How likely is Alex savage to be nerfed.

They might add echo or simply allow you to do the fights with no ilvl sync when new gear is out months from now. But I would doubt they are going to nerf mechanics in savage.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Yes, I do expect they will add them to a weekly Void Ark completion quest.

Also, I suspect that the delay in the weekly quest giving out Encrypted Tomestones until 2.55 had more to do with maintaining Relic viability rather than anything to do with FCoB since Carboncoat and Carbontwine were available through hunts at the very start of 2.5.

When Syrcus Tower was released in 2.3, it was quickly determined that running the Tower for an Unidentified Tomestone and then doing hunts for the Sand was a much easier and less of a hassle for a similar reward than working a relic up to i110. This caused a steep drop in the number of players working on relics. To avoid a repeat of that they delayed easy access to Encrypted Tomestones until the Relic was superior.

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The old argument then was that raiders already had access to the gear and that CT was the "catch-up" patch. When 3.1 drops, there is going to be no catch up needed since alex savage will still be current content. I don't see hundreds and hundreds of statics getting clears by mid october, why would Yoshida choose to destroy those people's progression by showering everyone with 210 gear?

I think you are hoping for way too much if you want twines before most raiders can get them.

3.2 echo. 3.2X somethings people still can't understand how to do...
oh and gear.

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Originally Posted by zosia

The old argument then was that raiders already had access to the gear and that CT was the "catch-up" patch. When 3.1 drops, there is going to be no catch up needed since alex savage will still be current content. I don't see hundreds and hundreds of statics getting clears by mid october, why would Yoshida choose to destroy those people's progression by showering everyone with 210 gear?

I think you are hoping for way too much if you want twines before most raiders can get them.

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I think most raiders will be getting their twines out of Void Ark.

I also honestly believe that Savage was a "fine, you want to bitch the content isn't hard enough, here, have at this you whining little snots" thing.

This isn't a hardcore raid game. The difficulty of Savage coupled with the 'git gud' permeating attitude just tells me they threw it out there knowing it was too hard to shut the whiners up.

I doubt Savage will get nerfed or have the Echo. It has no story to it and only exists for those who want a challenge and the loot. I could go so far as to say that Alexander Normal is what Alexander Savage would be if it were nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I think most raiders will be getting their twines out of Void Ark.

I also honestly believe that Savage was a "fine, you want to bitch the content isn't hard enough, here, have at this you whining little snots" thing.

This isn't a hardcore raid game. The difficulty of Savage coupled with the 'git gud' permeating attitude just tells me they threw it out there knowing it was too hard to shut the whiners up.

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I don't see why SE would do this. Mid-core raid statics comprise the majority of raiders in this game, just as in any game. If I had to make a guess, only about 20% or so of the FCoB raid talent will get a4s clears before any big nerfs. SE would let down 80% of their raiding population to shut up the bleeding edge elite seems like a poor strategy to retain it's midcore player base.

It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think it was just an oversight on SE part. They underestimated the demand by the community for more mid-core raid content. SE needs soooo much more content around the difficulty of Ex primals. Content that is difficult, but pug-able. Content that is challenging and compelling, but you can still do it despite the time of day or if you have a static or not.

Echo in Alexander isn't canon with the lore.

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Originally Posted by zosia

I don't see why SE would do this. Mid-core raid statics comprise the majority of raiders in this game, just as in any game. If I had to make a guess, only about 20% or so of the FCoB raid talent will get a4s clears before any big nerfs. SE would let down 80% of their raiding population to shut up the bleeding edge elite seems like a poor strategy to retain it's midcore player base.

It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think it was just an oversight on SE part. They underestimated the demand by the community for more mid-core raid content. SE needs soooo much more content around the difficulty of Ex primals. Content that is difficult, but pug-able. Content that is challenging and compelling, but you can still do it despite the time of day or if you have a static or not.

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There is no point to having "midcore" raid statics now.

Either you're banging your head up on Savage, or you LolDutyFinder Normal in about an hour and be done for the week.

*That* is the biggest problem I have with the game right now as a side note.

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Originally Posted by zosia

The old argument then was that raiders already had access to the gear and that CT was the "catch-up" patch. When 3.1 drops, there is going to be no catch up needed since alex savage will still be current content. I don't see hundreds and hundreds of statics getting clears by mid october, why would Yoshida choose to destroy those people's progression by showering everyone with 210 gear?

