Cleric Stance in PvP

I have yet to try healing in Seal Rock but my group being scattered all over the map is what would annoy me the most I think. Plus there are LoS issues everywhere. You didn't really have this problem with the Ruins.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

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It's mostly in perspective of this topic. I'm not sure what you mean by "more rewarding gameplay" when healers are practically needed (and often in short supply). Things like ground effects not affecting people outside of your alliance isn't exclusive to seal rock, it's the same case in slaughter and secure.

It's honestly the same as PvE. If healing isn't fun for them, it isn't fun for them. It could also be the circumstance that PvP pits them in such as being focused down (which is, unfortunately the life of any healers in PvP) or their group being too spread (which is on the group itself, jsut like any other DPS that stands in bad stuff)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Okay, I see I must be very specific with you. Yes, I am aware that ground effects do not affect anyone outside of the party you are in within all pvp modes. I'm suggesting in pvp it could encourage people to play healing roles more if they did. Also, yes, healers are needed and often in short supply. My question is, why is that so? Is there a way to fix that? The same issue occurred some time ago with tanking roles. A lot of people did not wish to play tanks in dungeons and other content, so they set up incentives and also worked on the jobs themselves to encourage better gameplay balance.

Also, what I mean by rewarding gameplay, it means you actually feel like your role matters, or you are enjoying what you're playing. It would be cool if at the end it showed how many people you saved or raised or something like that. It does show how much hp you healed, but that doesn't really say much.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

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I'm personally not bored with playing a healer (I didn't see someone say they were bored with healing in this thread that I recall), it's more frustrating than anything. I do the things on your list, but that doesn't mean someone may not enjoy playing healing or find it boring or even love it as is. Everyone has their own opinions on these things. However, it is apparent that a lot of players are NOT playing healing roles in PVP, regardless of how they feel whilst playing it. And I think this is an issue that may need to be addressed.

Also, if you are truly 1v1 another person such as dps or tank, you would probably still come out on top as a healer, unless they use a limit break on you. And even then, if you have enough hp, you could outlive that as well. It just takes a really really really long time. lol

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

Also, what I mean by rewarding gameplay, it means you actually feel like your role matters, or you are enjoying what you're playing. It would be cool if at the end it showed how many people you saved or raised or something like that. It does show how much hp you healed, but that doesn't really say much.

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I don't know what else to say if you feel that the reward of keeping people alive (and thus, increasing the chance of winning) isn't enough. A of MMOs that I played with a PvP aspect track the exact same details (healing done, deaths, damage done, kills). The shortage of role is persistent and unfortunately is just the way it is it, not just in FL. FL doesn't enforce compositions which is why you'd see a shortage of healers, otherwise we'd have even shoddier queue times as we do now. Giving incentives like titles or mounts (in tank case) really does nothing to solve it, because in the end they'd ultimately just spam runs as that class, and drop it when it's all done (because that's what I did in regards with the bear and lion mounts, and eventually the ADS mount).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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I'm not necessarily saying they should add mounts or something as incentives, because I personally don't care about that. Like I said before, I care about balanced gameplay in all aspects of combat in this game. I currently don't feel balance, and I think a lot of other people that like playing healing roles, feel this way too.

"I don't know what else to say if you feel that the reward of keeping people alive isn't enough." So healers should only heal. Dps should only dps. Tanks should only tank. And everyone should be happy with this? With all the buttons we have to push, you'd think there would be more elaborate and thought out ideas behind the jobs we play.

Honestly, people still do stupid things and get themselves killed, or benediction goes off but somehow the player still dies you are trying to save. And even if you save your whole party at some point they will still only be looking at how many people they killed and pay you no mind because you were just "keeping people alive" and just essentially doing your job. And if you don't act as some players' own personal healer, they will get upset and blame you for the party failing or them dying, even though you were the only one to come as a healer in the first place.

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent. My point is, I think making healing roles more enjoyable in some manner in PVP would help people play those roles more frequently. It's exhausting and frustrating right now, even when I try to do everything right, and obviously others feel this way too because there is hardly any healers turning up in the duty finder parties. I guess I'm just spinning my wheels here, just like in the game. Maybe the healer job is just becoming that... a job. (Probably in the role of babysitting if you aren't playing with friends... lol)

Anyway, goodbye thread.

