Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

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Originally Posted by winsock

PLD already has a lot more support than the other 2 tanks. Cover, Divine veil, clemency, stoneskin.

Even if you gave PLD additional support like tp/mp regen, you run into a similar scenario. If PLD is viable at tp/mp regen + fills the tanking role, what prevents BRDs/MCHs spots from being replaced by PLD?

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Never said to give them tp/mp regen. MCH/BRD are already the lowest dps and removing the one needed thing they bring to the raid would make them obsolete, but I'm sure there's a lot of different buffs PLD could provide. Hell, give them the ability to "pierce" enemies with their sword tip, decreasing damage resistance vs piercing weapons to compliment Drg like War/Nin. MCH and BRD would really appreciate another way to get the damage increase without having having to rely on Drg alone. Though obviously, this wouldn't help the PLD himself and wouldn't be as big a bonus.

Basically, when it comes to the holy trinity, once healing and tanking are both viable, the only really way to continue to benefit the party is increased dps or more support abilities that increase dps. As I said, it's a flaw in the system that no one has really been able to address. Except maybe GW2 and they did that by throwing the entire Trinity away.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

that by throwing the entire Trinity away.

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It's because the concept of a trinity is a failed concept in this game due to the lack of damage taken by tanks and the amount healers can recover in general. The fact that Tanks are running as MT outside of their Tanking stance other than to gain initial hate is proof enough.

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Originally Posted by Seku

It's because the concept of a trinity is a failed concept in this game due to the lack of damage taken by tanks and the amount healers can recover in general.

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As long as only tanks can tank and healers can heal, the trinity works.

Even in tank stance, tanks have a lot more mitigation and HP than DPS.

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Originally Posted by MoarLegion

Lustrate is a now 600 potency heal, and essential dignity is a 400 potency heal. There are no "X% of target HP" heals except Benediction now, which means these abilities work with Defiance and Convalescence now.

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No, they don't. With the 25% of max HP thing they were equal to paladins when taking a lustrate. Lustrate is now an ability with potency. Ability, not spell.

Abilities are not affected by the defiance or convalescence bonus, meaning warriors get none of the defiance benefit from them. Paladins and dark knights still have their flat 20% mitigation while Warrior has only the enhanced HP which equates to half of their tank stance. That tank stance is already less effective than shield oath and grit without negating the 20% healing buff.

So lustrate is worse on a Warrior now.

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Originally Posted by Seku

It's because the concept of a trinity is a failed concept in this game due to the lack of damage taken by tanks and the amount healers can recover in general. The fact that Tanks are running as MT outside of their Tanking stance other than to gain initial hate is proof enough.

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Are you honestly taking the tendency to be out of tank stance for dungeon runs as proof of the trinity being a poor thing? The trinity is not a failed concept, any alternative tends to suck. The only glaring issue right now is that WAR is geared towards OTing which makes them a must have for raiding. The argument that this is a poor thing is flawed in and of itself because for progression raiding there are many must have classes because most of them bring something unique that you'll want for certain fights. There's no real way of fixing this other than lowering WAR damage, but do that and people won't want WAR at all because they are a poorer MT choice for myriad reasons. I see nothing wrong with a system where certain tanks are wanted for certain material, other roles have had to deal with this all throughout ARR, and its one of the things that people like about the FFXIV system: classes are unique.

If you want a MT, run a PLD or DRK.

If you want to OT, run a WAR

If you want both, roll a 2 or more and enjoy that the majority of their gear is shared.

• Defiance/Deliverance are on a 10s cooldown
• Defiance doesn't give its mitigation instantly
• WARs receive slightly less healing from all spells, and significantly less healing from all abilities
• IB is the cooldown with the tightest timing, and it's also WAR's main mitigation
• In Deliverance, WAR doesn't have access to its best mitigation tool
• WAR doesn't have any big advantage against either physical or magical damage

These threads are honestly ridiculous. Each tank has their advantages and disadvantages. PLDs just seem mad that they're not guaranteed a MT spot any more. They do good enough DPS compared to the other tanks (high 800s vs ~950 on WAR) and, as all PLDs like to say, have the best overall mitigation. Just because it's not NEEDED in a fight doesn't make it useless. You can't have mitigation like Sentinel and Hallowed and also do huge DPS. Live with your disadvantage, the majority of people here aren't hardcore raiders (me included) and that extra tiny bit of DPS won't mean anything next week when everyone gets their weapon.

