Are we really getting a Dps parsing dummy?

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I disagree with this. As has been mentioned here before, an official parser of any kind will only vindicate the already present jerknozzles, and you'll see party finders demanding proof of some arbitrary DPS rating. Now, someone will say "It's their party, and they can build it however they want". Yeah, I guess. Those people are still jerks to begin with, and the last thing this game needs is another outlet for them to practice their jerkism.

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Expecting people to know their job well enough isn't being a jerk. I wouldn't expect anyone to do top DPS and always have food/potions, but if you're doing <1000 dps on a dummy as a melee you probably don't know your job well enough to pull your own weight.

To those complaining about an official DPS parser, use this as an opportunity to practice your rotation and optimize your DPS. This is a good thing for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Out of curiousity, do you find it worse to kick someone on day one of content for not playing their class well enough to clear the content OR to have people play so horribly bad that after 2 months they are still pulling numbers like they were 80 ilvls lower and 10 regular levels lower?

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Kicking someone on day one of content for not playing their class well enough to clear the content is basically like going to a new job and being let go day one because you may not have yet understood everything that must be done in order to fulfill the workday. This damages the overall health of the community and furthers the glaring aspect of segregation that plagues this game.


As a Bard when they added WM to our skills I didn't know how to really use it well because the game didn't offer me any training on it. I was pulling low numbers because of it, it wasn't until I reached out to a friend who was a bit more further into the story and more in tune with the class that I was able to see how to use it right. A parser wouldn't have done anything in this situation because like I pointed out they don't truly encourage grown.

So kicking someone because they're new and not as experienced at content as you or I and kicking someone who may truly not have a full conceptual grasp of his or her skills is honestly about the same.

This game honestly needs to support add ons OR Square Enix needs to provide us with a way to measure our dps (and that of other party members).

We can't have DPS checks without anyway to figure out whats wrong with peoples dps. I just stopped playing today after I got so frustrated from wiping on Bismarck hard mode for 2 hours. Many of those wipes were due to low party dps. I know my rotation and everything but how can we make sure everyone else is doing their job without a way to check dps?

I would rather have a way to check dps than /pray to rng gods that I get grouped with people who know what they are doing.

It's mindboggling the arguments people give to not have a public parser. On the first page I even read someone saying fights should be so that you can chat during an encounter, wth?

You can always choose who play with. Part of an MMO is to find like-minded people. If you see the DPS some people put out, it does more harm to the group not exposing them. When you play DPS, you should be judged by your DPS just like how the other two roles get judged.

We won't see one until SE drops PS3's support though. A PS3 would not be able to handle that big of an addition to the UI, but what do you expect from a 2006 released console.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

Honestly its probably more PS3 limitations. Its a lot easier to free up UI memory space when youre in 'dummy training mode' rather than just adding the UI pop-up on top of whats already there in a dungeon/raid. This should suffice though... its not real world training but itll still allow us to practice and tweak rotations and compare with other classes. Once you have that then applying it to a real fight is really just "dummy rotation" + avoid getting hit.

Who knows. Maybe theyll get innovative and throw in an actual script for the dummy to toss out low damage AoE patterns to avoid.

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I don't really care they add one or not, but if they did do post fight results I'd assume it wouldn't be much different or difficult as the results they tally for every individual participant in pvp

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

As a Bard when they added WM to our skills I didn't know how to really use it well because the game didn't offer me any training on it. I was pulling low numbers because of it, it wasn't until I reached out to a friend who was a bit more further into the story and more in tune with the class that I was able to see how to use it right. A parser wouldn't have done anything in this situation because like I pointed out they don't truly encourage grown.

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A parser would help you. You could test trial and error on alternate methods to see how to improve and watch your numbers change. You could even figure it out in 1 dungeon run if you were really trying. You could see how your numbers compare with other bards that you get partnered up with and ask 'hey, how are you pulling those numbers, advice please?'

You didn't answer my question though. I will for funsies.

It is far worse to have a whole bunch of subpar dps than be kicked from content once on opening day. If I was kicked 2 months ago, I would be well over it by now. However, every single day on roulette I am paired with subpar DPS that makes the run go slower. Further, I no longer play my SCH or PLD (two secondaries which I used to love playing), because I am always paired with horrible DPS. At least on my SMN, I can be certain that 50% of the DPS will be acceptable. The 12 minute DPS queue is now less than the added time for being paired with horrible DPS on my PLD/SCH.

