No I know what you meant and I stand by it what I said. I don't think we'll see much of him until it's time to head into the next expansion. I predict that he will be more important and will hate us as people not as warriors of light...I only hope that he doesn't somehow turn to our side and worship us at some point in the next expansion. Grudgingly working alongside us, fine, just....please don't have him go "THE WOL IS MAGNIFICENT I AM WRONG", SE, please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick22
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10-07-2015, 01:32 PMAyuhra
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10-07-2015, 03:40 PMBelhi
Strictly speaking Lolorito hates us and while you could call him a villain he's positioned so he's not under the 'bad guy' category. He's a character who we hate but really aren't in a position to do much about. Likewise he is kind of stuck with us.
That said I'd love to humiliate him a little.
Outside of that there are plenty of characters who don't like us for whatever reason. The WoL tends to be a likeable character though so those who hate him or her generally are jerks. -
10-07-2015, 05:12 PMFebrusOnly because the game arbitrarily decides that we must, by default, always do the good, noble and honest thing. Lolorito would have been dead six ways to Sunday by now if most of us had our way, especially at that banquet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
The main reason I'm interested at all in the Warrior of Darkness is because that character (hopefully) will not be bound by some ridiculous chains of nobility that stop him from acting out and speaking up for himself. -
10-07-2015, 05:23 PMFebrusThat's assuming he shows up at all. Omega has been largely ignored by the progression of the story. It was introduced as a possible background reason for why certain key political figures were interested in the dispute over the Cartaneu Flats, but since then It has not been mentioned at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
Also, the land dispute has never been settled. SE has all but completely ignored or pushed aside any Lore related to PvP. Seize is the only new PvP content to be released and it has no lore whatsoever. This is actually why a lot of people on the PvP forums are pissed that SE keeps hanging the "blah, blah, Lore, blah, blah," argument over their heads as an excuse for keeping GC restrictions in place instead of removing them and dramatically improving que times.
We also don't know anything about FFXIV's version of Omega Weapon. We only know that it was built as a means of fighting and defeating Bahamut. from this, we can infer that it was likely built for, and used in, the Allagan war against the Dragons so, it's possible that Omega could come up as a topic in future HW patches. However, if he is, it's just as likely that he would make the Primals even less relevant than they are now. For all we know, Omega was simply built to destroy or capture Primals, not absorb them like Ultima. Assuming Omega was responsible for capturing Bahamut and putting him in the moon, it's hard to believe that any Primals we currently know of would be even remotely close to threatening by comparison. -
10-08-2015, 03:09 AMFenralHaving the only characters who don't like a Mary Sue be portrayed as unsympathetic is also an important part of the Mary Sue trope. Unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
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10-08-2015, 10:39 AMMilesSaintboroguh
You could say the Garlean Empire hate the WOL simply because they're a nuisance in their plans.
Anyways, while the WOL is liked by almost everyone, you also got a handful of people that, at the very least, can't stand to be around them because of how much praise they get. A lot of the crafting quests has you dealing with characters who either see you as an unneeded rival or someone who just got lucky with their successes rather than going through the same growing pains they did. Even in the MSQ, you have a few people calling out the WOL for being a puppet and being said puppet is the only reason people like them. It's not just Illberd that says it; Midgardsomr says to the WOL's face that they're a special snowflake simply because they were picked to be and they're nothing more than that while Ysayle in 2.4 calls the WOL a blind fool for following orders from everyone without seeing the big picture. And, while optional, the Dark Knight quests further shows just how foolish the WOL is for continuing to be everyone's perpetual doormat.
You can have characters oppose the WOL without resorting to hating them.
In most JRPGs, the protagonists are always ones who do the right thing, even if it makes them look stupid, so I would not expect the scene at the banquet to be any different. I also would not get your hopes up about the Warrior of Darkness being different because I have a gut feeling that he will just be the attack dog for the Ascians instead of having his own will. He seems to be nothing more than a counterpart to the Warrior of Light simply to stop them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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10-08-2015, 02:07 PMBelhiWell yeah, the WoL is basically stuck as a good, noble and honest sort but that's the story they wanted to tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I wouldn't call the WoL's actions ridiculous though. Things like killing Lolorito in those situations would have massive consequences. Bad consequences. Its reason vs passion more than nobility vs vengefulness. Taking down Lolorito might even have been noble in a way but it would come at the price of flushing Ul'dah down the toilet when their strength and wealth will almost certainly be needed when Garlemald invades again. Its not like the WoL can take down the Garleans solo.
