Protect? Really important? Low level content

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

It's a lot easier to just go in with Protect slotted, buff them up, and then remove it as they run to the first pull. We're healers first, so we should always focus on supporting in whatever way we can primarily. The dps comes second to that.

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I let Eos take care of that issue in low level. The faster a mob dies, the less to heal as well.

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Originally Posted by technole

I let Eos take care of that issue in low level. The faster a mob dies, the less to heal as well.

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Agreed. People often forget that proper "support" doesn't mean mindlessly insisting on performing healing and buffing actions when supporting in other ways makes better sense and is more effective. There's a time and a place for both methods of supporting your party.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Agreed. People often forget that proper "support" doesn't mean mindlessly insisting on performing healing and buffing actions when supporting in other ways makes better sense and is more effective. There's a time and a place for both methods of supporting your party.

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Using protect is one skill you cast and are done for the rest of the dungeon. It's just laziness not to cast that at the start. It's not like it's something that requires constant vigilance.

This has been really great! I love hearing all of the opinions and reasons.

I'll definitely switch Blizzard 2 out for Aero. I think Aero is more powerful if I'm not being lazy lol. I'd also never considered changing my cross class skills around in dungeons due to the cooldown.

I agree with those that say that sometimes the best way to keep somebody alive is to remove the threat. I just changed my setup to Cleric Stance, Aero, Swift Cast, Protect, and Stoneskin. This doesn't address the main issue but I'll explain.

Cleric Stance, to me, is a no brainer. I'm a firm believer that if we are having serious issues in dungeons prior to level 20 then the tank is running naked. Eos can solo heal that no problem, and has done so on many occasions. Aero is extra damage in dungeons where Eos can still solo heal for the vast majority of the time. I put Swift Cast before Protect because in the event that somebody is killed it isn't reasonable, to me, to assume the minor mitigation of Protect would have saved them and Swift Cast can finally res people (after 28) and it has more general applications (instant heal, heal on the move). And Protect is before Stoneskin because I imagine more people would cry at 40 without protect and it is marginally better than stoneskin, imho.

I think it is important to note that, if I understand protect correctly, protect mitigates very little damage for dps and healers as it is based on the defense value of the target.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Using protect is one skill you cast and are done for the rest of the dungeon. It's just laziness not to cast that at the start. It's not like it's something that requires constant vigilance.

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But it isn't, necessarily, just a single cast time that you have. If it isn't on your cross class list at that level then it is a long wait before you can even heal. How valuable is minor mitigation compared to the mitigation of killing the enemies faster? I frequently, in low level dungeons, put out dps very similar to that of the dps classes. It comes down to asking yourself "Will I die without it?" because those dungeons can be completed much faster without it in those cases. It might seem odd but since low level tanks have low defense compared to high level tanks, protect might actually provide less mitigation than the pseudo-mitigation of more dps. Just ask Square Enix because they obviously understand this. They just released a healer whose sole focus is supporting the group to do more damage and end fights quick so that they don't need stronger heals. Even if they have the balancing a bit off at the moment.

Well, In my opinion, people shouldn't go to dungeons way under his/her level. When 4 people apply on DF, I GUESS the DF picks the highest level dungeon everybody can enter. If you enter a dungeon with a level too low is because at least one of the players are around that level. Considering you maybe have an underleveled and undergeared partner, every mitigation available should be used.

I vote for using Protect at the start, then change it for something more useful like Cleric Stance.

Roxas pick highest dung???? Have you done leveling que much it is mainly picks up on someone qued for a specific dungeon (you need to be of minim level), aslo in no way should you need to be over geared and leveled for a dungeon (people usually level through and gear up with dungeons), not sure what you mean thou so might be just confusion.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

That's what I mean by not fully ticking. By the time you've applied bio and misama to 3 to 4 mobs, you'll get aero on 1 mob? Compared to just casing ruin that's not doing a whole lot. Basically no skill you can cross class at low level makes a difference, but lacking protect causes unnecessary stress, so why knowingly doing that when nothing makes any real difference?

