In a couple of weeks? That would be a completely reasonable thing to ask.
Less than twenty-four hours after the content came out? Completely unreasonable and pretty rude to boot.
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11-12-2015, 04:28 PMLukha
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11-12-2015, 04:34 PMCGMidlanderHow is it rude? If the PF listing is clear about what it's looking for, then there's no issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukha
It's self-regulating in that if it's truly unreasonable, people won't join it. It will have a tough time filling up.
The person in charge of the PF listing isn't forcing anybody to join.
How is it a disservice?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddAxel
1) Inexperienced person looks at PF and sees a bunch of listings
2) Inexperienced person does not join PF listing that they do not meet the requirements for
3) Inexperienced person joins a learning party listing instead
4) If there is no learning party listing, inexperienced person makes one
5) Done
It's not this:
1) Inexperienced person looks at PF and sees a bunch of listings
2) Inexperienced person sees a listing they are not qualified for, but the listing has magical powers and pulls the inexperienced person in against their will
3) Inexperienced person joins party and wipes to mechanics they are expected to know already, as mentioned in the PF listing
4) Poor inexperienced person gets kicked out. How rude.
Especially on the first day of content release, it should be super easy to find or fill up a learning party PF listing. -
11-12-2015, 04:37 PMAethaeryn
I mean, does one person dying to that mechanic make everyone instantly die or something? Or are all of the mechanics leading up to that point so difficult that it'd really be holding the group back? There's a big difference between a group with one person not knowing a mechanic and the group jump rope that comes from everyone being new. It takes people weeks or longer to learn stuff like coil/savage as a group, but 7 experienced players can teach it to one (competent) new player in a matter of hours. Most of this game's difficulty comes from the group jump rope mechanics and gimmicks.
I don't really care what you do with your PF, but I'm not really surprised a few people got upset with you either for having that message there the first day. Regardless, it's your choice, and you should pull up your big boy britches and own up to the decisions you make. Players are always going to try and weasel their way into your PF regardless of the experience you ask for in advance. This is nothing new. -
11-12-2015, 04:43 PMLambdafish
On my server, 10mins after the patch released, we had a PF that said "Thorden EX clear, please know all phases and don't suck." Obviously this was a joke and a troll, but its sad that it was pre-emptively parodying exactly what you are doing. Do what you like with your PF, but don't expect sympathy when people don't like your destructive behavior. If you want to get the clear on day 1, form a static and run with people you know, but if everyone had your mindset then we would have a PF full of pts that exclude people who literally just logged on and unlocked the content, and they wouldn't be able to do it (hyperbolic I know, but not wrong). This is what happened with Bismarck EX to a lesser extent because of its DPS check (I remember it being hell), but its completely unnecessary here.
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11-12-2015, 04:56 PMAshkendorOn the off chance the charge doesn't carry you into the Death Wall™ you get a vuln stack, and it's a pretty hard-hitting fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethaeryn
Perhaps that's exactly what OP is trying to do. I've had raid statics in other games that had their beginnings in pugs. Putting together a team that's all at the same point in the content seems like a perfectly reasonable use of PF to me. I don't see how it's destructive at all to exclude people that don't know the content to where he knows it to yet, new or not. Right now, what he and the other people in his party want is progress; if he keeps allowing people that haven't even been into the fight to join his party, he'll just end up teaching the first phase to people over and over and over again. That's kinda sorta counterproductive to the whole progress thing, yanno?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
My static went in for a lockout tonight and we have a few people that are having difficulty with the charge mechanic. We end up losing at least 1 person to a charge every pull. I can see how having people that flat out didn't know the charge phase would be detrimental because it's hard to explain before you've seen it. Even once you've seen it, it can be hard to discern the safe spots at first. -
11-12-2015, 05:04 PMLego3400
You're a jerk. Wait a month before demanding everyone knows part of the fight. Day one is not the day to be concenerd about it.