I think you are hoping for way too much if you want twines before most raiders can get them.

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How is that destroying their progression? By mid-october most players will have a fair amount of Eso gear, if raiders still aren't able to complete the floor they're on (or hit a wall as some might say) the 210 gear will help them break down that wall and progress further.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Also, as it pertains to nerfs, midcore raid statics are more the norm than the exception, what are they supposed to do? Bang their heads against a3s until the next raid tier comes out?

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The simple answer is yes

I don't see them tweaking the fights like they did with the original T7. Likewise, I don't see them adding echo for it... Over-gearing (above the ilvl reward) the fight is probably the "nerf" that the encounter will get in the future much like SCoB Savage. If the concern is getting the upgrade materials, they'll probably put it in a different content for people to obtain them from.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

The simple answer is yes

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people won't stick around for it. If I was in that situation, I would definitely leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

How is that destroying their progression? By mid-october most players will have a fair amount of Eso gear, if raiders still aren't able to complete the floor they're on (or hit a wall as some might say) the 210 gear will help them break down that wall and progress further.

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It spoils the challenge. No raid team wants to be the guys who got their clears after any perceivable "nerfs." A lot of raiders see the loot pinata that WoD is as an indirect nerf via over gearing since gear progression is highly increased at that point. The last two fights in alex savage take a very long time to learn, even for server 1st groups. There are going to be people pushing for their 1st a4s kills in the next month or two. Why would you want to take that away from them? Do people really need their 210 gear at the start of 3.1 if they are not raiding?

If SE is smart, they should at least wait until most servers have 1-3 groups killing a4s before giving out upgrade items in void ark

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Gear will not make a3s and a4s much more easier. Those fights are full of instant wipe mechanics and require more coordination than anything else. You could be an ilvl 300 raid group and the mechanics in a3s could still easily wipe your group.

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Those are everywhere in Coil and they didn't really do anything about most of those, particularly the ones in T5/9/13.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Those are everywhere in Coil and they didn't really do anything about most of those, particularly the ones in T5/9/13.

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Yeah, but they still gave it echo, and some 1-shot mechanics are nerfed in 2nd coil. So, things were nerfed, considerably. The big difference between then and now is that plenty of people were clearing all of coils. Savage alex is going to see a much lower clear rates and SE is going to have to respond some how. Alex N cannot sustain 90%ish of the player base for end game. We need more than just face roll content.

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Originally Posted by zosia

The old argument then was that raiders already had access to the gear and that CT was the "catch-up" patch. When 3.1 drops, there is going to be no catch up needed since alex savage will still be current content. I don't see hundreds and hundreds of statics getting clears by mid october, why would Yoshida choose to destroy those people's progression by showering everyone with 210 gear?

I think you are hoping for way too much if you want twines before most raiders can get them.

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I'm actually making my guess based off how they have previously done the upgrade system since 2.2/2.3.

In 2.2 both SCoB and a new level on tomestone gear (Soldiery/Gerolt's Masterworks) were added which could be upgraded with the Sands of Time/Oil of Time tokens. During 2.2 the only source of the upgrade tokens and the token needed to purchase the weathered weapons was SCoB. During 2.2 the max ilevel you could reach was i100 unless you did SCoB which would allow you to get to i110. In 2.3, Syrcus Tower and "The Hunt" were added, both of which you could get Sands of Time and Oils of Time, in addition to SCoB which was still the top level content.

In 2.4/2.5 this was (mostly) repeated for the Ironworks Gear: 2.4 FCoB was the only source of the tokens, 2.5 they where rewards from hunts and doing CT/WoD (no longer a straight drop, now a weekly quest reward for doing all 3 24 man raids).

You also seem to misunderstand what people mean by the term "catch up patch." Due to the fact that BCoB and CT were released in reverse of how they were initially planned to (CT was intended to be in 2.0 and BCoB was to be in 2.1, but something caused CT to be delayed making them release BCoB early) the devs decided to roll with it and started doing 2 patch +20 ilevel cycles instead of each patch increasing ilevel by roughly 10. In this new 2 patch cycle system, even numbered patches (2.2/2.4) increase the max ilevel by 20 but only the hardcore raiders could reach that number, everyone else was limited to an increase of only 10 ilevels. Odd numbered patches allowed the general population to "catch up" to the raiders and be on an even footing when the next patch cycle started.