If you're in a group where people are threatening to kick you because you're a PLD, you really should reconsider if you actually want to play with them.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

I'd forgotten about the cleave.
No, Prey isn't a buster in A1N. It is in A1S, tho, iiuc (never tried it). Still, my point stands - PLD CDs aren't completely worthless in A1-A3, and in fact should be quite valuable in A3 because his cleave is also his "buster".



--Erim Nelhah

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Prey is not a tank buster in A1N OR A1S. Prey is prey, 6 missiles will hit the target. Target is random. It's also physical, not magical. His cleave 'royal fount' is a pathetic 5 k unmitigated hit. Not a tank buster.

A1N has no tank buster, A1S has hypercompressed plasma. It is a magical attack dealing around 25k unmitigated damage on the player with the highest threat. The tank. Please don't mistake a simple damage mechanic for an actual buster of tanks.

In a world where Warriors get Storm's Path, the highest DPS by a significant margin over DRK and a HUGE margin over PLD, where they have an even huger margin over the other two tanks in dungeons without ninjas, and entirely comparable mitigation that allows them to tank all fights, why wouldn't they be the best tank by a huge margin?

They literally have their cake, eat it too, and get a indespensible debuff on top of that. In fact, people are even trying to spin wariror's disadvantages (Such as the fact it's the ONLY tank that can swap between stances oGCD) as disadvantages which boggles my damn mind.

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Originally Posted by Tila

If you want both, roll a 2 or more and enjoy that the majority of their gear is sharednone of the gear is shared, and you spent tens of hours doing extra grind for a class you may not want to play.

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I would not mind if esoterics was not AF2.

Also, if WAR wasn't a better MT than the other two as well, simply though that stacking classes = lower LB and that WAR is such a good OT.

There is no reason not to bring a WAR mt if you want.

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Originally Posted by Seku

It's because the concept of a trinity is a failed concept in this game due to the lack of damage taken by tanks and the amount healers can recover in general. The fact that Tanks are running as MT outside of their Tanking stance other than to gain initial hate is proof enough.

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I don't think it's a failed concept. The system just has its flaws. All systems do. The tricky thing for developers is finding out how to make each job unique, but still "equal" without homogenizing everything. Unfortunately, it's proven difficult to do in some cases. Just look at MCH and BRD, they're pretty much interchangeable and play very similar.

I think, the only way to fix this is to eliminate stance dancing. Like making using/deactivating grit/defiance/shield oath only out of combat.

You can then buff certain skills to balance them for MT and OT purposes.

Decide how to balance maim and this should balance it

WARs are the best yeah. But I don't consider them absolutely mandatory. Our static is PLD + DRK and we don't have any issues. Yeah our NIN has to apply the slashing debuff, yeah we lost storm's path, but as we don't have a MNK we gained at least the INT debuff and more importantly we're playing what we like. We have no issues dealing with anything in A1S ATM. Tho I still love WAR as it's my old main and if one day I MUST absolutely switch back to WAR for a fight, I will.

why are people still complaining about war wtf

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Originally Posted by papichulo123

why are people still complaining about war wtf

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I don't think its complaints about WAR. WAR is absolutely fine, amazingly fine. So fine, in fact, that its pretty much a guaranteed spot on any endgame raid. Not many classes can claim that ( Healer dynamics excluded). The problem is with how to deal with DRK and PLD. WAR is a great OT, but it's also a great MT. PLD would be fantastic if it brought abilities to the table that supported the raid on the same level as SP and SE. It can't though so its automatically called into the MT role which its not performing as well as its tanking cousins. DRK isn't perfect but its sitting well as long as there is a WAR off tank or a ninja in the party to supplement its abilities, but its that reliance on those jobs being there that is the problem. DRK and PLD need to have a WAR or a NIN present to operate optimally, and the raid benefits even more if a WAR is partied with them.

WAR is great, but the tanking trinity needs to make tweaks to further define the intended roles of PLD and DRK.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

I think, the only way to fix this is to eliminate stance dancing.