Its not that the WoL is a Mary Sue but the fact that in general the WoL is a respectful, compassionate and open minded individual that makes it hard to have non jerk not like him/her. The WoL really doesn't have many traits that would inspire hatred in others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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10-08-2015, 02:57 PMFenral
I'm not saying, in this instance at least, that it's a good or a bad thing, just that it is most certainly a thing that is being done.
If, hypothetically, the arrival of the Warrior of Darkness signals the beginning of a much-needed genre shift in the direction of "deconstruction," then we will be able to confirm two things at once: one, that the Warrior of Light at present is indeed intended to be impossibly, obnoxiously good; and two, that the writers understood that and wanted to use that to a deliberate and subversive effect.
Right now, though, we're still seeing the trope (whatever you wanna call it) played almost completely straight, with every blemish ultimately turned towards reinforcing the WoL's overall perfectly perfect perfection. -
10-08-2015, 04:17 PMGrayve
I disagree that there is a much needed genre shift to "deconstruction". There are plenty of works out there deconstructing classic fantasy, I am enjoying the old school approach of classic old style fantasy. ( can't quote cause on iPad)
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10-08-2015, 04:18 PMFebrusWhat I'm referring to as ridiculous (besides the entire notion that someone wants to frame the guy who has been protecting their entire way of life almost every day of the week and twice on sundays) is the fact that during the whole affair, we don't move, protest, say a word, or even gesture in any meaningful way. We get slapped in irons and pouted on the floor while everyone else goes on and on about whatever. We do not behave like a "character" of any type in that instance. The way we acted, or rather didn't act, made us seem like a neglected weapon. It was like, "oh, jeez. Someone left this gun unattended and now the Sultana is dead.... Welp, nothing for it. Better make sure the safety is on and store it properly in the gun rack."Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
It's not so much that I expect the WoL to go on a rampage or something, and I know it wouldn't have really "fit" with our character to kill Lolorito (though the simplest solutions are often the best ones. Really, the bigger problem is one of witnesses...). It's that we literally did nothing. Our presence in that scene was about as relevant as the cup that the Sultana drank out of, and it makes the WoL seem much more like plot device than a character. They made up for it, a little, with the sacrifice of all the Scions, but, again, it hardly made us seem like a person so much as a treasured item that they couldn't bare to see taken away from them. -
10-08-2015, 04:31 PMFebrusOh, trust me. I don't hold my breath over this particular area of the story of this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
The lore is fascinating, and the plot events (as well as the voice acting/delivery) of the expansion were greatly improved over the 2.0 content, in my opinion, but when it comes to our character, I have no faith in SE's ability to make anything compelling. It's partly because of the nature of MMO's. The fact that we customize (and re-customize) our own characters makes it pretty difficult to write anything compelling about them. By default, SE would be cut out of certain details that they would normally use as plot points (Ie: Our species and genders are widely different, so they could not fall back on any specific character foils that would be tied to either. Or, for example, they cannot possibly know each of our own individual sexual or romantic persuasions, so writing in a romantic interest for the WoL would be impossible... etc.)