Well, goodbye, but for the record, I still think you're wrong :/

Even if the reward argument is not that important, i completely agree with your statement of our job in pvp Eldaena.

It's really tiring (mentaly) and absolutely not funny when your team is completely dispatched on this really large map. Some of them want to play the safety by guarding easy nodes to finish 2nd in classment. Some others absolutely want to try to bring the team to the first place and attack ennemies, some are completely lost in the map or just try to find some easy kills.
And you... can't buff or heal your allies with aoe, can't take the initiative to steal a node, you just spam click those green bars on your screen to try to heal someone in reach. You think that what is doing this guy right know is completely useless for the team but you heal him anyway since you don't have anything else to do.
hmmm well.... i will just tag for wolfs' den next time. Maybe i could get one match if i wait for 3h. It would still be much funnier than those 48 players pvp matches.
Or simply let the pvp world to the wintraders group. Now there are public linkshells or Pf for that... why to bother to talk about skill seriously.

Hi I play a healer in pvp but I don't enjoy healing (I find it boring), I think damage is more fun. So can we get back cleric stance? I don't want to roll a blm or a smn because while they do the same thing I want my sch/whm/ast to do, they don't have good heals which I find boring in pvp.

That's pretty much the message I see when people ask for cleric stance in pvp. It would be better if you asked for increased range on heals or something heal related.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

...I'm personally not bored with playing a healer (I didn't see someone say they were bored with healing in this thread that I recall), ...

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From the OP first post:

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

... Healing in frontline is already quit boring since your buff and aoe heal doesn't affect your allies but just your teamates...

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

...Also, if you are truly 1v1 another person such as dps or tank, you would probably still come out on top as a healer, ...

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The game is not balanced nor designed with 1v1 in mind. I was annoyed at the cleric stance nerf at first , but i came around to understand that me killing someone 1v1 is meaningless over me keeping my own and the other 2 parties alive. I dont try to kill people. I throw monkey wrenches. Dont try to solo a dps or tank, bait him to your party! This is a team game mode. Your K/D is meaningless. If you are looking for 1v1, you're looking in the wrong place and will be eternally dissapointed.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

... My point is, I think making healing roles more enjoyable in some manner in PVP would help people play those roles more frequently....

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How exactly? You only suggested that you should do more damage.... how exactly is that making healers more enjoyable ? Are you just unhappy that healers are not also blms ? Are you unhappy about your fridge being unable to cook food as well ? I did a match with 581k total healing last night. I took pride in it because that number shows how i have been constantly healing the whole alliance. I brought a million times more value to my team rather than if i had killed people or did like 50-100k dmg.

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you just spam click those green bars on your screen to try to heal someone in reach

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If you're proud of that just do pve. It will suit you well.

As i told already, in other games healers are more polyvalent in pvp and it doesn't look like unbalance. It just adds more strategical interest to the job.
I'm sure it's really "fun" for players who barely manage to use binding skill in game to get a big hps in pvp.
For the others there are around 40 skill to use. We want to make use of all of them.

It reminds me discussion about healers and tank trying to optimize their dps in dungeon. There are always some guys who ask them "why ? you're a healer ! just heal."

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

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The point is that he finds Healing in PvP fun, and you don't . That's fine and all, because soemthing like fun is subjective.

But PvP and PvE are completely different beasts. Tanks are not "tanking", they are disrupting the enemy team. DPS isn't focusing on dpsing as much as they are trying to burst on another player who are reactionary to their environments and being babysat by their healers, and healers are keeping their party up in an environment where damage is not scripted and predictable. Just because you personally are not having fun healing in PvP does not necessarily mean the healer role in PvP needs to be adjusted. Maybe it's not your cup of tea. Just like how players don't like healing/tanking in PvE so that we have shortages of both of them.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

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For the others there are around 40 skill to use. We want to make use of all of them.

