It's Time To Wake up

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Yes it does. Being arrogant is saying something you cant make true. Otherwise you are simply saying a fact. Facts cant be arrogant, you know? Facts can be correct or incorrect, however.

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Fact: The Sky is blue

Arrogant Fact: I would have figured even someone with your level of intelligence would know the sky is blue.

Just clearin that up for ya!

I do agree with many points, except Quelling Strikes, lol so very clueless in that regard op.

The only major issue I have with this game is the god awful targeting - even if they just let us change how tab target cycles... why would I want to tab target something 100 yards to my left instead of the mob punching my face in? *Spoiler* I don't!

Can we add useless macro system to the list? Why even have them if we can't use them because they're detrimental to gameplay. The fix is just to let them queue, but SE hasn't done it. Is it intended or some bug they can't fix????

Everyone has their own wish list of what they want, and the problem is that one person's wishlist conflicts with another persons. For example, I want:

1. Official in-game DPS/HPS/Damage taken parser
2. Add-on Support
3. More graphically pleasing maps
4. Customized skill and trait acquisition/use
5. More 'fun' stats in armor (Paralyze protection, spell procs, mp/hp recovery/drain etc.)
6. More varied gear per ilvl tier (I'd say at least 10 options per tier, could have the same glamour but options for stats to choose from)
7. Allow more than 1 primary stat per job, similar to STR/VIT for tanks (this would be coupled with varied builds allowed with customized skills/traits)
8. Provide more specific information in the Character tab (How much does DET actually increase your damage/heals?)
9. Estimated damage numbers on our tooltips based on our current gear
10. Ability to gather while in a DoM/DoW set
11. Reasons for farming as a DoM/DoW - (mobs that drop gear, materials or etc that are actually useful)
12. Less positionals on skills, more positionals globally (i.e. This particular monster takes more damage from the back, this one takes more from the front. Mobs take more damage from the front when stunned/sleeping. etc.)
13. Better server side latency, or compute more locally - shouldn't have to wait a tick after applying Bio to use fester/bane, it's instant and should be instant.

I can't think of anything more, but I am sure I could given time. The main point is I know that many of you will disagree with this, and we can't please everyone.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

whats wrong with botd's proc effect? It adds fun to the balance of geirskogal and keeping the buff on. Personally, I love it.

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Two abilities that do the exact same thing is fun?

Could have done one single one, but have a potency bonus when doing it from one side or the other, whichever one procs. Stick an onscreen element that shows up showing which flank to attack from for the bonus. Win.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Two abilities that do the exact same thing is fun?

Could have done one single one, but have a potency bonus when doing it from one side or the other, whichever one procs. Stick an onscreen element that shows up showing which flank to attack from for the bonus. Win.

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Oh you mean wheeling thrust and fang and claw, not botd. Yes, I agree that they could have just made one that works for both flank and side.

(just to clarify im not trying to be an ass, the way you described it was off)

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

Oh you mean wheeling thrust and fang and claw, not botd. Yes, I agree that they could have just made one that works for both flank and side.

(just to clarify im not trying to be an ass, the way you described it was off)

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yeah, hadn't had coffee yet. Still before noon at that point. ><

i can't speak for skill delays, besides benediction the 1s cast time sucks even though it says instant.
but for the skill delays: timing
job distinction: im sorry, what? If you're a job chances are you should have the classes you can cross class skill with to the required level for the skills, or your skill set isn't optimal
gear: im sorry WHAT? gear not existing? i agree with the glamour part though they should allow cross class equip glamours
dps parser: i agree we need one

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Originally Posted by Colorful

The only things I agree with here is the server delay and the lack of an official parser. I haven't found skill bloat to be an issue as of yet outside of PvP, but if they add more skills in the expansion it's definitely going to be one. They're going to have to make them entirely passive, or replace current skills with new ones (if they add a fourth mudra sign for Ninjas I will sudoku).

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You mean sepuku XD

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Everyone has their own wish list of what they want, and the problem is that one person's wishlist conflicts with another persons.

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This.

I, for one, only kind of agree on half of that list, and the rest range from "No" to "How would that even work?"

