Current state of MCH?

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I don't think many games have a design philosophy that all designated supports would make a great team. On that factor, I'm not against the incompatability of MCH/BRD on the same team and I don't feel that them being weak together is a design flaw or a backed into a corner move, it would be a different story if they just made us straight up DPS and got rid of the support tag.

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Support is a very loose term for this game, it's just a resource battery. DPS battery is more appropriate ^^

Now if we were talking about actual support that involves buffing, debuffing, CCing etc (would be awesome) then I would agree with you but we arn't they just have a couple of buttons to press now and again. 99% of the time they are dps doing dps rotations.

It is just poor design imo.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Support is a very loose term for this game, it's just a resource battery. DPS battery is more appropriate ^^

Now if we were talking about actual support that involves buffing, debuffing, CCing etc (would be awesome) then I would agree with you but we arn't they just have a couple of buttons they press now and again.

It is just poor design imo.

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I dunno, I feel that with the spread of 2/2/4 for raid content that it's not terrible to split the 4 into a variant, namely support. Battery or not, they they are the only ones who possess the capability and are brought for it. I don't see the problem with 2 tanks, 2 healers, 3 dps and a "battery" over 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 dps.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I dunno, I feel that with the spread of 2/2/4 for raid content that it's not terrible to split the 4 into a variant, namely support. Battery or not, they they are the only ones who possess the capability and are brought for it. I don't see the problem with 2 tanks, 2 healers, 3 dps and a "battery" over 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 dps.

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Good point.

The issue comes when it seems that any new physical ranged jobs are now going to have to be shoehorned into this battery role, and none of them are going to work with each other.

Can you think of one reason MCH needed to have regen on the turret? Or why BRD needed their regen songs? I sure can't. Healers have tools for mp management, why was a class needed to give them mp instead of their own skills? I just cannot get my head around the choices they made.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Good point.

The issue comes when it seems that any new physical ranged jobs are now going to have to be shoehorned into this battery role, and none of them are going to work with each other.

Can you think of one reason MCH needed to have regen on the turret? I sure can't.

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I would assume that MCH were given turret regens for the sake of a more or less "guaranteed" role having more than 1 job to fill it. Funnily enough the classes are still incredibly similar, but I see where they were coming from when making a second battery.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I would assume that MCH were given turret regens for the sake of a more or less "guaranteed" role having more than 1 job to fill it. Funnily enough the classes are still incredibly similar, but I see where they were coming from when making a second battery.

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Well i sure don't they just gave a new coat of paint to an old job imo.

Yeah sure the way they do damage may be different but the role they are supposed to fill does exactly the same thing. It just goes to show how none support these jobs are in the fact the only real difference between them is really the way they deal damage.

I can roll with it, but i can understand why people are frustrated and annoyed.

Oh and SE better had give MCH a proper animation on Wildfire -_-

I think it is safe to assume that BRD and MCH aren't going to stay the only batteries for long. Imagine that they would add melee support, dancer could do that etc., and it would suffer the same penalty MCH with BRD do. Even now when you get several BRDs and MCHs in DF groups it can cause problems with dps checks, with melee support it could get even worse, as low dps classes require better skill to do required amount of damage.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Oh and SE better had give MCH a proper animation on Wildfire -_-

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And if it could get a little bit more casual friendly, like exploding several times or been triggered before immunity phases that would be great too. Option to blow it up manualy wouldn't be bad either.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Can you think of one reason MCH needed to have regen on the turret? Or why BRD needed their regen songs? I sure can't. Healers have tools for mp management, why was a class needed to give them mp instead of their own skills? I just cannot get my head around the choices they made.

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If MCH was going to compete with BRD for a spot, they'd need to be able to fill in the same niche and become interchangable. They already shot themselves in the leg back in 2.0 when they made BRD the only job capable of giving other players tp/mp regen, whihc may or may not be necessary for the content at hand. The other was not make any jobs have it, and that BRD/MCH is interchangable with both casters in regards of a ranged dps.

For the record, I'm fine with them being the "support dps" niche or whatever they want to call it. They need to homogenize their utility and purpose if they're gonna compete with roles (hence both of them having regen). I'm not fine with them homogenizing their gameplay though, which is mostly the case in regards to BRd/MCH's general gameplay outside of cooldowns.

Is their gameplay similar though? I mean obviously they both have WM/GB cast times, but that's like saying SMN and BLM are similar because they both have cast times.

MCH keeps up 1 buff and 1 DoT, then has a 1-2-3 RNG combo with ammo interaction.
BRD keeps up 1 buff and 2 DoTs, spams heavy shot and relies on procs from DoTs for ogcds.

