Please Implement Auto-Reclaim on Disconnect (90% success, 10% failure)

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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They could get away with adding more crafting conditions that encourages you to rethink your step instead of following a flowchart. For example, aside from the poor/normal/good/excellent (which only has influence on quality increases), you could get "mental" states that gives you a buff for that specific step, such as

- Steady: Adds a 50% success rate to that step
- Ingenious : Current step is = your level or bonus increase to progress
- Frugal : CP cost is lowered by 20
- Impatient : Non-CS steps have success rates reduced by 30%

So on and so fourth. I'd rather them find a way to make crafting more engaging than following a flow chart and pray your 80/90% touches work.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

Personally I think this problem stems from two issues:
A) Item progress must be completed at the end.
B) Byregot's is superior at the end and often grants ~20-40% of an items quality.

If these two limitations were changed/removed then things would change notable. For instance if you could complete 100% of your progress at any time and instead your synthesis ends when durability reaches 0 (or less) then progress could be done dynamically. Rather than trying to hit an exact mark you could try more dangerous options without concern of overshooting.
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There's just not enough steps/durability to get your quality increases from anywhere else. If we were to not factor BB in the current setup, you'd need well around 13 successful touches to get to at least 80% HQ rate. And besides, BB getting "Half your quality" is contingent on you getting that many successful IQ stacks in the first place anyway.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Yea exactly. I can't recall if it was here or another thread, but I'll restate it: I don't think RNG is bad, in fact I think the Conditions procs are an excellent use of RNG. I believe that success rate RNG is awful and lazy (especially in regards to crafting and materia melding). The most reaction you get from success rate RNG is that you might have to swap a few hasty touches for rapid synths or you might have to just Reclaim and pray.

I think that Whistle stacks doing special things on 3,6, and 9 was a cool idea and I think Trained Hand and Precise Touch were really good ideas as well. Even the concept of Heart of the Crafter is a really cool idea I've been hoping to see, but it was poorly executed. I'd like to see them rework Ingenuity I and II so they actually do different things rather than slightly better and more expensive (same with WNI/II and CSI/II).

I think that the Aspect: Element condition on ARR recipes could've been handled better. If instead of it being a recipe specific thing they could've had chances for a recipe to get the attune to one of the two elements associated with the recipe (ex: Fire/Earth for BSM) so there would be a reason to cross class Brand skills.

Honestly, even something as simple as Traits so that Comfort Zone and TotT is better on Alchemist than on other classes would've been great. Culinarian could get 100% Reclaim. There are a lot of possibilities here to make BSM feel different from ARM rather than just a slight tune up on which cross class skills you get while the rotation stays more or less the same.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's just not enough steps/durability to get your quality increases from anywhere else. If we were to not factor BB in the current setup, you'd need well around 13 successful touches to get to at least 80% HQ rate. And besides, BB getting "Half your quality" is contingent on you getting that many successful IQ stacks in the first place anyway.

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Oh no my proposal would almost certainly require some serious quality adjustments and other dynamic changes to abilities. IQ could be kept but the BB finisher would have to be axed. But I stand by the believe that having progress and quality as one hit finishes at the end is 90% of the dynamic crafting problem.

It would be like if you had to exactly kill a boss, and if you did too much damage you failed. That's basically where crafting is at right now... which is insane.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

Oh no my proposal would almost certainly require some serious quality adjustments and other dynamic changes to abilities. IQ could be kept but the BB finisher would have to be axed. But I stand by the believe that having progress and quality as one hit finishes at the end is 90% of the dynamic crafting problem.

It would be like if you had to exactly kill a boss, and if you did too much damage you failed. That's basically where crafting is at right now... which is insane.