I think a parsing dummy would help for sure. People need to know if they are at the level where they can do certain content or if they need to improve. If they just added a parsing dummy then I don't see what could go wrong. People can still claim they do whatever DPS not judge or judge based on as it stands right now.

I have noticed lots of people do run parsers. I've had people comment on me having good DPS and comm me while I'm on my ninja more than a few times. I'm on PS3 so I have no idea what they're seeing I just keep my gear maxed for my level and melded and run my rotation as solid as I can. On the reverse I've never seen anybody use a parser to berate or otherwise harass somebody for low DPS. The only times I've seen this were where somebody was doing something obviously wrong, like this BLM using only Ruin, and the person who commented on it didn't mention anything about a parser. I'm by no means high level yet though so maybe it becomes more common once you get up there.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Furthermore, they should be removing DD checks so people have time to type during combat.

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I'm all for this if they also remove everything that damages anyone.

Let's just turn our raids into 10 minute long dummy parses. Fun!

They're giving a dummy instead of a dedicated parser because
1. They are trying to keep the UI manageable. They simply don't have room to put the DPS parser anywhere on the current UI.
2. They do not want to turn this game into WoW 2.0 because WoW has been in decline for a while now.

Also, I'm advocating that they just throw the role out because its more trouble than its worth. You can't use it in role hybridization, the effectiveness of any given person is hidden within the sum of the group's total damage output, and players make ridiculous demands of DD due to ignorance of the specific job's stat and gear requirements, which are more complex than the tanks and healers. There isn't much point in arguing that DD X have internal release on his bar if the current raid set is almost entirely determination based, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I'm all for this if they also remove everything that damages anyone.

Let's just turn our raids into 10 minute long dummy parses. Fun!

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Early WoW didn't have DD checks. Funny thing is that game took off like a rocket. WoW right now has DD checks and isn't doing all that well. Not that the correlation implies anything other than DD checks are irrelevant to the game being enjoyable.

DD checks are needed though otherwise people will just run harder content with tanks and healers only.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

DD checks are needed though otherwise people will just run harder content with tanks and healers only.

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Actually, DD is still useful in such cases because a group doesn't want to cycle too many times through the boss mechanics. The more prolonged a fight, the higher the chance of a wipe at the hands of instant death mechanics or mechanics that are practically instant death. If a group of people finish it with tanks and healers only, power to them. It means there would be more than one way to cook an egg, which can only make the game richer, not poorer.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Actually, DD is still useful in such cases because a group doesn't want to cycle too many times through the boss mechanics. The more prolonged a fight, the higher the chance of a wipe at the hands of instant death mechanics or mechanics that are practically instant death. If a group of people finish it with tanks and healers only, power to them. It means there would be more than one way to cook an egg, which can only make the game richer, not poorer.

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you can totally cheese a fight with 6 heals/2 tanks though if there are no dps checks. The fight will go on longer, which means more mechanics, but it's not like those mechanics will be just slightly easier, they'll be completely trivialized. Especially since you have 6 resses and no time limit. Almost everyone could die and you could easily recover. Every single fight in the game would just become a battle of attrition. It would absolutely not make the game richer. It would make it silly.

Edit: Also, @ you earlier post, vanilla WoW totally had dps checks. Less of them than now, but they were absolutely there.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

you can totally cheese a fight with 6 heals/2 tanks though if there are no dps checks. The fight will go on longer, which means more mechanics, but it's not like those mechanics will be just slightly easier, they'll be completely trivialized. Especially since you have 6 resses and no time limit. Almost everyone could die and you could easily recover. Every single fight in the game would just become a battle of attrition. It would absolutely not make the game richer. It would make it silly.

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That's why res sickness exists. If they did as much raising as you are suggesting, they'd probably be killed during a major phase transition. I played WoW in its early days and the raiding worked without the strong DD checks.

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Originally Posted by Sollats

Are you suggesting we allow dps to slack off and leave the hard content stuff to tanks and healers? Because from what I'm understanding, you don't want to put the effort into learning how to deal with the changes that the game puts forward to balance issues that were placed in older content.

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You have a very active imagination.

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Originally Posted by Sollats

I don't understand what the point your trying to make because dps checks are there so that EVERYONE has to put forward the effort and drive that their job can reach. Otherwise your allowing two or three people to carry people who barely put effort and expect to be given their role simply because they bring some support to a party.