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http://media.giphy.com/media/12XMGIWtrHBl5e/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

I think, the only way to fix this is to eliminate stance dancing. Like making using/deactivating grit/defiance/shield oath only out of combat.

You can then buff certain skills to balance them for MT and OT purposes.

Decide how to balance maim and this should balance it

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I cannot imagine a worse solution than to remove stance dancing. It is a basic part of tanking with any tank and integral to being a great Warrior. It would also affect WAR in an irreparable way, as at least 3 of our Heavensward skills require the dps stance to be on, and one of the remaining 2 is the stance itself. It would essentially put WAR back to ARR. Worse, we would be unable to even do the bad stance removal and reapplication that we did back then. Why would this even cross your mind ad a valid idea?

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

snip

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Protip: Awareness nullifies the negatives of Raw Intuition. Basically Awareness turns Raw Intuition into an amazing skill.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

PLD would be fantastic if it brought abilities to the table that supported the raid on the same level as SP and SE. .

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It does. Clemency, Stoneskin, Divine Veil, Str debuff.

Paladins don't do as much dps as warriors—this is true—but they bring a different type of raid utility that, depending on the group, could be useful. I know my AS1 group would benefit tremendously from an off tank with the ability to help heal / stoneskin a party member with prey attached to them.

People are so fixated on the max dps or gtfo mentality that they're neglecting a big portion of the classes skill set.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

It does. Clemency, Stoneskin, Divine Veil, Str debuff.

Paladins don't do as much dps as warriors—this is true—but they bring a different type of raid utility that, depending on the group, could be useful. I know my AS1 group would benefit tremendously from an off tank with the ability to help heal / stoneskin a party member with prey attached to them.

People are so fixated on the max dps or gtfo mentality that they're neglecting a big portion of the classes skill set.

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Yeah too bad that Stoneskin and Clemency lowers PLD dps even further when its already at disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Fue

Yeah too bad that Stoneskin and Clemency lowers PLD dps even further when its already at disadvantage.

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If it was a great help for keeping the raid alive, it could be a fair trade

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If it was a great help for keeping the raid alive, it could be a fair trade

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Problem is when you already have competent healers even that advantage is thrown out of the window

WARs have

Unlimited TP - equilibrium plus their best GCDs cost 0 tp
Highest burst damage
-10 damage down for the raid (Stack with INT and STR down)
Slashing damage up for DRK PLD NIN
Best stance dance which can be used to increase damage or mitigation instantly
Shortest CD timers

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

WARs have

Unlimited TP - equilibrium plus their best GCDs cost 0 tp
Highest burst damage
-10 damage down for the raid (Stack with INT and STR down)
Slashing damage up for DRK PLD NIN
Best stance dance which can be used to increase damage or mitigation instantly
Shortest CD timers

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

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Nicely summed up :)

And yes War having a guaranteed spot in a group is kinda big deal since running something like DRK/PLD combination is very unoptimal.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

It does. Clemency, Stoneskin, Divine Veil, Str debuff.

Paladins don't do as much dps as warriors—this is true—but they bring a different type of raid utility that, depending on the group, could be useful. I know my AS1 group would benefit tremendously from an off tank with the ability to help heal / stoneskin a party member with prey attached to them.

People are so fixated on the max dps or gtfo mentality that they're neglecting a big portion of the classes skill set.

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Too bad none of this type of utility is needed right now.

That is the basis of this argument. SE/SP > clemency/stoneskin/divine veil in the current raid meta.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

In a world where Warriors get Storm's Path

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DRK get something similar whose only issue is that they need to MT to use it. This isnt an example of WAR being to much, rather, a case that this ability needs to be fixed for DRK.

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the highest DPS by a significant margin over DRK and a HUGE margin over PLD

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Not when MTing, and even then its not as big as people make out to be unless the fight has boss vulnerability portions.

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Where they have an even huger margin over the other two tanks in dungeons without ninjas

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Oh no, over gearing casual content marginalizes it

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and entirely comparable mitigation that allows them to tank all fights,

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PLD and DRK are both better MT's. PLD and DRK are also capable of OTing, just not as good as WAR.

