DEV REQUEST: Remove cast bars to MCH & BRD

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

While I'm in the camp which absolutely hates Wanderer's Minuet, I don't see it changing any time soon.

At first I assumed they had added WM in order to make us equal to other DPS jobs in terms of raw damage. Then I actually did some testing and found it came up horribly short. The main reason was that the small damage bonus didn't make up for the loss of auto attacks. They later gave it an extra 10% damage bonus and then it just slightly pipped ahead of the auto-attack damage.

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They're very afraid of utility jobs making pures obsolete, which is in part why AST was so awful until recently. Unless their mindset changes, I don't see bard/machinist matching the casters, never mind the melee, at any point.

I did't play MCH yet but BRD with casting bars is annoying and boring. It feels way slower now. It still confuses me sometimes.

WM probably isnt going anywhere at all at this point so i gave up on hoping for that, i still feel that WM was just GB tacked onto bard because SE couldnt think of anything actually creative to do with bard, so of course it all just feels clunky as hell, thats what i want Sqaure to fix, adjust abilities or i dont even know, just fix all the clunkyness bard has now, its so damn obviously bards toolkit was not designed for this at all

and please get rid of wardens paeon already, it is like 99% useless

BRD feels a lot more rooted to the ground especially with Empyreal arrow being an oGCD attack but still having a cast time, so it will clip into your GCD almost all the time. I leveled my MCH before I maxed my BRD and I can say that they definitely built MCH from the ground up with gauss barrel in mind.

If you shoot a split shot at a target with gauss barrel on, you will be able to tell whether you got a procc or not before your GCD resets. This is not true for BRD's heavy shot though. The actual attack lands way too late and you won't be able to tell you have a straight shot procc until after your GCD resets. Just little things like that make me prefer MCH.

My answer about this "request"

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http://puu.sh/knc4h/895704929c.png

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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And to add onto this, BLM's counterpart to this is firestarter, which makes their fire III instant cast with no mp cost. Compared to straight shot, no BLM would ever hardcast fire III unless it's switching from umbral to astral (in which case, you have more than enough time to use up that firestarter). They also had another issue where thudercloud was worth less than the potency of fire IV on top of the risk of dropping enochian, they had to buff the former. That's an example of 3.0 skills not working well with 2.0's design and they managed to correct even that.

With straight shot, I have to keep the buff refreshed regularly which means casting SS when it falls off.

If I'm doing it right after heavy shot (and heavy shot lands the proc), I get the buff, but does not get used up and I do not get the 100% crit. I can't even buffer the time by using an oGCD right after heavy shot, it just doesn't work. It's all the more frustrating since SS uses more tp for lower potency.

And compared to MCH, split shot doesn't suffer this problem between the comparatively shorter animation and the other designs behind it. Heck, slug shot and clean shot doesn't have this problem considering I can hit one after another during rapid fire (instant cast with a 1 sec GCD) and still use up the procs that pop from the previous skill without having to wait for it.

It should be very simple for the devs to rename the Cast Bar of BRD and MCH into Charge Bar.
There are already different bars in the game (a wait bar, a watch bar, an examine bar, etc.), one more shouldn't be a problem

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Originally Posted by Felis

It should be very simple for the devs to rename the Cast Bar of BRD and MCH into Charge Bar

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If it functioned differently like the charge could be done while moving or allowed oGCDs to be used inbetween, then sure. Though there still needs to be tweaks to make BRD function better with cast/charge times in regards to procs, and to differentiate the gameplay of BRD and MCH.

Having a cast bar brings all the restriction (that is, the amount of oGCDs you can use and the absolute freedom of movement, although this is more of a pvp concern) of having a cast bar, but in BRD's case (and MCH in PvP) without the payoff of a cast bar (which is usually higher damage output)

Why there are so many different topics about bards current state? Because every single thread gets flooded by anti bards and black mages.