... There are always some guys who ask them "why ? you're a healer ! just heal."

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If you are only healing in pvp as a healer you're doing it wrong. No one is suggesting that you should not dps.

Stuff i do on healer in pvp:

• Constantly disable enemies (Sleep/bind/heavy)
• Deny nodes with aoe (Misasma 2/holy/assize/aether burst/retrogradation/etc.)
• Bait people away
• Heal spam other parties
• Distract/waste people's cooldowns and LBs by super tanking with atunement/sacred prism/equanimity + cure bomb
• Knock people away when they deny or attempting to cap a node (fluid aura/aura blast)
• Save people from death and remove debuffs.
• Knock people back in the party's kill zone
• Spread dots around (gets me kills here and there)

I use all the tools of my class in every match. Why arent you ?

The only reason someone would tell you that, is because your not doing a very good job doing both. From what I've heard it was taken out because groups of healers would team up and become immortal killing machines. So Its not coming back, sorry.

The thing is about to Improve the pvp concept in this game where it's really not popular.
As you said pvp is quit different than pve and for all the class.
If i see one of my teamate doing something that really not deserve the team's goal (win the game) i'm not going to heal him just because "it's supposed to be my role".
We all have the same ultimate job in pvp = to win the match. We got a lot of tools to manage to do that, and the first one is your brain. Is it time to heal ? is it time to kill ? is it time to endure ? is it time to make a tap-dancing ?
Keeping someone in life doesn't make directly progress the game. Killing does. Tank and damagedealer can do that, i don't want to rely completely on others to make the job.
Half the team seems to have no idea of what they are doing in pvp. Why should i lose my time healing them since i can make the job my-self ? And then heal when the conditions are opportune for that.

Change the cleric stance specially for pvp i don't know but make something to allow us, healer, to be more independant strategically.

You dont seem to know how seal rock works! Let me teach you the basics:

• Death = -5 points for your team.
• Kill = -5 points for the team of the killed player.
• Kills does not grant you points. Only holding nodes does.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

.. If i see one of my teamate doing something that really not deserve the team's goal (win the game) i'm not going to heal him just because "it's supposed to be my role"...

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So you will purposefully fail to do your job and handicap your team out of spite ?

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

... Why should i lose my time healing them since i can make the job my-self ? And then heal when the conditions are opportune for that. Change the cleric stance specially for pvp i don't know but make something to allow us, healer, to be more independant..

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Why dont you change to BLM? You cant do caster style DPS. Failiure on healing, dps and overall party utility. I think i know where the issue is.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

You dont seem to know how seal rock works! Let me teach you the basics:[LIST][*]Death = -5 points for your team.[*]Kill = -5 points for the team of the killed player.[*]Kills does not grant you points. Only holding nodes does.

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Well that's not right. You also gain points from killing.

You are right ineed. i was wrong. Does not excuse letting people die on purpose to drop your own score.

@OP if u want to DPS, go play dps. Better than a playing a Healer and not healing.

Dying resets your progress as much as killing gains it. Honestly if you're not going to keep people up out of spite, I'm glad I'm not in the same data center And GC as you.

If healers were capable of getting kills as much as dps is, AND keep people alive, then what's the point of any other class? Which was the problem that was presented when cleric stance was still allowed.


If you don't want to rely on dps to do their job, then honestly, play a dps then. You're clearly not enjoying your role as a healer, and you seem to have a preference to do what a dps would do.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I'm glad I'm not in the same data center And GC as you.

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Cause you think i'm not able to transfer just to see you die while

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doing something that really not deserve the team's goal

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without healing ?

https://33.media.tumblr.com/bb5f1c4d...7vruo1_500.gif

Ok just kidding.

It's part of the healer job to dps too. It's as if you'd like to remove the damage of the tanks just because they have better survivability than damage dealers.
Moreover a lot of healers proclaim that sometimes they just don't rez someone in pve cause they know this player won't help the team. Just check that http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-do-Healers.... Healers are here to make the team wins as every other job of the party, healing is just one way to do it, not a end. The end is to win, and for that you'd need sometimes to be able to kick ass instead of putting plasters on clowns running everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

It's part of the healer job to dps too....