It would be nice to see them write scenes involving the WoL that make him seem like more of a character rather than simply our window into the world of FFXIV, and there were a few occasions in the expansion which actually made efforts to "include" us in the plot a little more (I seem to recall a couple parts where we were asked to make a choice or express our opinion. It changed nothing, but it was a nice touch). However, I don't expect them to be able to write anything truly compelling that would make it seem like the story is "our" story. It's not, really. We're just a part of it. Seeing as how the WoD is our opposite, I imagine it will be largely the same thing. It would be nice for him to be a rival, or have ideas and an agenda of his own, but I find it unlikely that he'll be any different than our reflection in a mirror. -
10-08-2015, 11:23 PMBelhiIn this situation the WoL was totally cornered. There was little he or she could do. Teleji had cornered them in such a fashion that anything they did would only make them look even more like the bad guy. As for the sacrifice, its because the WoL is unique. Not only because of his/her abilities to influence and make changes and inspire people, but because they could do things that no one, even the other scions could do. Like fight Primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Im not sure. I don't think he will simply be a villain. One thing that comes up quite a bit in several of the Job questlines is the balance between light and shadow. I think we will have clashes with him and he probably wont simply be on our team but I think he won't outright be our enemy and quite possibly will fight along side us occasionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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10-09-2015, 12:08 AMFenralI'm... not? At least, not anymore, but only because there are so many better, more focused works out there for that, and lately it's felt like the storytelling is actually chafing against the restrictions imposed by the format. That's not a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayve
Besides, we already have Eldibus scrambling around trying to do damage control, and I'd really like him to be right about something. The possible alternatives are... unfortunate. -
10-09-2015, 04:00 AMAyuhraTo be fair in clients other than English (German especially) Lord Haurchefant is a romantic interest. I wish they had kept that in English because it IS a detail that makes the WoL feel more anchored in the world. The way he was written in German and the way NPCs refer to him makes it possible for the player to decide whether it was unrequited love or not. Meaning he loves the WoL but the WoL could be oblivious if that's how the player chooses to read it. More interactions like that would be welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I am noticing in Heavensward that the WoL seems to be becoming more of a character in very subtle ways. I noticed more emoting in cutscenes this time around and you have actual traveling companions in Ysayle and Estinien who interact with you. The WoL feels slightly less like a weapon the Scions are pointing at people and more like a person caught up in a ridiculous war. I'm not saying the WoL is a WELL ROUNDED character but steps are being made.
What I'd love to see, but I know I wont, is the quests playing out differently and the world responding differently depending on player choice. Elder Scrolls Online does this which is why it has my favorite quest system of any MMO (oh it is a flawed game but it has its shining moments). The story and world of FFXIV is deep enough that a branching system like that would add a lovely touch even if it only caused small details to vary per person. -
10-09-2015, 06:13 AMFebrusGood catch. It's the same in the English version. The dialogue and some of the more lingering glances heavily imply that Haurchefant is in love (at least to some degree) with the WoL. They played it really subtle and left it open to interpretation. In some cases, it only seemed like he was purely awestruck and deeply caring (similar to the way one might have a friend they care so much about that they are treated like treasured family), but in others it seemed clear that he was blatantly smitten with us (which in my case, implied that Haurchefant was homosexual). However the WoL seems to take no notice, regardless of the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
They did the same thing before 3.0 with Tataru. During her brief side quests where she is trying to "find herself" and become even remotely useful to the group, there are a couple instances where she confides in the WoL and, after we leave, looks after us longingly. Again, it's very subtle (as it kind of has to be) and is open to interpretation, but it's there.
It's scenes like these, as well as the ones in HW that you pointed out between Ysayle, Estinien, and Alphinaud, that actually make us feel like a character, and I wish there were more instances of them. I also wish that they were presented in a stronger fashion. Having us interact with the characters more, offer our opinions, be involved in dialogue instead of just silently standing off to the side, have some degree of choices (even if they are a facade and don't impact the plot at all) would do wonders for making us feel like we're actually involved with what's going on instead of simply playing the witness. The only characters that seem to consistently treat us as "people" are the job quest related ones... and, I'm not gonna lie, sometimes I go back to chat with them just to be reminded that my character is a person in the world and not just some phantom. -
10-09-2015, 06:22 AMFebrusThe WoD's role is something I'm the most interested in for future content.The fact that he's standing with an Ascian kind of implies he's just going to be a gun they can point our way when they need to "balance" things out, and the lore seems to indicate that he'll be similar to us in every way except that he's our opposite. The contrast between light and shadow, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, implies that he'll be us, basically, just our mirror reflection, but I wonder how he'll be implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
I also can't help but wonder if the implementation of the WoD wasn't in some way influenced by us, the players. I recall a Fan convention... or something, back when they first were introducing HW, and they were talking about how the Dark Knight job does not mean that the Dark Knights were evil, so we didn't have to worry. The audience was disappointed though, and all went "Aww...." Then the administrators were shocked and asked the crowd if we wanted to play as the "bad guy." Most of the crowd said yes, and Yoshi P said: "... we'll think about it."