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Bringing unique utility to the party is precisely what each role (or even better, each class) should be doing. Damage dealing isn't a good role because it doesn't bring anything to the group that it doesn't already have. We'd be better off with a role that can move enemies and allies around or effect the battlefield in some way. DD has always been a problem area even for WoW which invented the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

That's why res sickness exists. If they did as much raising as you are suggesting, they'd probably be killed during a major phase transition. I played WoW in its early days and the raiding worked without the strong DD checks.

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Are you suggesting we allow dps to slack off and leave the hard content stuff to tanks and healers? Because from what I'm understanding, you don't want to put the effort into learning how to deal with the changes that the game puts forward to balance issues that were placed in older content.

I don't understand what the point your trying to make because dps checks are there so that EVERYONE has to put forward the effort and drive that their job can reach. Otherwise your allowing two or three people to carry people who barely put effort and expect to be given their role simply because they bring some support to a party.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Bringing unique utility to the party is precisely what each role (or even better, each class) should be doing. Damage dealing isn't a good role because it doesn't bring anything to the group that it doesn't already have.

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I believe you have no idea what any of the jobs in this game does and you have no idea what you are talking about. I could go on and on about what each job brings to the table into a party let alone the stat buff the party gets for having a different job in the party. I honestly after what you just said, now believe you have no idea what dps in this game actually does for a party.

Seriously go read what each job brings to a party right now, not only do they push to kill stuff faster, they all bring something else to the table and GOOD players use those utilities.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

A parser would help you. You could test trial and error on alternate methods to see how to improve and watch your numbers change. You could even figure it out in 1 dungeon run if you were really trying. You could see how your numbers compare with other bards that you get partnered up with and ask 'hey, how are you pulling those numbers, advice please?'

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I can test trial and error without parsing. I learn to do that by playing the game, I'll admit some people flat out refuse to do anything then a 1-2-3 chain and slow people down, but again parsing wouldn't help if the player doesn't care. But parsing doesn't tell you when to use everything, it doesn't pop up on the screen and tell you to activate every buff you have. With WM for example it's entirely situational, or it was before they changed it a bit, but a parser wouldn't tell me to use the skill on on movement heavy fights. I have to learn to maximize myself for the situation, parsing just shows my damage, not how to boost it on the fly like in a boss for a first time run. All the parser does is show you a number, it's essentially a ruler, a tool to measure numbers, but it doesn't do anything else, it doesn't go get you the hammer, paint and the nails to complete your project.

Furthermore even if they did implement one just because players can hit a required mark, doesn't mean raiding or the general feel of the game will become better, mechanics and familiarity still pay huge parts in the game. Players will still continue to kick out players for being new, segregate the community and if parsing were implemented ask for some obscured way to show proof. Imagine a ps4 player like myself having to show a pc player that I can hit that 5000 dps mark, it wouldn't work unless everyone could see, turning the game into nothing but a elitist community stagnating everyone's progression.

If dps checks and such are this much of a concern then maybe we as players should tell SE to actually implement proper training when new skills are unlocked and have training simulations of different types of combat situations so players can learn and understand things better and witness them in a environment that is designed to help them.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I can test trial and error without parsing.

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not as effectively

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

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I honestly don't understand how you cannot tell that parsing would assist you in improving yourself. You won't notice if doing "x" improves your DPS by 50 if your dps hovers around 1000. With a parser you would, then you'd work that into your rotation. Then you could try "y" which also improves your DPS by another 50, and again you wouldn't notice the difference without a parser. However, after those two things you'd be doing 10% more damage than before.

It's definitely up to debate. However, I'd rather play in this elitist community than the lazy community we currently play in. I'd also like to be able to complement people for great DPS in dungeons without the risk of being banned. I'd like to have an in-game parser so that PS4/3 users could have it and see how they are doing without having to ask a PC player. I'd like to be able to identify issues and address them rather than blindly failing DPS checks over and over again without any idea why.

I've personally played WoW, FFXIV, GW, GW2, and Tera. I wasn't able to parse in GW2 and it, by far, had the most elitist community. WoW has, conversely, the least elitist community that I've played with. Obviously everyone's experience will differ, but I've seen infinitely more elitist people here than WoW. I recently tried out WoW again and said "Hey, never been to this dungeon before" and it was an older one now. Everyone said "No problem, just follow along :)". I see a lot of elitism in FFXIV and not having a parser doesn't do anything to help. It's a figment of your imagination if you believe that elitism is not in this game due to it.