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Which again, it sounds like you want to DPS and heal. At that point, what reason would there to be to take a dps over a healer at any time of the day? You always fail to understand that when healers were allowed to dps through cleric stance, it was overpowered and optimal comps comprised of all healers. Technically speaking you can still clutch some DoTs and spells as a healer without cleric stance, especially crowd control and knockbacks.

Go ahead. DPS. i'm cool with that. I do it too. Just dont let your team die on the count of doing mediocre dps. Your primary role is healing. You wanna kill people ? Play a dps class. We're not going back to a healer only death squad thing.

I put the field commander set and int gear on whm and the dmg doubles. Like stone 3 does 8-9% of dmg on bards and you can heal the pt. Anyway, I stopped using that and just use all right side vit gear to have 13k hp.

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Originally Posted by Renewhm

I put the field commander set and int gear on whm and the dmg doubles. Like stone 3 does 8-9 of dmg on bards and you can heal the pt.

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It's a pretty appreciable gain, though you do lose throughput. Scholar can Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio I -> Bane on packed points to get decent damage out, Broil + Energy Drain is very solid burst, and your heals aren't too crippled. It's better for small skirmishes and running battles where there's downtime between having to pump heals out (versus someone needing an Adloquium every 2 seconds or they're gonna die).

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

It's a pretty appreciable gain, though you do lose throughput. Scholar can Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio I -> Bane on packed points to get decent damage out, Broil + Energy Drain is very solid burst, and your heals aren't too crippled. It's better for small skirmishes and running battles where there's downtime between having to pump heals out (versus someone needing an Adloquium every 2 seconds or they're gonna die).

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That actually sounds like fun on scholar where eos supplements your healing and you out put decent dps. A lb will end you but I would definitely play that if my scholar wasn't another character.

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Originally Posted by Monoman

That actually sounds like fun on scholar where eos supplements your healing and you out put decent dps. A lb will end you but I would definitely play that if my scholar wasn't another character.

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It's pretty fun. I won't make any claims to optimality, but Scholar is an absolute snoozefest in PVP compared to White Mage. It's the only way I can stand to heal in Seal Rock.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

If healers were capable of getting kills as much as dps is, AND keep people alive, then what's the point of any other class? Which was the problem that was presented when cleric stance was still allowed.

If you don't want to rely on dps to do their job, then honestly, play a dps then. You're clearly not enjoying your role as a healer, and you seem to have a preference to do what a dps would do.

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Just taking this comment as quote but it is a general reply to answer like this (without any anger).


- Healer in FL want to use Cleric Stance because it is a skill that they usually have AND a lot of healers (me too) love to help the party with DPS too, this doesn't mean that u will leave them die, I know bad healers that can leave u die even without CS or even because they was focusing on apply CC and remove unuseful or not prioritary debuff.

- Take in consideration that since when CS was removed A LOT of thing changed and all "against" healers:
.Regene doesn't stack anymore
.Holy get nerfed (Gravity does the same)
and most of all

- At lv 60 DPS got a lot of burst damage for all classes, healers did not, if few decent DPS mark and burn a healer, he can't almost do anything, also it they try to stack like 7 WHM did before, something like 3 SMN will just enjoy to eat them all together.
Now healers don't earn the same DPS of a DPS class in CS, it is all way lower.
People won't just go healer to achieve kills.


I think it's time to reconsider it, and don't be blind in regard of the actual situation, how many times did u experienced a healer lack in your alliance?
My main is SCH, but I love to DPS too, so I would like sometimes to have not to decide if give my alliace a glimpse of hope switching SCH cause there are no healer, or stay DPS and just see us all die badly.

With CS I think a lot of healers would return enjoying their role, cause remember, FFXIV even in PvE allow healers to help with DPS too, it i part of our role and if someone don't like it can't just annoy who mastered his class doing it and please don't come to me and say "if u like DPS use a DPS class" cause I like to heal and I know wich are the priorities, and I could slap in the same way iny BLM for not CC or other classes for the 0 support that they give to healers when they are in need. This is one of the things that make me tableflip, sorry xD

Ps. Anyway I think a PvP like skill or an adjustment to CS would be fine, it's removal was just lazy.
No one, me too, want to see that WHM camp party.