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11-12-2015, 05:06 PMBreathlessTaoTherein you answered your own question, in regards to this particular case anyway. 3-4 minutes, extremely easy, takes a few tries to get it right - basically you're saying you don't have ~20minutes extra to maybe a new people or two to learn it, and instead you're subjecting yourself to negative opinions (they aren't entirely unjust), and a potentially much longer time than that to fill up your party. With a piece of content that indeed was not even a day old. Yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
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11-12-2015, 05:18 PMLambdafishI'm in no way saying OP can't do this, its his PF and he is entitled to what he wants, but I'm saying that it sets a precedence of how players can (and will) act. I remember back in Bismarck when I could not get into any competent party because of where I was in the fight, something caused by bad DPS rather than my own ability as a tank. What OP is doing here is the same exclusion based on what the player has achieved rather than skill, and it doesn't create a healthy community, on day 1 no less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
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11-12-2015, 05:41 PMSeraphynaOn day 1 content... I so love these comments. Must know the ins and outs of a fight on release day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Please tell me, what koolaid you have been drinking again? -
11-12-2015, 07:06 PMStupiduglytaru
Majority of these people replying in this thread obviously just love to waste other peoples time, have you ever actually experienced trying to progress a fight via pf?
How many complete incompetent randoms how you had joined that can't grasp the simplistic mechanic even after the 10th attempt?
The op is right to put whatever they want its their pf not yours, all these negative comments and general abuse towards them you should be ashamed of yourselves. -
11-12-2015, 07:18 PMMeiUshuthere is nothing wrong with what you want to do but you should remember that YOU too needed a few tries and that YOU too wasted the time of others...right ? dont act as if you were above now that you passed the first small step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
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11-12-2015, 07:39 PMBodhicitta
Yeah, people like the OP ruin this game. To see this mentality is so widespread makes me want to not resub. These are the same people that will cry about low populations when people leave but of course they will blame SE.
And I don't find it excusable to be a dick just because something is yours. When I sold my last house (an actual financial asset, unlike a worthless video game) I had several "open house" events in which we had people walking in that didn't look like they could afford a half-a-million dollar home. So what, house still got sold. If I can have a good attitude dealing with a serious financial situation then you can do the same when dealing with a freaking video-game.
Masking rudeness behind polite language doesn't stop it from being rude either. In those screenshots you are basically telling the guy "Hey thanks for being honest man, totally appreciate it. But fuck you :)" -
11-12-2015, 08:16 PMAldoraIt’s not like he’s “telling his guests to get the heck out of his house” (which you’ve mentioned in your previous version of this post (^_~ ) ), because that would mean that he would’ve invited that person to the “party” in the first place. But, in his case, he created a party exclusive to a certain group of people. In the “open house” version of your example, you were basically allowing anyone to enter your house, without “checking their financial status” before hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhicitta
Even though it’s not viewed at as being nice towards the rest of the community (and that’s putting it mildly), the OP is in his right to ask for players with experience for the content he’s trying to tackle with his group. He is also in his rights to deny people from joining the group with tackling said content.
There is another thread about this same subject (unfortunately) called “Blocking first timers from the PF”, but the essence of these two threads is the same.
The party in question wishes to work on a specific tactic/mechanic of the battle and requests that its party members have experience up to that point, then that’s fine. It is considered to be rude if you enter a party if you don’t match the “requirements” set by the party.
It’s like crashing a party without being invited.
However! If you see a party where they ask for experienced players that you wish to join, but don’t meet their requirements, it’s perfectly fine to ask the leader of that party if you could join their party, for instance because you are confident with your own skills.
It never hurts to ask. If they give you their consent to join, then they’ve invited you to their group and will be “responsible” for you. If for some reason, you do not meet their expectations, then it’s on them (since they’ve invited you to the group in the end).
But, if they refuse, then so be it. You might be a fast learner, or confident that you can clear the content. It’s still their decision in the end.
It’s not so much that “people like the OP” are ruining the game, it’s the lack of communication with each other and respect towards one another that ruins a community.
So, in short. Communicate with each other. Treat each other the way you wish to be treated yourself. Respect is something you earn by showing it yourself first.
If i see a party asking for experienced people in order to farm a trial (or clear it) and i know that i’m not experienced with the phase they are referring to, i would respect their wishes and not join it uninvited until i gathered the necessary experience they are requesting of me.
Talk to people and you will be able to find others who will be interested in joining your party. I won’t say that it will be easy. It will take a lot of effort to get people together in order to tackle content, but good fortune comes to those who wait and invest in the effort to learn.
People who don’t feel like putting a lot of effort into learning mechanics or clearing content (referring to people who join parties and expect a win just by tagging along), will find themselves hitting a wall or a ceiling they can’t overcome if they continue like that.