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Actually, doing too much damage in some instances can cause a wipe. Killing an alarum too soon/off position for example, or pushing an hp threshold too soon on most primals.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The thing is, you'r more-or-less predetermined when using something like WNII. You want to use at least 7 out of the 8 hits, otherwise every step you aren't using it is wasted (thus most people have it pre-determined with 5 HT+SHII and 2 CSII to use up those 7 steps). And everything after that becomes a flowchart at that point; Good but no SH? TotT. TotT at least once before this point? Use Precise Touch. etc etc. There's far too few meaningful variables for "making smart decisions" to be the case imo.

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I agree that the crafting system is flow chart like by nature, but I also believe that there's more to it than simply deciding when or when not to use TotT/precise touch/basic touch. My personal flow chart is quite a bit more detailed.

To be honest, the kind of approach you're describing is pre 2.4 and works well now because of the reduced difficulty of the crafts in general and higher base CP available. You have to remember that WNII is a large CP investment and that it could be used for other purposes other than 5 HT and 2 CS2. Using it in that manner is CP efficient, but you're also sacrificing flexibility. It works well under average rng, but when things go south, flexibility is key to pulling yourself out of trouble as best as you can.

You mention using tricks of the trade when SH is down. But is that always a good idea? Why not use tricks when SH2 is up? As long as you keep treating good/excellent procs as mere bonuses, you're limiting your options.

Hypothetically speaking, if you managed to get 40 CP or 60 CP during and immediately after the flawless synthesis phase when SH is down, would you take the craft in the same direction?

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Originally Posted by MN_14

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I understand that crafting requires you to look at how much cp you have, remaining durability, steps to completion, IQ stacks and many other variables that cause crafts to deviate from being a simple flow chart you can find online or in the forums. I realize that due to RNG sometimes you need to modify your rotation on the fly. To me this is common sense stuff. I'd assume someone that has gotten to this point and done Master Craft II books has figured out math and having a contingency plan prepared if shit gets real. So the crafting 101 advice isn't really necessary.

What I've been trying to say is that even if you handle the RNG in the most flexible manner possible you are still standing on the shoulders of RNGesus. If you fail 5 hasty touches and then Reclaim there is no rotation flexibility that will save you. Your options are to take a 40-50% HQ or Reclaim and if Reclaim fails then you are basically screwed even though you made all the right decisions. Once is once too many. Getting screwed simply because RNG told you no is shit design for a game. Period.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

What I've been trying to say is that even if you handle the RNG in the most flexible manner possible you are still standing on the shoulders of RNGesus. If you fail 5 hasty touches and then Reclaim there is no rotation flexibility that will save you. Your options are to take a 40-50% HQ or Reclaim and if Reclaim fails then you are basically screwed even though you made all the right decisions. Once is once too many. Getting screwed simply because RNG told you no is shit design for a game. Period.

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Personally, I think it would be uninteresting if I was absolutely guaranteed an HQ each time. It's also true that failing 5 hasty touches would put any crafter in a tight spot, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you will end up with a 40-50% HQ. Yesterday, I crafted three 2* items starting from 1500-1900 quality and got 100% for only one of them. For one of the other items, I had 4 misses, but managed to end up with 87%. The last one was even worse in that there were 5 misses, but I still ended up with 78%. Yes, I'm still crafting with 721 craftmanship and 728 control with a food buff.

It's these things that I find interesting. For me, it's the bad synths that are far more fascinating to look at than the good ones, but I realize that not everyone will agree with that.

NQs are annoying, but I've probably crafted close to 70 items in total now and I've only fallen below 9 stacks of IQ once. I really don't think rng is that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

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I'd also find it boring if it were a straight shot to success, however, I don't think the way it's handled is very interesting. True when everything lands (which always seems to be the case on lumber and ingots) the crafts themselves are a face roll. However, getting 100% on something that I probably should've failed doesn't particularly make me feel skilled, rather it makes me feel like I just got really lucky. This usually happens on BSM synths because it's rather tricky to get Reclaim as a cross class. I've had a few synths where I failed 4-5 SH2+HT and proceeded to land 4 out of 5 naked HTs and a naked BB+GS for 100% HQ. You might pat yourself on the back for that, but because it's all RNG I simply get no satisfaction out of that.