Ty all and sorry for long post.

People who complain about no CS don't know how to play as a healer in PvP. It's that simple. Learn how to play healer in pvp right and you won't even care about CS.

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Originally Posted by LStarbreeze

People who complain about no CS don't know how to play as a healer in PvP. It's that simple. Learn how to play healer in pvp right and you won't even care about CS.

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I would like to know how u can say that an opportunity losing a part of your role, for even marginal it could be, could make you a noob only because you assume all other healer that use CS too are dumb...
This is very pretentious and stinging

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Originally Posted by Geologo

I would like to know how u can say that an opportunity losing a part of your role, for even marginal it could be, could make you a noob only because you assume all other healer that use CS too are dumb...
This is very pretentious and stinging

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Its part of their role in pve. You can't expect balance to work the same in pvp, which is why it was removed. Do not confuse the two gameplay modes because they are NOT the same.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Its part of their role in pve. You can't expect balance to work the same in pvp, which is why it was removed. Do not confuse the two gameplay modes because they are NOT the same.

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This doesn't reply to what u quoted from me, also I know I made a pretty long post before, but have u read it?
(without any pretension cause I know I exceeded a lot the 1000 char limit)

It broke the balance before, now try to consider all the changes that have been made to healers in pve and pvp until now, you will get that CS up to now won't be anymore something that will make all turn to healer because it would be "OP".

Also a lot of us are demanding a "stopgap measure", not a total reintroduction of CS exactly how it is in PvE, and even if I should not confuse PvE with PvP, this game is very PvE designed and PvP had just few adjustment to make it work, so removing totally a component of a role that for some healers it is funny and make this class fully enjoyable, I think It's just lazy, just balance it :)

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Originally Posted by Geologo

I would like to know how u can say that an opportunity losing a part of your role, for even marginal it could be, could make you a noob only because you assume all other healer that use CS too are dumb...
This is very pretentious and stinging

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Wait, did you just call me a noob and then say my post is pretentious and stinging? Oh, okay.

To me it just sounds like you (and other people) don't want to acknowledge that healing in PvP is different, and not the same job as a in PvE. I can't do anything about that for you. But, if you want to learn how to PvP as a Healer, I'm sure people wouldn't mind helping.

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- Healer in FL want to use Cleric Stance because it is a skill that they usually have AND a lot of healers (me too) love to help the party with DPS too, this doesn't mean that u will leave them die, I know bad healers that can leave u die even without CS or even because they was focusing on apply CC and remove unuseful or not prioritary debuff.

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A lot of things that we use in PvE don't quite apply in PvP, not just cleric stance. BRD and MCHs dont have much use for their regen abilities because it's way too slow for the damage loss. Tanks don't actually use their tank stance. You even mentioned this; a healer that can properly manage CS can both heal and dps, and a that point why would you ever want a dps class over a healer?

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- Take in consideration that since when CS was removed A LOT of thing changed and all "against" healers:
.Regene doesn't stack anymore
.Holy get nerfed (Gravity does the same)
and most of all

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Also applied to blackmage's flare, who is a dps class. And while regen does not stack, a healer or two is still incredibly powerful on their own right in keeping people alive. Again, having one that can do both heal and dps is outrageous, or as one who can dps and backup heal, the presence of it makes for a much better boon than a straight dps, espesically when you consider the objectives of Seize.

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- At lv 60 DPS got a lot of burst damage for all classes, healers did not, if few decent DPS mark and burn a healer, he can't almost do anything, also it they try to stack like 7 WHM did before, something like 3 SMN will just enjoy to eat them all together.
Now healers don't earn the same DPS of a DPS class in CS, it is all way lower.
People won't just go healer to achieve kills.

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Healers can pull out relatively good numbers in cleric stance in PvE, it's not *that* low. And while burst damage is definitely stronger in the case of dps, it's far from being what wins you fights. A single healer can still downplay the effects of burst dps (no one is dying if they're being babysat by a healer), and they can pull out relatively same numbers as a dps after the burst by turning on cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by LStarbreeze

Wait, did you just call me a noob and then say my post is pretentious and stinging? Oh, okay.

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Never said that YOU was a noob, cause I dont' know how you play, re-read what I wrote and u will find that what made me mad is that you assumed that other playerd don't know how to play Healer in pvp.
What I was complain about is how your post was unfair, not your healing skill.

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A lot of things that we use in PvE don't quite apply in PvP, not just cleric stance. BRD and MCHs dont have much use for their regen abilities because it's way too slow for the damage loss. Tanks don't actually use their tank stance. You even mentioned this; a healer that can properly manage CS can both heal and dps, and a that point why would you ever want a dps class over a healer?

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Tank can still use their tank abilities and even if a lot situational, they could be useful, like Tp/MP regene that also for bard those are unde the Song catogories, and their Foe Requiem is still very useful and in order to not lower Bard DPS they gave him Manasong that is a powerful pvp version of Mage ballad :/

Anyway I understand what you say, and I always found stupid saying "If healers can't have CS, why PLD has still Sword Oath?" but removing totally this from the healer role up to me is an had cut promoted at 90% by the WHM camp party in Secure FL, that really was an issue.

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And while regen does not stack, a healer or two is still incredibly powerful on their own right in keeping people alive. Again, having one that can do both heal and dps is outrageous, or as one who can dps and backup heal, the presence of it makes for a much better boon than a straight dps, espesically when you consider the objectives of Seize.

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Propely considering Seize content it is not a problem!
It will probably make healer one again a very viable class for 1vs1 (even if I would really fear to pop CS while in a WAR or SMN range, and it will we anyway very risky for all melee with a charged LB), but in a party I would hardly imagine a party with 4 healers win against a party with 2 healers, they will lack a lot on DPS.

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A single healer can still downplay the effects of burst dps (no one is dying if they're being babysat by a healer), and they can pull out relatively same numbers as a dps after the burst by turning on cleric stance.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but when I tried to see how much DPS could I do as SCH when they said "BLM is about 1200 of DPS" I was like to 550, probably a little undergeared and all we know that without using Bane SCH DPS will go all down eve if I ate my fairy to enhance it xD
That good numbers are not equiparable to what a DPS class can do, most of times what give u kill is your ability to use your skill set to make unexpected damage to a target considered "safe" so the healer before to heal him will take a little, instead what a party with a lot of healer will do is playing in a wearing battle risking to pop CS and get raped cause your powerful heals (even lustrate) will heal no more than 1k.

Up to me this won't broke the game, and anyway I'm ok with u that a class that can do "all" will get more fashon but consider that you will be continuosly focused, your role is really needed in a party and usually if u fail and die your party will be probably killed. (and remember, it's a fact that up to now there are a costant lack of them since slaughter)

So I ask you all, up to you wouldn't be ok if atleast they adjusted CS for pvp or implement one of all the suggestion made in order to give back a portion with resctriction of the DPS that a healer can effort?

Ps. I'm talking about CS considering it for Frontlines, not for wolves Den, where it has an all different impact related on the type of healer you are playing. (just a disclaimer XD)

Sorry Geologo, cleric stance would be op in pvp no matter what. Allowing a class to be tank, healer and dps wrapped up into a nice package is impossible to balance. Unless every other class can do the same i.e guild wars 2.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Sorry Geologo, cleric stance would be op in pvp no matter what. Allowing a class to be tank, healer and dps wrapped up into a nice package is impossible to balance. Unless every other class can do the same i.e guild wars 2.

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Is double warrior still the meta in pvp on GW2? or is it actually an interesting game now?

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Is double warrior still the meta in pvp on GW2? or is it actually an interesting game now?

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I actually haven't played for a long time. I checked out some of the big changes they made around june (?). But I didn't dive deep into it to really understand the changes. The last time I was actively playing hambow warrior was meta. But afaik only one warrior. I believe they long since nerfed hambow lol.