If square is gonna give back brds mobility and take away WM, they will also have to nerf every fight and every class to accommodate the dps checks and to keep the dps ratio between brd and others classes the same. As people have stated before, with WM brds are still behind dps by like 200. But wait, if thats with WM, than wouldnt that mean the gap would be even bigger with out it?? I don't think a potency buff to every of brds skill will fix the gap. If that is the case here, than your lookin at

Mobility + 190 potency Heavy Shot/Bloodletter. 130 potency on venomous bite with a dot potency of 40 potency, 80 potency of windbite with a dot potency of 60 and so on so forth. It all sounds reasonable yea? Cause you need potency around these for brd to do the same dmg as they do now. But the mobility and the idea of ignoring AoEs and still have 100% dps and uptime is the winner here and deal breaker.

I happen to like Minuet. The pace of actions is like a lazy enmity control, don't have to hold back anywhere near as much when I start plunking buffs. That said, Minuet wasn't something Square gave Bard just because. Bard is every bit as viable without as they are with. Minuet is their answer to players requests for more damage, and more damage it is. But seems Square wasn't exactly anticipating people ONLY wanting more damage, they didn't want it balanced against the other Jobs. "But it's not balanced!" Oh, but it is. Other Jobs may have gotten as many buffs in Heavensward but they arealmost all limited in use and duration... save Minuet. I'm not counting the Extra Jobs cause their thing is being new with Heavensward. But. again, Bard is every bit as viable without Minuet as they are with so if you don't like having to stand still and cast like a Black Mage, then don't use it. Quit talking for others when clearly you don't.

I've gotten used to using WM now on my bard character, though I can't entirely say whether I actually enjoy it now or not. I realize the usefulness of it as far as boosting my own damage goes, especially for making up as a baseline for the damage loss I take by using Mage's Ballad or etc. And Empyreal Arrow is fun to use in itself, since it feels like one of the better damage skills now especially paired with how Barrage works (plus the animation is just cool).

Just personally, the initial reason I went to Bard was the mobility of it. I knew when I started it that the class wouldn't ever reach the heights of damage that a Black Mage or Dragoon could dish out, but I hated (at the time) magic classes and already had plenty of melee classes, so when I decided to pick up a new dps class after I leveled my tank to 50, Bard was my first choice. And it's felt like part of Bard's appeal was taken away with the addition of WM. Yes, I realize I could just not use it - and for a while I refused to, thinking the loss of my auto-attack and ability to move freely while attacking was more valuable in the long run. And I can't say I've entirely lost that mindset, just now I also realize WM does boost my class by a lot - enough to make due with the cast bars, which are admittedly far shorter than a healer's or any magic user's are.

Of course, at this point I'm changing my Bard character to Summoner for various reasons (one of which being what I mentioned about feeling as if Bard's initial draw is gone now, though that's honestly the least of my reasons). But I do still enjoy the class (WM and all) enough to roll a second Bard to make up for the upcoming change to my current one's class.

I do feel like WM should have been added far before level 50, or at least our skills should have been more tailored to it from the get-go, as now when you hit 50 and move on to gain WM, it's a very drastic change in playstyle compared to 1-50's experience, which can very well turn people off from the class entirely if they weren't aware of WM's existence beforehand. As someone mentioned a while back, Machinist feels like it was built from the ground up with Gauss Barrel in mind, so the shift to it doesn't feel as drastic (and honestly, I feel like before Gauss Barrel, Machinist feels mega slow for both auto attacks as well as actual skills - but that could just be my perception based on the skill animations).

I hope a middle ground can be found for Bard primarily, but Machinist as well if necessary - I do see the benefits of WM, but I also feel like the change to the class was rather drastic given how long we went without it.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I happen to like Minuet. The pace of actions is like a lazy enmity control, don't have to hold back anywhere near as much when I start plunking buffs. That said, Minuet wasn't something Square gave Bard just because. Bard is every bit as viable without as they are with. Minuet is their answer to players requests for more damage, and more damage it is. But seems Square wasn't exactly anticipating people ONLY wanting more damage, they didn't want it balanced against the other Jobs. "But it's not balanced!" Oh, but it is. Other Jobs may have gotten as many buffs in Heavensward but they arealmost all limited in use and duration... save Minuet. I'm not counting the Extra Jobs cause their thing is being new with Heavensward. But. again, Bard is every bit as viable without Minuet as they are with so if you don't like having to stand still and cast like a Black Mage, then don't use it. Quit talking for others when clearly you don't.