I find this game a lot of fun to play. However, there is also a lot about it I don't like. Quests are a chore of fetch and kill quests, with almost no variety or story behind them. I hate that simple things like dyeable AF gear are locked behind ridiculous requirements like high level alchemy items or end game raid stuff that only a few people will probably even see. I feel hunts are a cluster****.

In the end, it comes down to whether or not I enjoy the game enough to overlook its shortcomings. For now, yes. In a few months time, when other games are occupying my time more, like Fallout 4, we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

The server delay is even worse as EU player since you also have 180~200 ping on top of that. It's the only real reason why I barely do any content that requires combat in this game.

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I'm well aware as to how bad it can get, about 200-250 ping (varies wildly, annoying spikes where I can't do anything and playing as a Ninja...) from Australia to Japan. Odd thing is 200 ping is perfectly fine for WoW and its incredibly fast GCD, but FFXIV? Nope. =

oh look, the bi-weekly "WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" thread got merged with the hourly "I h8 dis game :C" thread.

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Originally Posted by 3Jane

You mean sepuku XD

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http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/commit-sudoku

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

oh look, the bi-weekly "WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" thread got merged with the hourly "I h8 dis game :C" thread.

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Oh look, the typical white knight comes to defend his perfect castle because someone dares to suggest its not really made of gold. Also passive aggressive trope.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Oh look, the typical white knight comes to defend his perfect castle because someone dares to suggest its not really made of gold. Also passive aggressive trope.

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Typical blissfully unaware ironic passive aggressive trope? Or is that too specific to be a trope? Or is there not any passive to your aggression?

http://radiorepublic.ph/wp-content/u...-of-a-down.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Oh look, the typical white knight comes to defend his perfect castle because someone dares to suggest its not really made of gold. Also passive aggressive trope.

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Everyone that uses the term white knight should be ignored.
At least come up with an argument instead of insulting people.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Everyone that uses the term white knight should be ignored.
At least come up with an argument instead of insulting people.

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not to mention his insult made 0 sense because the person he quoted wasn't defending anything. Just point out "this thread again".

There seem to be an awful lot of people in this thread with no idea what skill bloat is...

On my MCH I have three flat damage % cooldowns: Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye. These three all do more or less the same thing and serve the same purpose. That means I am pressing three buttons (usually all at the same time) to do something that could easily be consolidated into one single button. That is skill bloat.

Rouse and Spur for SMNs is also skill bloat: two cooldowns that buff the pet, two cooldowns that do exactly the same thing and are almost always used together at the same time. Why not just combine the effects and give us one button to press?

Some jobs suffer from it far worse than others but skill bloat is a very real problem in this game. The real cause of it though seems to be the cross-class skill system in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

There seem to be an awful lot of people in this thread with no idea what skill bloat is...

On my MCH I have three flat damage % cooldowns: Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye. These three all do more or less the same thing and serve the same purpose. That means I am pressing three buttons (usually all at the same time) to do something that could easily be consolidated into one single button. That is skill bloat.

Rouse and Spur for SMNs is also skill bloat

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Rouse and Spur are two totally different skills lol (one is for scholar the other is for smn so they CANT be used together) One increases healing potency of your pet the other increases the magic damage. Im sure you can figure out which one goes with which.

On your mch you have BfB ( A lancer skill, Increases damage if cross class by 10% for drg 30%) Raging Strikes (Bard Skill that increases dmg by 20%) and Hawks Eye (Increases Dex 15% and guarantees all attacks land) How is that bloat? Its not. Give me more examples of bloat, I like shooting things down.

At least look at the abilities before you come guessing ;)

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

Even though there are the typical narsisitic replies of, " YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME" or variations thereof that do nothing to advance the conversation other than assert that the poster is a special snowflake, there are plenty of people that bring up good points and better examples.



This guy gets it. Having multiple flat damage increase skills, multiple direct damage long cd skills (Trick attack is the only one that stands out as a useful utility) is boring. I know people are gonna find one specific example where some skill has a chance to shine, but I am sure many more can think of 99+ other times that its just another redundant skill that takes focus from gameplay to the action bars to watch when abilities are coming off CD.