You can only overcome challenges if you work with people, not “against” them. This is basically what an MMO is all about. -
11-12-2015, 08:19 PMTilgungThat isn't what the OP is saying. His PF is basically saying "Hey, we've figured things up to X point after doing this all day. I'd appreciate if you knew up to this point as well so we don't have to start from scratch again".Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphyna
OP's in the right. His PF is very clear about the requirements/expectation and he wasn't asking for people to know well beyond what he was capable of doing himself. Which is what 90% of PF's will be by next week at the latest when people start trying to get carried. -
11-12-2015, 09:41 PMKikosho
Man, remember that long thread about how NA pugs are abysmal compared to JP pugs? Everyone arguing against the OP is the reason it's true.
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11-12-2015, 11:09 PMkuma_aus
Dear NA people, babysitting is part of your PUG problem.
Newsflash, the game isn't only about you. The world doesn't resolve around you. People are going to do stuff that you aren't qualified for. People are allowed to clear content on the very first day it's out even if it means you aren't with them. Learn to respect the Party Finder. You want a healthy PUG enviroment? Respect others wishes, respect the criteria they set. If you are slightly different from what they set, whisper them or ask in party if your difference is alright. If it isn't, suck it up, find a party you are qualified for or make one yourself.
3 hours after the patch hit, Party Finder was already filled with parties looking for practice of certain late fight phases in Thordan on my server. Some were even recruiting for the clear. Did I as a first timer to Thordan try join these parties? Did I cry and complain that people weren't letting me in their "after charge practice" parties? No of course not, I made a first timer party myself since there was none in Party Finder.
People here are saying people who don't let new people to their specific parties are the problem with NA PUG scene. No, not respecting others is a part of your PUG Scene problems.
People are saying that since it's the first day, people aren't allowed to block first timers to their party. You are the problem if you think that. It's the first day, if you're a first timer, make your own first timer party. People are allowed to clear content on the first day.
Do you know what happens when people are unhappy with teaming up with randoms because they always have to play in some manner they never wanted to play in the first place? They end up hating teaming up with randoms and go out of their way to never do stuff with PUGs again.
Is OP "contributing to a very destructive behavior"? Of course not. Expecting someone else to play the game in a way they do not want to is contributing to a very destructive behavior.
Sincerely, an English player on the #1 most popular Japanese Server. -
11-12-2015, 11:19 PMIrie^this so many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuma_aus
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11-12-2015, 11:20 PMSqurilruler
OP used PF as intended. I wonder if someone made a PF looking for a speed run, and someone joined that didn't want to speed run, should they be allowed to join? Is this now acceptable too?
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11-12-2015, 11:48 PMAdamFyi
There is no problem with requesting experienced players on the Party Finder even if it's on the first day. Players that start up learning parties on day 1 are likely to have aready passed through those phases. So, no trouble there.
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Because apparently, something like this is too hard? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bodhicitta
http://puu.sh/hkzNI/92846c33fd.jpg -
11-12-2015, 11:56 PMElHeggunteWell, people weren't taking issue with how he was using PF, they were taking issue with the timing. You can build your PF group however you want, but you should expect people to be upset with you if you're going to have progress requirements less than 24 hours into a patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squrilruler
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11-13-2015, 12:03 AMSqurilrulerWhy is time relevant? If no one is up to meeting his terms, then his party won't fill. It is rude to join a party with stated requirements that you don't meet.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElHeggunte
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11-13-2015, 12:14 AMBhuni
Lol it's quite hilarious seeing all the negative posts regarding this the entitlement is strong.
I've not even touched Thordan EX yet but when I do I'm not gonna hop into a party that's experienced in the fight and expect a fast easy kill it's just rude, my time isn't more important than anyone else's.
Though at least these folks were honest that they were fully fresh to the fight I'll give them that.
If they aren't capable of setting up a PF of their own with their own requirements then I'm sorry but stamping your feet and crying exclusion!! Isn't gonna get you your clear anytime soon.