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why wouldn't they be the best tank by a huge margin?

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Because they arent, and you're just mad and failing to realize PLD has more support than WAR, which in a "lets clear everything uber fast" meta isn't as popular as the tank with more damage or the tank with a bit of damage and a bit of support. That's not a failing of game system, that's keeping tanks distinct.

The reality of it all is that there will always be a best. PLD is best physical MT, DRK is best magical MT, WAR is best OT. The healers all have their own things they're best at, and there is currently a bit of anger concerning DRG being the best DPS.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I would not mind if esoterics was not AF2.

Also, if WAR wasn't a better MT than the other two as well, simply though that stacking classes = lower LB and that WAR is such a good OT. There is no reason not to bring a WAR mt if you want.

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But thats false. What does a WAR MT bring over the other two? Assuming in your scenario you have a WAR MT and WAR OT.

Also, I imagine that the AF2 stuff will only last for this alexander raid. Look back at ARR and you'll see that the first bit of content had that class locked gear (not to such an extent I'll give you that), but after the AF it normalized into the gear all being shared. All the raid gear from ARR, tank wise, was shared among PLD and WAR. Sans the weapons. Even then, the Alexander gear is all shared between the tanks. You gear one tank in Alexander gear, you've geared them all.

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Originally Posted by Fue

Nicely summed up :)

And yes War having a guaranteed spot in a group is kinda big deal since running something like DRK/PLD combination is very unoptimal.

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I suppose the bigger issue is that we didn't really need the DRK at all. Other MMO have this same issue: tanks fill the fewest number of slots, there will always be a best MT and a best OT. If there can be said to be any one major fault of trinity, its that it doesn't suit multiple tank classes. If WAR is shifted away from the OT position, then what? It can't MT as well as the other two. If WAR is no longer the best OT, then DRK or PLD will be and we'll have the same issue as anow, but with another class.

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Originally Posted by Tila

I suppose the bigger issue is that we didn't really need the DRK at all. Other MMO have this same issue: tanks fill the fewest number of slots, there will always be a best MT and a best OT. If there can be said to be any one major fault of trinity, its that it doesn't suit multiple tank classes. If WAR is shifted away from the OT position, then what? It can't MT as well as the other two. If WAR is no longer the best OT, then DRK or PLD will be and we'll have the same issue as anow, but with another class.

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War can MT just fine, i dont get why people question it still.

@Tila

I guess my question is what makes WAR a worse MT than either DRK or PLD? Mitigation is similar even if the timing is slightly tighter.

Secondly, SE and SP are both better support abilities than DRK or PLD have to offer for raid wide utility. Maybe im wrong here but id take 10% slashing vulnerablity and 10% mitigation raidwide most of the time over a heal and 10% targetted mitigation with a cast time. Not when healing the new raids doesn't seem to be the issue at hand. I'm not saying tanks don't have their niche's, but WAR brings a ton to the table as both MT and OT.

I would love to see PLD become a true blue support OT, but I guess that's just dreams of mine.

The main problem is that WAR is so "universal".

Its damage buff helps ALL tanks (and ninjas slightly).
Its damage debuff affects ALL damage.
Its mitigation affects ALL damage.
Its mitigation is also up for ALL busters.

What the others do with their long CD abilities is have better autoattack coverage...thats it. Also DRK for discoid, though since they are roughtly 55sec apart a war can easily double IB as well, possibly only needing one if timed correctly.

I think a good solution is this:

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

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This is a good solution, but an unfortunate one. Would be nice if we didn't have to homogenize the tanks, and instead were able to give them all something unique (and important) to bring to the table. Path and Eye are both good debuffs, PLD/DRK don't necessarily need copies of those abilities but something as worthwhile.

This is not homogenization in terms of "making the classes so similar their playstyle is indistinguishable".

The classes retain their individuality. It is simply a numbers balance.

Its simpler than saying "pld take a bit less damage now from magic" or "drk now take a bit less from physical" or "bring up potency a bit for all the tanks that aren't war".

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

The main problem is that WAR is so "universal".



I think a good solution is this:

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

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So your solution to an imaginary problem is to give every tank the unique aspects of WAR?