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Wat. DPs for all the jobs is balanced around using 3.0 skills to keep the dps discrepancy the same. Bards using WM isnt doing any more damage in 3.0 compared to other classes that are using their 3.0 skills as it was in 2.0. If you were to take off WM, the damage discrepancy would widen and you'd be doing less damage comparatively than it was in 2.0.

It also doesn't control enmity because it doesn't slow down the rate of skills you use. You're still using one skill every 2.5~ seconds due to the GCD.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You're still using one skill every 2.5~ seconds due to the GCD.

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I don't know, I've found during the last boss of Vault I can kill the orbs faster without Minuet than I can with. As for GCD, yes, it is still 2.5 seconds but with Minuet up there's a 3.5-ish cast time for most actions so GCD is moot at that point. At least, that's what I've noticed, I don't really give it the third-degree so I can't say with utter confidence. Either way, I'm not generating as much enmity with Minuet as I do without because of the extra time between actions. This is one of the trade-offs for doing 30% more damage, a casting time and reduced mobility. This is also the thing alot of the 'everyone' spokespeople seem to hate. Again, there had to be a trade-off in order for it to be balanced.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I don't know, I've found during the last boss of Vault I can kill the orbs faster without Minuet than I can with. As for GCD, yes, it is still 2.5 seconds but with Minuet up there's a 3.5-ish cast time for most actions so GCD is moot at that point. At least, that's what I've noticed, I don't really give it the third-degree so I can't say with utter confidence. Either way, I'm not generating as much enmity with Minuet as I do without because of the extra time between actions. This is one of the trade-offs for doing 30% more damage, a casting time and reduced mobility. This is also the thing alot of the 'everyone' spokespeople seem to hate. Again, there had to be a trade-off in order for it to be balanced.

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3.5? what kind of connection have you got?

My cast bars with 528 skill speed are 1'46
With 707 are 1.42

Please don't blame castsbars when the problem is your connection or ISP.

It seems to be more about complain of how delayed the bard damage is, yes cast finishes within 1.5 seconds, but the hit lands when you are already halfway the next cast. cast time+ animation makes damage really delayed compared to some other jobs

It's same as black mages.
You started to cast fire I and you would see fire III proc from the last fire I. (You used surecast - lethargy - virus or another ability to force server update and check the proc before fire I hits. Was useful during 2.4 and beyond before start casting blizzard III to enter umbral ice).

bards are the same, you use bloodletter, blunt arrow, empyreal arrow, sidewinder and all kind of buffs to force server update and check Straigther Shot proc. Sometimes you get the proc when you are casting, it's a crap and would be fixed. The potency lost is 10 against use heavy shot cast vs straight shot cast. You cast SS and you have the proc, no problem. Let ss be casted, use another oGCD, and use against SS proc.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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Your cast time is 1.5 seconds in a 2.5 GCD. There's no possible way for you to generate "less" enmnity compared to now, unless you always opened with an auto attack rather than a weapon skill.

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Originally Posted by rappa

It's same as black mages.
You started to cast fire I and you would see fire III proc from the last fire I. (You used surecast - lethargy - virus or another ability to force server update and check the proc before fire I hits. Was useful during 2.4 and beyond before start casting blizzard III to enter umbral ice).

bards are the same, you use bloodletter, blunt arrow, empyreal arrow, sidewinder and all kind of buffs to force server update and check Straigther Shot proc. Sometimes you get the proc when you are casting, it's a crap and would be fixed. The potency lost is 10 against use heavy shot cast vs straight shot cast. You cast SS and you have the proc, no problem. Let ss be casted, use another oGCD, and use against SS proc.

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You can't use a oGCd skill to force a server check for SS procs. I mentioned this in a previous post and it doesn't work like that for BRD for god knows why because you can do this just fine for BLM

You mentioned heavy shot cast followed by straight shot cast, then you notice you got ss proc. I said that would be fixed but will be hard like server connection and your game work.

