Why does Ysayle want to protect Nidhogg? (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Midgardsormr was here when the Twelve were still on Hydaelyn though. Since the 12 left at the beginning of the 1st Umbra Era Allage would not exist for thousands of years. The point isn't that Dragons aren't descended from aliens (that's exactly what Middy is) but that they predate Allag by thousands upon thousands of.years.

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Again, I am aware that they predate the Allagans. I never said that they didn't. The only thing I said was that we don't know that the dragons were actually on the planet before the Allagans developed as a species. There's lots of stars up in that sky. They could have been anywhere. That being said, you indicate in your timeline that Middy arrives with the 7 eggs during the Divine Era. What's your source for this? I don't remember them saying it in the main story quest. Was it mentioned in a Lore panel that I missed or something?

Either way, The point is that Middy explicitly states in the story that when they arrived on the planet Bahamut and his mate left him to go seek out land to settle for their decedents. If Bahamut's search for new land was after the Allagans formed their civilization, than it's easy to see how they took it as a sign of aggression. If he did this before the rise of the Allagans, then it's still easy to see how they took it as a sign of aggression, since their entire species evolution would have been a competition for living space with another species of super powered dragons whom the Allagans eventually find out are not even originally from the same planet.

Honestly, it's harder for me to understand how the dragons couldn't have just avoided the whole thing. Given that they were alive long enough to see the Allagans evolve into full fledged beings and establish the Allagan empire, you'd think they would have had plenty of time to work things out with the Allagans... Chances are they were just fundamentally incompatible (Allagans: Hyper aggressive/progressive/expanding vs. Dragons: Hyper emotional/sentimental/self-righteous. = not a good mix.)

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Originally Posted by Februs

Again, I am aware that they predate the Allagans. I never said that they didn't. The only thing I said was that we don't know that the dragons were actually on the planet before the Allagans developed as a species. There's lots of stars up in that sky. They could have been anywhere. That being said, you indicate in your timeline that Middy arrives with the 7 eggs during the Divine Era. What's your source for this? I don't remember them saying it in the main story quest. Was it mentioned in a Lore panel that I missed or something?

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What do you mean as a species? They were Hyuran or Elezen. The Miqo'te would have been their subjects post Meracydian Conquest, and the Roegadyn and Au Ra would have likely had contact with them during the conquest of Othard and Aldenaurd. Allage was a world encompoasing empire not a race. By the end of the 3rd astral era it is believed they ruled the entire planet of Hydaelyn.

I'll only say it one more time, maybe it'll sink in then, The Dragons were the FIRST race to come to the planet after the twelve began to shape Eorzea on Hydaelyn's behalf. There would be no Allagan Empire for approximately ten thousand years when the first dragons were born. The Races of Man (Which we now know is no less than six) caused the 1st umbral Era with a war between themselves. But allag is no more a race than Garlen is. It was a nationality. Like how most Britannians are Caucasian but their Ethnicity is Caucasian not Britannian. British is a Britannian's nationality. Same with Allag.

As for the Divine Era, it was only ever mentioned in ONE quest in 1.0 but since Midgardsormr was mentioned as interacting with the twelve, who left the mortal world after the fall of the divine era (Why who knows), then Midgardsormr predates the 1st Umbral Era. That's a 1+1=2 kind of inference.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

What do you mean as a species?

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You're splitting hairs here. My mistake on not using a specific enough word to encompass all of the people housed in an empire. I kind of figured the word "empire" summed it up, but fine, if my choice of word or lack of a plural is such an issue, lets say as a "people." How's that? Better for you? It doesn't change the fact that the dragons were alive and kicking long before the Elezen, Hyuran, Miqo'te, or any of the others were even squirming parasites in the cosmic cesspool of the galaxy, so I'm not sure why you saw fit to be so knit picky over one word that makes absolutely no difference to the conflict in any way shape or form (none of this changes that it was Dragons versus Allagans).

Further, I asked you, quite politely, for your source of how you supposedly know that the dragons came to Hydaelyn before the respective members of the Allagan Empire developed as individual species. I did not ask if they were born first. No one has ever argued against the first dragon predating the first of any species in the Allagan Empire. We all know which species was alive first. What I wanted to know is where you're getting the information that the dragons came to Hydaelyn so far in advance of any of the other species even being alive. I'm not sure why you saw fit to go on about nationalities instead.

