The Bottom Feeders: Moves You Never Use and Why.

[Februs]

Yo! I'm bored so I figured I'd post a question that everyone here has experience with and has probably been mentioned before several times over. Every Tank Job in this game has certain moves that they almost never use, or at least use far less frequently than the rest. I want to know: which moves are your bottom feeders, why, and what might be done to change that.

For example:

• 1. Pld: Tempered Will.
  
  I almost never use it. Cooldown is WAY too long and the move has almost zero utility except in rare instances.
  
  Solution? Lower the CD, maybe add an additional effect (Tp regen? Raid utility? Anything, really)
  
  
• 2. Drk: Abyssal Drain.
  
  I use it very infrequently. Unleash does the job just fine for Aggro, and Hp regen is only a plus when in Dark Arts... which severely drains my MP pool for extra healing that I typically have a healer there for.
  
  Solution? ... I dunno. Increase Mp cost, but swap the effect of Dark Arts (ie: Abyssal drain always restores small (much less than currently) amounts of Hp, but only provides aggro when used with Dark Arts) I dunno, but right now I just don't use it much.
  
  
• 3. War: This one's a toughy... Maybe Unchained?
  
  I still use it quite a bit, but not as often thanks to the stance dancing brought in by Deliverance.
  
  Solution? Again, I don't know... maybe lower the CD or add a reverse effect while already in Deliverance... but that seems Op....

These are just the 3 that came to mind. I'm sure other people have their own lists and reasons (maybe it's just in a bad spot on your Hotbar...who knows). Have fun with it. What moves grate your gears and stay hidden at the bottom of your utility belt collecting dust?

PS. This is not just for Pld's to gripe. I realize that the current state of affairs means Pld's have more moves to complain about than Drk's and War's, but I'm actually more curious about those 2. So try, just try, to not turn this into another Pld dps debate.

EDIT: A couple of things that have come up over the course of the thread that I figure I should address:

• 1st: Moves you "do not use as often" DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE BAD. It just means you don't use them as often. It might mean they are bad and are in need of a fix (Pld, in most cases), but it could also mean you just aren't using them as effectively as you could be for whatever reason. When discussing why you don't use a move as often, take this into account. Stretch your imagination. Even a "good" move can go underused (For example: Hallowed Ground is by far the strongest Defensive Cooldown in the game... but is also one of the least used because of it's long CD. For the sake of not spending it, Pld's often don't use it for entire dungeon runs. Does that mean it's bad? No. It's just underused)
  
  
• 2nd: "Fixing" a move that you don't use as often does not exclusively mean pleading with SE to make an adjustment with several pages of math to back up your ideas. Again, in the case of Pld, it might require some SE intervention to get the most out of it, but in some cases the person who listed the move as "underused" might just be misinterpreting its utility. In that case, I ask that more experienced tanks who main the specific job in question to take it upon themselves to provide insight to the less experienced and explain how that player might get more use out of the move (And try to be nice. "HAR HAR Git Gud!" isn't helping anyone and just makes you look like a fool).
  
  This includes the all-perfect Warrior. Don't be afraid to ask questions about it if there are moves you are not sure about just because everyone and their dog says that the job is perfect. The job might be perfect, but that doesn't mean you're perfect using it. The idea here is that Tanks (especially those who traditionally main-ed other jobs) might learn how to improve their tanking. Let's help each other out.
  
  To this end, you guys have been great so far. I've seen several moves explained in greater detail (including some Pld moves that are widely considered "broken" or too situational to be useful) so that people can take better use of them. Very nice work. Keep it up.

[Brannigan]

Warrior has no bad actions. Basically all of them can be used frequently and they all work in every fight. Dark Knight really just has Abyssal Drain/Unleash redundancy - one of them could be removed or changed and you wouldn't see a big change in DRK performance.

[Februs]

Warrior has no bad actions. Basically all of them can be used frequently and they all work in every fight. Dark Knight really just has Abyssal Drain/Unleash redundancy - one of them could be removed or changed and you wouldn't see a big change in DRK performance.

It doesn't just have to be "Bad" actions. Any action that pops up on CD but you let it sit there instead of using it is fair game. In that regard (and this is going to sound a little ridiculous) another example is Vengeance.

Vengeance is a phenomenal CD... which is precisely why I don't use it often. It's like the cannon I keep in my back pocket. I could use it now... or I could save it for the next big monster that comes my way....In that way, it's similar to Sentinel for Pld's (though Sentinel is a little worse due to a longer CD). I often save it because, if I don't absolutely need it, it might be better to hold onto it for the next "oh sh**" moment.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Isn't Fracture a DPS loss to use now for all tanks, though?

[Februs]

Isn't Fracture a DPS loss to use now for all tanks, though?

For Pld's and Drks, I'm pretty sure it's a dps loss ( Pld's definitely. Haven't actually done the math on Drks, but I'm assuming it is). Wars still get a benefit from it.

That's a good example though. Even as war, I don't use Fracture nearly as much as I used to. I'd increase DoT potency as a solution... but War's already have ridiculous Dps... maybe increasing DoT duration would make it more viable? It would still be a minor Dps increase, but I'd be more interested in not having to reapply it as frequently. Kinda a funny fix, though. I'd be using it more by not needing to use it as often....

