To all the people complaining about DPSing in an off role

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Some people think that doing just the bare minimum of what their job required them to do is good enough.

It's like people who aim to pass the exams with the minimum scores. They can pass, they can graduate, but who wants to hire someone like that to work for them?

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Nobody is complaining because much is expected from them in AS.

They re complaining because the wrong things are expected from them. People play healer and tank to heal and tank, not to play DPS.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

They re complaining because the wrong things are expected from them. People play healer and tank to heal and tank, not to play DPS.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif

DPS classes can focus on what they like and enjoy while tanks and healers are forced into the dps parser race.

Outside of Savage (Disclaimer: I don't play Savage. Just watch them on Youtube and Twitch), I don't see many content that needs extreme amount of DPS coming out of tanks and healers.

Sure, the extra DPS is good for a faster run, but I don't necessarily call a healer bad just because he can't throw some Holy here and there.

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Originally Posted by Felis

A healer in Cleric Stance during last boss of Vault? Should expect to get kicked.
There are more situations in the game that test the healers how fast they can react to keep the party alive.

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People can stance dance in the last boss and shouldn't expect to be kicked. Now if you can't do it then yea don't.

Are we really going through this song and dance yet again?


Why is it that a DPS can get away with doing just average while a healer and tank are expected to DPS on top of their primary roles? If I wanted to focus on DPS only, I'd go play as a DPS. Considering that 99% of the player base won't ever touch Alexander savage, all this talk about pushing out MAD DEEPS is unneeded since you can easily do everything else without needing extra DPS and the worst that is going to happen is you taking 5 minutes longer to finish something. I don't think it's fair that a DPS only needs one job for a fight while a healer and tank are asked to do double the workload. And people wonder why we have so few healers and tanks signing up on the DF. Heck, no wonder so many people want to play as a DPS; all you have to do is use the same rotations over and over and aren't asked to do anything else.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

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What is your point? Just because you can do 99% of this game by bashing your face against the keyboard means that you should do exactly that and not improve at all?

I think the main issue this thread wants to adress is that there are actually people in this community that actively tell healers NOT to dps and sometimes even kick them for it, when in fact, by keeping everyone alive and dpsing, they're doing their job: Supporting the party. This, like every form of good play, should be encouraged not punished.

The fact, if damage dealers are not worried about their dps, someone in the party has to do it.

Don't blame META to force healers and tanks do dps, blame dps because they are not doing his job. Ah no, poor dps with an awful rotation, Allow him to play as he wants! Me as healer i will do dps.

You created the monster, deal with it.

To be honest, if healers have plenty of time to be dpsing it makes me feel that the healing mechanics of a fight are either underdeveloped or the encounter is poorly balanced. Healing in a instance environment is quite different gameplay to dpsing or tanking. DPSing on a healer is actually pretty boring generally and I do dps when I feel I can safely do it (deaths in a run make it a lot longer than me holding back on dps).

Having healers and for that matter tanks required to maximise DPS for me raises the question of wether the fight is designed well to engage the healers AS healers or wether they are putting dps expectations on top of already complicated healing mechanics. DPSing for a healer should be a nice extra when they have a bit of space in and encounter, if bursting is needed or if they overgear the encounter. Outside of that, a healer shouldn't need to dps.

@OP it's the fact that people do want to tank rather than be a glorified dps that can hold aggro and not be in tank stance while doing it it's what people are up in arms about. I recently just started playing more dps roles as i've had no drive to play my tank anymore I hate when someone's yelling at me to "do more DPS tank wtf!!" by a blm who's doing 400 dps and i'm at 700+ in stance.

I hate this mentality I REALLY do, DPS should be a benefit not a priority that's what people are complaining about it's very counter intuitive that as a tank a warrior can do more DPS than half of the DPS i've grouped with, and on top of that healers are not able to support as much because there's no accuracy on healing gear? This game doesn't know what it wants right now and Yoshida realizes that as mentioned before, i've had my fill of lazy DPS it feels satisfying destroying things on a Drg than being a DPS tank I can tell you that much.

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Originally Posted by Felis

A healer in Cleric Stance during last boss of Vault? Should expect to get kicked.

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Sorry, but, hahahahahaha.