From your last two lines, I can see that you don't, in fact, know. You have merely inferred that the dragons arrived before the Allagan's and their respective peoples developed, based on the fact that Middy had contact with the 12. That's not a bad inference, and, considering we have nothing else to go on, I'd say its a safe bet that they did, but, that still means that we have no solid proof that is the case. The writers have left it ambiguous and open to change it however they see fit. Which brings me back to my original comment, which stated that we simply don't know all the details of how the conflict started.

Also, even if we do take this inference as fact (for now, why not? We have nothing better to go on) that still doesn't change the validity of my overall argument. If the dragons were there to witness the entire evolution of all of the species on the planet, as well as the origin of the Allagan Empire, they had more than ample time to have worked things out, but they didn't. From the Allagan perspective (keeping in mind that this is a "people" who did extensive research on dragons for the war effort) they would have likely known how old the dragons were and where they came from. From Middy's conversation, we can infer that the catalyst for the conflict was Bahamut butting heads with the Allagans over territory (who butted who first, we don't know, but that's the inference being made. Middy is pretty clear on it). Enter the conflict. On one side is the Dragons, the older species (in case anyone didn't catch that bit) from space that, by rights should have been able to put a stop to all this nonsense before it even started, and on the other side Allagan people, an empire that (in case someone is unclear on the term "empire") is made up of multiple species who evolved and developed on this planet from the start.

Now we're on the same page Februs.

As the source it's common knowledge that the only documented timeline is from the Final Fantasy Wikia.

But we've now split the said hairs and in doing so found the issue.

Who struck first during the meracidia campain? Was it Bahamut who lashed out against the Allagan Colonists, or did the Allagan Army strike first in an attempt to conquer it? No one save Tiamat her self is alive to tell. And she's far from a nonbiased source.

Even the Lore says that anything prior to the 5th Astral Era is questionable at best. So no one really knows.

We can only infure and speculate. I only take for fact what the community has accepted as "True till proven false". All else is wild speculation.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

But we've now split the said hairs and in doing so found the issue. Who struck first during the meracidia campain? Was it Bahamut who lashed out against the Allagan Colonists, or did the Allagan Army strike first in an attempt to conquer it? No one save Tiamat her self is alive to tell. And she's far from a nonbiased source..

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Agreed. This is the big question.

Until recently, I had assumed (perhaps falsely) that the Allagans were responsible for that one, since most of the the Main story and sub stories (save for a few supporting characters in the Crystal Tower series) have painted the Allagan Empire as some evil entity that was hyper aggressive and almost solely interested in development, growth and attaining power at all costs. The writers have not been very sympathetic to the Allagans, keeping to their usual theme of: "Empires are evil." It was Middy's (ridiculously short and vague) words that made me second guess my assumption.

He seemed to indicate that the conflict sparked after Bahamut and Tiamat left his side to find a new place to live and grow their brood/family. It planted the possibility in my head that, from the Allagan perspective, it may have appeared as though, quite suddenly, a bunch of Dragons just started popping up on their borders (or possibly within them, as we don't know how considerate or diplomatic True Bahamut would have been about it). It would be nice to get the details straight from the horses mouth, but, as you say, I don't think we can trust Tiamat or even Middy to be objective about it. The character traits that SE has made common among all Dragons in the game, so far, makes me distrustful of their honesty or ability to be objective about anything.

Tiamat said that she with Bahamut had lived peacefully on Meracyadia until the allagans came, yes I trust her version of events, that the dragons didnt started the conflict with the allagans. Honestly i see no reason why we should not believe on her.
Keep in mind Februs that the allagans were conquering everything till the point they had almost the entire planet. If an empire came with intentions to conquer a foreing country, you think it will end peacefully? Look the Eorzians and the Garleans. Most porbably it happened the same thing with the meracya dragons and the allagans.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

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I assumed this as well, and, despite the numerous historical examples of Empires expanding their borders through politics and marriages, I also assumed that the Allagans were more of a conquering type of people. The only thing that even made me question it was Middy's words, but even he did not specify when the conflict actually broke out. They could have been living there for decades before they even ran into the Allagans. That being said, I do not trust the Dragons to speak the truth, or at least not the whole truth, for a couple of reasons.

For one, when regarding the Allagan Empire in their notes on Odin, the Dev's made it a point to state that History is written by the victors, so we should take everything with grain of salt, because the allagans are not around to defend themselves. Secondly, the dragons are by far the most biased tellers of history, mostly because of their inherent character flaws.