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In three mob packs, you should be fitting in two Aero's, with two mobs you'll get one. That's a 120-240 potency increase on every pull. It's almost as much as getting an extra Energy Drain every pull. What doesn't make a difference is how much Protect mitigates. Eos is capable of healing, and if you're forced to heal, having Protect or not won't change that you only need one Physick to bring the tank from 50% to topped, at which point you can go back to DPS'ing. I'm not sure what unecessary stress you're experiencing, you can be partied with a first time tank in Sastasha or Tam-Tara, mobs bouncing everywhere, and still heal and DPS because the damage is so trivial.

I just can't see any reason not to have protect.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

I'm not sure what unecessary stress you're experiencing, you can be partied with a first time tank in Sastasha or Tam-Tara, mobs bouncing everywhere, and still heal and DPS because the damage is so trivial.

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Unnecessary stress is not on the healer it's on the general party expectations. You've got people quitting a group cause the healer doesn't have protect, and people in this topic with the tired old "you can't tell me what to do" garbage and all that. All that so a healer can cast aero and end a run 30 seconds faster. Well that was sure worth all the arguing.

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Originally Posted by finders

I just can't see any reason not to have protect.

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What about the notion that more dps mitigates more damage than protect does, at least in these low level dungeons?

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Roxas pick highest dung???? Have you done leveling que much it is mainly picks up on someone qued for a specific dungeon (you need to be of minim level), aslo in no way should you need to be over geared and leveled for a dungeon (people usually level through and gear up with dungeons), not sure what you mean thou so might be just confusion.

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What I meant was: If you're a healer Lv 46, you should queue for Dzemael Darkhold (Lv 44 dungeon) if you're trying to level up. If you queue in Duty Finder for Leveling Roulette, the Duty Finder will pick a random dungeon between Lv 15 and Lv 44 for you to enter (IMO, DF picks the highest dungeon level possible). Imagine that the first tank that queues up is level 31. The Duty finder will throw you probably in Haukke Manor (Lv 28 Dungeon) if he didn't choose a specific dungeon. If he did chose another dungeon, like Toto-Rak (Lv 24), you'll be thrown in Toto-Rak alongside your party.

In this case, either your tank is farming some specific thing (meaning he needs equipment Lv 24) or he is undergeared for Haukke and isn't able to complete it as he is. Anyway, you should use protect instead of don't, because your tank (or any other party member you could use in this example) will need it. I repeat that you should cast protect at the start of the dungeon, than switch it to another useful skill, you will optimize your skills like this.

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Originally Posted by finders

I just can't see any reason not to have protect.

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Fear of hexagons.

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In all seriousness, if you have Protect and they want it, just give it. It's just an additional 1 min added to the dungeon (which is trivial in my opinion) when you swap between skills.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

Fear of hexagons.

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Hey, please don't joke about Hexaphobia, it's very serious to me.

:D

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I have every right to ask people to perform to their fullest in a multiplayer game, regardless of whether I'm paying for their sub or not. If you find that unreasonable, maybe you should stick to playing single player games.

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And they have every right not to follow any cookie-cutters, or 'orders' or aks by other players.

I complain that everyone is trying to speed run everything. Let's take the time to enjoy the game. we have 90min to complete a dungeon, no need to rush, everyone will be safe and done.

People leave for little things.. I'd say you try, you fail, you adjust and try again, if not, then you can receive suggestions, and if you try and fail again.. well.. you get kicked and try with another PuG, becoming better and better everytime you fail.

If you are lucky, you are in a good FC or play with friends. They won't mind a few mistakes, which is perfectly ok when playing a GAME.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

I complain that everyone is trying to speed run everything.

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This is actually why I dread running "farm content" or easy content in general.

At least when things are hard, people seem to tolerate you just doing your job well. But once they're in a setting that's easy/farmable/etc, everything starts revolving around all these little personal preferences and such based entirely on impatience.

