Period.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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Steel Cyclone is great if you are in a situation where you cannot come out of Defience and are trying to maximize DPS with two or more enemies. If you don't need the mitigation from IB and there are two or more enemies it will always be a DPS gain to use it over IB. A perfect example of this is 4 Jagd Doll phase of A2S. Can't drop Defiance there but you can hit all 4 dolls with a 200 pot move that ignores your tank stance penalty. Steel Cyclone is also amazing for large trash pulls while running with a baller SMN. I will typically overpower, Eye combo an enemy for maim, Defensive CD, Bloodbath, Berserk, then Steel Cyclone, Infuriate, Deliverence, Decimate. With that I do metric fucktons of AoE DPS, self healing, and emnity while covering myself with CDs and allowing my SMN and BLM to go HAM on the trash.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Except that he totally said an unused button is a "bad" button. That was literally his exact words. Which is stupid. Path is amazing. Period.

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Except that that post was mimicking your own exaggeration. Realistically, Path is unused 99% of the time because it's both lowest dps and has a largely unwanted secondary effect, except for those moments when you need the extra mitigation because you're too bad to get gear to not need the mitigation.

The original post was "This move sucks because it's not needed, not sucks because it's bad".

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Steel Cyclone is great if you are in a situation where you cannot come out of Defience and are trying to maximize DPS with two or more enemies.

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Great insight. I typically use Steel Cyclone onmobs for the sake of Tp consumption but I never actually worked out the dps increase on it. I think my problem is that, because Pld has been my main since the beginning, I'm unaccustomed to the different defense brought by Warriors. When leveling War I always felt a little less secure in my defense because it feels so different from the "one and done" style of Pld CD's. So, I tend to over-prioritize IB when I don't necessarily need to. I'll definitely be giving your AoE dps rotation a try next time I roll as War, though. It sounds like a much better alternative.

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Originally Posted by Cyhix

as WHM i've had tanks use cover on me if i've gotten vulnerability debuffed. i say its a good thing to have in emergencies but never really necessary.

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That's true, but it really isn't as effective as it should be. Even in terms of Range, there's a ridiculous restriction on the efficiency of Cover, especially from the MT position. More times than not, MT cannot move from their assigned spot, so even if you get that 1 in 100 chance to use Cover, you can't because the casters are too far away to reach with the effect. In that case, Clemency gives a huge advantage over Cover, and has essentially made the move redundant, since the heal potency trumps the potential gains of Cover (especially in the MT position, where additional dmg my not be the best option).

To make Cover useful really requires some tweaking from SE. It should be given a shorter recast and additional range, at the very least. To make it truly useful, though, they would have to provide an additional effect, such as an aura effect or a healing DoT or something. Anything that would give Pld's a real reason to actually use it. The way it is now, it sits on my 3rd alternate hotbar in a spot that I hardly even remember is there.

I'm still in the process of lvl'ing my Whm, but I definitely agree that Repose is almost never used. Even in instances when I think it would be good to use it, the Spell speed is too slow. It's faster to apply DoT's and get back on the healing than take the time to cast Repose. I also see what you mean about Stones. It feels like with each lvl of it you completely do away with the previous one. Aero, at least, has a combined effect you can take advantage of, but Stone III is simply more powerful than stone II, which is more powerful than Stone I (I don't think anyone really cares about the Heavy effect).

The biggest thing cover needs is for macros to not screw over ability queuing so that you can use it with mouseover without having to mash it.

I've found that using a macro for Divine Veil and Cover has allowed me to use them both much more than I used to (but still very situational).

For Cover, I use the following macro:
/target <triangle>
/p Covering <triangle>. Notice me senpai. Run to me!
/ac "Cover"
/wait 10
/p Cover is ending, flee for your life!