So far, all of the dragons we have met suffer from the same character flaws: Vanity, Pride, Self-righteousness, and Self-entitlement. Despite the fact that they can be butchered like cattle, they seem to think their immortality somehow makes them superior or special and therefore except from the judgment. For example, Nidhogg uses his immortality as an excuse to sustain his lasting grudge and continued war of genocide. Tiamat uses her immortality to justify her guilt, grief, and continued imprisonment. She also already admitted that it was her compromised mindset that led to her summoning Bahamut in the first place, yet she continues to wallow in self-pity 5000 years later, despite knowing that it was that very mindset that lead to the terror of Bahamut. Hraeshvelgr uses his immortality to justify his lazy "I'm not involved" attitude because he is eternally grieving over eating Shiva (... yup). Yet, at the same time, he also maintains that he was totally justified in giving Nidhogg his eye, thereby allowing him to continue his war of genocide, despite supposedly still having Shiva's will inside of him. He also, at the drop of a hat, tells us that he could kill us in the blink of his one good eye if it weren't for that same immortal will stopping him from doing so. He then flaps off with his tale tucked between his legs, wallowing in more self-pity.. seriously?

At that point in the dialogue he is no better than any of the Primals or monsters we've left dead in our wake who all made the same claim and chose to underestimate us because of our mortality. You'd think the Dragons, with their immortal memories, would have learned that from their time warring with the Allagans, but I guess not. They seem to think themselves above any inconveniences that conflict with their pride and superiority. Consider that Hraeshvelgr didn't even tell us the story until we had pretty much found it out for ourselves. He conveniently left out the details. Tiamat strikes me as slightly more humble than that, but that doesn't mean that I trust her. She claims that her and Bahamut lived peacefully until the Allagans came, and I'm sure they did. I'm sure they had a very happy marriage... Just like I'm equally sure that she's leaving out some details about what happened or about the true character traits of Bahamut.

The reason why dragons have this behaviour with man is beacose of the allagans. so we I have never seen any dragon saing a lie.
For now we can asume that the origin of this conflict started with the allagans, have you ever visit azys la? I think so far we have learned more than enought of the atrosities the allagans have made, it makes kind of a perfect exucse of why dragons dont trust man.
Another thing about that history is written by victors, well this implies to dragons? only man does that, thats why there another reason why we should belive on their words

The dragonsong war is a different story, just to make clear I understand your point

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Originally Posted by Walluh

As far as I know the excuse for Nidhogg still being so angry is that 'dragons perceive time differently' so it seems like the betrayal is still recent..

Which...is one of the dumbest concepts I've ever heard, and makes absolutely no sense when applied to a sentient creature capable of plenty of thought, unless it's basically just a fancy way of saying dragons are extremely petty because they're immortal.

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The assumption that just because a being is immortal that they'd automatically have superior ethics and morality to shorter-lived creatures is a flawed starting point, imo.
Nidhogg is a petty, violent dragon driven mad by his grief. There's no reason to believe that a dragon would not have weaknesses in mental state or character just like a human; it just means if they do snap, the consequences for everyone around them are that much more extreme because of their power.

Hmm, with two dead, one insaine, and two more sucumed to grief, what are the final two missing Celestial Dragons like?

It's not beyond immagening in my book that they could be the Auri Dawn Father and Dusk Mother, but what of their mental state?

It seems the Dragons big braging point, their near immortality, is actually their biggest flaw seeing as how 3 of the five living Celestial Dragon have succumed to suvere mental disorders while Midguardsormr him self has decended into a near apathetic state even in regards to his own children.

Speaking of the final two... Has it been said which brood Aiatar came from?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Hmm, with two dead, one insaine, and two more sucumed to grief, what are the final two missing Celestial Dragons like?

It's not beyond immagening in my book that they could be the Auri Dawn Father and Dusk Mother, but what of their mental state?

It seems the Dragons big braging point, their near immortality, is actually their biggest flaw seeing as how 3 of the five living Celestial Dragon have succumed to suvere mental disorders while Midguardsormr him self has decended into a near apathetic state even in regards to his own children.

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He cares enough to worry for his son's & daughter's mental wellbeing, but strangely not a word about Hraesvelgr. But yes, Midgardsormr is pretty apathetic. I was under the impression that he deemed Nidhogg a lost cause.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

Speaking of the final two... Has it been said which brood Aiatar came from?

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Is that the boss from Bryflox Longstop?