I tanked Brayflox HM for the first time the other day, and while it's horribly easy of course, it was a bit of a nightmare. Just everyone in the group telling me that over there was the best spot to pull the mobs, and someone else saying that over here was a better spot, and oh god tank what is your problem why did you pull that, we can skip it you idiot, and come on hurry up and blah blah. ><

Felt like 2.0 AK/WP all over again, and I hated that too.

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

Felt like 2.0 AK/WP all over again, and I hated that too.

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They put hard limits on pulls in the new content so it's never going to be like the nonsense of the past farm content.

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

Hey, please don't joke about Hexaphobia, it's very serious to me.

:D

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*Hug* It's okay, as long as its not what we're trying to avoid (trypophobia) ;_; It gives me the nastiest goosebumps. Argh.

EDIT: Just because I absolutely forgot that some people don't know what trypophobia is... It's essentially a series of circular shapes (or even hexagons) with indents and whatnots. It's not very pleasing to look at, especially on google. But if you're still curious, the nicest description I can give you is it looks like a series of honeycombs together, creating a sense that there are a lot of holes. Google will provide not-so-nice images with nasty photoshopped zombie-like colour-schemes, so... Google at your own risk >3< (SORRY BOVINITY!)

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

They put hard limits on pulls in the new content so it's never going to be like the nonsense of the past farm content.

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Well, that's good.

I love tanking but I also hate tanking sometimes. Seems like everyone's a damn critic. (Though just as often people throw praise at you without much reason, too)

Which is understandable, I guess. You set the pace of the run, you sorta set the strategies and whatnot, and not everyone will agree with how you do those things. Still, sometimes I just can't bring myself to queue as a tank because I'm not in the mood for it. :D

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Originally Posted by Parawill

*Hug* It's okay, as long as its not what we're trying to avoid (trypophobia) ;_; It gives me the nastiest goosebumps. Argh.

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*googles trypophobia*

Ew...those photoshops. Ew.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Unnecessary stress is not on the healer it's on the general party expectations. You've got people quitting a group cause the healer doesn't have protect, and people in this topic with the tired old "you can't tell me what to do" garbage and all that. All that so a healer can cast aero and end a run 30 seconds faster. Well that was sure worth all the arguing.

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It's a low level dungeon, not cutting edge content. Do I get upset when PLD's aren't using Foresight or Bloodbath in Sastasha even though they have the cross class slot for it? Absolutely not, it doesn't even occur to me to suggest it to them. How do you think a healer would feel if, as a tank, I told them to swap out Protect and cross class Cleric Stance and start DPS'ing? They'd probably tell me to kick rocks, and they'll play how they want to play. I feel that the healer is a unique position allowing it to provide DPS when it's not being taxed by it's responsibilities, and that not even attempting to do so is fairly lazy. However, I keep that to myself when I see a healer idling to the side during battles. It's not my business so long as their role is being fulfilled. Just like how I prefer my own style, and expect that it's at least respected. Good DPS healers DPS without endangering the party, which is very much a fulfillment of their role as a healer, and is done with measured, calculated risk.

As far as the party's expectations, you don't know what they expect. It's a pug. At low levels, it's entirely possible they've never had a DPS healer before, they'd have no notion of what that expectation entails. A healer's job is to sustain the party until the completion of an encounter. One school of thought is to use DPS, making that encounter shorter, reducing the amount of damage that is taken overall, which requires less healing to be done. Another approach is to mitigate damage preemptively, done through using Protect, Stoneskin, and other mitigative abilities. Does either method fail? No, not unless the healer fails. The defensive approach is safer, but it's like putting up a safety net while you're trying to balance on the curb. Even if you fall, you're not going to get hurt. I'm talking strictly low level here.