I also propose that WAR gets grit instead of defiance, and that both DRK and WAR get a shield. While we are at it, I don't think it is fair that sch gets a fairy, so pets for all healers.

I also think that holmgang and living dead should both be changed to hallowed ground. They may keep the names they have now.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This is a good solution, but an unfortunate one. Would be nice if we didn't have to homogenize the tanks, and instead were able to give them all something unique (and important) to bring to the table. Path and Eye are both good debuffs, PLD/DRK don't necessarily need copies of those abilities but something as worthwhile.

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I personally wouldn't mind having the same perks on all the 3 tanks as long as the gameplay stays different. Hell, I want a slashing debuff on my DRK.

"unique"?

I thought the unique aspect of warrior was that it has on demand timing based damage reduction, a unique stacking resource, and the ability to stance dance more easily than the others. I forgot that the unique aspect of warrior was that it brings passively two debuffs that has no effect on its rotation, which the other two tanks also bring, but only strictly inferior copies of. Oops.

I am not sure how you guys are so insane to propose such ridiculous slippery slope arguments that have literally nothing to do with the issue at hand.

This solution doesn't change the playstyle of any tank, whatsoever. The solution also allows raids to bring the tanks they have and/or people want to play, without being handicapped for the loss of a debuff/buff.

For a real life example, lets take WoW.

Literally every one of its 4? (is it 5 now? 6? idk) tanks have a unique system, yet they all bring the same weakness debuff oh my god its like they're all the same class how did I never see this.

Holy crap. This isn't a debate. This is trying to talk sense into a raving monkey.

And FWIW, the fact that we have so many topics on the matter kinda speaks to it not being an "imaginary" problem.

Noone is saying to nerf WAR. EVERYONE enjoys the way WAR works and are excited for having a tank that is so "good" or "useful".

Now suddenly its wrong to expect the other two tanks to catch up.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

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1. what if instead we all bring 5% down that stacks and a stat debuff. Ex. PLD brings STR down, WAR brings Dex down, DRK brings INT down. Not saying these in concrete but it would require both tanks to work in unison for that 10%.
2. I don't really see a clever way to handle 2, but it would be nice.

I agree that it would somewhat make classes a bit less distinct, but when you have a raid that simply takes more damage and does less damage without a warrior, than with any of the other tanks, it is kind of silly.

If you want more unique but numbersbalancedish traits, try something like

1. PLD increases healing taken by the raid by 5%. DRK causes all damage to target to heal attackers by 1%.
2. PLD increases raid crit rate by 2%. DRK increases raid haste by 2%.

Etc etc.

The bottom line is only one class brings universally useful abilities, while the other two are niche, and don't provide ANY offensive benefit to the raid. Guess which one you always bring.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I personally wouldn't mind having the same perks on all the 3 tanks as long as the gameplay stays different. Hell, I want a slashing debuff on my DRK.

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This is a fair point, giving everyone Path/Eye wouldn't be the end of the world. WAR would need an extra debuff to stay equal with the other two tanks, though (SE + SP + STR down for PLD, SE + SP + INT down for DRK). Unfortunately there's no other relevant damage stat source outside of DEX (which would be niche at best), so... kinda a tricky situation.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This is a fair point, giving everyone Path/Eye wouldn't be the end of the world. WAR would need an extra debuff to stay equal with the other two tanks, though (SE + SP + STR down for PLD, SE + SP + INT down for DRK). Unfortunately there's no other relevant damage stat source outside of DEX (which would be niche at best), so... kinda a tricky situation.

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Well since everyone already has slashing (since everyone has a WAR in their raid) and WAR still seem to be the most popular damage one, I am unsure if WAR need another damage source.

If they do, probably just tweak maim to be a bit higher (maybe 25% damage).

RoH/RA could bring the slashing debuff for PLD, and Delirium for DRK. The MNK has both blunt debuff + INT debuff with Dragon Kick, I don't see the imbalance in getting a slashing debuff with Delirium/RoH. They would just have to seperate the INT debuff and make it a second debuff applied by the same skill (like Miasma inflicts its dot + malady + heavy at the same time) in order to make MNK and DRK still overwrite eachother's INT debuff without interfering in their respective vulnerability debuff.