[Faytte]

For Pld's and Drks, I'm pretty sure it's a dps loss ( Pld's definitely. Haven't actually done the math on Drks, but I'm assuming it is). Wars still get a benefit from it.

That's a good example though. Even as war, I don't use Fracture nearly as much as I used to. I'd increase DoT potency as a solution... but War's already have ridiculous Dps... maybe increasing DoT duration would make it more viable? It would still be a minor Dps increase, but I'd be more interested in not having to reapply it as frequently. Kinda a funny fix, though. I'd be using it more by not needing to use it as often....

It's a loss for Warriors as well. Bleeds do not gain damage buffs from slashing debuffs (the dot damage is considered a poison. Same thing applies to ninjas but their bleed potency is far better). Add in the loss of a deliverance stack and the high tp cost--and no, there is no reason to use it. Watch a Xeno video recently for instance, notice he never uses it.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

It's a loss for Warriors as well. Bleeds do not gain damage buffs from slashing debuffs (the dot damage is considered a poison. Same thing applies to ninjas but their bleed potency is far better). Add in the loss of a deliverance stack and the high tp cost--and no, there is no reason to use it. Watch a Xeno video recently for instance, notice he never uses it.

So... Much... Misinformation...

Fracture is a DPS gain for WAR. It also 100% can be buffed. Maim, Berserk, and STR pots all effect Fracture. That is the entire reason it is only 20 potency.

The reason you do not see it up 100% of the time is because it becomes a DPS loss if you let Eye fall off. So you can really only fit it in if you have low wrath stacks, no Infuriate, and just applied Eye.

It is a 300 pot move guys... Fucking use it.

[Freyyy]

Watch a Xeno video recently for instance, notice he never uses it.

WTF ? The only video where he doesn't refresh it is on 8 WAR Ravana because he's MTing and uses IB at precise times. During Liberation phases it's useless to Fracture because the DoT won't tick for enough time to be worth it.

[Jpec07]

Tempered Will is actually really useful on fights with knockback mechanics (and there are more than a few of those). Not sure if they hotfixed it or not, but it used to completely negate the damage caused by the knockback AoE in Fractal's second boss (as well as allowing you to position yourself more easily afterward). It's situational, but there are more situations that call for it than I think people realize.

DA-AD guarantees more HP than DA-SD when you're facing four or more enemies. If you have Blood Price on at the same time, I've usually found that it eats the MP cost pretty well (though in this circumstance, the more mobs you're facing, the better). It's also situational, but I've found more use for this than the line-AoE-to-DA-blind attack (which is little more than a MP sink so I don't max out).

I didn't really have a single action I didn't use while leveling WAR, though, but I also feel like the WAR toolkit is a lot smaller.

[Februs]

Tempered Will is actually really useful on fights with knockback mechanics (and there are more than a few of those). Not sure if they hotfixed it or not, but it used to completely negate the damage caused by the knockback AoE in Fractal's second boss (as well as allowing you to position yourself more easily afterward). It's situational, but there are more situations that call for it than I think people realize.

I'm pretty sure they did hotfix that... I can't remember though. Been a while since I've gotten that one as my roulette, now that I think about it.
You're right though. It is FAR more useful than most people give it credit for, especially when you consider that it doubles in utility by removing binds and heavies (most of them, anyway). Still, the obstinately long cooldown does restrict it's usage far more than is necessary. Considering how situational the move is, the CD is a bit of overkill. For example, your own example in Fractal. You could only use that move once in that fight. So, for one instance in that fight out of the 3 (on common average) times he uses that knockback you get a tiny advantage. Considering you can only use it the one time before you can never use it again, it seems redundant to even bother. It also doesn't change that, out of all my Pld moves, Tempered is by far the one I use least.

DA-AD guarantees more HP than DA-SD when you're facing four or more enemies. If you have Blood Price on at the same time, I've usually found that it eats the MP cost pretty well (though in this circumstance, the more mobs you're facing, the better). It's also situational, but I've found more use for this than the line-AoE-to-DA-blind attack (which is little more than a MP sink so I don't max out).

Again, very true. However, the mp drain caused by the move is far more dmging than the Hp you stand to gain, especially since you have a healer who should be healing you in the first place. So, again, not used as frequently for me as the rest of the moves.

I'm pretty sure Dark passenger has actually been proved to be an inefficient use of Dark Arts. So that's another good example. The Hp gain on DA-Soul Eater is better for mitigation than the blind, especially since you are multiplying your Mp destruction by using DA and DP at the same time. It's better to pop DP on CD and use Soul Eater for mitigation. DP is still a dps gain, mind you, so I wouldn't say the move itself is a bottom feeder... but the additional effect caused by Dark Arts certainly fits the bill.

I didn't really have a single action I didn't use while leveling WAR, though, but I also feel like the WAR toolkit is a lot smaller.

Aw... C'mon. Stretch your imagination. It doesn't have to be "bad." Only something you just don't use as much.