That is the problem, when looked at individually, they don't seem like a big deal, but when classes have loads of these, it draws attention to the action bars needlessly. This is where addons can remedy some of it to help watch when cds come up, or the developers can realize that this detracts from gameplay and redesign skills to combine with other redundant skills.

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There are 2 flat damage increase skills in the game -- Raging Strikes and bfb. Guess which classes have access to BOTH? Brd/Mch -- No other class has access to them both.

The melee's have access to internal release and bfb (two skills that do two different things) Sure they both increase damage in their own way but again, belong to two different jobs.


Also the fact that you say quelling strikes is useless or that nobody uses it just baffles me. Let a blm not use it during their burn ( on grouped trash or a boss, raid or dungeon) and watch them die.

Joints, you didn't shoot down squat. Stop being so damn arrogant and actually look at the content of what he's saying. All of those abilities do the exact same thing. Do more damage. There is nothing interesting about them. Ignoring Rouse and Spur or whatever that caster stuff is called, they all are just falt damage boosters. Hit a button do 10% more, hit a button do 20% more, hit a button do this much more. WHY? You could just as easily make it a 20% buff on a short CD to replicate having the 3 skills. Just average them all out, They all do the same shit. And don't try and be smug and be all "Oh look at Paladins Fast blade and savage blade, they jsut do damage" Weapon skills usually have combos associiated with them and other roe interesting effects that aren't simple things like take more and do more, do more, and do more via boost of different stat. It's boring boring boring.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Joints, you didn't shoot down squat. Stop being so damn arrogant and actually look at the content of what he's saying. All of those abilities do the exact same thing. Do more damage. There is nothing interesting about them. Ignoring Rouse and Spur or whatever that caster stuff is called, they all are just falt damage boosters. Hit a button do 10% more, hit a button do 20% more, hit a button do this much more. WHY? You could just as easily make it a 20% buff on a short CD to replicate having the 3 skills. Just average them all out, They all do the same shit. And don't try and be smug and be all "Oh look at Paladins Fast blade and savage blade, they jsut do damage" Weapon skills usually have combos associiated with them and other roe interesting effects that aren't simple things like take more and do more, do more, and do more via boost of different stat. It's boring boring boring.

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Only one class has access to all three. So please explain how we have "OMG SO MUCH BLOAT".

I'm not being arrogant, I looked at the content of what he said, and I disagree. If "do more damage" is the deciding factor of what is bloat or not then we are in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

Even though there are the typical narsisitic replies of, " YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME" or variations thereof that do nothing to advance the conversation other than assert that the poster is a special snowflake, there are plenty of people that bring up good points and better examples.

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Waiting to read at least one good example of bloat, still haven't. You want bloat? go look at EQ's AA system after 14 years, THAT is bloat.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

Apparently someone can't be bothered to read the thread or other posts. There are plenty of skills for you to "shoot down." That being said,

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Tell me these skills, I'm waiting for your compelling argument.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

You literally describe 3 skills that increase damage, but with slightly different flavor. That is the definition of bloat, but if you can't see that there is no arguing with you, as you are just waiting your turn to spout off nonsense while you stroke your ego in the meantime.

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Yes 3 skills, and only ONE job has access to ALL 3 (that would use it as you wont see a blm use hawkeye) Please explain where all this bloat you talk about is at? Tell me the skills, give me your argument because right now this is your ONLY leg to stand on it only ONE job has will use all 3.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

That is the problem, when looked at individually, they don't seem like a big deal, but when classes have loads of these, it draws attention to the action bars needlessly. This is where addons can remedy some of it to help watch when cds come up, or the developers can realize that this detracts from gameplay and redesign skills to combine with other redundant skills.

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What classes have loads of this bloat.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

Rouse and Spur are two totally different skills lol (one is for scholar the other is for smn so they CANT be used together) One increases healing potency of your pet the other increases the magic damage. Im sure you can figure out which one goes with which.

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My SMN can use both Rouse and Spur. Rouse is an Arcanist skill, not a SCH skill.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

My SMN can use both Rouse and Spur. Rouse is an Arcanist skill, not a SCH skill.

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I stand corrected

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

What classes have loads of this bloat.