So the above, I use the Triangle mark (but you can make it any mark you want, i just correlated to the button on my hotbar for ps4 and made multiple so I can choose who I need to cover). I usually mark both healers unless I find it necessary to mark tank in certain fights (like chrysalis if the healer's aren't on point). So for me, i only take up 2 hotbar spaces on my 2nd hotbar (i personally use square and triangle). I have it wait 10 sec instead of the 12 to announce for the person to run away so they don't get hammered the second it ends. Obviously you can make the /p anything you want. The 2nd line used to be <t>, but if I was still targeting the boss when I popped it, I'd sometimes end up saying "Covering (insert boss here). Notice me senpai. Run to me!" Honestly, it's lead to some pretty funny convos in party chat though. Like,
"why you covering ultima"
"I think he needs the protection from us more"

For Divine Veil, I simply put a /p announcement. It simply says, "Using Divine Veil, everyone run to me. Heal to activate"
Just be careful not to have your party run to you in bad situations. For instance, I had a nice DPS run to me in Titan HM... right through his landslide. But hey! He had Divine Veil on before his face got smashed in!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Except that that post was mimicking your own exaggeration. Realistically, Path is unused 99% of the time because it's both lowest dps and has a largely unwanted secondary effect, except for those moments when you need the extra mitigation because you're too bad to get gear to not need the mitigation.

The original post was "This move sucks because it's not needed, not sucks because it's bad".

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It is literally blowing my mind that someone is honestly trying to argue that a move that mitigates 10% of ALL outgoing damage is bad. No way that you slice Path can make it bad. None. It is honestly one of the best moves in the game.

I agree. A Drk would love to use Reprisal every 10 or so seconds. And get a small heal to boot. It's one of the Warrior's best utilities out there. And isn't gated by a Parry Proc. Having a on demand -10% to all damage coming anyone's way is always useful. Whether it is magical or physical.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Except that that post was mimicking your own exaggeration. Realistically, Path is unused 99% of the time because it's both lowest dps and has a largely unwanted secondary effect, except for those moments when you need the extra mitigation because you're too bad to get gear to not need the mitigation.

The original post was "This move sucks because it's not needed, not sucks because it's bad".

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Alexander Savage tank busters are now laughing at you for not using Path. Your healer now hates you.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Alexander Savage tank busters are now laughing at you for not using Path. Your healer now hates you.

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If your healer notices a 5% discrepancy, you're doing something wrong as a tank.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I agree. A Drk would love to use Reprisal every 10 or so seconds. And get a small heal to boot. It's one of the Warrior's best utilities out there. And isn't gated by a Parry Proc. Having a on demand -10% to all damage coming anyone's way is always useful. Whether it is magical or physical.

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Reprisal stacks with Path, I have always wondered why people see this Delirium-vs-DragonKick-esque competition between the two. In practice a raid group with DRK and WAR is probably getting a lot more mileage out of Reprisal actually, as its on the boss considerably more. Yeah its gated by parry, but you uhh.. tend to parry quite a bit in a non-ReX/A4 fight. And its off GCD, not gated by a combo. Path is amazing, yeah, but in an actual raid your WAR will happily forgo using it while you keep Reprisal up 50-60% of the time. Not to mention Delirium in the absence of a MNK, DRK is the only tank that suffers -zero- loss of DPS by keeping a boss debuffed with maximum uptime.

I don't really compare the two. If you MT as a Drk(which you will be most of the time) you'll have Reprisal up every half a minute RNG permitting especially with Dark Dance up. Reprisal and Path aren't actively fighting each other to be under the enemy's name like Delirium and Dragon Kick do.

DK only ever overrides and stays there because it provides 2 effects as opposed to Delirium's one effect. But if they ever made a change to make Delir and DK stack and give a 20% Int down wombo combo I'd be A ok with that.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

snip about steel cyclone a2s jagds

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I feel like this is quite arguable since the application of debuffs exist on one, so it would be better to switch to deliverance and use fell cleaves vs. decimate vs. steel cyclone. Of course, your point is valid - just it really depends on the healer and since if you use triple fell cleave with vengeance + raw int + awareness there really shouldn't be a problem switching to deliverance for this wave (especially given how this patch is catch up on gear levels) to maximize DPS output on single target with the advantage of Vuln UP.
Also interesting of you to note SMN enmity, which I think should not really be an issue with equally geared WAR and SMN. A2S specifically, if you are having trouble with aggro and the MT (DRK/PLD) isn't the one pulling it off you then something is very very wrong with your AOE rotation..