In 3.0, the raiding max is i210 and the general population max ilevel is i200. In 3.1, the raiding max will stay i210 and the general population max will increase to i210. They are doing this so that they can plan 3.2 content for an ilevel of 210 instead of having a 10 ilevel gap between raiders and the general population.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I'm actually making my guess based off how they have previously done the upgrade system since 2.2/2.3.

In 2.2 both SCoB and a new level on tomestone gear (Soldiery/Gerolt's Masterworks) were added which could be upgraded with the Sands of Time/Oil of Time tokens. During 2.2 the only source of the upgrade tokens and the token needed to purchase the weathered weapons was SCoB. During 2.2 the max ilevel you could reach was i100 unless you did SCoB which would allow you to get to i110. In 2.3, Syrcus Tower and "The Hunt" were added, both of which you could get Sands of Time and Oils of Time, in addition to SCoB which was still the top level content.

In 2.4/2.5 this was (mostly) repeated for the Ironworks Gear: 2.4 FCoB was the only source of the tokens, 2.5 they where rewards from hunts and doing CT/WoD (no longer a straight drop, now a weekly quest reward for doing all 3 24 man raids).

You also seem to misunderstand what people mean by the term "catch up patch." Due to the fact that BCoB and CT were released in reverse of how they were initially planned to (CT was intended to be in 2.0 and BCoB was to be in 2.1, but something caused CT to be delayed making them release BCoB early) the devs decided to roll with it and started doing 2 patch +20 ilevel cycles instead of each patch increasing ilevel by roughly 10. In this new 2 patch cycle system, even numbered patches (2.2/2.4) increase the max ilevel by 20 but only the hardcore raiders could reach that number, everyone else was limited to an increase of only 10 ilevels. Odd numbered patches allowed the general population to "catch up" to the raiders and be on an even footing when the next patch cycle started.

In 3.0, the raiding max is i210 and the general population max ilevel is i200. In 3.1, the raiding max will stay i210 and the general population max will increase to i210. They are doing this so that they can plan 3.2 content for an ilevel of 210 instead of having a 10 ilevel gap between raiders and the general population.

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Why would they bring the general population to ilvl210 when a fraction, less than 1%, of the player base will be ilvl210 by the time they release 3.1? Raiders who worked very hard to even get 206, 207, or 208 won't even get the time to appreciate 209 or 210 before its the status quo. You don't see an intrinsic problem with that? It was fine in ARR, raiders would be decked out in raid gear and upgraded items when the catch up patch dropped. In this case, people will be lucky to get a full savage clear before 3.1.

It would not kill the general population to wait one more month after 3.1 for Void ark to get the upgrade items. There is literally zero reasons a player needs to be ilvl210 now or after 3.1, including raiders.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Why would they bring the general population to ilvl210

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Because, they have done it before and will continue their way.

At release, the tome gear was out of the box max iLvl. The need for upgrading gear got introduced with SCoB first.

If you're doing Savage for the gear then you're deluding yourself a bit, tbh.

Anyway, there's no real "reason" to nerf it, especially if they put the upgrade items in Void Ark at whatever point. Gear itself should sort it out, maybe further down the line they'll add echo but I doubt they'll change anything mechnically. More DPS alone makes fights like A1S, A2S, and A4S extremely easier (A3S is a bit of a special case, but more DPS still eases the last phase a lot). If they did add echo and you wanted to challenge it at it's original difficulty, you could just click off echo. As long as nerfs don't come, it honestly doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Why would they bring the general population to ilvl210 when a fraction, less than 1%, of the player base will be ilvl210 by the time they release 3.1?

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It gives people that farmed the 210 an advantage going in to the next content. I mean look at what happened, they brought the esoteric gear out before anyone could even get a full Alexander set. I'm quite certain that Ark is going to drop 210's or higher in addition to esoteric upgrade items.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I mean look at what happened, they brought the esoteric gear out before anyone could even get a full Alexander set.

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Don't know how long you play that game. But that tome gear with same final iLvl got always released together with the new raid tier.

Void Ark will drop i200.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Void Ark will drop i200.

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I doubt it, but I guess we'll see. It doesn't make much difference to me either way. Also, I started the game 4 months ago.

Savage shouldn't be nerfed, ever.