Maintaining uptime on some buff is par for the course for jobs in this game, that's just their all round homogeneous approach to all classes.

The way I see it the main difference is how they deal with movement - MCH's base rotation (split-slug-clean) is RNG, but they can use ammo and bank ogcds to have guaranteed instant casts when needed, BRD can just spam heavy shot but must rely on RNG for their instants to proc (Straighter Shot/Bloodletter reset).

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Is their gameplay similar though?

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They're both dps jobs that play reactive to procs, maintain a buff, maintain a debuff, and really not much else differentiation beyond that. When you compare BLM and SMN, they have umbral/astral and aetherflow/aethertrail respectively; both persisting mechanics unique to the job and their base rotation. The most you can get out of BRD/MCH is ammunition, which is practically another oGCD that gets used up without a thought and as soon as it comes up because it's free damage and tp, especially since only two skills that MCH use actually get any additional effect from ammo that isn't the base 20 potency. There's very little turret interaction that it becomes an afterthought until you need to use regen or hypercharge (which is a cooldown and isn't necessarily part of their main gameplay, or is "part of it" as much as ninja poison and FoF is to monk). Of course it also doesn't help that GB/WM are functionally the exact, same abilties, alongside other carbon copies like quick notch/spread shot and Wide volley/Grenado (both of which could've been opted out for an AoE attachment or something)

Even if you were to go by their movement, that shouldn't be their only differentiation. I won't argue that MCH is more motile than BRD, but I don't move that much to begin with unless mechanics call for it anyway, so it becomes less of a defining trait.

I also don't understand why people refer to "banking ogcds" to have abilities to use when they can't stand still...because those oGCDs are going to be used when it comes off cooldown anyway and aren't on the GCD timer.

Having played both jobs, leveling both casters and a DRG, as well as and being anxious about MCH being a new job, the best way I can sum it up is that I'm disappointed that this is the final version of MCH that we got (especially in relation to BRD and how they got slapped with wm) compared to what they had initially previewed with ammunition usage and various attachments.

All this talk has me second guessing my first job of bard. Im only lvl 35 and thinking of going something else. I am enjoying this game so much as a nub. But why waste all this time if i get to end game and its the worse job in the universe ( about the equivelant in rl of being a greenhorne under captain keith )
Will it be worth it ???

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I also don't understand why people refer to "banking ogcds" to have abilities to use when they can't stand still...because those oGCDs are going to be used when it comes off cooldown anyway and aren't on the GCD timer.

Having played both jobs, leveling both casters and a DRG, as well as and being anxious about MCH being a new job, the best way I can sum it up is that I'm disappointed that this is the final version of MCH that we got (especially in relation to BRD and how they got slapped with wm) compared to what they had initially previewed with ammunition usage and various attachments.

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Banking is probably not quite the right word, but overall MCH's slightly better mobility is a function of two things. More ogcds in general which makes it more likely you will have one up to cover a period where movement is required, and ammo which is a controllable resource.

I do agree that they could do a lot more with ammo system - ammo is basically the MCH shtick. That said I don't think they tried particularly hard to make the MCH extremely distinct, the job exists more to just give someone who wants to play as the battery another aesthetic and gameplay option - if you don't like the court jester aesthetic BRDs have or think they're too DoT reliant, then at least you have MCH as an option.

If the 'support ranged DPS/mana battery' is a clearly defined role they want to have, then it's inevitable that there will eventually be more than one take on the archtype. It feels no different to me than how PLD WAR DRK are basically slightly different ways for you to tank, or BLM SLM are two different takes on casters.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

If MCH was going to compete with BRD for a spot, they'd need to be able to fill in the same niche and become interchangable. They already shot themselves in the leg back in 2.0 when they made BRD the only job capable of giving other players tp/mp regen, whihc may or may not be necessary for the content at hand. The other was not make any jobs have it, and that BRD/MCH is interchangable with both casters in regards of a ranged dps.

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I agree, it's like giving raid bosses a debuff that only a certain dps job can dispel and calling it supporting.

Such a class would still be necessary and it's counterparts would need that dispel too, doesn't make it a great idea though. This is the BRD and MCH position atm, it's just their button is this dispel disguised as a regen.

I agree with you on their homogenization for sure, the line between them is so wonky it might aswell be called a squiggle.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Banking is probably not quite the right word, but overall MCH's slightly better mobility is a function of two things. More ogcds in general which makes it more likely you will have one up to cover a period where movement is required, and ammo which is a controllable resource.