I highly doubt that the WoD's creation was influenced by the event, since HW was already nearing completion at the time, but it does make me wonder if they take these sort of things into account as they move forward. -
10-09-2015, 07:09 AMAyuhra
Haurchefant's fondness for the WoL does come across as deep friendship or subtle love in English but it is far from subtle in other languages. In Japanese he has lines like "Oh, I was waiting for you, [NAME]! I had heard you would be attending this meeting, so I impatiently waited for your arrival! Your body is beautiful as always… splendid! It has been a long time since you last visited Coerthas — do you find it cold? It is warmer in my private chambers, so if you’d like…" He flat out propositions you like this. More than once. In German his attraction is portrayed as tragic unrequited (or at least unconsummated) love.
In German, he dies in your arms lamenting that you are finally touching him but he can't feel you. His last words are him calling you his hero.
I actually wish they had kept the romantic tones in English. I feel like we missed out on part of Haurchefant's character and some of our own WoL's as well. Knowing they lost someone who might have been a lover characterizes them a bit further when they are later seen accepting the shield, visiting the monument and crying bloody vengeance ("Life for Death! I will have Ser Zephirin's heart for what he did to Haurchefant!")
Hopefully in the future they will be less shy in the English client about having characters see the WoL as...well...a person. -
10-09-2015, 07:42 AMFenral
A certain character in the Japanese version was framed as being your perky, overeager-but-underconfident younger-brother-type character, and that, combined with the number of direct interactions (and background banter) he had with the WoL, resulted in him being fairly well-received by Japanese players. Naturally, he was changed in the English to being enigmatic, with largely inscrutable motivations, and, in that last scene, became kind of an arrogant jerk for reasons that were largely removed from his English-language characterization, leading to a not insignificant amount of hate that is pretty specific to the English-language playerbase. (The Japanese version is closer to "Yeah! I can do this thing! It'll be so cool!" with the response coming across as "Yeah, but so can we! See you again soon!")
I think it boils down to what the Localization leads for each language think works best for their understanding of the target audience. The problem with having the game client in multiple languages, though, is that there ends up being a lot more transparency than there was in, say, Final Fantasy XII, when Alexander O. Smith rewrote Balthier's character pretty much from scratch, turning him from a hothead punk into the "leading man" we all know and love. -
10-09-2015, 11:26 AMCyrilLucifer
I always felt like some of the heroines in XI had some pretty blatant romantic undertones with your character as well. When you start getting into "you've influenced my life and been there for me whenever I'm in need...I'm not sure what I'm going to do without you" type statements in every other cutscene it's hard to interpret it as anything but interest. One of them even blatantly says "As soon as I saw you, I knew I had to have you" in Wings of the Goddess, regarding, well, certain spoilery things that I think Februs would enjoy.
I think it being a MMO and the WoL being a non-character aren't really excuses to not have deep, possibly intimate relationships with NPCs. As mentioned above, HW does seem to have done a bit better job with it.
That being said...
I'll take Elidibus. -
10-09-2015, 01:27 PM_Pigzig
I think it's an excuse for why our character is so talented. It's actually an explanation to avoid him/her feeling like a sue.
He's not some random prodify, he's somehow been gifted, that's why he's good.
Rather than just being really really strong and better than everyone for no reason. -
10-09-2015, 02:43 PMCyrilLucifer
That was why Midgardsormr tests you, though, and removes the Blessing. You do almost everything in Heavensward on your character's strength alone, rather than by any gift from Hydaelyn. Hence why you're absolutely dominating once you do regain it.
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10-09-2015, 03:26 PMMorningstar1337So basically it's like some glorified weighed training then?Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
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10-09-2015, 04:08 PMCyrilLuciferThat's how I interpreted it, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
I suppose, in a way Midgardsormr was inadvertently helping us while also testing us. Kind of like how you end up leveling up in FFI while getting the Rat Tail for Bahamut. It's not the direct intention to make you stronger, you just become stronger on your own while being tested. -
10-10-2015, 01:05 AMFenral
But you could also interpret that to mean that there isn't a lore-based reason for the WoL's strengh, ergo... actually super strong for no reason beyond, because they are who they are? Isn't that almost like...
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10-10-2015, 01:58 AMDPZ2
The Warrior of Light is not a title I assumed by choice. It is a vision granted by something bigger than all of those who seek my assistance, or my downfall.
With all that, I still have doubts. Do I really know "who I am"?
I've taken the words spoken by a recently defeated foe to heart:
"Who -- what are you?"