If so, I'd think Nidhogg but at the same time Aiatar acts to diffrent to tell.

That and he see him in the same context as Dusk Vigil's Griffon. Simply a "Wtf is that?!?! Omg killi WoL, kill it!!!" With little to no exposition on what it's doing there and why.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

For now we can asume that the origin of this conflict started with the allagans, have you ever visit azys la? I think so far we have learned more than enought of the atrosities the allagans have made, it makes kind of a perfect exucse of why dragons dont trust man.

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Have you ever been to a Biology Laboratory, Research Facility or a Zoo? lol. It's not much different except the paint job is decidedly more sinister and Azys La has some seriously funky weather... The point is that, for me, I don't automatically assume the Allagans were "evil" by default because of a research facility that was founded with the purpose of efficiently winning a war. It's war. The act itself is terrible and requires speed and efficiency, even at the cost of ethics.

I do get what you're saying, though, and the war with the Allagans certainly would explain Nidhogg's attitude towards Humanoids. It makes me more curious about what happened in that war that might have directly influenced his attitude, specifically. Also, it's true that, as of yet, we don't know of any dragon telling us a baldfaced lie... However, we do know of one dragon whom has had no problem leaving out the truth when it's convenient.

That's more than enough proof for me that dragons are no different than humans when it comes to rewriting history. Ever heard of the saying that "half of writing history is covering it up?" That's exactly what Hraeshvelgr did. There was something he was ashamed/conflicted about, and he left out the details. It's completely understandable because it's something humans do all the time. Dragons are no different.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

Speaking of the final two... Has it been said which brood Aiatar came from?



He cares enough to worry for his son's & daughter's mental wellbeing, but strangely not a word about Hraesvelgr. But yes, Midgardsormr is pretty apathetic. I was under the impression that he deemed Nidhogg a lost cause.

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I was kinda surprised he didn't play a more active roll in the whole thing. Especially the scene with Tiamat. I was expecting him to smack some sense into her.

I mean, 5000 years of self-pity and never once trying to do something more healthy than stay chained up in Azys La? Allagan Empire is gone. Bahamut was chained up in a moon (though he did escape and blow up a sizable chunk of Eorzea, which, technically, she is also responsible for because she was the one who took up the Ascian's offer), and Nidhogg has been pursuing a war of genocide. She stood to be a symbol for the Dragons. She knows, first hand, how terrible and self destructive war can be when it is taken too far and could have been the unifying figure the Dragons have been lacking since the deaths of Bahamut and Middy (kinda. He was hibernating and is still not in top shape), and yet she is content to stay chained up in solitary confinement.

What does Middy say about all this? Not a darn thing. Way to be the voice of reason, Middy. Good job.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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As far as I can see, Middy has never interfer on his childs problem, tipical father of "is my son's problem and im not gonna join him"
We dont know why he was on that lake for so long, but there was a reason, is just we have discovered yet

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

As far as I can see, Middy has never interfer on his childs problem, tipical father of "is my son's problem and im not gonna join him"
We dont know why he was on that lake for so long, but there was a reason, is just we have discovered yet

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I've been assuming that he's just been recovering his power. We know that he's not invulnerable. The Garleans managed to mince up his body with airships, so he's definitely able to be killed/wounded... At least physically. Not sure if he can be completely killed, given he can preform some kind of astral projection out of his own body, but at least we know his body is not invulnerable. I mean, he did explode at some point. I'm guessing it takes some time to recover from that kind of thing...

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Originally Posted by Februs

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I dont understand your point, the conflit with the allagans and the dragonsong war happened long before even the gearleans showed up on the lake. He simple wanted to stay on a neutral position and not involve on their sons's issues

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I dont understand your point, the conflict with the allagans and the dragonsong war happened long before even the gearleans showed up on the lake. He simple wanted to stay on a neutral position and not involve on their sons's issues

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You lost me. What point?

I didn't say his dormancy had anything to do with either the Allagans or the Dragonsong War. His injuries didn't either. Also, before his time recovering on the Lake, we have no information whatsoever about how he regarded his children or what his role in the conflicts were. The only thing we know for certain is that he was the guardian of a place called "Silver Tear Falls" before he was killed by the Garleans. Other than that, there's not much to go on about his attitude.

If anything, the only past information we can go on is his dialogue with the player after we fight him, in which he seems to sympathize with Nidhogg saying : "We do not forget. We do not forgive ... Seven children did I sire. One now singeth of retribution. I rise to join the chorus." Though, since then, his attitude seems to have changed dramatically. Based on how he is acting now, he seems much more apathetic by comparison.

As for why he spent so much time on the lake, I said that I assumed he stayed dormant wrapped around the Garlean Flagship Agrias because he needed to hibernate and recover his power after the ship exploded and took his body with it... but I'm not sure if that's the "point" you were talking about. I wasn't really making a point so much as stating a fact. There's a cutscene that shows his "death," and, after he wakes up, he assumes a tiny form while he gathers his powers again. This is pretty common knowledge as it all happens on screen.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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I think that before, he didnt trust us, and saw us like any orther ignorant mortal. But now we have passed his trial, he seems to trust on the WoL and show his respects.

Because it would fuel the cycle.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I think that before, he didnt trust us, and saw us like any orther ignorant mortal. But now we have passed his trial, he seems to trust on the WoL and show his respects.

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It would seem so. I think he wanted to confirm with his own eyes that we were worthy of Hydaelyn's blessing. His witnessing of our actions, and our Trial against the Knights, seems to be what swayed him to our cause. I do wish that Middy had played a more active role in the plot though. He only has a couple notable appearances throughout 3.0. Given that he was with us the whole time, I kinda wish we had more of him in cutscenes and whatnot; though, it's good enough to know that he bore witness to the events.

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Originally Posted by Februs

It would seem so. I think he wanted to confirm with his own eyes that we were worthy of Hydaelyn's blessing. His witnessing of our actions, and our Trial against the Knights, seems to be what swayed him to our cause. I do wish that Middy had played a more active role in the plot though. He only has a couple notable appearances throughout 3.0. Given that he was with us the whole time, I kinda wish we had more of him in cutscenes and whatnot; though, it's good enough to know that he bore witness to the events.

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I believe the devs said at some point we'd be getting some answers to Middy's purpose as Lake Guardian, His Arrival in Eorzea, and his Relationship with Hydaelyn through out the 3.x story cycle.

That may help fill in some of the long standing mysteries about Midgardsormr.

This reminds me of the Daedra argument from TES forums.

Dragons in FFXIV, much like Daedra in TES, have a completely different set of morals and ethics. To them, this might not even be what we would call "Evil".

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

This reminds me of the Daedra argument from TES forums.

Dragons in FFXIV, much like Daedra in TES, have a completely different set of morals and ethics. To them, this might not even be what we would call "Evil".

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Which part are you referring to? Both sides considered themselves at war with each other. None of the other dragons outside of Niddhogg wanted to continue fighting, but they knew even if they killed Niddhogg, the Holy See would not stop fighting until all the dragons were eradicated. It wasn't a matter of good vs. evil.

I'm saying that to dragons, Nidhogg's actions could very well be normal, acceptable behavior.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I'm saying that to dragons, Nidhogg's actions could very well be normal, acceptable behavior.

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Midguardsormr's reaction says otherwise

Seems to me like Nidhogg's sanity is so far gone he doesn't even remember why he's fighting.

The way Nidhogg behaves is more like a common scale kin than a great wyrm. Even his own father and brother can't condone his actions.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

The way Nidhogg behaves is more like a common scale kin than a great wyrm. Even his own father and brother can't condone his actions.

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While it's hard to really say how Midgardsormr feels about Nidhogg's millennium-long crusade against Ishgard, Hraesvelgr for his part doesn't really condemn him. I believe he said something along the lines of "If it weren't for Shiva's soothing spirit, I would be right there with him!" and he knew from the very beginning that if he saved Nidhogg the latter would go on an eternal war of vengeance against the descendants of the Knights and their nation. (Literally eternal, as in his goal is not to win but to make Ishgardians suffer. Forever. Such sadism cannot be justified on any level, but still, Hraesvelgr is all like "It's your fault, man!") This puts Hraesvelgr in the odd position of "I want to join my brother, but my soulmate's... soul is bound to me and keeping me calm, so I'm just gonna mope around Zenith forever."

Midgardsormr seems more contemplative than condemning when he sees resurrected Nidhogg, as he simply asks what Nidhogg's fury has done to him. He clearly understands why Nidhogg feels the way he does, but makes no actual condemnation of his actions. Heck, he recognizes Aymeric and the rest of the welcoming party not as themselves, but as "children of Thordan," so clearly he understands Nidhogg's angle. Just not why he absolutely refuses to let go of his rage. He is the one dragon that seems to truly understand the difference between the values of dragons and the values of mortals, and so does his best to be a mediator.

Nidhogg's sanity may have been severely eroded by Ratatoskr's murder and his own maiming, but he still has mental faculties of some kind, as can be inferred by him calling Estinien's use of his own power against him depraved. With such little screen time, it's hard to say how the resurrected Nidhogg will behave; how much influence does Estinien have over him, if any? (Doesn't matter; if he gets in my way, I will cut him down as I did once before.) He's quite close to being a feral beast, and definitely nothing like the celestial wyrm he is meant to be, but he still has some measure of intellect and some sort of value system.

Nidhogg's minions target Hraesvelgr's brood. I'd say Nidhogg has slipped beyond just normal draconic reasoning. He and his brood has become consumed by hate to the point of madness. The Darkscale FATE chain in the Churning Mists shows this pretty well.

That's more what my angle was. It's like Nidhogg has become a psudo primal and his wrath has actually tempered all of his brood into a mindless blood lust. Hrasvelgr's brood seems rational, and in many ways tiered, in regards to the war.

After all if thousands of years go by like days to them it's be like the ONE TV show you never liked having an all week marathon on the only channel you get.

But Nidhogg's sadistic blood lust truely doesn't know friend nor for and is so strong as to seemingly temper his children with his hate.

I won't make any assumptions about the resurrection as Middy has been walking around with us after seemingly cheating death for 20 years. So with enough Aether apparently coporial bodies are negotiable to an extent.

I think there's a lot more going on in what actually started the dragonsong war. We didn't see the king and knights eat they eyes with the echo.

And there's pieces of alagan restraints in the arey. For all we know Nidhogg some how started it all him self in some way he may have wanted a reason to break the utopia people and dragons built together.

I have a feeling it wasn't simply a utopia. You have to very different people together. Nidhogg though I have a feeling held a grudge towards mortals that predated the Elezen. I think he has issues that date back to the Allag. He tells Hraesvelgr that he told him not to trust the mortals.

The other thing I've been wondering on is Koji Fox said the lyrics of Dragonsong, the theme song, had potential double meanings much like Answers in what they refered to and Koji wrote them after he had seen what was planned for the story of the 3.X patch cycle. I'm wondering it perhaps Ratatoskr was attempting to maintain peace between the two races and Nidhogg manipulated things somewhat in hopes of triggering the war. He was the first on the scene.

That's not to say Thordan is innocent. Just that it was Nidhogg that set up the situation that allowed Thordan to do his thing.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I have a feeling it wasn't simply a utopia. You have to very different people together. Nidhogg though I have a feeling held a grudge towards mortals that predated the Elezen. I think he has issues that date back to the Allag. He tells Hraesvelgr that he told him not to trust the mortals.

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Before anything happened Dragons were fighting mortals but the the actions of Hraesvelgr and Saint Shiva brought an end to this war and I think Nidhogg was referring to this period of time when he said "Don't trust mortals".

King Thordan is not innocent and his actions cannot be justified. I don't think Nidhogg was setting up anything since the life of his sister perhaps equals the life of thousands of Ishgardians and it was a great loss to dragons when she was murdered. Don't forget that Nidhogg gained nothing from it and in fact he was almost got killed at that time.

Well, for all we know Nidhogg has further bad blood with mortals, as can be inferred by his telling Hraesvelgr not to trust us [mortals] and the bits of Allagan machinery in the Aery. This, combined with the Guidance Node stating another dragon escaped Azys Lla at some point in the past (I forget the exact date) suggests Nidhogg may have once been held captive similar to Tiamat. He may not have wanted to start the Dragonsong War and may have been content just leaving the mortals alone, but he clearly went off the deep end after Ratatoskr's murder and his maiming; he's a sadistic monster during 3.0, and was probably the same for most of the preceding millennium.

King Thordan and the Knights Twelve' actions are by no means justifiable or forgivable. At the same time, that doesn't mean their children, and their children's children, for eternity, should suffer for it. Most modern Ishgardians (keyword: most) would probably be content to leave the dragons alone and fight only in self-defense. Aside from one slightly... deranged knight in the Western Highlands, we never seek out dragons to fight and kill for its own sake. The knights are generally full of bravado, but they appear to be fine with leaving the dragons alone.