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Oh, Now I get it, you don't have a single class leveled up past 50. Of course you don't see the problems that the new skills cause. So, please, stop licking your own boot and get some experience to bring into the conversation please. This wasn't as much an issue in 2.0, 3.0 and later it will be.

I hate having to bring up character levels, but its largely relevant to the conversation at hand. Please stop trying to ask for me to repeat myself, if you want examples, you can find those in the first page of the thread, and I bring up multiple examples of redundant skills that could/should be merged into others. This is all I have to say to you on this topic, it's not going anywhere as you aren't going to see reason.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

not to mention his insult made 0 sense because the person he quoted wasn't defending anything. Just point out "this thread again".

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Because opening the forum, seeing the thread title, and then thinking "oh this thread again" is different than doing all of the above followed by posting an "oh this thread again" comment, which implies he wants to share his annoyance by annoying other people.

Wow, these forums are nerd rage heaven.. Door is that way >>>>>>>>> Do have a pleasant day :) *hugs* You needed that, you know you did! <3

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Originally Posted by Alberel

On my MCH I have three flat damage % cooldowns: Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye. These three all do more or less the same thing and serve the same purpose. That means I am pressing three buttons (usually all at the same time) to do something that could easily be consolidated into one single button.

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Blood for blood is not entirely the same as raging strikes because BfB increases the damage you take as well as dish out, using this at the proper times in incredibly important because if you use it at the wrong time you die. So no its not really the same as the other "press buttons, gain damage" skills.

you cant really merge Bfb with any other skill because of that

and honestly i really don't see where you are coming from , i played GW2 before i ever played FF14 and honestly the fact that GW2 had like what, 10 things to use..like at all, at any given time was very boring, battles were just not really fun in that game

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Job distinction. The class system was a nice throwback to 1.0, but now its just a meaningless restriction to new players. Wanna make a physical DPS? You HAVE to level lancer to 34. Caster DPS? LEVEL A RANGER/BARD. At least tanks only have to level other tanks and/or just monk to level 12 and be done. What does this yield? 3-5 mandatory abilities to play your class well. Invigorate, Swiftcast, Protect, Quelling Strikes(lol like people use this), Blood for Blood for a minor dps CD, Raging Strikes... It's not a choice when you are only given at most 5 skills that are possibly useful (warriors actual have to choose from 6 but that's pretty minor ultimatley).

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This. At least put the mandatory cross class skills at low lvl, not at lv 25+++. :(

If you wanted to play GW2 then why did you buy FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Everyone has their own wish list of what they want, and the problem is that one person's wishlist conflicts with another persons. For example, I want:.

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You bring some interesting points, especially the "more fun stats" as it stands out I feel like the system is pretty barebones, there's no point on using different gear other than what's best in slot, because there's no purpose, there's only one optimal rotation, only one combination of them is the best. It's not like you can ever try a different build for any job, it'll always be the same.

The server issues as painful, especially when dealing with both SMN/SCH pets ignoring your commands.

There's basically no variation of gameplay, one of the heavy atraction of the game was the Armory system, I'm currently maining summoner, why would I level up monk? which was my primary on 2.0, I'm not gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna bring Monk tonight to savage, because the system is so restrictive as it stands right now that you are pretty much locked of doing any relevant content outside of what you already started, so in the end, it's pretty much like I went to WoW, and created a new character from scratch skipping the story, there's basically no purpose other than novelty to level and play other classes.

One of my hopes of Heavensward was that they would revamp the gear system because it's incredibly simplistic as it stands right now, other than staring at the cool skins and awesome gear designs, but from a practical point of view the gear is boring as hell, and as long as they keep this ilvl system the gear other than for skins is always going to be boring.

I like the game, I'm not a hardcore player but I do raid, if it wasn't for my current static I don't see myself playing FFXIV, the moment my static breaks is probably my last day in FFXIV.

I often find myself on my freetime logged in and thinking, I wish there was something to do, what is there to do besides waiting for raid times, capping tomes, crafting food/consumables for raids.. Oh right, PvP, if only it wasn't utterly broken, ive played other MMO's before and PvP is the time killer but it's just not working, the 3 factions thing are no bueno.