People will have better gears in the future updates, that will automatically makes these content easier.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Because, they have done it before and will continue their way.At release, the tome gear was out of the box max iLvl. The need for upgrading gear got introduced with SCoB first.

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Continue to do so? This situation we have right now is unlike any situation in ARR. Will the greed of the masses ever end? We have this abysmal raiding situation because we needed a story mode raid. Now at least half of the raiding population has been alienated by the difficulty, and the other half, people who will get a4s clears, might not even manage to do that before people "need" 210 gear to feel accomplished. Will you guys not be happy until there is no end game for anyone and we just play some slot machine mini game for your epics?

This is not even a point about gear, this a point about progression. There will be several groups, mine included, who will be coming close to getting our a4s kill in early to mid October. I want to get my kill before people just get handed gear and it ruins my sense of accomplishment. It's like hiking a mountain to only find the last mile was a ride up an escalator.

Meh, doesn't matter. SE is shooting themselves in the foot.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...a_of_faceroll/

Check for yourself. Plenty of people are unhappy about the raiding scene. releasing twines in hunts before most raiders can get an a3s kill is a great way to alienate an already dissatisfied segment of the player base. Raiders might be a minority, but we still pay money, just like the rest of you guys, and 95% of the game is already catered to the casual player, why not let raiders just have a little more time to get some kills fist?

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

It gives people that farmed the 210 an advantage going in to the next content. I mean look at what happened, they brought the esoteric gear out before anyone could even get a full Alexander set. I'm quite certain that Ark is going to drop 210's or higher in addition to esoteric upgrade items.

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void ark will indeed drop ilvl200 gear. It's been backwards like that since 2.1. All the 24 man raids in this game are like LFR in wow, except there is no harder version of them. They always drop loot that is 10 ilvls lower than the 8-man raid tier that came before it.

What's the point in nerfing it? So you get get stronger gear to do... what exactly?

I haven't done savage, and to be honest I have little to no interest in doing it. I did all of Coil for the story, for the cool looking gear, for the interesting new bosses. Alex savage has none of those things. Well, the bosses are slightly different, but not enough for me to care. Doing NM so many times pretty much killed my interest.

The ONLY thing you get out of savage is stronger gear and a feeling of accomplishment. If it's nerfed, the former is pointless and the latter is basically gone.

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Originally Posted by seida

What's the point in nerfing it? So you get get stronger gear to do... what exactly?

I haven't done savage, and to be honest I have little to no interest in doing it. I did all of Coil for the story, for the cool looking gear, for the interesting new bosses. Alex savage has none of those things. Well, the bosses are slightly different, but not enough for me to care. Doing NM so many times pretty much killed my interest.

The ONLY thing you get out of savage is stronger gear and a feeling of accomplishment. If it's nerfed, the former is pointless and the latter is basically gone.

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3s and a4s are much different than the normal versions. They feel like entirely different fights in many of the phases. You should check it out, the fights can be really fun.

Woulndt make sense to nerf savage if there already a nerfed version call Alex normal. So I'm gonna say never.

I keep getting a vibe from the 'hardcore raiders' in this thread that speaks of the egos involved. So far they seem convinced that there will be a nerf, discounting the fact that there's already a 'nerfed' Alexander in the game. Almost as if to say, "But Normal Alexander doesn't count." Why not? Because it doesn't drop dyeable gear? Doesn't drop upgrade materials? Most 'casuals' are fine with this, I know I am and I have no intention of running Savage Alexander. Ever. I don't need the headache of trying to appease 'hardcore raiders'. I get all I can stand of that attitude from the rare dungeon malcontent. You can keep your Savage, Normal is enough for me. Most 'casuals' aren't in it for the gear, they are in it for fun and story.

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Originally Posted by zosia

snip

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While I do get your point about it undermining the efforts of hardcore players, SE needs to release something that'll keep people playing and gear progression is that for most. Void Ark gear will take 4-5 weeks to get, so I'm fine with them delaying the upgrade materials by a month. I have a feeling that you wouldn't be happy if they did that either though. I don't honestly care about ilvls or stats, just the ability to dye the gear, they can give us upgrade materials that just make it dyeable, or push it to ilvl 205 and I'd be fine with it still.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

While I do get your point about it undermining the efforts of hardcore players, SE needs to release something that'll keep people playing and gear progression is that for most. Void Ark gear will take 4-5 weeks to get, so I'm fine with them delaying the upgrade materials by a month. I have a feeling that you wouldn't be happy if they did that either though. I don't honestly care about ilvls or stats, just the ability to dye the gear, they can give us upgrade materials that just make it dyeable, or push it to ilvl 205 and I'd be fine with it still.