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I wouldn't consider ammo "controllable" because you're going to use it as soon as it comes up for dps anyway. oGCDs don't help with "movement" because you're going to be using them as they come off cooldown, regardless of if you're moving or not; My head graze, unless I need it for an interrupt, is going to be used every 25 seconds when it comes up.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I do agree that they could do a lot more with ammo system - ammo is basically the MCH shtick. That said I don't think they tried particularly hard to make the MCH extremely distinct, the job exists more to just give someone who wants to play as the battery another aesthetic and gameplay option - if you don't like the court jester aesthetic BRDs have or think they're too DoT reliant, then at least you have MCH as an option.

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It's not so much that they're too DoT reliant, but MCH has to manage a DoT too, and BRDs practically got one button to reapply their DoTs anyway. I've considered DoTs on both jobs to be an afterthought because it's a given to keep them reapplied regardless of your dps job.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

If the 'support ranged DPS/mana battery' is a clearly defined role they want to have, then it's inevitable that there will eventually be more than one take on the archtype. It feels no different to me than how PLD WAR DRK are basically slightly different ways for you to tank, or BLM SLM are two different takes on casters.

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Again, I'm fine with being the "mana battery" role, but I don't want to be a reskinned BRD. Even when you compare the three tanks or both casters, their dynamics to how they tank/dps is distinctively different from each other (especially in regards to tanks with how they manage their own dps and cooldowns, such as deliverance stances, dork arts mana, all that). If you were to ask most people to compare BRD/MCH, they'd probably say "They play similar to each other", while you can't necessarily say that with BLM or SMN because their base rotations have entirely different mechanics and foundation behind it , as well as more layers added past level 50 (enochian and DWT) to give them more depth (compared to BRD and MCH who get the same toggle-stance at 52, and abilities that do not have much interaction that add onto how the job players, but rather be straight up oGCDs that require the aforementioned stance).

When you try to level up an arcanist and then a thermatruge, you'll feel how distinctively different they are to each other, especially as you level and get past 50. Same with the tanks once you start pushing to maximizing their performance (DPSing)

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

I agree, it's like giving raid bosses a debuff that only a certain dps job can dispel and calling it supporting.

Such a class would still be necessary and it's counterparts would need that dispel too, doesn't make it a great idea though. This is the BRD and MCH position atm, it's just their button is this dispel disguised as a regen.

I agree with you on their homogenization for sure, the line between them is so wonky it might aswell be called a squiggle.

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They've already fallen into this trap with other jobs due to just how good they are. WAR and DRG are practically the "to-go" within their roles anyway because they're just to good at what they're doing (OT in regards to warrior) alongside their unique utilities to pass up (storm's path and disembowel when you consider that you're going to have to have a MCH/BRD in the party). It's fine to have party synergy (like a warrior doing storm's eye so a ninja can opt out of using DE and use AE in it's place), but especially for warrior, their role as the off-tank is practically irreplaceable because of storm's path and off tank dps (which is a separate thing on it's own, since the game's meta requires everyone to be constantly pushing dps). DRG not so much, but you'd be lying if you said that a DRG won't provide more than a MNK/NIN to table.

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Originally Posted by Magicmike

All this talk has me second guessing my first job of bard. Im only lvl 35 and thinking of going something else. I am enjoying this game so much as a nub. But why waste all this time if i get to end game and its the worse job in the universe ( about the equivelant in rl of being a greenhorne under captain keith )
Will it be worth it ???

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What matters is that you enjoy it. As it stands, BRD is fine as it is as far as performance is concerned. Just that some people don't like how BRD plays in comparison to MCH, or just don't like how BRD plays in general. It becomes debatable at 52 because of WM changing how they play, and you won't nesescarly find an alternative to playing a traditional ranged dps (instant cast with auto attacks from range) in this game because they gave that ability to MCH as well. Even tehn, you could just play without wanderer's minuet when you get that far, provided you play your class really well it's not that big of a detriment to skip out on wanderer's minuet on the road to 60.

MCH and BRD definitely have similar play style, I will not argue that. However, both feel different enough that I feel like I am playing a completely different job. So I can only complain but so much on that regard, especially since MCH is still the most fun job I have played in this game. Sure ammo could of been more creative, but at the same time, I can imagine it being hard to develop and not be over complicated. I am sure the developers tried to make some unique functions to MCH that they could not make work. Sure, MCH overall could of had some flavor added to it in retrospect, but at the end of the day, I really enjoy the job for what it is.