A Mary Sue has no doubts.
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10-10-2015, 02:09 AMCyrilLuciferOh, I wasn't arguing it one way or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
I personally don't think the WoL is a Mary Sue, but I can understand why people would think so. If anything, depending on how the story goes, I think Minfilia is definitely in danger of falling under the trope in the future (if Elidibus starts showing interest in her instead of us, that's going to be a big, big warning sign). -
10-10-2015, 02:32 AMFenralNeither am I, just pointing out what is currently in play. I really wish I had more confidence that it will end up handled skillfully down the line, but... eh, I've been let down on too many trust falls to keep my hopes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
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10-18-2015, 03:00 AMTenkuuExcept that these characters have had lives and been doing their work, in the case of the Scions, long before you ever came around. We know the Scions have been in Eorzea, as the Circle of Knowing, for the past 10 years, but then there's the prior years that they spent becoming the experts in their respective fields that they are. Also, I'd like to mention that this is skillfully averted with Thancred: while on the exterior he appears confident, he's been feeling inadequate in his role in the group, not to mention the fact that he specifically feels like he has failed the Warrior of Light during their formative days in the group. This need to prove himself comes up again and again, and even Minfilia clearly feels the same need when she accompanies us to Leviathan. These are very rounded characters imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
If we take the example of Thancred again, he seems to be considered the strongest of the Scions, and proves his combat skills on at least two occasions, to say nothing of his cunning wit. He is a very multi-faceted character with more to him than meets the eye. So far, of the Scions, he is the most personable, the one we'll most easily have a casual chat with between quests in Waking Sands/Rising Stones.Quote:
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the characters we meet end up losing out on the depth they could have had in a proper stand-alone work because the MMO story needs to make our presence work and continue appealing to players as the power fantasy that, for all its recent pretensions, it still very much is.
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10-18-2015, 03:03 AMTenkuuKeep in mind that however much the Scions like you as a person, you still signed a contract with them, and this is literally your job. You agreed to join their organization and take on assignments in exchange for some benefits, and it was always obvious that you'd have responsibilities. You even get paid for this job in the form of gil, materia, equipment, etc. Some days, the job may be tough and you may be asked to do more egregious tasks, and other days the other Scions and their allies will celebrate your victories, just like being at an office party thrown for your having done a particularly good job at work. Some of your co-workers you will love, some you'll be indifferent to, and some you might not be able to stand, and your boss could fall under either of those categories. Of course, the setup in this game is that you not only work with the Scions, but grow fond of them as people the more you get to know them. They also come to view you as such an integral part of the group that they ask you for personal favors (Yda and Minfilia notably) or confide in you (Minfilia). Even Thancred, after you've reported your victory over Ifrit to Minfilia, feels that it's necessary for you to know an ugly truth: that the tempered survivors had to be killed. In short, this is a nice reflection of your real life: you have to take the good with the bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
There was frankly nothing you could have said that wouldn't have been called an excuse or lie by Teledji, as evidenced by his treatment of the people who did speak up on your behalf. Also, fighting back, as previously pointed out by many, might have been viscerally satisfying, but would otherwise have accomplished nothing other than reinforcing the image Teledji was trying to paint of the Scions as inhuman monsters who view themselves above the law. This isn't even a new image, since in 1.0, Echo users were feared and one young girl was even tossed out of her home by her parents when she revealed having visions. People will be quick to fear what they don't understand, and what Teledji said during that banquet served to feed those fears and doubts. It's really only the fact that the Warrior of Light is not just known as a big hero but also as a helper of the little people, that made it so that the general populace is disinclined to believe that you would do something as horrible as commit murder. The other NPCs during that banquet are more to blame, as the leaders of the GCs could have granted you an at least temporary protection, but even they reacted in a mostly panicked manner and probably were not thinking straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
What's compelling to one may be considered boring or unoriginal by another. For me, for instance, the story is nothing at all without the other Scions. I liked 3.0 a good deal less than most people as a result. All that we accomplished in 3.0 felt like a pale shadow of what we could have accomplished with our full group, and the feeling of stumbling around aimlessly was never more intense for me than in 3.0. We are literally jumping from one plot point to another without any semblance of any reason for doing so other than: Scions handle everyone's problems for them. Technically speaking, we're even the reason for Thordan and the Ascians to create so much trouble in Ishgard. Not to mention that Nanamo, once she revives, does not even pretend to make any effort to look for the Scions who were wrongly persecuted on her behalf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I don't think you're talking about Alphinaud, and the only other somewhat perky character I can think of, as of 3.0, is Honoroit, the kid who's always with Emmanellain, but the latter part of your paragraph doesn't sound relevant to him so I'm curious: which character are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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10-18-2015, 03:17 AMTenkuuMinfilia: She's insecure, doubts her decisions and worries a lot over everything, not to mention is literally in charge of everything, including the more bureaucratic aspects of the Scions that I'm sure no one else would rather be doing in her place. The reason she sacrifices herself is pretty obvious: at first, to protect the important relic and cherished memory of Louisoix (in his staff), and then, because she considers you alone to be so important that even on your own, you would do the Scions proud and protect the realm, even calling you their beacon of hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Moenbryda: She was alluded to long before she arrived as the Sharlayan specialist that Minfilia was going to bring in to help them with their aetheryte problems. She's loved by everyone because she's charismatic and her interactions with Urianger clearly fascinate/amuse/shock them. In spite of her strong and positive attitude, she harbored insecurities with regards to Louisoix, and sacrificed herself when she understood and mirrored his dedication to his beliefs.