Get out there and start recruiting like minded people with the same experience or lack of instead of expecting the community to hold your hand they don't owe you anything. -
11-13-2015, 12:23 AMKit-KatNo it's not, but this is 2015, everyone is upset by everything. It is your party, your rules, PF exists for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
For those posting "Yes, it's on first day" and so, get over it. You're not forced to join a specific party in PF and you shouldn't complain about it. He took his time to learn that first phase, why can't you? do you really need to be carried and taught by people who already know/did/in progress of finishing the fight? That whole entitlement is bullcrap tbh. Like you said, it's the first day, just make your own learning party and people will most likely join so you don't have to bother about what other people do with their lives. -
11-13-2015, 12:35 AMElHeggunteLess than 24 hours into a new patch when most of the playerbase had spent all day at school and/or at work only to come home, log on, and find someone already asking for experience on the brand new content? I could see how such a sight could be disheartening and garner the response that it did. I'm actually surprised the OP didn't expect people to be upset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squrilruler
Of course, but whether or not his party even fills doesn't matter. What matters is why people were upset with him. And that matters because that's essentially what the thread is about: the OP looking for a reason why he got the responses he did.Quote:
If no one is up to meeting his terms, then his party won't fill.
I never said it wasn't. I'm actually on his side, in so far as making his own party however he wants and not wanting to repeatedly reteach the same part of the fight over and over. I just don't think the OP should be surprised that people responded the way they did.Quote:
It is rude to join a party with stated requirements that you don't meet.
I don't think the OP was wrong, but if I were in his shoes I would have waited a day or two before expecting a certain level of progress. -
11-13-2015, 12:44 AMAltijacek
To clarify, OP did not act rudely, but managed to come across as a jerk for YES, having an unreasonable expectation (which limits him or herself more than anything). The expectation can come across as rude or disheartening to those that are just logging in because of other obligations. However, these are his rules and he has every right to make them and people should respect those rules if they enter the party.
To the OP, just realize that you're limiting yourself. Since it's still new, the people trying it are likely decent players. You might find a better replacement that learns quickly. And if you're that good at the charging phase, mark yourself and tell him to follow you. Problem solved in a heartbeat,seeing as the first phase is a joke. He will learn it after two or three attempts if he is a good player and if he's following you for charges it can't fail, at least according to you since you perfected this part. -
11-13-2015, 12:46 AMSqurilrulerPeople are essentially saying "You aren't playing the way I want to, therefore, you are in the wrong." Which is totally unfair. Their response should not be an accepted thing since OP is using PF exactly the way it was meant to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElHeggunte
Kuma_Aus put a nice post together that is exactly correct. -
11-13-2015, 01:08 AMJamillion
Your PF, your rules. Just don't expect the party to fill right away. I think it's impractical but not rude. However if you have someone join and kick them for one mistake assuming they lied that would be a jerk move.
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11-13-2015, 01:14 AMRyelQuote:
Originally Posted by Altijacek
Why does this matter? Like seriously why at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElHeggunte
Look at the posts in this thread, they aren't just disagreeing but instead many posters are trying to paint the OP as a villain for setting requirements for a party they created in the PF. It shouldn't matter if they put up the party 30 seconds after the patch dropped, if they created the party they are welcome to set whatever requirements they wish just as players are welcome to not join the party.
Limiting themselves? Should have waited longer?
Who cares?
I see terms like "unreasonable" and "too early' being tossed around but Is every party that goes up in the PF now subject to a review by committee? Do we now have to ask if it's okay to set requirements or Is there some master list of when it's okay to put up parties for content and up to which phase that I'm unaware of now?
If so it would be great if someone could link it.
If the OP wants to create a party and weed through players for 3 hours until they find one they want then they should be welcome to.
I'm sure all of those "decent players" out there that are brand new to the fight and couldn't join the party were just as capable of hitting the 5 buttons and a few keystrokes to set up a learning party, i can promise it takes less effort than trying to argue their case in /tells and getting upset about it.
Would i personally have made a party like that? No, but i think the OP completely had the right to and anyone with conflicting views had the same opportunity to make a party of their own if they wished. -
11-13-2015, 01:16 AMTyla_Esmeraude
It is your PF and all but I think since the content is new, majority of people haven't tried it out yet so the way I see it you could lose more time trying to find someone from the small pool of players that have gotten farther into the fight than teaching someone. The first few mins of the fight are not even that hard to follow. I'd understand if you were about to clear it but if you are still midphase, I don't think the learning curve is that hard to teach new people. Then again I have a lot of patience and I'm very understanding, so I would handle it differently.
