PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

If a party rejects a tank class because of the DPS it does, the party sucks big time and wants to blame its lack of skill and DPS on the tank. That is all I'm going to say.

No, with Storm's Eye PLD isn't that far behind WAR (870-900 dps vs 950+), which is more than enough. You SHOULDN'T do the same DPS as WAR/DRK, that's the price you pay for wanting to be the tank with the best mitigation.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

You have zero idea what you're talking about. The mitigation a DRK brings is nothing compared to what a PLD can do unless there's a lot of magic damage, and specifically a magical tank buster. How many groups do you see taking a DRK into savage A2? Not many, because everything's physical in there, meaning DRK's mitigation in vastly inferior to PLD's. The way things are now is fine, with PLDs being brought when more physical mitigation is needed and DRKs when more magical mitigation or damage is needed.

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There is plenty of magic damage in a2 lol.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Hallowed ground. That is all

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Hallowed is actually inferior to living dead in terms of freedom left to the healer. Hallowed is only a 10 second buff whereas living/walking dead has a maximum uptime of 20. So saying "pld is best cus hallowed" isn't really that solid an argument.

Help SE, I don't know how to play my class. Please nerf all the others so I look less bad in comparison.

well, the issue I see with paladins have the best mitigation is that, it doesn't seem that it is really needed to beat any bosses in savage. you can get by with drk/war and have the extra dps to push new content. granted those who are getting thru with less tank mitigation are the best players in the world. the majority of us will start clearing in a month or so with all the gear we get and weapon upgrades and it will be a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

Hallowed is actually inferior to living dead in terms of freedom left to the healer. Hallowed is only a 10 second buff whereas living/walking dead has a maximum uptime of 20. So saying "pld is best cus hallowed" isn't really that solid an argument.

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20 sec? u kidding me right?
oh dont forget the auto death bcause not 100% HP... compared than invul all attack and ur HP stay in 100%...

The only real issue PLD has right now is that Alexander Savage encounter design so far hasn't favoured them since every tankbuster seems to be magical damage, rendering Sheltron quite useless. If A4S is anything like normal though, a lot of the damage is entirely unaspected which might not benefit DRKs as much as, say, A1S did.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

Hallowed is actually inferior to living dead in terms of freedom left to the healer. Hallowed is only a 10 second buff whereas living/walking dead has a maximum uptime of 20. So saying "pld is best cus hallowed" isn't really that solid an argument.

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Living Dead being able to have this mythical 20 seconds of functional time would be under absolute perfect circumstances that will virtually never happen.

For it to happen, the DRK would have to pop it and then as the final second is ticking down they hit 0 HP, activating Walking Dead and then the healer waiting and timing their heals so that the final heal to hit that 100% DRK HP healed requisite happens as the final second is ticking down and all that is assuming that there is zero server/client delay or lag.

That seems way more restrictive on healers in order to be achieved than just not having to worry about the tank for about 10 seconds.

Ideally in a virtually perfect scenario you could hope for 18 seconds of functional uptime at most and even that is pretty much never going to happen. Most likely you are going to see more like on average probably around 10-12 seconds of uptime that has a hard-line healing requirement that results in instant death if not met as well as still being able to take damage just not die.

Hallowed Ground is by far the best super anti-death defensive CD amongst the three tanks and is one of the most powerful tools in a PLD's kit if not the most powerful.

One would things think with the base word being shell in sheltron it would have some magic mit involved, especially since in the HW new ability trailer I beleive the pld used it to stop fire dmg... I think, I don't remember exactly lol

I wish they would buff NIN heals.

Paladin single target damage in Sword Oath really isn't that far behind the other two. It's probably fine as it is. I wouldn't cry if they received a small boost in Shield Oath, and they could stand to gain some AoE damage.

If paladin aggro was adjusted to compensate for their lower damage, both in sword oath and shield oath, id be fine with lower damage.
If paladins actually got the mitigation tools people imagine they get in exchange for lower dps, id be fine with lower damage.

Right now the War and DRK kit are better at mitigating and tanking the bosses as designed. Paladins were great around the idea of tank swaps, blowing your cds on a big hit, bulwarking through small ones, then tagging out. That does not really happen right now--and having access to your mitigators more often is far more important then 10% extra on your 3 minute cd, or bulwark being a bit more effective than dark dance while also lasting 5 less seconds and having three times the cool down.


The 'myth' that paladins mitigate the best really does not hold water when the relevant busters are all magic there by ignoring your extra tools like sheltron, and when the physical encounters are easy enough that these tools are largely irrelevant (or by virtue of them not having a physical buster where it makes an impact).

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

Paladin single target damage in Sword Oath really isn't that far behind the other two. It's probably fine as it is. I wouldn't cry if they received a small boost in Shield Oath, and they could stand to gain some AoE damage.

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You are misinformed. The single target is behind a comfortable 150-170 vs a dark and almost twice that to a warrior. That is a significant difference in savage where dps checks are common. 150 dps is the difference between killing faust in time or breaking to the enrage.

Or lets put it into perspective this way. The world first A3 main tank paladin has been a paladin throughout all the content thus far, but had to swap to dark to get them the world first clear, because as a paladin they simply ---could not--- kill it before enrage.