Anyway whatever, we don't agree. I sure hope they add a team-based parser and not something where you can only see your own dps or a special area to test in.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I honestly don't understand how you cannot tell that parsing would assist you in improving yourself. You won't notice if doing "x" improves your DPS by 50 if your dps hovers around 1000.

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It also might assist your account to a permaban. :'3

Banned people do 0 dps. ;)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Then you could try "y" which also improves your DPS by another 50, and again you wouldn't notice the difference without a parser. However, after those two things you'd be doing 10% more damage than before.

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You are wrong, the human mind can actually see things and do things you would not believe and can actually time out things and it does notice when you do things slower or faster.

A parser is quite an unfair advantage to have. You might as well be botting honestly. Do not admit to using such programs. Ok?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It also might assist your account to a permaban. :'3

Banned people do 0 dps. ;)

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I've literally never heard of anyone getting permabanned due to the use of a parser.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I've literally never heard of anyone getting permabanned due to the use of a parser.

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You can use the parser to literally see when monsters hit you and how much outgoing damage they can do to you and when they use their attacks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_banned_for/

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Early WoW didn't have DD checks. Funny thing is that game took off like a rocket. WoW right now has DD checks and isn't doing all that well. Not that the correlation implies anything other than DD checks are irrelevant to the game being enjoyable.

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Um, DPS checks in WoW have existed since Vanilla. Vaelestraz (albeit a light one), Patchwork in Vanilla Naxx... remember Brutalus in Sunwell with BC? That's still quite early.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You can use the parser to literally see when monsters hit you and how much outgoing damage they can do to you and when they use their attacks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_banned_for/

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In the highest upvoted comment it links to an interview where he states that publicy they have to state that it's not allowed, but as low as you remain hush hush about it, it's fine. That OP likely talked about it in the open, and probably was rude enough to get reported.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

In the highest upvoted comment it links to an interview where he states that publicy they have to state that it's not allowed, but as low as you remain hush hush about it, it's fine. That OP likely talked about it in the open, and probably was rude enough to get reported.

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Yeah... exploiting the game is fine as long as you can get away with it. I see. That is standard attitude in MMOs these days. However I always report people who say or parse logs at all. :'3

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yeah... exploiting the game is fine as long as you can get away with it. I see. That is standard attitude in MMOs these days. However I always report people who say or parse logs at all. :'3

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Exploiting the game? The parser doesn't tell you when an attack is coming or how to avoid it, the game does that for the most part actually. All it does is track damage, healing, etc. =l

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It also might assist your account to a permaban. :'3

Banned people do 0 dps. ;)

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Good for you if you believe in that fairytale where people get banned for using parsers. Let alone permabanned.

You probably also believe SE bans gil buyers..

Why would you hate being able to see if you are doing well or not in a fight. If you wishfully want to stay ignorant about how well you are doing in a fight then so be it but when you work with a group of people on end game raids like savage, you need to pull your weight.

Example, if you do okay dps and do your job just fine, but someone else same job does exceptional dps and does the job just fine, majority will take the one who can do the exceptional dps. because as long as you know how to pick up and learn mechanics for fights, you can always improve dps, but if you lack in both mechanics or dps, your going to be dropped for reasons.

Just like in real life jobs, if someone who works meh, okay, doing what they are supposed to do. The store isn't always clean but it looks okay, and then boss hires someone who does exceptional work, workplace always clean and does what they are supposed to without wasting time, who are they going to fire in this situation without exception?

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

To those complaining about an official DPS parser, use this as an opportunity to practice your rotation and optimize your DPS. This is a good thing for everyone.

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That's what I thought. And I personally think is a great idea as it is a PERSONAL parsing not a raid one. It will definitely help improve personal performance. It's like I mentioned before, a bit of a training mode for a fight game where I try to Excel your combos by adding more and put them into practice on a real target.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You can use the parser to literally see when monsters hit you and how much outgoing damage they can do to you and when they use their attacks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_banned_for/

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Because you totally can't get that information from cast bars and flying text or anything...

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You can use the parser to literally see when monsters hit you and how much outgoing damage they can do to you and when they use their attacks.