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DRK get something similar whose only issue is that they need to MT to use it. This isnt an example of WAR being to much, rather, a case that this ability needs to be fixed for DRK.

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That, and they need to parry, AND it doesn't have a 100% uptime. And PLD has no equivilent. You can't seriously claim repraisal is anywhere near storm's path's level.

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PLD and DRK are both better MT's. PLD and DRK are also capable of OTing, just not as good as WAR.

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This is so wrong it actually gives me an ulcer that people keep repeating this.

Note that I'm going to assume you're not incompetent and know how to actually use inner beast for all of this. Arguing that Inner Beast is "harder to use" is not a serious argument - that's a git gud issue, not a toolkit issue.

First of all, we can completely remove Sheltron from the equation along with paladin's block increasing skill as they are completely useless in A1, A3, and A4 outside of stroking stray hits, which parry already does, as paladins cannot block magical attacks.

What does a Wariror have? Foresight, which all tanks have. A slightly worse version of Convalescence. Inner Beast, a 20% damage reduction which they can literally have up for every tankbuster. Thrill of Battle, which while not as good as Sentinel is still a good cooldown. Vengeance, which is equivilent to shadow wall and only slightly worse than Sentinel. Equilibirum and a longer duration Bloodbath, both of which are miles better than Clemency and Souleater. And in case you want to argue about Bulwark (which isn't very good outside of A2), Warriors get Raw Intuition (the 'downside' of which is incredibly easily negated via Awareness).

So Warriors can have a 20% damage reduction up for every tankbuster no sweat, with a additional 20% HP heal/increase along with a 30% damage reduction AND a 20% incoming heals increase. The only departments they're actually considerably worse is Holmgang being worse than Hallowed Ground, and for some reason Defiance not getting a heal increase from a very small handful of healing abilities. That's it - and there's not a single fight in the game right now where either of those matters enough to be able to say WAR is a worse MT.

The only reason people still run it as an OT is to maximize damage output.

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Because they arent, and you're just mad and failing to realize PLD has more support than WAR, which in a "lets clear everything uber fast" meta isn't as popular as the tank with more damage or the tank with a bit of damage and a bit of support. That's not a failing of game system, that's keeping tanks distinct.

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Oh whoope, a 3 second heal that's easily interrupted that I can only cast twice that's worthless 99% of the time if your healer isn't incompetent (and nigh-completely worthless in Savage since even AUTO ATTACKS interrupt it), a STR down debuff which is half the time pointless when well over half the big attacks and tankbusters in this xpac are magical damage, and Divine Veil which is like what, 1.2k HP if you're gearing with Tank Accessories? Once every three minutes? Compared to Storm's Path and Storm's Eye - a universal -10% damage debuff AND a 10% slashing damage resist down.

And no, Cover is not 'support,' it helped ONE fight LAST expasion for a niche purpose, it's completely worthless if you aren't garbage at your job (you can't even use it to help the other tank soak tankbusters if you're OT anymore since all of the big attacks now are almost always magic damage).

Where is this "more support" people keep touting? Seriously do you people actually know what the state of the tanks in heavensward is, or are you just repeating the same old tired mantras from last expansion because reading up on the changes forming new thoughts would be too difficult?

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Noone is saying to nerf WAR. EVERYONE enjoys the way WAR works and are excited for having a tank that is so "good" or "useful".

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Yes. We don't want WAR to get nerfed. It's in a good spot, a great spot - the problem is that the other two tanks are behind, and need to be brought up to their level. And while I don't think it'd be enough, giving all three tanks those two debuffs universally would be a fantastic start so you don't have to be forced to bring a WAR every single time.

In fact, Sentinel only has 2% more damage reduction worth of eHP than Vengeance. Shield Oath already reduces damage by 20% whereas Defiance doesn't. It makes so that Sentinel reduces 40% damage on top of already reduced damage by 20%. It makes it so that Sentinel only reduces 32% damage with shield oath, whereas Vengeance is still 30% in Defiance. Most people seem to not take that into account. Shield oath + Sentinel doesn't give 20 + 40% damage reduction, otherwise using Rempart + Sentinel on Shield oath would give 80% damage reduction and it would be almost a second Hallowed Ground.