That aside, the Vault's final boss isn't difficult to heal through and be able to dps at the same time under certain circumstances. The main difficulty stems from people getting hit by those horses and not breaking chains quickly enough. Even then, stance dancing is very much possible if the player is skilled enough. There are also a lot of tools given the healers to deal with the incoming damage (Assize, Indomitability, and Lightspeed are some examples).

Main point being; Though it isn't necessary, it is very much appreciated if they take the extra step.

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

Don't be a Sylphie.

But seriously, if find yourself with full MP and you haven't cast an action in 10-15 seconds, you're wasting the time of everyone around you. If you want a power nap, go farm unsynced nodes as a gatherer.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

DPS classes can focus on what they like and enjoy while tanks and healers are forced into the dps parser race.

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Ironically dps classes don't seem to enjoy dpsing since healers and tanks that care about dps outdps them all the time.

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Originally Posted by Felis

A healer in Cleric Stance during last boss of Vault? Should expect to get kicked.

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Would get my commendation. Pretty sad that you'd kick people for being good at the game.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Some people think that doing just the bare minimum of what their job required them to do is good enough.

It's like people who aim to pass the exams with the minimum scores. They can pass, they can graduate, but who wants to hire someone like that to work for them?

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I'm starting to think you're a troll. I see you in every topic about healing with bad arguments and never answering anything people try to tell you. Anyway, here I go...

The bare minimum for a healer is keeping people alive. The bare minimum for a Tank is keeping hate. If they mitigate, buff, cast barriers and use CDs correctly,they're not doing the bare minimum anymore.

The discussion is not about that, it's about expecting the wrong thing about healers and tanks. Did you ever put a healer in your party for damage? Did you ever put a Tank in your party for damage? Probably not. This game is flawed in a way that keeping threat and healing is SO OVERPOWERED that people expect these jobs to go out of their niche and help with DPS. I'll put what I said in another topic here:

"It's boring (healers and tank jobs) because, as of now, we don't need even to pop CDs outside of the highest tier raid to keep the party alive. Seriously, do you really think a WHM -needs to- use Divine Seal on a normal run? We use it to make our job easier (and to have more time to DPS, mind it), but it's not like other tanks and DPS jobs that will probably fail at their job if they don't use their cooldowns correctly.

Taking away DPS capabilities from healers in 4-man, 8-man and 24-man content gives us space to ask for one more thing: make healing NECESSARY. We are currently "supporting" the party with one heal or other, not focusing on healing. That's what I want: encounters where I have to push my job to its maximum by HEALING, not by popping CDs to create time windows and help with damage."

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Outside of that, a healer shouldn't need to dps.

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Even if it's not "needed" you should do it anyway. Higher dps=faster runs=faster rewards=more time to do other things. Time efficiency is amazing.

I just want them to put Savage mode raids in the duty finder sooner than they have in the past.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Even if it's not "needed" you should do it anyway. Higher dps=faster runs=faster rewards=more time to do other things. Time efficiency is amazing.

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In cutting edge content, which is really the only place you 'need' to dps as a healer, the healing meta should be challenging enough that the healers shouldn't have a large amount of spare time unless they over gear the content. If they do have lots of spare time to dps it suggests that the mechanics for healers aren't developed enough.

This isn't about wether a healer can dps but wether a healer needs too. As I stated, I generally do dps when healing as long as I am confidant its safe to do so. But it should be something needed for a group to actually clear the content. If it is then they are either putting too much on my plate or not giving me enough to heal.

Seriously though healer dps isn't so much that your saving a huge amount of time generally. It helps to be sure save some time but so does running everywhere and I don't see people running through the streets everytime I step outside. Its a game, not a chore or a job. Take the time to enjoy it and if your not enjoying it then your probably doing it for the wrong reasons.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Seriously though healer dps isn't so much that your saving a huge amount of time generally. It helps to be sure save some time but so does running everywhere and I don't see people running through the streets everytime I step outside. Its a game, not a chore or a job. Take the time to enjoy it and if your not enjoying it then your probably doing it for the wrong reasons.