It is really the support functions that I felt like they dropped the ball on. Not saying either MCH or BRD's support functions are bad. However, they cater better to specific set ups in raids which does not make them feel interchangeable if you are doing hardcore progression. At the same time, most people are not hardcore progression players and those players are always going to take in specific jobs to get ahead no matter how balanced the jobs are. So it is kind of a moot point. In more retrospect, they should of homogenized their support capabilities more.

Only real big change I want from MCH anyways is an option to remove the aesthetic of Gauss Barrel.

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Originally Posted by Magicmike

All this talk has me second guessing my first job of bard. Im only lvl 35 and thinking of going something else. I am enjoying this game so much as a nub. But why waste all this time if i get to end game and its the worse job in the universe ( about the equivelant in rl of being a greenhorne under captain keith )
Will it be worth it ???

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Well in my current "is this DPS class boring" chart based on what I have leveled bard is slightly more boring than summoner and in between mnk/lnc being the most fun and thm which is the most boring . mnk/lnc ---- smn - brd ---- thm. As always other people may think differently.

One of the nice things about bard, though, is that the glamour game is strong with the unique gearsets and huge weapons.

Well, I hit 52 today on my mch, and I'm not sure I want to continue leveling it now. I was having the time of my life before that though, which actually made me pretty damn mad that I don't like the GB playstyle. I tried going in optimistic and ran some dungeons, but with GB it just feels too wonky. It pretty much removed/mostly removed some of my favorite aspects of the class. This is really frustrating to me because for awhile now I've been having a hard time finding a class that felt "right" for me. I've got 6 level 60's and everything else but drk at 51 or higher, but for some reason nothing has ever "clicked" with me like some classes in other MMO's.

I may continue to 60 just to hit 60, but I think I may be coming to the realization that maybe this game just isn't for me. If they just removed GB and buffed the class to make up the difference I would consider this class a new main (it would be "new main forever" if the turrets were actual pets too, but the immobile turrets weren't a dealbreaker). Hell, playing it over the last week or two had me excited to log in every day, which has not been the case in a long time. I guess I'll just take a break from the game for a long while. If they remove GB I'll be back in a heartbeat though.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

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I don't want to say it aloud, but there are MCHs and BRDs who play without GB and WM either casualy or as matter of protest... unless you care about your dps, you might consider it an option.

The issue is that bards have the same, maybe even worse, restriction when it comes to movement and one job can't be changed without the other.

Personally I would welcome if MCH (and BRD) had damaged scaled up, but I would keep GB. You still have to stop quite a lot if you want to focus on your skills, so it isn't hard to get used to it. Also rapid fire and when we get a proc allow us to shoot while moving.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I don't want to say it aloud, but there are MCHs and BRDs who play without GB and WM either casualy or as matter of protest... unless you care about your dps, you might consider it an option.

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It crossed my mind for a second, but honestly I wouldn't feel comfortable not playing to the best of my abilities.

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The issue is that bards have the same, maybe even worse, restriction when it comes to movement and one job can't be changed without the other.

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Well, there's no reason they couldn't change brd too. I mean, brd did go years w/o having WM.

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Personally I would welcome if MCH (and BRD) had damaged scaled up, but I would keep GB. You still have to stop quite a lot if you want to focus on your skills, so it isn't hard to get used to it. Also rapid fire and when we get a proc allow us to shoot while moving.

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I would want GB/WM removed completely. I just think tacking on the casts is absurd. If I wanted to play a class that casts spells and can't AA I would just play my level 60 smn or level up my blm which was already 51 before I started mch. As for playing with GB, being less mobile is annoying (I was moving and casting before for various reasons without skipping a beat on my dps), but not the only issue I have with it. Another, or rather the biggest, issue I have with it is how wonky it feels to me. Having such a proc dependant class (and having those procs be instant) combined with the cast times makes it surprisingly not fluid. It just feels very unnatural to me. I actually wonder if brd would be more fun to mw simply for the fact that it sounds like it is more straight casting. Though really it's the pre-52 non-casting that I want.

I don't know, it's just not for me I guess.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

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A traditional "physical ranged" job would be really nice. They slapped WM/GB on both jobs which pretty much threw that out of the window. Every range is practically a (faux) caster now in concept.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

combined with the cast times makes it surprisingly not fluid. It just feels very unnatural to me. I actually wonder if brd would be more fun to mw simply for the fact that it sounds like it is more straight casting. Though really it's the pre-52 non-casting that I want.

I don't know, it's just not for me I guess.

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Both jobs unfortunately have procs on skills that you need to play re-actively to. BRD has less reactive procs, but they still have a cooldown reset on an oGCD that can't be used during cast times, as well as a skill that has a cast time that isn't on the GCD. You're inevitably going to waste some GCD timers.