Still, the mentality behind each approach is fundamentally different. If you (the player) feel you didn't perform your role to your maximum potential because you didn't apply every buff available to you, then get off your butt and do so. Some players dig a healer like that. If you feel like you have a lot of downtime, throw some DPS out there. Things die faster, and you'll Always Be Casting. Some players dig a healer like that. The party will adapt to your playstyle, just like how you'll adjust your playstyle to fit each party. It's a shame for people to get hung up on something like cross class skills, what qualifies a good healer is much more than that. Healers that are alert, able to predict damage, both avoidable and unavoidable, and have good decision making skills will be a strong healer to have in your party, the order of their cross class skills be damned.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

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I don't get what you're not understanding about this. In a low level dungeon all your cross class options has virtually no impact on the pace of the dungeon. Why sit and argue and quarrel with everyone over one cross class skill that's just kind of expected whether or not it makes any difference? It just seems so silly to sit there and stomp your feel saying "no, i'm not casting protect, i'm casting aero."

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I don't get what you're not understanding about this. In a low level dungeon all your cross class options has virtually no impact on the pace of the dungeon. Why sit and argue and quarrel with everyone over one cross class skill that's just kind of expected whether or not it makes any difference? It just seems so silly to sit there and stomp your feel saying "no, i'm not casting protect, i'm casting aero."

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Well that goes both ways, then. If it's such a non-factor, then why make a big deal over which spell he's using? If it's such a non-factor, why are they the one expected to do what other people want him to do when they stomp their feet over it?

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I don't get what you're not understanding about this. In a low level dungeon all your cross class options has virtually no impact on the pace of the dungeon. Why sit and argue and quarrel with everyone over one cross class skill that's just kind of expected whether or not it makes any difference? It just seems so silly to sit there and stomp your feel saying "no, i'm not casting protect, i'm casting aero."

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I don't get resistance from the groups I'm in. I tell them I'm set up for DPS, they say ok, and we run. This happens every time. I've had maybe four instances where someone asks again, at which point I say, "Absolutely, mind waiting a minute for my skills to cool down?" then we run. It's a non-issue every run.

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

Well that goes both ways, then. If it's such a non-factor, then why make a big deal over which spell he's using?

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Because you can't control what other people do. When you're not casting protect there will eventually be someone that comes along and make a big deal out of it. Is the person stupid? Sure, but is it really worth fighting over? No. I'm not suggesting these people are justified, just that it's not worth the hassle. If someone's fun is ruined because they couldn't cast aero in copperbell there's something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Because you can't control what other people do. When you're not casting protect there will eventually be someone that comes along and make a big deal out of it. Is the person stupid? Sure, but is it really worth fighting over? No. I'm not suggesting these people are justified, just that it's not worth the hassle. If someone's fun is ruined because they couldn't cast aero in copperbell there's something wrong.

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Eh, I really don't see the value in (or like the idea of) ceding everything to other people just because they'll raise a fuss over it. They're the ones making waves and disrupting the group, ought we all not simply be telling them that they're the unreasonable one?

It is interesting to me though. In many areas of life it seems to be this way...someone can raise a fuss over something and expect you to change or do something according to their will, but if you refuse, people make it seem like you're the unreasonable one.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

I don't get resistance from the groups I'm in. I tell them I'm set up for DPS, they say ok, and we run. This happens every time. I've had maybe four instances where someone asks again, at which point I say, "Absolutely, mind waiting a minute for my skills to cool down?" then we run. It's a non-issue every run.

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Heh, I had a nice fellow in Halatali last night inform me that "Cleric Stance is only for soloing."

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

Eh, I really don't see the value in (or like the idea of) ceding everything to other people just because they'll raise a fuss over it. They're the ones making waves and disrupting the group, ought we all not simply be telling them that they're the unreasonable one?

It is interesting to me though. In many areas of life it seems to be this way...someone can raise a fuss over something and expect you to change or do something according to their will, but if you refuse, people make it seem like you're the unreasonable one.



Heh, I had a nice fellow in Halatali last night inform me that "Cleric Stance is only for soloing."