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Well, Storm's path sucks I guess. It's only ever used to cover yourself when your under geared, and then ditched as soon as possible, and the self heal you get from it is equally laughable.

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Storm's path is one of the most useful skills in the game. It not only covers yourself, but also covers damage taken by the entire party. The skill has a considerable amount of usage in damage mitigation for savage, and the only time I can really think of not applying it would be is when it is a DPS loss in casual content since healing through those kinds of content is incredibly easy. Saying that the skill "sucks" is a grossly incorrect statement to make considering its 10% party mitigation.

On Dark Knight, there is one "move" that's not really useful : Dark Dance during Dark Arts.
The Evasion bonus is so low it doesn't change much in the damage you take. Worse, if you have Blood Price up, it actually prevents you from gaining some MP back.

Fix : Make it so that Dark Dance became a sure one-time parry if used with Dark Arts. This way, you could use Dark Dance for an unreliable "long" duration buff, or combine with Dark Arts for sure one-time physical mitigation, while allowing a precisely timed Reprisal. And it would fall right inbetween Sheltron and Raw Intuition.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On Dark Knight, there is one "move" that's not really useful : Dark Dance during Dark Arts.
The Evasion bonus is so low it doesn't change much in the damage you take. Worse, if you have Blood Price up, it actually prevents you from gaining some MP back.

Fix : Make it so that Dark Dance became a sure one-time parry if used with Dark Arts. This way, you could use Dark Dance for an unreliable "long" duration buff, or combine with Dark Arts for sure one-time physical mitigation, while allowing a precisely timed Reprisal. And it would fall right inbetween Sheltron and Raw Intuition.

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Its actually extremely useful in dungeons when bp is on cooldown. I never speed run without it.

At the beginning I was thinking the same about DA Dark Dance, but now I use it in literally every single trash pull when I do dungeons. When BP falls off, combine it with DA Dark Passenger and you switch from edgelord to dodgelord. That's awesome. It's only useless for high end raiding, and for me it's more about encounter design than the skill itself. If they made actual boss attacks able to be dodged, it'd become a very nice CD against bosses like Living Liquid (average to high speed, high damage physical auto attacks and cleaves with a lot of magical raid-wide mechanic damage), especially considering its gorgeous uptime.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If they made actual boss attacks able to be dodged, it'd become a very nice CD against bosses like Living Liquid (average to high speed, high damage physical auto attacks and cleaves with a lot of magical raid-wide mechanic damage), especially considering its gorgeous uptime.

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Instead of that, we end up with two skills that can't express their full potentail in high end raid.
Changing Dark Dance while keeping Dark Passenger as it is would help being useful in raid and dungeons.

And we already have Abyssal Drain to be godlike in dungeons but close to useless against bosses.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If your healer notices a 5% discrepancy, you're doing something wrong as a tank.

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No, the fact that you think it's useless means you're doing something wrong. And probably more than one something, at that.

I think DA DD is great because if you don't dodge you still have chance to parry. Dodging an attack is the best mitigation you can ever hope for. But if you parry instead you can reprisal and decrease your damage done to you. Or save your reprisal for something else if the fight calls for it.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I honestly haven't tried it in pvp

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It is godly in PvP, but typically goes unused because the burst rotation for Drk requires the use of Dark Arts/Soul Eater. Mp is easier to drain in PvP, so saving it for a good burst tends to be more useful, but in any circumstances where you find yourself facing down a angry mob, DA-DD can save your bacon.