G'raha: Interesting character who was full of insecurities from the beginning but sought both answers and to better himself. Far from a perfect character.
Ysayle: Inadvertently caused the deaths of innocents, has deep regrets about her actions and sought to make amends. Considered herself foolish and felt that the only meaningful contribution she could make to the Scions' cause was to stop the Garleans through her own sacrifice.
Warrior of Light: I consider the Warrior of Light from my own perspective, which is to say a highly fallible character who may have to try more than once to get things right, but I know this doesn't necessarily jive lore-wise. Other than that though, obviously their origin is your own personal choice. The superpowers are not ones unique to them: the Path of the Twelve (and now the Scions) was full of people who had the Echo, if several variants of it, and you are shown quite early on to clearly not be the only warrior chosen by Hydaelyn. Heck, you're not even the only gifted adventurer who fought at Carteneau. You're simply the one warrior to have both the Blessing of Light and the Echo to be an implicit part of the Scions' organization and whom they have relied on the most because of the specific set of circumstances that led to them noticing you more than others. Not all those other Echo users will have fought an Ascian and/or Voidsent, for instance, and not all of the other Chosen of Hydaelyn will be fighting on the Scions' side either. This game is not black and white, it's full of shades of grey, and while we may not agree with the Scions' every involvement, we picked their side and are employed by them.
Minfilia: Her decisions are questioned by Alphinaud who, while admittedly is not a shining example of great decision making, makes it clear that he considers her to be fallible in spite of the fact that he does admire and respect her. There's also no such thing as "just a manager", since the manager is the one who literally oversees everything, even the little things no one else wants to deal with. Her organization is benevolent, but has also dipped its hand in every bowl, the Circle of Knowing even being responsible for the reinstatement of the GCs, not to mention that their benevolence protects not specific groups or individuals but the planet itself. She's also not a fighter, so no one expects her to suddenly develop combat abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Moenbryda: Somewhat insecure but highly charismatic person who pretty much just wanted to help an old friend and doesn't care too much how the other Scions view her. Not exactly that familiar to the other Scions as they're clearly surprised by her interactions with Urianger. Her death still remains a sacrifice, as she may have been wounded by Nabriales but there was no indication of it being fatal (Minfilia suffered the same type of wound from Elidibus).
G'raha: Flawed and insecure character who was introduced as such, and was still working out his issues when he left us for good.
Ysayle: She isn't trusted fully by us in the beginning, as is normal for someone who you've grudginly sought out to help you resolve a single problem. Made mistakes and regrets them, tried to atone with the only power she had: using the Primal Shiva, even knowing that it was her own foolish creation.