As i said. Cast heavy shot - bloodletter(ss proc appears) - straight shot instant.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Cast heavy shot - bloodletter(ss proc appears) - straight shot instant.

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To some degree, something like this; but it's not very reliable due to the chance-based proc.

In actuality, if they wanted to, they can actually decrease the animation delay just a smidgen so that it behaves similar to MCH's procs. If you haven't played MCH, basically, the procs are almost near-instant after the animation ends. I guess part of the problem is that SS procs are synced to the 2.X instants, and not with 3.X casts.

Personally, I really like how bard is now. Just tweak the animation delay on SS procs, and make Warden's Paean a lot more useful (even giving it an instant cast with a 15 second recast, or a 1 second cast time just like Swiftsong would be fine!), and I'll be happy.

I liked machinist until I got gauss barrel. Now I hate it.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I still wonder what content there is where you have to be constantly on the move. I gotten MCH to 60 and I spend the majority of my fights just standing and shooting.

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There is a bunch of movement dodging AoE on bosses, not so much on trash or outside dungeons. Isn't black mage the no mobility bastard step child of SE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2f80ZMNexo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmK-ge3UTc

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Originally Posted by rappa

As i said. Cast heavy shot - bloodletter(ss proc appears) - straight shot instant.

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And as I said, it won't give you the proc in time for your next GCD even if you did use a oGCD like bloodletter. It won't give you it's benefit, period.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Please don't blame castsbars when the problem is your connection or ISP.

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What?! I'm... I'm confused. When did I 'blame' anything on anything? I'm reading my posts and I don't see anything saying anything to that effect. I don't really understand where your negativity is stemming from. Anyway, I do notice that the GCD resolves before I'm finished with my action under Minuet whereas without I'm waiting on the GCD in order to use another action. This difference gives a noticeable reduction in enmity build-up, at least I've noticed something to that effect. It's harder for me to pull hate under Minuet than without. But this is all personal experience, everyone has their own.

The funny thing is, everyone has the timings WAAAY off on Minuet. The actual cast time is based on your skill speed, and 1.5 is the maximum. In actuality, your cast and recasts are going to be a lot less than that and worse, that actually CAUSES more problems than it solves.

Look at it this way, to use a skill like Barrage or Hawk Eye without Minuet is as simple as weaving it between one skill and the next. 2.33 seconds is a very generous amount of time. Weaving it in when you have 0.76 seconds after the weaponskill is quite simply impossible to do without it eating into your GCD. People love to assume that abilities are these instant-cast miracles, but they really aren't. The animation is a cast time all of its own, and it prevents you performing new actions until it's finished.

So, it doesn't really matter how you look at it, Minuet is still a very clunky mechanic at the best of times. As for the DPS increase, it's not as amazing as the arguments might suggest. People have greatly underestimated how much damage they used to gain through auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

There is a bunch of movement dodging AoE on bosses, not so much on trash or outside dungeons. Isn't black mage the no mobility bastard step child of SE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2f80ZMNexo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmK-ge3UTc

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The first link gave me a 404 error and the second one is gw2...

If they ever removed the casting times from BRD and MCH, they'd also remove the extra damage they get with those abilities.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

The first link gave me a 404 error and the second one is gw2...

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I see that. Was just 2 videos showing movement playing mage jobs in endgame.

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Originally Posted by kalasnikov

Why there are so many different topics about bards current state? Because every single thread gets flooded by anti bards and black mages.

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Nothing worse than opposing viewpoints, right?

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

What?! I'm... I'm confused. When did I 'blame' anything on anything? I'm reading my posts and I don't see anything saying anything to that effect. I don't really understand where your negativity is stemming from. Anyway, I do notice that the GCD resolves before I'm finished with my action under Minuet whereas without I'm waiting on the GCD in order to use another action. This difference gives a noticeable reduction in enmity build-up, at least I've noticed something to that effect. It's harder for me to pull hate under Minuet than without. But this is all personal experience, everyone has their own.