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You'd be surprised how much time it can save if both dps are incompetent lazy one handed netflix watching facebook posting blizzard spamming scrubs. Also, I enjoy being able to keep the team alive and speed up the run. I don't know what you find fun in this game, but I certainly don't have fun taking 30+ mins to finish a simple dungeon when I can be finishing my 2nd run in 15-18 min dungeon runs or be doing something else.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Nobody is complaining because much is expected from them in AS.

They re complaining because the wrong things are expected from them. People play healer and tank to heal and tank, not to play DPS.

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explain why I meet Str tanks and offensive healers more than those lazy ones in every duty.

and explain why SE allow stance changing in non-solo content.

There's a reason people joke that there aren't tanks in this game: Only DPS with a few defensive cooldowns.

Then go do that something else, your not some special snowflake that everyone has to play a certain way for. Honestly if i was healing in a dungeon and got kicked for "slowing your dungeon down", id report you. You should be the one leaving.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Then go do that something else, your not some special snowflake that everyone has to play a certain way for. Honestly if i was healing in a dungeon and got kicked for "slowing your dungeon down", id report you. You should be the one leaving.

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except it's not a ToS violation, confirmed by a GM.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

if devs break the trinity and make all jobs need dealt high amount of dps then i prefer go to play monster hunter online, all need to do dps mechanics are more fun and bosses are much more hard.

anyway, extra dps need to be a luxury when you are overgeared, not in ilvl 190 to beat a i200-i210 raid, this is bad designe, if the people are overgeared then lets go to dealt extra dps to kill this boss more fast, but now? really...

Everyone gets some form of DPS ability because every job needs at least some capability to fight overworld stuff on its own. It is not because they expect these skills to always be applied in a party.

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This game has practically zero solo content,

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Almost every single quest that doesn't require you going into the Duty Finder is solo content. There's a lot of quests in the game.

Most instances for MSQ and class/job-specific fights actually *require* you to be solo, as well.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Tanks and Healers putting out damage is the way that the game is meant to be played at the highest level, it always has been, and I believe that it will be for as long as FF14 runs.

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So, considering that the Devs stated that all content is made without healer and tank dps, we must conclude that they don't know their own game. LOL

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Originally Posted by shao32

anyway, extra dps need to be a luxury when you are overgeared, not in ilvl 190 to beat a i200-i210 raid, this is bad designe, if the people are overgeared then lets go to dealt extra dps to kill this boss more fast, but now? really...

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Welcome to MMO where dpscheck/gearcheck exist.

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Originally Posted by NaySilver

So, considering that the Devs stated that all content is made without healer and tank dps, we must conclude that they don't know their own game. LOL

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SE knows about the game and dps capacity. Then i copied my sign.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Im pretty sure SE think their NA/EU playerbase is made up of people who want to sit in housing and wear bunny ears or talk about lore instead of downing bosses on level 60 characters.

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Originally Posted by NaySilver

So, considering that the Devs stated that all content is made without healer and tank dps, we must conclude that they don't know their own game. LOL

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Maybe it just show that the DPS players are bad than the devs thought, if some players think that healer and tank damage is needed ^^

I see healer damage always as a bonus. If damage is not high enough then the party should first look at the dps players. Doing damage is their main task, not the healers main task.

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Originally Posted by NaySilver

So, considering that the Devs stated that all content is made without healer and tank dps, we must conclude that they don't know their own game. LOL

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Tank DPS is taken into consideration. It's healer that is not. It is also calculated at more than minimum ilvl as well. They calculate it to the point where they want people to clear it, not min ilvl. They stated clearing below this point will require Healer DPS. We don't know a lot of things either, like if stuff like food and pots are factored into these calculations.

But yeah, I get your point, and think the overly dps meta should change.

If you read the threads most people are complaining about DPS being prioritised over healing or tanking when the situation calls for players to be putting their main role first.

This is completely different from just saying "I don't wanna DPS".

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

If you read the threads most people are complaining about DPS being prioritised over healing or tanking when the situation calls for players to be putting their main role first.

This is completely different from just saying "I don't wanna DPS".

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no matter how many time whe say that, people read what they want

And we'll just keep going full circle till next patch.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Just to throw a comparison, a STR geared tank doing an amazing job on defensive cooldowns with 14k HP is still going to require healing more often than a 25k HP Tank doing the exact same job with defensives.