Warrior of Light: Has overall pretty normal reactions, even getting annoyed during that one set of quests where you're sent to look for a specific corrupted crystal to be able to fight Garuda and keep being mislead because of miscommunication. The combat style argument I don't think is necessarily true. After all, you technically get breaks between missions from the Scions, and those could be as long as a few days or weeks in lore, meaning you could be doing your job training during that time. You can, however, argue that the Warrior of Light has perhaps a stronger aptitude for learning new combat styles, and because of that learns faster. Thancred even comments that he feels the need to hone his skills to be able to match yours, and Minfilia already refers to him as the strongest of the Scions. How others feel about you comes back to shades of grey: not everyone who dislikes you is evil, but they do have different motivations and ways of doing things than you do, leading both you and others who ask for your help to consider them as either evil or misguided. -
10-18-2015, 03:40 AMTenkuuI'm not sure, but from what I understood of the japanese audio, Ysayle calling you a fool is not present in the japanese version. She seems to merely be trying to reason with you in that version.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
Exactly, it's all about shades of grey. These characters may not like your way of doing things and might prefer a more aggressive approach.Quote:
You can have characters oppose the WOL without resorting to hating them.
I think I recall reading somewhere that the Warrior of Darkness was going to be a character with his own history who simply has different motivations from yours. There's no doubt that he will be used by the Ascians as a counterpart to the Warrior of Light, but he'll likely have his own reasons for siding with them over Hydaelyn. It's even possible he will be more informed than you and that this will end up revealing more about the Ascians. To be honest, I expect him to be a character as well fleshed out as Ysayle, probably even better, because otherwise why bother to make such a big deal about him by dropping such a huge cliffhanger at the end of 3.0.Quote:
In most JRPGs, the protagonists are always ones who do the right thing, even if it makes them look stupid, so I would not expect the scene at the banquet to be any different. I also would not get your hopes up about the Warrior of Darkness being different because I have a gut feeling that he will just be the attack dog for the Ascians instead of having his own will. He seems to be nothing more than a counterpart to the Warrior of Light simply to stop them.
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10-18-2015, 03:52 AMFenralSame person I always bring up as an example: G'raha Tia. Yeah, he was that different in Japanese, almost a beta test for Heavensward's take on Alphinaud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenkuu
Unfortunately, I disagree with your notion that giving himself over entirely to the dead Allagans in his head is a way of bettering himself, as the act is more in line with killing himself, at least metaphorically. In a lot of ways it's closer to Thancred giving himself over to Lahabrea, though it's not portrayed as such because suddenly nobody was up for questioning the "greater good." He's not becoming a better person, he's giving up entirely on who he was and becoming a glorified slave to a purpose that cares not a single iota about the person fulfilling it, and that's not something that should ever be portrayed as a positive.
Don't get me wrong, I liked the guy, and spent the better part of the 13 months between Labyrinth of the Ancients and the World of Darkness hanging out with him between guildleve hand-ins in Mor Dhona, but I think what happened with him, and what they were trying to say with what happened to him, is an inexcusable low for a game that calls itself Final Fantasy. -
10-18-2015, 05:47 AMTenkuuHaven't been on the forums long enough to notice, and I think I only saw one other post where you mentioned him. I don't know, I never thought of G'raha as perky. Either way, I did play with japanese audio, but english subtitles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
You misunderstand. I didn't say that the notion *was* him bettering himself, I said it was his idea of doing so. As far as Thancred goes, it seems unclear to me exactly how he came in possession of a crystal of darkness. Given what he says to you afterwards (and I'm going by a combination of the english and french versions on this), it's likely he was overconfident that he could handle it and took on more than he actually could, especially since by all accounts (of the other Scions), that has been his tendency so far. I personally wish they'd clarify that because it seems very ambiguous. But to get back to G'raha, I actually agree with you completely that it was a dumbass move on his part.Quote:
Unfortunately, I disagree with your notion that giving himself over entirely to the dead Allagans in his head is a way of bettering himself, as the act is more in line with killing himself, at least metaphorically. In a lot of ways it's closer to Thancred giving himself over to Lahabrea, though it's not portrayed as such because suddenly nobody was up for questioning the "greater good." He's not becoming a better person, he's giving up entirely on who he was and becoming a glorified slave to a purpose that cares not a single iota about the person fulfilling it, and that's not something that should ever be portrayed as a positive.
I like him too, and I get the feeling that with future expansions, he may well be making a comeback.Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I liked the guy, and spent the better part of the 13 months between Labyrinth of the Ancients and the World of Darkness hanging out with him between guildleve hand-ins in Mor Dhona, but I think what happened with him, and what they were trying to say with what happened to him, is an inexcusable low for a game that calls itself Final Fantasy.