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Just because someone else is being difficult, that doesn't give you the ok to be the same way. In this case if you talk back to them, you're just making the waves bigger. It's often just easier to let it go. So if it all goes away with one cast of one skill, then the more mature thing to do would be to just cast the skill and get on with it. Learn to pick your battles. Sometimes you don't need to be right and it's just better to relax and make everyone happy. Only children feel like they have to "win" everything.

Threads like this make me feel like none of you have jobs in the real world. Do you talk to your coworkers at the office like that? Stamping your feet and telling them their unreasonable last minute request is not how things are done around here and to just deal with it? No, you suck it up, do the work to make everyone happy, and get on with your day without getting upset.

And honestly, if you handle it well and with a smile, they'll thank you and love you for it. MMORPG players are the same way. Grow up and just be nice.

If you can't handle healing without protect slot it first, if you don't suck slot it later. Like I said earlier I have it slotted as my 50 skill. I find stoneskin to be much more helpful on the initial pull which is when getting your dots out matters most.

To the people saying protect is more mitigation then stoneskin at the 40 dungeon point, think about it like this. Math wise the rough estimate for protect mitigation is 5% mitigation, meaning in one whole hp bar of the tank it stops 5% of that, so the tank needs to go through their entire hp bar twice before protect overtakes stoneskin, and more than likely no matter which one you slot you will have stopped dpsing to heal before that happens.

However stoneskin being frontloaded allows you to mitigate all that damage at the beginning and hopefully provide enough extra dps to get 1 mob dead. Which in a 4 pull becomes 25% more mitigation and in a 3 pull 33% more mitigation which are both substantially more than the 5% of protect.

Edit: Just spent 10 minutes testing this out to try and find the actual values, pulled a few mobs and let them beat on me for 5 mins both with/without protect average hit difference of the mobs was only 3%, I'm at i187 though as pally so protect doesn't raise my defense as high percentage wise as someone in low level gear. About to try it on sch as I can let the test go on longer thanks to heals not taking 35% of my mp. But essentially what it tells me is that if your tank is not level synced protect would probably be a good idea, however if they are it is unnecessary and stoneskin would be far better.

Edit 2: After 2, 10 min intervals of mobs beating on sch with/without protect the results are inconclusive due to RNG, average damage per hit was 0.1% difference. Don't know what to say about it exactly, also noticed something else, protect seems to give exactly 13% more defense, I had always previously thought it was a set number based on caster level, but it adds 13% more to both my pally and my sch. This actually leads me to think that it doesn't matter if the tank is level synced or not the damage difference is going to be minimal. I'm glad I have stoneskin slotted before protect because it doesn't seem to do a whole lot at all. If it is 3% then the tank needs to take 333% of their hp bar before protect beats out stoneskin for healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

Eh, I really don't see the value in (or like the idea of) ceding everything to other people just because they'll raise a fuss over it. They're the ones making waves and disrupting the group, ought we all not simply be telling them that they're the unreasonable one?

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Honestly both are being quite petty when you get right down to it. Lets honestly step back for a moment and look at what's going on, we're seriously arguing about cross class skills in dungeons where the most dangerous enemy is boredom and mobs die to a sneeze. What ever would we do without that uber aero dps or 10% reduction on 20 damage hits.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

So if it all goes away with one cast of one skill, then the more mature thing to do would be to just cast the skill and get on with it. Learn to pick your battles. Sometimes you don't need to be right and it's just better to relax and make everyone happy. Only children feel like they have to "win" everything.

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It's not a matter of "winning", but I really dislike the concept that if someone is a jerk and wants to push us around, we should just let them have their way.

Even when it's just small, trivial things, it's a behavior that we should discourage, not encourage by always "being mature" and folding to them just because they got pushy about it. That's pretty much what jerks and bullies in all walks of life count on: that people will just always back down and give them their way.