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A tank with more STR means their self-heals will allow them to sustain themselves to the point where a healer doesn't need to watch over them. In comparison to a tank stacking VIT, they'll only slow down the loss of HP and then need more heals. Actions like Souleater and Abyssal Drain scale with attack power, and the self-healing they provide (Souleater adding more potency and Abyssal Drain adding self-healing) makes things a lot easier. Bloodbath heals you based on the physical damage dealt, so buffs like Fight or Flight and Berserk are usually paired up with it.

If you honestly think that a tank with VIT using cooldowns the same way requires less healing to a STR "needs to be watched like a hawk," you haven't played with a proper STR tank.

I'm fine with tanks doing decent DPS and enjoying participating in the race, but when content demands they pull high numbers there starts to be a grey area in what's more important for your tank, his damage or his mitigation.

Example being PLD pretty much being benched in most statics to have a DRK/WAR combo instead because it's superior in the current raid meta, because PLD can't always keep up with those two in DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

And if they can't DPS while also healing in this game, I don't know what to tell them. Maybe they're just awful? White Mage can AFK after applying Regen, Asylum, Medica 2 if needed and just DPS for like half a minute before being assed to switch back to healing unless it's the hardest content in the game that nobody plays.

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Last time I checked, we can't cast Holy and Cure 2 simultaneously.

I dps as much as I can in Cleric stance, but lordy, what I wouldn't do to be able to dps/heal at the same time, without one sacrificing the other
(I feel like I'm talking about this a lot today, but WoW does it best. I can Chain Heal and lava burst with no stance dance terror).

Maybe SE should bring a class like old 1.0 THM back ingame. Best healer (cone AoE heal), good DPS (thanks self-heal and many dots and debuffs) and decent tank (was able to tank Dodore NM solo) in one class.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Things we have to pay extra for because reasons:

-Minions: Y’shtola, Yda, Papalymo, Urianger.
-Mounts: Sleipnir
-Events: Eternal Bond Gold, Eternal Bond Platinum.
-Dyes: Metallic Red, Metallic Green, Metallic Blue.
-In-game improvements: Extra inventory (AKA retainers)
-Weapons / Armor: Give it some time.]

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I'd like to point out that retainers can now bring you the Metallic Red, Blue, and Green dyes :D

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Originally Posted by Astral145

What the devs need to do is simply get rid of the stance dance nonsense. I can see keeping the OT DPS stance when they don't want to take agro from the MT but at the very least they should combined the DPS and tank stance for Main Tank and lose the dps loss in Tank stance. So that way Tanks can focus on what they need to do and still keep that dps up. They should also allow Vit to be the dmg stat on top of hp gain.

They need to add acc to healers gear and simply get rid of the dps stance. They should also allow mind to be there dmg stat.

The devs can easily work it so that tanks and healers will never do as much dps as damage dealer class. Devs fix your game

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What? Stance dance is a simple *SUPER SIMPLE* mechanic. Might as well ask them to get rid of all oGCDs and stack them into your primary rotation so you don't have to click as many buttons...

Same stuff different thread.

You gotta do good dps in savage/endgame(u get leeway in non savage stuff ofc). It is what it is. You gotta do a rotation. They are addressing some things like tanks BiS being crafted accesories. Step up and attempt to excel at the way the game is designed, or just don't do the content. Do other content. Or if you find some other game is designed more to your liking, play that game. Ya not gonna change the fundamental design of the dev team though, especially when they are enjoying success. (this is not the equivalent of saying they do not monitor the progress of their project and make changes). One could also wait for the inevitable nerfs that come with the next tier. They've made it pretty clear from the direction they headed with the expansion, boss fights, abilities given to the classes from 50-60, etc. on what kind of game they will present and what they expect from the classes.

I love pressing all of my shiny buttons and throwing pretty stars at my enemies and allies. It's tons of fun to try to push myself to do both healing and dps efficiently and it really helps make the healer role feel super exciting and diverse outside of just pressing cure all of the time.

That said, harassing party members about it is not the way to go. Honestly though healer dps harassment is super super rare so it's not really a huge widespread problem.