I have been playing since early 1.0 then retired and ever since 2.0, and now 3.0, and I can't help to feel that this game has an incredible potential but it's afraid to try different things which is bizarre considering the huge variety of content type FFXI had, and I'm not talking currently, I speak of core or first expansion. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I'm pretty sure the update path is going to be the same as 2.0, Raid, story, 2 new dungeons (since it was already confirmed), mind numbing relic grind of old content > 24 man raid, new primal, 2 new dungeons, story > 2 new dungeons, 8 man raid, primal, story > 24 man dungeon, relic grind, story, primal, possible PvP updates likely to rank and new gear. I seriously wish and hope I'm proven wrong.

And before anyone else brings the usual arguments when someone brings up this kind of topics:
Have you leveled all your classes to 60? - I'm not interested in leveling all the classes to 60, when it's absolutely pointless.
Have you beaten Alex Savage? No, but this brings the huge issue that what am I supposed to do on my free time till my raiding group gathers.
Have you leveled all your crafts to 60? Not all of them.

revamping the gear system to include a variety of stats is pointless becuase it'll create another problem armoury bloat.
I think the main problem is there isn't enough variety of content and mini games.
There has to be some form of character progression post level cap to keep players busy.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Stats: totally agree here. While you usually want BiS, if you don't do endgame content you're pretty much good with the highest level item around. I wish that the customized stats weren't just a crafting specialty and I hoped that I could customize some stats like I wanted, because I have so much parry but it's completely worthless that I can't do anything but just to keep it (and even the eso axe has parry!).
And I wish indeed that the stats could give us some sort of output: I have 1936 defense but how much damage reduction is it? How much parry% is 573?! How much % id 673 accuracy? I shouldn't go to a site to translate those stats, just saying.

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This. Why don't we have something like this?! (That's not all, you have even additional mouseover-information in D3, too.)

And in FF14..It's just hilarious.. .there are entries for "Attack magic potency" and "Attack power" on the character chart.. and they are literally the same values as the according main stat.

Wow, so with 1000 intelligence I have an "Attack magic potency" of... 1000. Thanks for the information, really thank you very much, I don't know what to do without this information. :rolleyes:

Time to wake up? In that case why did you accompany your call to wake with a manifesto so sleep inducing that I feel it has helped me cope better with insomnia?

Sorry, but I disagree with your post and views, well, in so far as I could stay awake enough to read them.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You must not have played many mmo's. FFXI, for instance, had a zillion more skills than XIV, and it was played on consoles. Most other MMO's, aside from guild wars, have more than 10 skills you use regularly.

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The jobs in XI that had a zillion skills were still boiled down to 4 or 5 abilities. For the million songs BRDs had, for example, the only ones that mattered ended up being March, Ballad, Madrigal once in a blue moon and Carnage Elegy when the planets aligned. Anyone focused on nuking pretty much uses their strongest element (Thunder or Blizzard, depending on how you merited).

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

This. Why don't we have something like this?! (That's not all, you have even additional mouseover-information in D3, too.)

And in FF14..It's just hilarious.. .there are entries for "Attack magic potency" and "Attack power" on the character chart.. and they are literally the same values as the according main stat.

Wow, so with 1000 intelligence I have an "Attack magic potency" of... 1000. Thanks for the information, really thank you very much, I don't know what to do without this information. :rolleyes:

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This was brought up back in beta, and the developers were pretty much saying "yeah, it's better if you don't know the percentages based off of value". On some level I think they don't want theorycrafters to accurately derive stuff (the way WoW theorycrafters could tell you how much defense rating you needed as a tank to become uncritable) to retain some semblance of control over the game. Hiding the effects of stats also makes subtle changes and nerfs to things much less noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

Skill bloat is one, one that will have to be addressed next expansion at the latest.

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Agreed. I wasn't expecting them to add 5 abilities over the HW job questlines. I figured we'd get two, one at 55 and then one at 60 with a bunch of story stuff in between.