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

It's not a matter of "winning", but I really dislike the concept that if someone is a jerk and wants to push us around, we should just let them have their way.

Even when it's just small, trivial things, it's a behavior that we should discourage, not encourage by always "being mature" and folding to them just because they got pushy about it. That's pretty much what jerks and bullies in all walks of life count on: that people will just always back down and give them their way.

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Asking if they can have Protect is not being a jerk. It's a perfectly reasonable request.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Asking if they can have Protect is not being a jerk. It's a perfectly reasonable request.

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It is when they'll go so far as leave the group altogether when the healer won't give in to them and they don't get their way. At that point it's clearly not just innocently "asking".

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Originally Posted by Bovinity

It is when they'll go so far as leave the group altogether when the healer won't give in to them and they don't get their way. At that point it's clearly not just innocently "asking".

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Right he asked and the healer stomped his feet, so the tank stomped back. They're both guilty here. But he starts out by merely asking a question, which could have gotten an equally simple response.

Easy response "Sorry I don't have it slotted since at this level my dps can make much more of a difference than protect, however if you want to wait 1 minute for cooldowns I can cross class it then cross class it back, if not then just trust me, you will be fine."

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Right he asked and the healer stomped his feet, so the tank stomped back. They're both guilty here. But he starts out by merely asking a question, which could have gotten an equally simple response.

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Saying that you don't have Protect slotted is not "stomping your feet".

It seems like you're trying to create some equivalence here where none exists. Everyone could have just zoned in and ran the instance and things would have been fine. The tank could have simply said "Oh, ok" and ran the instance and things would have been fine. Instead, he chose to make an issue of it and quit. The healer in this equation is not at fault for anything whatsoever.

I use the same order as Gideon. Sometimes I consider swapping Protect and Cleric Stance just because not having Protect (even at low levels were the fairy can solo heal no problem) really seems to unnerve people.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Easy response "Sorry I don't have it slotted since at this level my dps can make much more of a difference than protect, however if you want to wait 1 minute for cooldowns I can cross class it then cross class it back, if not then just trust me, you will be fine."

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Agreed, something as simple as this would alleviate anyone's concerns. If the tank wanted it, then right there you've just offered it to him and the healer can go back to slotting whatever else he wants after that.

Easy solution slot it, cast it, switch it out. Is it completely necessary? No but why not? Also how many of you have had some bad brayflox NM runs? Getting that with some fresh players can be rough. Protect can be very helpful if your tank is under geared and under experienced.

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Protect should be in the first slot, always. Cleric Stance should never be the first. Blizzard II is only useful for FATE's and is general worthless in all content.

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Everything you said here is wrong.

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Asking if they can have Protect is not being a jerk. It's a perfectly reasonable request.

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It is somewhat reasonable, but if you're stopping the run to ask a non-WHM for Protect before maybe... level 30, it does demonstrate your lack of knowledge of how the cross class skills work, and how much you overestimate Protect's contribution in early dungeons.. Not everyone will put it in their first slot, nor should they necessarily.

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Easy solution slot it, cast it, switch it out.

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This is not what I'd call an "easy solution". For one, I guarantee I would forget to do this before every low level dungeon because *it just doesn't matter*, and two, having to do it twice after entering the dungeon is a lot of ability downtime.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

This is not what I'd call an "easy solution". For one, I guarantee I would forget to do this before every low level dungeon because *it just doesn't matter*, and two, having to do it twice after entering the dungeon is a lot of ability downtime.

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/shrug I wouldn't leave because of it but I'd always have level appropriate gear and I'm not learning a role. It is easy though... If someone told me to put up protect I'd damn well switch it out and make them wait as a matter of course. :-p I'd also be laughing on my end b/c yes in most cases it isn't necessary. (At brayflox level I have it slotted though. I don't trust new tanks in there and I already have cleric stance and swiftcast)

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If someone told me to put up protect I'd damn well switch it out and make them wait as a matter of course.

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You're funny if you think groups nowadays will wait.