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I am fine with a month delay, more than happy with that sort of compromise. I will definitely have an a4s clear before halloween. I just want my kill before any "nerfs." At the end of the day, raiders really care about bragging rights with other raiders. I want to be able to keep up with my buddies in other statics, and we do, but we can only raid twice a week and not like five days a week that some of our friends do.

It's not that my static has players that are bad or unable to rise to the challenge, we just need more time since many on our team are also working full time jobs with families etc etc.

I hope it's not nerfed, savage isn't my current priority however it is still something I wish to do.

I wanted to try out jobs before I took to the challenge and pvp tbh is one of my main interests which was released at the same time.

Im now edging close to my second rank 50 gc and onces that done to savage i go, also orginally i wanted to be mch and geared towards that but after playing drk that's what I want to play and already have i190 gear plus esto weapon waiting for me when 60

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Originally Posted by adn

A 100% chance. It will either be nerfed directly by implementation of Echo mechanic; that failing, the inevitable ilvl220+ gear will make it easier.

If they do a direct nerf I wouldn't count on it until 3.2 when they release the next wing of Alex.

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outgearing is not a nerf

repeat after me, outgearing is not a nerf

it makes the content easier, but it does not nerf it.

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Originally Posted by OJ191

outgearing is not a nerf

repeat after me, outgearing is not a nerf

it makes the content easier, but it does not nerf it.

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Outgear is a nerf. Here is why. ilevel 210 best in game gear. Alex savage should be beat able. By almost everyone. Sadly that isn't the case.

Now ilevel 300 gear. You are so over powered because the gear doesn't even have Alex savage in mine. It's nerfing the content because you will be able to skip parts of fights.

Alex savage doesnt have any difficult mechanics so the echo will be more than sufficient a nerf to get people clears. they might patch Nisi in A4S though

Sigh... yes, overgearing is a nerf. Of the game, and to a startling extent players, in general. Everything becomes easier once you outstrip the iL requirements of said content. This has a very unfortunate side effect of making players... less attentive for lack of a nicer term. You can see this in Duty Normal Floor 1 runs every so often. Once the bosses are down to just a few percent people go into this mechanics-defying zerg mode under the mistaken belief that their overgeared strength will end the fight before the mechanics rear their klaxon-sounding heads. It never works, mind, but they still try. Then you have the 'too good for this dungeon' people trying to force speed-runs even if one of the vital party members isn't quite able to maintain a speed-run's pace, all cause their gear is through the roof for the dungeon's difficulty.

This is all beside the point, though. Alexander already has a 'nerfed' mode in Normal, there's really no need to nerf Savage just to appease the 'casuals' who, if they haven't run it yet, will never run it. The only people I can see really spearheading a call to nerf Savage are the 'hardcore raiders' who can't clear it for lack of trying to learn how.

I can see echo being put in, with SE history on raids.I personally expect some nerfs.
I know they call it savage, but in my eyes its not a true savage but more of a normal raid where as normal is "easy mode". Time will tell.

Nerf = Change the content itself.

Out gearing = Becoming stronger therefore clearing the content in its original form easier.

The difference is the content itself does not change and therefore is not nerfed as you have freedom to experience it at it's original difficulty by taking off your echo buff and reducing your gear to the iLvL that was available on the day of the contents release.

outgearing is not a nerf.

You can only call it a nerf when it's Alex Savage that is changed.
if you're calling outgearing a nerf, you might as well call getting good at Alex Savage a nerf.

SCOB's mechanics were nerfed. FC was given echo and outgeared. There's a massive difference.

What I think would need to happen is define Nerf.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nerf Doesn't really apply
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerf Does apply

Getting Gear beyond that of what is out when content was made would be covered in making something weaken or less dangerous.

Changing mechanics is a nerf
As much as Echo. And over gearing content. Anything that makes something easier is a nerf....


Garuda Hardmode was never changed. Yet people kill Hardmode in 2mins. Vs going around 2-3 times. It seems pretty weaken or less dangerous.

Reliance on semantics is a sign of weak arguments