You might think I'm insane, but I thought the Master II book turn-ins were more interesting because success was more dependent on effective use of condition procs than anything. This tier of recipes is more about getting as many touches and having as much CP as possible to mitigate the bad RNG.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

I'd also find it boring if it were a straight shot to success, however, I don't think the way it's handled is very interesting. True when everything lands (which always seems to be the case on lumber and ingots) the crafts themselves are a face roll. However, getting 100% on something that I probably should've failed doesn't particularly make me feel skilled, rather it makes me feel like I just got really lucky.

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I understand your point and definitely agree that a lot can be done to make crafting much more interesting. I guess the difference is that I don't consider the current type of RNG system to be broken as you'll get your HQ the vast majority of times anyways and there is also potentially a half decent amount of variation in your approach for each craft. It would still definitely benefit from changes for sure.

Lol, this thread has certainly changed topics. It could probably use a name change.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

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Using tricks when SH is only viable when you have left over steps (due to durability) or you don't have something like WNII active (where it loses value for every step it's not used). That being said, the setup I'm using only allows for one tricks during my SHII after WNII is used, and only one Tricks during SHII. Which...is still a flow chart mentality rather than adjusting on the go; Each and every step has a pre-determined plan based on whether or not it's good or normal condition and whether is it ok or not to use tricks. That, and the success rate of HT/FS (which then determines whether or not you should reclaim at the end) are the only existing variables and that has led to pre-planned actions for each and every step.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

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Yea I take the blame for derailing the topic but to be honest I prefer complaining about crafting rather than the disconnect issue. I've lost faith that they'd implement such a basic QoL feature because adding pokemon: FFXIV edition is much more important.

As a side note, this topic has gotten me to look at using WNII in my rotation and adjusting what I do a little and I think for the better. However, it also made me realize that a lot of the flexibility that you've mentioned are really limited by the CP you have available, as you've suggested. The problem I have with this is your stats, while far from being capped, are also a long road away from being the casual friendly crafting system that HW crafting, red scrip gear, and specialization was suppose to provide.

For what it's worth my first 2* craft was my BSM Off-hand: 718 Craftsmanship, 695 Control, 373 CP with food buff (HQ Baked Onion) and I got ~80% HQ on it (it HQ'd). I recall 437 being the magic break point for when WNII can be feasibly used in a 2* rotation, but mileage may vary. My point here is that it's really hard to argue that the current system allows new crafters to enter the crafting scene when you either need to spend millions on melds just to craft the gear or spend weeks getting the scrips to get a MH to even begin crafting. I kind of think this is where specialization could've shined by providing a Craftsmanship/Control/CP bonus rather than a skill set that is arguably worse than an omnicrafter rotation.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Except an automatic Reclaim would occur if you did not have the skill slotted, and would occur whether you had the CP for it or not.

Run out of CP on a craft that goes sour? Disconnect to force a Reclaim would be abusing it.

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Yup, it's a bad idea. idk why it doesn't just work like triple triad does.

If you dc in the middle of a TT game, you come back where you left off, just the timer keeps going. Since crafting doesn't have a timer that part would be irrelevant. And it wouldn't be abusable in any way.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Yup, it's a bad idea. idk why it doesn't just work like triple triad does.

If you dc in the middle of a TT game, you come back where you left off, just the timer keeps going. Since crafting doesn't have a timer that part would be irrelevant. And it wouldn't be abusable in any way.

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Having something like that would be too convenient and make too much sense. Easier to just have people submit tickets.

We need something.. the current state of affairs is terrible. Especially since many disconnections are their servers themselves.