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11-13-2015, 01:26 AMIris_BP
Although it's your choice I honestly see no reason to ask for experience in the first part of the fight. It literally takes 2 minutes to explain:
- Look away on the dragons gaze;
- don't stand near others when purle mark is above your head;
- gather for shared damage AoE;
- gather in center after heel;
- break chains, stand near a pillar if noone is there;
- dps hard;
- go to waymark to avoid charges;
- only dps the knight with a sword oath (can change);
- you see a blue prey mark? run far away from the party.
(if tank is new add CD for tankbuster).
That's it, it's not hard to explain at all. Meteors are a completely different animal, people have to have experience with them, but it just needs practice.
What bugs me the most is the ridiculous ilvl requirements form people. If you put ilvl205 in PF be ready to sit there forever, waiting for people who cleared savage enough times... -
11-13-2015, 01:42 AMmelisande
Gotta love that western culture attitude! /s
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11-13-2015, 01:42 AMFelisOn day 1 there should be still many players new to that fight. So an own learning party for stage 1 should get full really fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by seraseth
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11-13-2015, 02:08 AMAvidria
In general, no, it isn't wrong or terribly unreasonable to want a group with people on the same phase as you. It's your PF, you can do what you want.
On day one of a patch? Still not wrong, since again it's your group and you can do what you like with it, but you shouldn't be terribly surprised if your party fills slowly or if you get some confused or vexed responses. Not so say that I think the guy who tried to join even without meeting the requirements was right - he wasn't. But the other comments aren't what I'd call unreasonable considering a lot of people probably hadn't even gotten the chance to touch the new content. I know I didn't even have a chance to log in until a solid 12 hours after the patch came out since released at 3AM on a weekday. :/ -
11-13-2015, 02:13 AMSqurilrulerWhat is preventing you from starting your own PF then? Why is his PF "unreasonable"? Is his group the only one in PF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidria
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11-13-2015, 02:48 AMGarotte14
It's this sense of entitlement that people expect to be carried. You are most definitely not wrong. Hell in JP, its common place to break the learning parties in pf down by phases. You don't join a group that has progressed farther than you period. If you do, you get blacklisted by the entire server. It doesn't matter if it's day 12, day 1, or 5 hours in. It's not an excuse to expect others to halt their progression just because you were at work and couldn't get on right away. You can start your own learning party, wait 10 minutes for someone to create a learning party, ask your FC, etc. You have plenty of options and none of them require you forcing others to take a step back just so you can catch up. Its so frustrating when people expect everyone to respect their time, yet refuse to respect the time of others which is exactly what this is.
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11-13-2015, 02:57 AMAethaerynNot everyone is comfortable leading parties while tackling new content. I'm one of those people, but I'd just wait for a new group to show up rather than trying to convince OP's group that I can learn fast and am not terrible. I mean, I guess you could put "looking for someone who wants to lead" in the PF...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squrilruler
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11-13-2015, 03:10 AMKali-ka
Just wanted to echo the sentiment of the OP not doing anything wrong. If you want people in your party at or past a certain point in a fight, that is perfectly fine and no one else should be butthurt over you asking for that. There is absolutely nothing stopping those people from creating their own PF for wherever they are in the fight. I would also go so far as to assume they would do the same thing when they progress and not take anyone completely new.
What I DON'T agree with is a PF I saw on my server BEFORE the fight was even out. It was asking for people to join who were of a certain high ilvl AND have AS4 on farm. Not only did I find that incredibly elitist, but insulting to anyone since that person was saying everyone else's skill level isn't good enough FOR AN EASIER FIGHT. Yeah...I get that you don't want any scrubs in your party...but come on! -
11-13-2015, 03:21 AMMagisI literally made a PF titled: "First time Thordan, let's try it out".Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethaeryn
Got 8 people and we all went in. Step out of your comfort zone then... jeeze this isn't IRL where you have to talk to people and look em in the eye. It's just text. -
11-13-2015, 03:39 AMAethaerynJoining a PF at all is already stepping out of my comfort zone. >_> Too many bad experiences with jerks. I usually have enough friends around to not need PF, though. Since content is still new, it shouldn't really be necessary to force yourself to lead if you aren't comfortable with it. At the time of me writing this, there's a PF up requiring certain experience, and a full learning party. Not even prime time yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
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11-13-2015, 03:45 AMMagisDon't go in thinking it as leading. State that it's a blind run, if someone gives tips take em, and just chill. I wasn't really giving any orders until we wiped a few times and started formulating a strategy. Someone else could have chimed in instead of me though and give suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethaeryn