Things I'm starting to hate on AST

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

http://imgur.com/CIiffbS

Again, please stop spreading misinformation. This is with just a CNJ in party. With Foe's/Trick Attack/etc, our numbers go even higher on single target. SCH is fully capable of outputting high single target damage.

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I am sorry but show us a parse in actual raid environment where I think he is implying. That is practically in the same scenario as the 50 pages of people wanting a warrior nerfed because one did a 15k crit a while back.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

I am sorry but show us a parse in actual raid environment where I think he is implying.

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Faust is essentially a striking dummy; nothing would really change, besides an increase in DPS from group buffs and debuffs. Also, his exact words were "Scholar on anything", so it's still a fairly valid. Vlady pulls numbers like 400DPS from card buffs (and SCH only doing 170DPS) from absolutely nowhere, it's hard to take anything he says seriously.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Faust is essentially a striking dummy; nothing would really change, besides an increase in DPS from group buffs and debuffs.

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Except accuracy, stopping to go in and out of cleric stance to swap between eos and selene when the speed buff is used up. Easily missing faust from lack of gear vs a level 1 dummy that does not have any innate resistance or damage reduction.

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Except accuracy, stopping to go in and out of cleric stance to swap between eos and selene when the speed buff is used up. Easily missing faust from lack of gear vs a level 1 dummy that does not have any innate resistance or damage reduction.

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Faust is easily solo-healed, therefore no need to drop Cleric stance. There's also no need to swap between Eos and Selene. I normally hit near 700DPS as SCH against Faust in Alex Normal, but I also don't have 190 gear or the Ravana weapon on SCH as that poster does.

Are you also forgetting there are Lv 60 Striking Dummies now? I don't know for sure, since it's not provided, but I doubt that person bothered to post a parse against a level 1 Dummy.

Lol. I am doing about 500 dps against a level 1 dummy even without dots right now. You cannot compare a raid level target to a level 1 training dummy.

Faust normal can be singlehealed, no stance dancing required.
You don't need to switch fairies, and even then it wouldn't matter if you were in CS.

One other poster just threw out this number explicitly for Faust, and not to brag about SCH numbers in general.

The accuracy thing is real, but not to be dramatized in A1 normal.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Faust normal can be singlehealed, no stance dancing required.
You don't need to switch fairies, and even then it wouldn't matter if you were in CS.

One other poster just threw out this number explicitly for Faust, and not to brag about SCH numbers in general.

The accuracy thing is real, but not to be dramatized in A1 normal.

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I find it funny that the people who throw around imaginary numbers are the ones who don't post any sort of proof, and when other people post proof to refute them or prove their own theory/numbers, they just try to discredit the proof rather than actually posting their own.

Irony.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Lol. I am doing about 500 dps against a level 1 dummy even without dots right now. You cannot compare a raid level target to a level 1 training dummy.

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You said SCH can not do 800+ DPS on Single Target. I gave you a parse of it's potential. I mean if you let me full time DPS, a SCH can pull really high numbers.

Also as an AST, your DoTs aren't doing 500+ alone.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Astrologian's are competitive. As I said I am not at fault if you do not want to play to the strength of the Astrologian buff when it comes to coordinating use of your dps enhancing cards with your group.

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Where do you get this notion that this isn't already being done? No, I'm afraid you're wrong. It's objectively not even up for debate. They are not competitive. Have you familiarized yourself with the definition of the word? I'll save you some time: "As good as or better than others of a comparable nature."

If we're strictly speaking of bleeding edge content, there's a reason why the healing meta is what it is. An Astrologian cannot replace either a WHM or a SCH in the healing meta. While the job is designed to be a replacement for either, an AST must do one of the following two things to be a replacement in the meta:
A) Output enough healing to allow a SCH partner to stay in Cleric stance as often as when accompanied by a WHM, -OR-
B) Output as much dps as a SCH, while providing the same level of support as a fairy, and in an MP efficient manner

AST may do neither of these things. A White mage is uniquely suited to taking a great deal off the Scholars plate, whilst the Scholar is uniquely suited to providing DPS whilst simultaneously offering healing and support that is unaffected by Cleric stance. They complement each other perfectly. AST in no way compliments the other in such a fashion.

While you may still succeed with an AST, that does not make them competitive, and at present a great many Astrologians are sitting out because it's inefficient to take stuff to bleeding edge content that you cannot count on. Unless the odds of it performing at its peak with excellent luck results in a net gain head and shoulders above the odds of it performing at it's lowest, it's always going to be the worst possible choice, unless of course you muddy the argument with the players themselves.

The reason the current healing meta is what it currently is because some groups are sticking to the quota. Astrologian puts out basically as much as a white mage without the cooldowns so to say that the astro cannot output enough healing to cover the scholar additional dps is not entirely true. They provide their utility around card buffs which are quite strong in the hands of a skilled player who can coordinate with other people. And from my own personal parse against a (lol dummy) I was easily pushing 800 dps as well. Nocturnal actually provides stronger single target heals potency wise then white mage is capable of and as a few pages down the math between sect stance and noc efficiency wise are the same unless I am mistaken so people who say that noc is in a bath situation right now need to do more then give it a small try.

Faust is not an aoe heavy fight minus his cleave and synastry easily covers the damage buff from 4-5 to let an astro solo heal as well as a white mage as long as he is not cleaving everyone. And the parse was from the mist ward but since I do not know if you can place higher level dummies in your house or not so I cannot say.

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Astrologian puts out basically as much as a white mage without the cooldowns so to say that the astro cannot output enough healing to cover the scholar additional dps is not entirely true.

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You literally stated the problem why AST's healing can't match that of WHM's, and then said it's not true that AST's healing can't match WHM's? That's a real contradiction you've made there.

AST cannot match WHM's healing, because they lack the healing cool downs to do so. They also lack a faerie, which means that they cant contribute to a WHM (solo) healing the way a SCH can while DPS'ing.

Elaborate where card buffs are strong instead of repeating the phrase.

Noone said WHM or Astro can't push DPS, but they are more GCD-occupied doing so and willburn through mana as opposed to SCH that basically equals out on mana usage / income while DPSing.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

You literally stated the problem why AST's healing can't match that of WHM's, and then said it's not true that AST's healing can't match WHM's? That's a real contradiction you've made there.

AST cannot match WHM's healing, because they lack the healing cool downs to do so. They also lack a faerie, which means that they cant contribute to a WHM (solo) healing the way a SCH can while DPS'ing.

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And you are saying that astros cannot match white mage because they should not be able too. I never said that astro should be able to match white mage in pure healing if you count the cooldowns. But an astro with cooldowns can easily keep up a raid in all content which is what matters. Astro's bring buffs over white mages which is by design.

If you want to quote me that is fine but please do not put words in your mouth just because you do not agree with me.

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If you want to quote me that is fine but please do not put words in your mouth just because you do not agree with me.

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My post had nothing to do with making AST equal to WHM, rather I was just pointing out a flaw in your statement. There were no words placed into your mouth that you didn't say yourself.

Again, no one is advocating that AST become the same as WHM or SCH. Please, if you're going to quote me, don't put words in my mouth because you can't understand the point of a post.

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Nocturnal actually provides stronger single target heals potency wise then white mage is capable of

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That's fairly misleading. Benefic is actually 1 potency lower than Cure, and Benefic II is only 1 potency higher than Cure II. Not really enough to make NoctAST "stronger" single target healers than WHM's are, especially considering they lack things like Divine Seal and Regen which will far outpace the 1 potency difference in Cure II vs Benefic II.

You're the one who brought up healing as AST vs WHM at this point (and tried to claim they were equal, which they aren't, by a long shot), when you failed at trying to prove AST can magically add hundreds of DPS through card buffs.

tl;dr: Make AST cards better. This is the core mechanic of the class taking up numerous skills of their job... make them better.

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I need to agree with this.

I have leveled AST at the same time as I leveled whm. However it is GLARINGLY OBVIOUS already that dungeon queues on average take 4-5 minutes longer on AST.
From what I have gathered, when I leveled WHM I could easily heal off almost anything and just spam stone to great effect. On the opposing end of things AST's HoT spell is heavily front loaded however at the cost to an even shorter duration than regen and lower healing potency overall causing the AST to have to leave cleric stance more often. This is further obvious when WHM can supplement their regen with asylum (A skill I hold as very useful) and AST lacks that same capability.

The cards feel nice when PERFECTLY executed. Like I mean the doubled duration / doubled potency arrow cards on the highest DPS. Anything less feels terrible.

Spear? Why even bother? Unless you are in a pre-planned group this card feels nearly useless. Maybe I just haven't explored into it much but at present all I can see it being useful for is pre-planned events (RNG though, gets in the way of this outright!) or for reduction in other ast abilities like celestial opposition. (Actually while we're on that WHY would we want to even do that?!?!?! CE without a card out is just a basic stun... something WHM gets to spam on Holy!)

I find Spire to be almost irritating to draw. Balance is nice but is it really THAT nice? It doesn't feel to me like it's doing much more than the Scholar's guaranteed Selene buff. (Actually if we very seriously compare SCH's Selene buff to a spread arrow buff... that took the AST a lot of luck AND planning and cooldowns just to get 15s of a marginally better buff out there?! It is CLEARLY inefficient in comparison!)

Now don't get me wrong, I love AST and seriously find the playstyle interesting... but at present the card system feels trivialized and leaves me sitting here asking myself why even bother with it? AST's heals are clearly lower than WHM. AST's damage migration is poor at best because WHM can cross class virus and e4e which are two essential damage mitigation tools and overall I just feel like AST trades in SO MUCH for what...? For what? Card system that is heavily based in RNG and non-guarantees that are ALSO weak in effect? It isn't really worth it.

It's like they watered down WHM and watered down scholar and put it into AST. That's the only way I can describe it, it obviously has WAY more direct healing power than Scholar but way less tools to migate damage like dome, e4e, virus, etc. It feels like a slap to the face after playing SCH and WHM to go to AST and have most of these damage control abilities stolen from us.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

The reason the current healing meta is what it currently is because some groups are sticking to the quota. Astrologian puts out basically as much as a white mage without the cooldowns so to say that the astro cannot output enough healing to cover the scholar additional dps is not entirely true. They provide their utility around card buffs which are quite strong in the hands of a skilled player who can coordinate with other people. And from my own personal parse against a (lol dummy) I was easily pushing 800 dps as well.

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It's true that some players would prefer to stick to the quota as you say, and that *will* occasionally come about because some players would rather follow someone else's lead than formulate their own method. However, that does not mean that you can claim this to be the case for everyone. There is a solid reasoning behind the meta, and it works.


No matter how much you claim to put out as much healing as a White Mage, you simply aren't capable of it. Yes, your potencies aren't far off, but as an AST you have no means by which to push your healing forward in times of need or to take additional weight off your SCH partner. Divine Seal being available every 60 seconds atop the already higher base potencies is not something to sneeze at. While Asylum may not be the most potent of abilities, it is still providing additional healing at crucial moments that AST simply has no method of producing. Similarly, Assize is no joke (unless you enjoy calling it by another name, as I do). It's additional instant healing, at no cost.
I don't even need to go into your own dps, because you'd need to come out of Cleric stance far more frequently than a SCH paired with a WHM would. A scholar can only maintain Cleric stance for so long because of the presence of that fairy coupled with the top-tier healing capability of the WHM. You're also ignoring the fact that RNG is unreliable. You may enter Savage one of these times and find that you only ever pull the same two far from ideal cards repeatedly. Hell, I have. In such cases Astrologians support becomes a terrible joke. If you're coming up roses all the time on your draws, then I envy your good fortune.

Until you actually get out there and do the parses then you will see instead of magically downloading the power of astro buffs. You can computate the range off p possible cards being pulled but when dozens of parses over the course of a month adds the average of buffing my family in dungeons it shows a different light.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Until you actually get out there and do the parses then you will see instead of magically downloading the power of astro buffs. You can computate the range off p possible cards being pulled but when dozens of parses over the course of a month adds the average of buffing my family in dungeons it shows a different light.

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No one cares about the average you've obtained from parsing over a month. You are, hopefully, not doing the same fight for a month. What matters is the average DPS you've contributed through cards over the course of a fight, which can literally be 0 if luck hates you enough. The numbers you've expressed in the past and supposedly parsed are also numerically impossible so that doesn't help your case.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Until you actually get out there and do the parses then you will see instead of magically downloading the power of astro buffs. You can computate the range off p possible cards being pulled but when dozens of parses over the course of a month adds the average of buffing my family in dungeons it shows a different light.

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then post some of these parses and show us, show us how you are adding 400dps to drg or how your adding 150+ dps to your brother friend or whatevers machinist to the whole run, lots of people have posted concrete evidence, some of us have actually taken the job into all content that isnt just 4 man pushover dungeons and provided our testimonial ,all we have gotten from you is exagerations and meaningless drivel that leads a majority of people to think you are either completely and utterly ignorant or your just a really bad troll. Take it into savage finish A1 then tell us you feel that the job is worth a HEALER slot where HEALING is your main priority. Provide evidence to back your claims instead of hyperbole.

Did you ever realise that someones numbers in a given fight will change from try to try?

Mechanics, perfomance etc. is what you see in your parser differences.
This has a tenfold bigger impact on DPS.

You might give balance to one particular DPS in a fight, but depending on mechnics he leaves with less DPS than the try before where you didn't buff them.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Until you actually get out there and do the parses then you will see instead of magically downloading the power of astro buffs. You can computate the range off p possible cards being pulled but when dozens of parses over the course of a month adds the average of buffing my family in dungeons it shows a different light.

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I have two questions.
1) Are you on some mind-altering substance right now?
and
2) Can I have some?

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Did you ever realise that someones numbers in a given fight will change from try to try?

Mechanics, perfomance etc. is what you see in your parser differences.
This has a tenfold bigger impact on DPS.

You might give balance to one particular DPS in a fight, but depending on mechnics he leaves with less DPS than the try before where you didn't buff them.

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The issue is with this statement you're implying an AST can actually pre-prepare for mechanics in advance and choose when and where to use their mechanics. Unfortunately cards are completely random so no amount of mechanical ingenuity can help an AST if they don't get lucky.

Like yeah you can walk in knowing you'll have the balance on spread but that's it.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Good times!

I genuinely appreciate most of your math work, Ghishlain. I'm not particularly adept at serious mathematics, so I leave the sleuthing to those better at it than I; however, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that most of the numbers certain people have been claiming are just flat out made up and astronomically inaccurate.

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Thank ya for the compliment~ Was gonna write a really long post about how "adding 400 DPS with card buffs is impossible" but it seems like everyone here got the point across about that.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

The issue is with this statement you're implying an AST can actually pre-prepare for mechanics in advance and choose when and where to use their mechanics. Unfortunately cards are completely random so no amount of mechanical ingenuity can help an AST if they don't get lucky.

Like yeah you can walk in knowing you'll have the balance on spread but that's it.

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Where do I imply that? I read again I can't see where you get that from, its not what I mean.

I was just saying the differences in his parser are effected by more than his cards.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Where do I imply that? I read again I can't see where you get that from, its not what I mean.

I was just saying the differences in his parser are effected by more than his cards.

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Ah my bad, I thought you were meaning an AST's mechanic's will vary from fight to fight.

Vlady, the amount of mis-information you are spouting is insane. Just a quick look at lodestone shows you are basing all your metrics, information and performance claims come from having only played AST at 60, having never even played SCH and not having any experience as a 60 WHM either. It is categorically false to suggest an AST can output the same amount of healing as other classes, you literally only need to look at the abilities of the jobs side by side and it's painfully obvious.

I'm in Savage 2 myself right now and I cannot even begin to believe having myself playing AST in there instead of SCH would be anything but a massive hindrance to our chances of success. I truly would love to speak to these supposed double AST in Savage 2 and by luck I'm on Balmung so hit me up because I just do not see how even combined they can make up for the lost DPS I provide, let alone the mitigation, healing and buffs I can provide coupled with a WHM. Truly, I would LOVE to speak with them.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Lol 800 from a scholar on anything is the real laugh. Ban e maybe but not single target.

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Oh lol, well we now know you cant get anywhere near those numbers...... Thankfully there is now a parse in this thread proving me right. So what i claim is provable, but what you are saying, as per usual, is pulled from the nether-regions and has no veracity behind it.

Perhaps you should think on how good people have to be on a class to get those numbers. And then we shall think on your claim that you get 150dps on sch in the same encounter, and balance the probabilty in skill level between you and i on sch.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

http://imgur.com/CIiffbS

Again, please stop spreading misinformation. This is with just a CNJ in party. With Foe's/Trick Attack/etc, our numbers go even higher on single target. SCH is fully capable of outputting high single target damage.

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Thanks for posting this here. Time to disprove Vlady et al with actual evidence, not random number pulled from the nether-regions. :).

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Originally Posted by Galdous

I am sorry but show us a parse in actual raid environment where I think he is implying. That is practically in the same scenario as the 50 pages of people wanting a warrior nerfed because one did a 15k crit a while back.

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Please notice that i specified that the 800 dps if from the faust fight only. Therefor your reading comprehension maybe needs some work. The expected dps of a SCH in a raid environment was seperated in my post, with faust and the subsequent fight being seperated. Please learn to comprehand what is being talked about rather doing this obtuse, flippant response. We are talking about possible SCH DPS obtained in faust normal by people who are highly skilled at this job. It make Vladys claim of 150 dps an absolute joke, and leads way to question his skill on this class, especially with his egregious clamin on SCH vs AST.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Except accuracy, stopping to go in and out of cleric stance to swap between eos and selene when the speed buff is used up. Easily missing faust from lack of gear vs a level 1 dummy that does not have any innate resistance or damage reduction.

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Accuracy is absolutely not an issue in faust normal, i miss once or twice in the encounter. The SCH does no healing in this encounter. In a 2-2.5 min fight, fey wind is up for 1-1.5 min. This math is not difficult to do.

Also all of this is explained in my post. Did you actually read it?

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Lol. I am doing about 500 dps against a level 1 dummy even without dots right now. You cannot compare a raid level target to a level 1 training dummy.

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Well it must be skill that makes up that last 300 dps then if you cant get it and others can. Proof has been posted in this thread about the specifics i have talked about. Once again, you can not prove a single thing you claim. Change the record.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

The reason the current healing meta is what it currently is because some groups are sticking to the quota. Astrologian puts out basically as much as a white mage without the cooldowns so to say that the astro cannot output enough healing to cover the scholar additional dps is not entirely true. They provide their utility around card buffs which are quite strong in the hands of a skilled player who can coordinate with other people. And from my own personal parse against a (lol dummy) I was easily pushing 800 dps as well. Nocturnal actually provides stronger single target heals potency wise then white mage is capable of and as a few pages down the math between sect stance and noc efficiency wise are the same unless I am mistaken so people who say that noc is in a bath situation right now need to do more then give it a small try.

Faust is not an aoe heavy fight minus his cleave and synastry easily covers the damage buff from 4-5 to let an astro solo heal as well as a white mage as long as he is not cleaving everyone. And the parse was from the mist ward but since I do not know if you can place higher level dummies in your house or not so I cannot say.

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Its amazing how in one thread, you have gone from 150DPS, to 500DPS to 800DPS. Claims are not believable Vlady, unless you have suddenly figured how well the skilled healers are doing and learned from them?

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Until you actually get out there and do the parses then you will see instead of magically downloading the power of astro buffs. You can computate the range off p possible cards being pulled but when dozens of parses over the course of a month adds the average of buffing my family in dungeons it shows a different light.

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Hang on. So what you are saying is you want parsers to magicaly prove you right when it comes to card, yet when someone show evidence of the power of SCH DPS, it cant be counted?

SCH DPS is far higher than you claim it is and has been proven to be, albeit in once very specific case, but one in which you decided to argue against.

Sigh

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Originally Posted by Yurimi

completely and utterly ignorant

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I go for this one in regards to the person you are talking about :).

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Originally Posted by Ritsugamesh

by luck I'm on Balmung so hit me up because I just do not see how even combined they can make up for the lost DPS I provide, let alone the mitigation, healing and buffs I can provide coupled with a WHM. Truly, I would LOVE to speak with them.

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I have been waiting a long long long time for someone to take up his offer like this :). Can you do us all a favour and keep us updated on this proposal and how it goes when you are introduced to Balmung cutting edge progression raid groups who are running AST permanently in their raid groups, and especially the ones who are running 2 x AST :).

The only thing I hate about Astrologian is the cool down time for celestial opposition. It feels like forever and I just want to spam it because it's so beautiful ;____;

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

The only thing I hate about Astrologian is the cool down time for celestial opposition. It feels like forever and I just want to spam it because it's so beautiful ;____;

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Yeah it's pretty but then you realize that it's basically just half of a WHM's spammable holy then it's like just a giant sparkly thing (Which yes is spammable, I have just chugged through The Vault yet again spamming holy to AOE mobs!).

The 5s duration extension is nice though.

If you would have showed me the faust parse I would gladly have not pointed out the difference in a dummy and Faust. And after the 5 damage up buff as an Astro I guess I can say that the white mage has to take over helping to heal.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Oh lol, well we now know you cant get anywhere near those numbers...... Thankfully there is now a parse in this thread proving me right. So what i claim is provable, but what you are saying, as per usual, is pulled from the nether-regions and has no veracity behind it.

Perhaps you should think on how good people have to be on a class to get those numbers. And then we shall think on your claim that you get 150dps on sch in the same encounter, and balance the probabilty in skill level between you and i on sch.



Thanks for posting this here. Time to disprove Vlady et al with actual evidence, not random number pulled from the nether-regions. :).



Please notice that i specified that the 800 dps if from the faust fight only. Therefor your reading comprehension maybe needs some work. The expected dps of a SCH in a raid environment was seperated in my post, with faust and the subsequent fight being seperated. Please learn to comprehand what is being talked about rather doing this obtuse, flippant response. We are talking about possible SCH DPS obtained in faust normal by people who are highly skilled at this job. It make Vladys claim of 150 dps an absolute joke, and leads way to question his skill on this class, especially with his egregious clamin on SCH vs AST.



Accuracy is absolutely not an issue in faust normal, i miss once or twice in the encounter. The SCH does no healing in this encounter. In a 2-2.5 min fight, fey wind is up for 1-1.5 min. This math is not difficult to do.

Also all of this is explained in my post. Did you actually read it?



Well it must be skill that makes up that last 300 dps then if you cant get it and others can. Proof has been posted in this thread about the specifics i have talked about. Once again, you can not prove a single thing you claim. Change the record.



Its amazing how in one thread, you have gone from 150DPS, to 500DPS to 800DPS. Claims are not believable Vlady, unless you have suddenly figured how well the skilled healers are doing and learned from them?



Hang on. So what you are saying is you want parsers to magicaly prove you right when it comes to card, yet when someone show evidence of the power of SCH DPS, it cant be counted?

SCH DPS is far higher than you claim it is and has been proven to be, albeit in once very specific case, but one in which you decided to argue against.

Sigh

I have been waiting a long long long time for someone to take up his offer like this :). Can you do us all a favour and keep us updated on this proposal and how it goes when you are introduced to Balmung cutting edge progression raid groups who are running AST permanently in their raid groups, and especially the ones who are running 2 x AST :).

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If you cannot understand the difference between talking about normal Alexander and Savage then I really believe you are the one making yourself look like a fool and if you have issues healing alex normal with 2 astrologians then I would question your skill over anything else.

Yes when we start to raid against training dummies I will gladly take your advice on maximizing my damage output since two astrologians will be able to full dps during this fight.

Once more I only said that astrologian can keep up with white mage as a healer until you consider cooldowns then we should not be on par with the white mage because strongest on demand healing power is the realm of the white mage and its realm only.

Our utility buff wise is above the scholar which it should be. Instead of trying to always downplay the astrologian go out and do a few parses yourself with a dragoon and use balance on him once he uses his cooldowns (yes even on a training dummy.) and you will see where I get my numbers from.

The Astrologian has healed all content so far in this game and the bad attempts to downplay a job that very strong and only needs cooldown changes is silly.

I'm only level 50 and I can already feel the heal output difference in comparison to where my Scholar was at that level. And unlike Scholar, I'm not going to get any new skills that will really help my healing output...


Could someone give me some of what Vlady is on? Because it sounds like really good stuff if it make you capable of completely disregarding reality.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

If you would have showed me the faust parse I would gladly have not pointed out the difference in a dummy and Faust. And after the 5 damage up buff as an Astro I guess I can say that the white mage has to take over helping to heal.



If you cannot understand the difference between talking about normal Alexander and Savage then I really believe you are the one making yourself look like a fool and if you have issues healing alex normal with 2 astrologians then I would question your skill over anything else.

Yes when we start to raid against training dummies I will gladly take your advice on maximizing my damage output since two astrologians will be able to full dps during this fight.

Once more I only said that astrologian can keep up with white mage as a healer until you consider cooldowns then we should not be on par with the white mage because strongest on demand healing power is the realm of the white mage and its realm only.

Our utility buff wise is above the scholar which it should be. Instead of trying to always downplay the astrologian go out and do a few parses yourself with a dragoon and use balance on him once he uses his cooldowns (yes even on a training dummy.) and you will see where I get my numbers from.

The Astrologian has healed all content so far in this game and the bad attempts to downplay a job that very strong and only needs cooldown changes is silly.

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can you just stop... it cant keep up with white mage there is already almost a 7% gap in healing without running ANY cooldowns. My partner who always dragoons with me in dungeons for our roulettes guess what after the dungeon the parse didnt even look as if they were getting any buffs... even with perfect uptime on the best card its a 5% increase in dps on her 1200 dps thats around 60 and thats if you draw balance every 30s and only balance time dilation and celestial oposition that now its a 62 dps increase over a run. I lose time I could dps casting heals and using cards. I can tell you right now my dps loss as an astro vs sch or whm in a dungeon is not going to be offset even by god teir luck.so my healing is sub par my dps is sub par and my support is more reliably offered by other jobs. I bring a paltry 5% increase to the party IF i can get the same card every single time. Its not a very strong healer its a sub par healer that doesnt know what it wants.

OK, the biggest problem with Astro, it's not that their healing is slightly a bit less, but their supposed "specialty trick" is REALLY REALLY BAD in comparison to other job's "buffing" abilities. It's too short, too random, and on a really long cooldown. SE should REALLY take a LONG HARD look at their older game, FFXI, with EXCELLENT support roles on Bard + Corsair + Geomancer + Red Mage. Copy some of those and tailor to fit for Astro, and call it a day.

1. WHM - superior healing, no contest is the best healer per mana in the game, good DPS, great AOE healers and lots of burst heal. If you just want to heal + HOT, and occasional DPS, WHM is the job for you. MP management is an issue
2. SCH - good shield + damage prevention healer, fairy has WAY BETTER buffs compared to AST, you CAN CONTROL the buffs too. MP management is a bit easier due to Aetherflow, DPS is solid.

How to fix ASTRO's dumb stupid card trick:
1. Narrow it down to 4 types of buffs: damage reduction (physical + magical), damage up, refresh, skill cooldown reduction.
2. Make those buffs last 20 seconds, on 30 seconds timer draw. You can now CHOOSE which of the 4 you want to draw.
3. Modify the royal road and shuffle, and change it to, one abilities extend the duration by 10 seconds, on 90 seconds timer. The other ability will make any buffs AOE, but reducing it to 10 seconds AOE, also on 90 seconds timer, potency remain the same.
4. Reduce MP cost on some the spells.
5. Let Nocturnal's shield to scale up and critical, similar to how Scholar's shield work.
6. Change Lightspeed to last 15 seconds and on 60 seconds CD, identical to WHMs divine seal. This is our "oh shyait our DPS are too dumb to function" button.
7. Change Essential Dignity to 30 seconds.

Now ASTRO is your HEALER who can BUFFS, who no longer deal with random, but with somewhat effective buffs in comparison to other jobs in the game. You can now be in control on your buffs, to ONE party members, or make it AOE but using an ability that is on a longer timer. Compare to fairy's buff, the fairy one is better since it is AOE, but AST buffs has more potency and you can control on which party member and which buffs to give.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

If you would have showed me the faust parse I would gladly have not pointed out the difference in a dummy and Faust. And after the 5 damage up buff as an Astro I guess I can say that the white mage has to take over helping to heal.



If you cannot understand the difference between talking about normal Alexander and Savage then I really believe you are the one making yourself look like a fool and if you have issues healing alex normal with 2 astrologians then I would question your skill over anything else.

Yes when we start to raid against training dummies I will gladly take your advice on maximizing my damage output since two astrologians will be able to full dps during this fight.

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So you were the one to start talking about alexander normal and that a SCH should be doing 150 dps there. My response, like always, was to prove that you are factually incorrect, which seems to be the norm here. It seems to be something that everyone on these forums is doing in regards to your claims, that once again, you have been unable to substantiate. So how about some proof of these claims of yours then?

And just to let you know, Faust is part of the raid, and is not a training dummy like you claim. Myself and other SCH have got to 800DPS here as expalined in my post. If you can only get to 150 it is entirely reflective of you skill, or lack there of.

And i can tell you, balance will always do 10% extra damage unless enhanced, not like you claim when you pluck figures out of thin air to try and say you add 400 DPS to a dragoon in a raid. Credibility is something you really seem to lack. So how about you actually show us some of these figures for once?

No matter what I do to prove it will be either ignored or picked apart and compared to other posts where I was talking about normal which I did specify normal so if you want to meet in game to discuss this over me wasting my 20 post count for trying to defend myself then we can always meet in game and show tests with buffed cards and without pretty easily. I am not a numbers math person so I am not going to throw formulas over something much more simple which is being in a group and parsing the highest dps job in the game with and without buffs for comparison which I did both as a test and in raids.

My credibility has nothing to do with the fact that astrologians are fine in dealing with all content in the game. You like to go beyond that and state we do not have the healing of a white mage or the personal dps of a scholar in which we should not because we were designed to boost other people's offensive/defensive abilities which is what we do well.

You can continue to downplay the job all you want but you do not have to play it. I am sorry that some people do not want to take the time to master the cards for proper use to maximize its effect but yes if you keep pulling them and randomly slinging them out you will be behind the other two jobs because astrologian does require tight monitoring of other jobs for max card use which is something the other jobs do not have to worry about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

No matter what I do to prove it will be either ignored or picked apart and compared to other posts where I was talking about normal which I did specify normal so if you want to meet in game to discuss this over me wasting my 20 post count for trying to defend myself then we can always meet in game and show tests with buffed cards and without pretty easily. I am not a numbers math person so I am not going to throw formulas over something much more simple which is being in a group and parsing the highest dps job in the game with and without buffs for comparison which I did both as a test and in raids.

My credibility has nothing to do with the fact that astrologians are fine in dealing with all content in the game. You like to go beyond that and state we do not have the healing of a white mage or the personal dps of a scholar in which we should not because we were designed to boost other people's offensive/defensive abilities which is what we do well.

You can continue to downplay the job all you want but you do not have to play it. I am sorry that some people do not want to take the time to master the cards for proper use to maximize its effect but yes if you keep pulling them and randomly slinging them out you will be behind the other two jobs because astrologian does require tight monitoring of other jobs for max card use which is something the other jobs do not have to worry about.

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Sorry Vlady, this response just does not fly. When asked to prove somehting, you retreat, and have the gaul to suggest someone pays money to transfer to your server, otherwise you wont back up what you say. How out of touch with reality are you? Seriously, just seriously stop.

If you dont want to "waste posts" then dont post, its that simple. You have the choice to post or not.

You posts are picked apart due to egregious misinformation you load them with. You havent been able to back up one claim you have made so far, and then wonder why people pick them apart when they are so glaringly wrong. People can do the same with mine if they want, this is the nature of posting on internet forums. If i make mistakes then someone will pick me up on them.

Now back to actual topic of AST. No matter which way you try and argue it, its HPS is significantly lower than both SCH and WHM. Im content where HOs thresholds are needed for progression, ASt just doesnt cut it like the other 2 healers. There is no validity to your notion that this should be the case sine it brings "buffs". Why is this? Well the buffs dont bring anything more significant than either a SCH or WHM buffs do. You can argue with imaginary figures of buffing dragoon dps by 400, or telling forum member thta you wont back up anythign you say unless they pay to transfer to your server all you like. SCH dps buff has consistency, it personal dps is beastly in a raid. WHM has commendable dps in raids even with it mp issues compared to SCH, but more than anything, a WHM facilitates SCh dps in raids. AST does non of this. It has RNG that can make no imoact on a fight what so ever, and lacks the healing throughput and cooldowns to facilitate other healers to dps.

Also, do not mistake underpowered equating a class that requires more skill, this is just a fallacious argument. AST is far easier to heal on than SCH, has less resources to deal with and has a very similar healing style to WHM, yet lacks the ability and power of WHM.

People want changes to AST to make them competitive with the other two healers. There really is no need to White Knight it to the extent that you are doing, especially when the claims can not be substantiated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

No matter what I do to prove

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Prove

1. to test the truth, validity, or genuineness of
2. to test the worth or quality of; specifically : to compare against a standard
3. to check the correctness of (as an arithmetic result)
4. to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic)

You have not demonstrated any truth, validity, logic, correctness, existence of truth, etc.

A statement, claim, number, idea without any logic or proof backing it up us not existence of proving something and thus you only make yourself look worse than you claim to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Prove

1. to test the truth, validity, or genuineness of
2. to test the worth or quality of; specifically : to compare against a standard
3. to check the correctness of (as an arithmetic result)
4. to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic)

You have not demonstrated any truth, validity, logic, correctness, existence of truth, etc.

A statement, claim, number, idea without any logic or proof backing it up us not existence of proving something and thus you only make yourself look worse than you claim to be.

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Essentially this. You have done nothing to prove what you claim and that's why people "pick apart" what you post, because most of it is filled with whimsical numbers that cannot possibly be achieved. Until you can actually prove what you're claiming, please refrain from posting misinformation as you continue to do when trying to "prove" what cards are capable or when comparing the healing potency or WHM vs AST.

It doesn't take "being good at math" to determine most of what you've claimed is patently false. Even with napkin math, at no point will cards add over 100DPS to an encounter unless that encounter is only 15 seconds long.

It doesn't take exhaustive testing to determine that AST isn't a better (or even equal, as you're claiming) healer than WHM, either. Just by comparing potency and CDs, it's easily determined that WHM is far better at both single-target healing and AoE healing.

You're credibility is nil at this point; the more you make wild claims like these, the less likely people are going to pay attention to anything you say. White knighting for a class does absolutely nothing for you or the class itself. As evidenced by many AST's, parses, and "napkin math", it's performance is lagging behind that of WHM/SCH.

The point of discussions like this isn't to demean AST or anyone playing it, but rather to provide feedback (as asked by SE) on the class in order to bring it's performance to a more competitive level. You seem to look at this as more of a personal attack, which it's not, and are completely unable to look at the subject objectively because of it.

Basically ... If you're going to make wild claims (cards adding 400 DPS, AST healing equal with WHM), be able to prove them. Otherwise, refrain from doing so or risk being called out on it as it is misinformation.

Yes some people want to change how a job works and remake it into something else. Some people want it to have potency boost and white mage level healing cooldowns. You bring the white mage for the pure burst healing and the scholar for its utility and mitigation. You bring the astrologian for its damage improving buffs and its versatility. You seem to have an issue with the astrologian filling that niche which it does and yes it will receive more fixes but please do not get your hopes up because the healing and buffs are what is fine about the job. It is the range of cards to an extent and the fact we lost our ability to be versatile in combat

And you can expect people to take you seriously when you think its a bad idea that white mage can outheal astrologians in oh shit situation? Sorry but that does not fly when you go from drama on the forums to actually playing the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

You bring the white mage for the pure burst healing and the scholar for its utility and mitigation. You bring the astrologian for its damage improving buffs and its versatility.

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Sorry, right now AST has NO NICHE at all, unless you call "novelty healer with nice animation" is a niche. The buffs are significantly worse than what SCH can bring. The randomness are just pure garbage. None of their so called stance is ANY GOOD at all. The damage improving is just a fallacy, too random to be meaningful when you compared to what Bard can bring. Versatility??? LMAO, you are joking right? AST cannot stance dance once the battle starts. When "shit hit the fans", AST would be totally wrecked, with no way to recover the party's HP fast enough, nor able to sustain itself in a long fight where MP management become a BIG issue. AST is AMAZING at content below level 50, at level 30, this job is THE BEST out there compare to the other two. At level 60, is the WORST healer in the game.

If the so called versatile is being able to switch to "WHM or SCH" stance to complement the other healer, then by all means, AST should be able to heal JUST AS GOOD as the other healer in the respective stance. As of right now, the so called "card buffs" are just nice to throw in once in awhile - since these buffs are just so small due to randomness to be able to be any good on level 60 content. SCH + Bard in a party is far far better set up if you want a buffer. There is no place for AST on endgame content. WHM + SCH + Bard is your three must have for the combination. AST cannot, will not, and never going to replace that set unless SE make changes and fix AST as the niche healer who can buff the party REALLY REALLY good!!

By the way, I like AST, and I want this job to become what has been promised. A healer who can buffs, really good, and can become either SCH or WHM depending on the stance, to complement the other healer. Right now, it's a job that cannot do all the things that have been "sold and advertised" before launch.