If the Auto-Reclaim-on-DC only kicks in if:

1. Reclaim is a Class skill or is cross-classed in, and
2. The crafters has enough CP to perform the reclaim,

I see no problem with this feature, though I'd probably never use it.
I see no way to abuse it, since it is effectively the same as the player manually activating Reclaim.

That said, I'd rather they spent the resources on fixing the DC's instead, if that's possible and they have to make a choice. In a perfect world they'd add this and fix the DC's.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

That said, I'd rather they spent the resources on fixing the DC's instead, if that's possible and they have to make a choice. In a perfect world they'd add this and fix the DC's.

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I concur. I'm a performance engineer at work and analyzing memory, CPU and network problems (etc) is part of my job. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt the servers are just dropping people sometimes somewhere between the last ping outside their lab and to the servers themselves. They have got to fix the connection problem fundamentally and I to hope they invest in this before giving us some other features we don't need.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

If the Auto-Reclaim-on-DC only kicks in if:

1. Reclaim is a Class skill or is cross-classed in, and
2. The crafters has enough CP to perform the reclaim,

I see no problem with this feature, though I'd probably never use it.
I see no way to abuse it, since it is effectively the same as the player manually activating Reclaim.

That said, I'd rather they spent the resources on fixing the DC's instead, if that's possible and they have to make a choice. In a perfect world they'd add this and fix the DC's.

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In a perfect world the game would be capable of saving your progress because there is no reason I should be forced to use a Reclaim because the shit server 90k me.

Instead of the Reclaim on disconnect proc, I'd prefer an 'offline' crafting option, not sure how it 100% work but maybe there's something there to look at

Put it in the Inn Rooms I guess. Already we cannot use items, craft, or teleport when within the City-State Inns. I wonder if it's possible to make the Inn Rooms full-fledged offline lobbies. Allow crafting in them. No disconnect possible. However if your power goes out or your PC crashes mid synthesis I suppose you're still out of luck.

Partly favor a change like this because since Housing was implemented the Inn Rooms have lost their significance slightly. Add the 'sleep' > logoff option to Bed furnishing for housing and add the toy box tabletop furniture item (is there one already), then really the only other purpose of Inn Rooms is to rewartch old CSs.

And if people wanna are AFKing but don't want to suck bandwidth, sit in the room oppose to logging out. /shrug (Sometimes I just like to look at my toon)

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Instead of the Reclaim on disconnect proc, I'd prefer an 'offline' crafting option, not sure how it 100% work but maybe there's something there to look at

Put it in the Inn Rooms I guess. Already we cannot use items, craft, or teleport when within the City-State Inns. I wonder if it's possible to make the Inn Rooms full-fledged offline lobbies. Allow crafting in them. No disconnect possible. However if your power goes out or your PC crashes mid synthesis I suppose you're still out of luck.

Partly favor a change like this because since Housing was implemented the Inn Rooms have lost their significance slightly. Add the 'sleep' > logoff option to Bed furnishing for housing and add the toy box tabletop furniture item (is there one already), then really the only other purpose of Inn Rooms is to rewartch old CSs.

And if people wanna are AFKing but don't want to suck bandwidth, sit in the room oppose to logging out. /shrug (Sometimes I just like to look at my toon)

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That would be a neat idea! The only problem with that is that it opens more potential for hacking the client. That's the reason why games are online-only, is so that the server can monitor for illicit activity.

As for your toy box: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...e/73059e876ec/ (and yes you can play the mini-games from it)

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Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

That would be a neat idea! The only problem with that is that it opens more potential for hacking the client. That's the reason why games are online-only, is so that the server can monitor for illicit activity.

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Unfortunately Techno is 100% correct here, the second you allow offline anything in the client it means the data is fully contained in client memory and later uploaded... it would take hackers less than a few days to unravel the memory bits for something like a HQ vs NQ flag and then create an inject hack to force the good to always be HQ. The process for something like that is insanely simple so its not an option. This is the same reason D3 for PCs never offered an offline mode because it greatly limited hacking opportunities in comparison to the previous Diablo client designs (which were some of the most hacked games in history).