In the end, the blame for the war lies on both sides. Thordan and the Knights Twelve killing Ratatoskr and maiming Nidhogg (to the point they actually believed him dead) cannot be forgiven, but Nidhogg (and Hraesvelgr through him) is not blameless for perpetuating an endless cycle of violence and death because he refuses to recognize that the people he's now fighting do not know why they are being killed and tormented and are more or less fighting in self-defense; or he simply doesn't care, and only wants to see them suffer more.

To directly answer the question, "Why does Ysayle want to protect Nidhogg?"
-She believes killing him will only perpetuate the cycle of revenge, similar to how us offing Tioman during our ascent up Sohm Al did. She has a point, but seeing as how Nidhogg is the origin of the cycle and the one most responsible for its perpetuation, cutting out the root of the problem was our best bet. (And it would have been, if not for Pope Thordan's lust for power and vengeance...)
-Alternatively, she did not want to kill Nidhogg because she cannot believe that her entire worldview (dragons are better than men) is flawed. The reveal that Nidhogg is little more than a sadistic monster, and later that Hraesvelgr is not blameless, completely breaks her.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

King Thordan and the Knights Twelve' actions are by no means justifiable or forgivable.

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The echo sequence about the surviving Knights Twelve and the two eyes of Nidhogg actually made me question this more than sympathize with the dragons.

The whole thing was kind of put aside in the subsequent cutscenes in favour of focusing solely on the fact that Nidhogg lost both his eyes and Hraesvelgr gave up one, but the Elezen knights they showed in that cutscene hardly seemed capable of plotting such a diabolical and sinister attack on Ratatoskr. Most of them were so disheartened by the events that they gave up their knighthoods and nobility in favour or common lives, and the ones who stayed only did so to keep the country from falling into catastrophe from lack of leadership in the face of possible Dragon retaliation. Out of all of the survivors, only one or two of them seemed even remotely "sinister" based on their behaviour in the cutscene, and even that's a stretch...

All in all, I'm more inclined to lay blame at the feet of the mastermind rather than those who got swept up in the plan. This means Theodan and possibly Nidhogg, as I don't trust that he had nothing to do with it until after the attack, and the possibility that there was someone behind the scenes pulling their strings. The reason I mention that is because someone might have told Theodan about the power of Dragon eyes and how it could be harnessed. He could have figured it out on his own, of course, but he could also have been manipulated into it by an Ascian or perhaps even Nidhogg himself (dumb plan, given he also lost his eyes, but he wouldn't have been the first villain to underestimate his chosen opponents). The echo can be frustratingly short on the small details sometimes. I'm hoping we get a better picture of it all when we track down and skin Nidhogg alive in subsequent patches.

I think there is more about the origin about the dragonsong war we still haven't seen. Did anyone take a close look to a guy called Marcechamp in Talifeather? Did anyone notice who does he look like?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I think there is more about the origin about the dragonsong war we still haven't seen. Did anyone take a close look to a guy called Marcechamp in Talifeather? Did anyone notice who does he look like?

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As far as the AST chain goes, he tells us that Ishgard considers Tailfeather as citizens, but he holds a grudge because the city chooses not to send help nor medical aid.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

As far as the AST chain goes, he tells us that Ishgard considers Tailfeather as citizens, but he holds a grudge because the city chooses not to send help nor medical aid.

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Isn't that what I meaned. Anyway maybe was I tried to said is just a coincidence, but maybe not.
Seriously, nobody notice that Marcechamp looks exacly like one of the 12 knights?

I think there is a common thread with the Celestial dragons that they are all trapped in the past. Tiamat is consumed by her shame and guilt, Hreasvelgr is a hermit lost in sadness and a sense of betrayal, and Nidhogg is consumed by hatred of crimes in the past. This is the flipside of the dragons perspective. They are so caught up in the past that it comes at the cost of the future. None of the Celestial dragons are doing a good job looking after their broods. None of them really seem to be thinking of their peoples futures. They are all caught up in their own issues.

I suspect that as the dragonsong war plays out, that factor will come into play. Probably the greatest thing the WoL can do for the Dragons is pull their leaders and elders out of the pits they have dug for themselves and remind them they have kin that depend on them for leadership.

I'm pretty certain the entire Dragonsong War was orchestrated by Ascians.
The whole 'eat a dragon = get power' plan the knights went for sounds a lot like the shpiel Ascians use to get people to summon Primals. They put the idea into the heads of the first Ishgardians, I will bet on it.