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Then that's lag on your end or something. The cast times for weaponskills under WM is 1.5 seconds with a 2.5 second GCD. There's no way for your cast time to finish before the GCD is finished.

http://puu.sh/kqAsX/b360ecbdbf.png

The matter of fact is, WM should not be slowing your attack output, it's not supposed to do that. You should till be able to do one weapon skill every GCD (2.5 second) and your enmnity shouldn't be lower, bcause with or without WM, you're onyl using one weapon skill every 2.5 seconds (and the cooldown begins at the start of the cast time, not the end)

And just to add onto my previous post

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Originally Posted by rappa

You mentioned heavy shot cast followed by straight shot cast, then you notice you got ss proc. I said that would be fixed but will be hard like server connection and your game work.

As i said. Cast heavy shot - bloodletter(ss proc appears) - straight shot instant.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebqb...ature=youtu.be

yes please! -.-
Its totally stupid!
I DONT even use it.
I dont play a bard to play as a black mage all of sudden!

Why cant we have an atk switch like Dark Knight has too?!

15% Atk boost and MP Drains down while using >_> NO fu**** Casttime on skills or disable auto atk.

You know I just find it very very hilarious.

People wer asking for a magic gunner before machinist was announced.

Yet now we technically do have one.

People are complaining. Am I the only one who finds this funny?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebqb...ature=youtu.be

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It's simply, you are smashing straight shot before the proc putting the ability in queue.

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Originally Posted by rappa

It's simply, you are smashing straight shot before the proc putting the ability in queue.

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And the proc should occur before the weaponskill cooldown is finished, is what I'm getting at, on top of the fact that putting an oGCD doesn't work to force a serverside update for the proc like you suggested eariler

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

If they ever removed the casting times from BRD and MCH, they'd also remove the extra damage they get with those abilities.

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yup , but the WM dmg boost was a "lie"

let me explain

in 2.0 brd was behind melees by 20%~ (more or less, varied from encounter to encounter but just random number)

we all agree that its ok that brd did less , because it was ranged , had songs and could move and dps at the same time

at the time i advocated for a ranger or sniper or w/e stance that boosted dmg in exchange for movement or unable to sing songs (u gotta give something for more power!)

we got WM , and SE said , that we would give up movility in exchange for dmg , and yeah he didnt lie.... but what he didnt said was that he would buff the other dps way more...

and here we are... BRD is still doing 20%~ less dmg than melees , same as 2.0 and thats ok , BUT WE HAVE CASTING TIMES NOW..... is like a devil pact , we didnt read the little text....

so please TELL ME , what BRD gained in HW? it doesnt feel fair , other dps got utilty and a more fun gameplay and lots of QOL changes....

we gained casting bars.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

in 2.0 brd was behind melees by 20%~ (more or less, varied from encounter to encounter but just random number)


and here we are... BRD is still doing 20%~ less dmg than melees , same as 2.0 and thats ok , BUT WE HAVE CASTING TIMES NOW..... is like a devil pact , we didnt read the little text....

so please TELL ME , what BRD gained in HW? it doesnt feel fair , other dps got utilty and a more fun gameplay and lots of QOL changes....

we gained casting bars.

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Thats a good point. that the support range Dps did not get much support skills post 50.

/scratches head.

Ok, I get the BRD thing, but what right do you have with MCH? There was no "previous" design. If SE wanted MCH to have cast bars, then that it their choice not yours.

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Originally Posted by Magis

/scratches head.

Ok, I get the BRD thing, but what right do you have with MCH? There was no "previous" design. If SE wanted MCH to have cast bars, then that it their choice not yours.

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I personally feel there's nothing wrong with MCH, other than the fact I feel it's been incredibly over advertised, undersold as far as what they presented with ammo and "various attachments". They ended up scrapping the idea and settled with giving both BRD and MCH their own version of WM. It ends up making them play similar to each other even after they share the same party composition slot.

There's just not enough differentiation between the two jobs.

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Originally Posted by Magis

/scratches head.

Ok, I get the BRD thing, but what right do you have with MCH? There was no "previous" design. If SE wanted MCH to have cast bars, then that it their choice not yours.

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TBh its more about BARD but if MCh could get its cast bard removed great if not...thats cool
i just want the devs to know that players feel like they lost a play style that they loved

And get our old Bard style back /cheer!