Fairest simple solution - if you DC, you have a 50% chance of not losing your materials, same as if you failed the synth without Reclaim. As far as I know, DCing = 100% chance of losing all the mats, but failing = 50%.

If you had Reclaim already up when you DCed, it should be a 90%/10% chance, but that would require them to know you used Reclaim when you DCed, which is unlikely possible without being able to just save the whole synth anyway.

If it's possible to keep the mats on a DC with a 50% chance already, ignore me :D

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

Fairest simple solution - if you DC, you have a 50% chance of not losing your materials, same as if you failed the synth without Reclaim. As far as I know, DCing = 100% chance of losing all the mats, but failing = 50%.

If you had Reclaim already up when you DCed, it should be a 90%/10% chance, but that would require them to know you used Reclaim when you DCed, which is unlikely possible without being able to just save the whole synth anyway.

If it's possible to keep the mats on a DC with a 50% chance already, ignore me :D

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I don't think so. DC counts as 'canceling' and not 'failing', so it's 100% loss instead.

FIX YOUR @#$%@#%#$% SERVERS SE

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

FIX YOUR @#$%@#%#$% SERVERS SE

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I'm going to assume you lost something 2-star to a DC... if so, you have my condolences. Finding a way to keep exorbitantly expensive and difficult crafts from being lost when the servers so much as hiccup should be top or near top priority for SE... It's a real f*cking kick in the teeth that Square obviously doesn't care or understand the amount of time and effort these level 60 2-star crafts take. And the "sorry, you're SoL" response you get from sending a ticket about losing 10s of millions of gil and hours and hours of nonstop grinding is just depressing. But hey! LORD OF VERMINION! PLEASE LOOK FORWARD TO IT.

I was "lucky" and only lost a piece of wood. But I'm still furious because that piece of wood is worth at least 1.5 million on my server... I'm so POed. I keep reminding myself I need to open a ping to our server when I craft. I finally went ahead and made a batch file. For some stupid reason pinging the server non stop reduces the chance of a sudden 90k drop (not induced by my own internet). This game has the WORST connectivity recovery of any MMO I've ever played. Its absolutely terrible.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

I was "lucky" and only lost a piece of wood. But I'm still furious because that piece of wood is worth at least 1.5 million on my server... I'm so POed. I keep reminding myself I need to open a ping to our server when I craft. I finally went ahead and made a batch file. For some stupid reason pinging the server non stop reduces the chance of a sudden 90k drop (not induced by my own internet). This game has the WORST connectivity recovery of any MMO I've ever played. Its absolutely terrible.

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I started connecting to the game through WTFast, and it kind of helps. I don't know if your idea about pinging the server preventing 90ks is true, but it does let me know when packets start dropping (if you're watching the WTFast window on the side) so I know whether to not start crafting or not (doesn't work all the time, but it's saved me a few times -- decided *not* to craft, got disconnected a minute later).

The "pinging server to prevent 90k" seems like confirmation bias. Just because I've never been attacked by a herd of elephants doesn't mean that this "magic" rock I keep on my desk is what prevents it.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

The "pinging server to prevent 90k" seems like confirmation bias. Just because I've never been attacked by a herd of elephants doesn't mean that this "magic" rock I keep on my desk is what prevents it.

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Well duh. It's the half empty bag of cheetos.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

The "pinging server to prevent 90k" seems like confirmation bias. Just because I've never been attacked by a herd of elephants doesn't mean that this "magic" rock I keep on my desk is what prevents it.

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It may be. With that said I'm a performance engineer and I'm 90% sure the root of the 90k problems is the SE servers have no tolerance for packet loss or network delay. In my case I know somewhere near Canada there is a hop which is not optimal. And keeping a ping going appears to help keep the connection alive. I could be wrong but in practice this has helped.