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You do realize the info is provided by the game, right?
Parsers just put the information in a more readable format.
http://i.imgur.com/5c0wIRE.jpg
^battle tab

I support the idea, and to further cater to my Allagan fetish, make it a Training Node! Someone had the idea of having it execute low damage aoes to simulate having to move for mechanics and that's good too.

All doomsaying aside, a parsing dummy is not a bad idea at all IF used responsibly, much like the other tools we already have that CAN be misused (vote kick, lootmaster, etc.), but would not by a mature adult player.

A parsing dummy is the best alternative to an actual parser that I can think of. It's there for your parsing pleasure yet it's not looming over everyone's head in instances like a diarrhetic bird. It's also completely optional, you don't even have to give it a glance if you don't want to. Hopefully it's inclusion will be enough for the jerks to do their flexing and posing and leave the rest of us to enjoy the game in peace. Doubtful, I know, but it's a hope.

If they do make a parsing dummy, I have one request:

Make it a Moogle dummy. It will feel so good!

In all seriousness though, as a PS4 user, if this is for real it would be great.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Early WoW didn't have DD checks. Funny thing is that game took off like a rocket. WoW right now has DD checks and isn't doing all that well. Not that the correlation implies anything other than DD checks are irrelevant to the game being enjoyable.

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How early are we taklking about here, because DPS checks were already in vanilla WoW. The earliest one I can think of was Vaelastrazs in Blackwing Lair and many of the bosses in Naxxramas had either hard or soft enrages. I wouldn't be surprised if every boss had one after The Burning Crusade hit.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yeah... exploiting the game is fine as long as you can get away with it. I see. That is standard attitude in MMOs these days. However I always report people who say or parse logs at all. :'3

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Are you the same guy who said that datamaning patches is what is allowing botting? Because your parser comparisons are about as good as that.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

not as effectively

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Well, if you're an idiot then yeah, you may need a dummy that's smarter than you to tell you what's happening.

But for those of us with functional eyes and functional brains that can process the images those eyes receive, yeah, we don't need a parser to know if we're doing things correctly.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

You do realize the info is provided by the game, right?
Parsers just put the information in a more readable format.

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That's as maybe, but they're still third party software that's still against the ToS. And here's hoping they stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Well, if you're an idiot then yeah, you may need a dummy that's smarter than you to tell you what's happening.

But for those of us with functional eyes and functional brains that can process the images those eyes receive, yeah, we don't need a parser to know if we're doing things correct.

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The thing is , you may THINK you doing it right but how are you certain for sure? Someone else might be doing the exact same thing as you but somehow they are pulling a much higher dps than you?

A clear example , There's a few videos in YouTube "teaching you" their rotations . And if you look in the comments section there's ALWAYS someone telling you how can you improve or do better. And it's not only 1 person is a lot of putting their input and advice.

That's when a parsing dummy comes in , if you can actually see the >damage< you might come up with something extra or adding extras to your rotations to increase your overall performance.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Well, if you're an idiot then yeah, you may need a dummy that's smarter than you to tell you what's happening.

But for those of us with functional eyes and functional brains that can process the images those eyes receive, yeah, we don't need a parser to know if we're doing things correctly.

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its always funny to me how the anti-parser crowd plays the "toxic elitist community" card but is always the first to spew condescending stuff like this lol

These threads about parsers are so dangerous, lol. Someone always gets banned for accidentaly admitting using one.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Honestly, if this is SE's response for a parser, then we can expect this game to get a lot more toxic. I'm not sure if I'll want to play that game.

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It's literally only on training dummies. Training dummies exist for the sole purpose of practicing, and having it show your damage dealt only accentuates that idea. Regardless of them doing this or not, anyone who's serious in this game will just go to 3rd party programs to achieve the same thing. This just gives console players the means to evaluate themselves.

Patch update on Friday night! Hopefully we might get some info!

The date has been set for the twenty-fourth installment of the Letter from the Producer LIVE! Scheduled to be held during the 14-hour anniversary broadcast, this will be the first half of a two-part special previewing what's to come in patch 3.1. Don't miss this chance to get the latest information out of Eorzea!
Date & Time
Friday, August 21, 2015 from 9:30 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. (PDT)

Themes
Patch 3.1 Preview
Yoshi-P will answer questions taken from the official forum while sharing details of the upcoming patch.