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Job distinction. The class system was a nice throwback to 1.0, but now its just a meaningless restriction to new players. Wanna make a physical DPS? You HAVE to level lancer to 34. Caster DPS? LEVEL A RANGER/BARD. At least tanks only have to level other tanks and/or just monk to level 12 and be done. What does this yield? 3-5 mandatory abilities to play your class well. Invigorate, Swiftcast, Protect, Quelling Strikes(lol like people use this), Blood for Blood for a minor dps CD, Raging Strikes... It's not a choice when you are only given at most 5 skills that are possibly useful (warriors actual have to choose from 6 but that's pretty minor ultimatley).

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Problem is that resolving this involves changing most classes and also their place in the storyline. Entry into your chosen city state does push you towards the local guilds. It would take a WoW Cataclysm-style revamp of Eorzea to pull this off (the gladiator's guild could be absorbed by the Sultansworn as a training academy for prospective members, for example).

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DPS. I have to point it out, if you are going to tune savage fights to the point that you need to be performing the best you can, you have to have a way to know you are doing good damage, and you cannot do this without a third party program. Otherwise the bard, warrior, or paladin that is only performing at 40% of their damage potential just makes the group feel like they are under performing without knowing what exactly is wrong. All this does is make those that are pulling their weight get disheartened since OBVIOUSLY there is something that they as a dragoon, monk, and/or blackmage are doing wrong, since the bard is hitting the right songs.

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I'd probably focus on the fact that raid clears were hinging on DPS from non-DPS jobs to skip on the time it would normally take to gear DPS jobs to meet those DPS checks. That's why some have convinced themselves all tanks should drop their tanking stance and use DPS accessories instead of playing like tanks.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

Quelling Strikes(lol like people use this), Blood for Blood for a minor dps CD

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what.... I don't... what... MINOR?!?!

http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This was brought up back in beta, and the developers were pretty much saying "yeah, it's better if you don't know the percentages based off of value". On some level I think they don't want theorycrafters to accurately derive stuff (the way WoW theorycrafters could tell you how much defense rating you needed as a tank to become uncritable) to retain some semblance of control over the game. Hiding the effects of stats also makes subtle changes and nerfs to things much less noticeable.

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So the devs prefers to make us play the "My X is bigger than your X" game huh?

And it's hard to hide the effects of stats when the nerfs are noticeable at first glance (str and dex not affecting parry/block dmg reduction and chance for example) and when the exact % IS required for certain content: accuracy needs a cap for raiding and without knowing what percentage it is, people will just pretend that the higher the better when you're already overcapped and overcapping is very often done, because you don't know the exact amount of accuracy required!. The game has no crit immunity so that's also out of the way, and parry is the most useless tanking stat ever since it's extremely low even with 600 parry, which should be about 4 to 5% (and no I didn't check the exact amount. That's the game's job, not mine). Determination maybe has a smal amount of % that it increases but still not sure why it shouldn't be there.

So in my opinion, there's no real need to hide the stats % or effects: if anything what this situation do is just make people focus on one stat and make it "bigger" and forget about the rest. But I think they're just lazy about it.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

Oh, Now I get it, you don't have a single class leveled up past 50. Of course you don't see the problems that the new skills cause. So, please, stop licking your own boot and get some experience to bring into the conversation please. This wasn't as much an issue in 2.0, 3.0 and later it will be.

I hate having to bring up character levels, but its largely relevant to the conversation at hand. Please stop trying to ask for me to repeat myself, if you want examples, you can find those in the first page of the thread, and I bring up multiple examples of redundant skills that could/should be merged into others. This is all I have to say to you on this topic, it's not going anywhere as you aren't going to see reason.

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The fact that you think that this might be my only account is pretty amusing. Do you really think that I would be in here talking about endgame "bloat" due to newly gained skills at 60 and not have a single battle class to max level? Interesting.

What is even more funny is that even though Ive asked multiple times where all this "bloat" is coming from, you still fail to actually give me a single compelling reason for me to believe you. Not that you care and not that you can. Point is all these skills you are talking about and that anyone keeps talking about are ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 2.0 skills (minus the dk ones you mentioned) How many new "bloat" skills did they add in 3.0? Hell list the bloat skills in 2.0, im STILL waiting for you to give me that.

the only ones you list are BfB, Raging Strikes, and Hawk Eye -- TWO jobs have access to all 3 of those. Only 2, any other job has access to 1.

oh and quelling strikes but we wont go there because reasons.