Meanwhile, was it just fine to heal the dark as a main tank? Yep!

I get that all the busters are magic , but how does Sentinel x Rampart not shut this argument down ?

even in AS1 you would be able to Sentinel x Rampart twice on the ''magic buster'' and HG the one inbetween.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

I get that all the busters are magic , but how does Sentinel x Rampart not shut this argument down ?

even in AS1 you would be able to Sentinel x Rampart twice on the ''magic buster'' and HG the one inbetween.

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Because neither other tank has to use their anti death tool (let alone one with a 7 minute cd---hopefully you dont whipe and have to make everyone wait) to do it.


A warrior can have IB and vengeance up for each one (pop it at the start of the first cast, and itll be up half way through the second, and again near the end of the third cast) for 20%/30% reduction---then pop your parry buff (available for each buster) and both self heals (available for each buster). Each time the boss also had a -10% buff on.

A DRK can pop either of their cds and dark mind for 20/30 or 30/30 mitigation, have a buffed soul eater ready to heal immediately after wards. Each time the boss had a -10% buff on, and maybe another 10% if you were lucky with reprisal and autos. Dark Dance isnt significant over all, but you can pop it before hand to force the reprisal.

Which basically gets down to--the other tanks do fine actually mitigating and dealing with the mechanics as is.

A Paladin needs to use hallowed ground as part of their kit instead of as an emergency 7 minute cooldown power....which is kind of the issue with Paladin. Your class has basically become "I have hallowed ground---I'm relevant".

Wait, Warriors are doing over 1k dps? And that isn't a concern to real dps classes?

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Wait, Warriors are doing over 1k dps? And that isn't a concern to real dps classes?

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Because they aren't taking up a slot as DPS. Still doesn't justify the huge difference in damage between tanks

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Because they aren't taking up a slot as DPS. Still doesn't justify the huge difference in damage between tanks

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I know... Still seems kind of sad that Warriors can be beat the actual dps classes or at least give them a run for their money.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I know... Still seems kind of sad that Warriors can be beat the actual dps classes or at least give them a run for their money.

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To put that into perspective, our Summoners (Our BLM switches for that fight) do 1700-1800 DPS in A2S, and our bard does ~1300. The fight is almost constant AoE with no downtime, and there is a stacking vulnerability mechanic.

Our Monk drives the gobwalker in the second half of the fight, so his DPS is pretty inconsequential.

I don't remember our Scholar's numbers, but they're pretty high up there.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

The world first A3 main tank paladin has been a paladin throughout all the content thus far, but had to swap to dark to get them the world first clear, because as a paladin they simply ---could not--- kill it before enrage.

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The reason they swapped from PLD to DRK was because they changed out some of their other classes and ended up dropping Monk. They swapped to DRK to maintain the -10% int debuff. I'll grant that the extra DPS that DRK provides certainly didn't hurt, but it wasn't necessary to secure a kill this week. The tank damage for most of the fight is also not particularly dangerous, so yeah, it's no problem to keep any of the tanks up here (Other than when vuln is getting stacked on them) and when incoming damage is low there's not much reason to bring a Paladin over the other two.

However, the gap between the tanks in terms of DPS just isn't nearly as large as you're claiming here. I was seeing 800-850 dummy parses from Paladins in ilvl180 gear. That's maybe 70 behind DRK and 150 behind Warrior. With the Slashing Vulnerability debuff, the gap gets pretty small.

In Shield Oath, their damage could use a bit of a boost, or at least a threat boost so they can fit in more RAs. It would also be nice if they could at least put out *some* AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

To put that into perspective, our Summoners (Our BLM switches for that fight) do 1700-1800 DPS in A2S, and our bard does ~1300. The fight is almost constant AoE with no downtime, and there is a stacking vulnerability mechanic.

Our Monk drives the gobwalker in the second half of the fight, so his DPS is pretty inconsequential.

I don't remember our Scholar's numbers, but they're pretty high up there.

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True, that's aoe. Even with only my 180 weapon I can hit about 1.5-2k on AoE with my MCH. But I thought we were speaking of single target.

What PLD needs the most IMO is mostly major QoL changes that would also happen to positively impact its DPS, the 2 relevant to this conversation being:
- Oaths removed from the GCD. Have them not break combos so PLD can switch more easily from Defense to Offense.
- Make Shield Swipe an oGCD (while probably rebalancing its potency or it'd be absurdly OP). It makes 0 sense to have such a proc/counter on the GCD. It would bridge the gap with the other tanks in the DPS while tanking department and would make Bulwark and Sheltron semi-offensive CDs.

Bonus: add an AoE shield swipe-like action that works the same to give PLD some AoE oomph. Could even modify (and re-balance) Circle of Scorn to fill that function. Basically give PLD something akin to Bloodletter/3.0 Rain of Death.

Let's call this game, "Final Fantasy XIV: DPS Forever".

On a serious note, it seems that many people want EVERY job to be a DPS before their main role. I personally see nothing wrong with the game having a defensive-focused tank, and offensive-focused tank, and a MP-based tank. After a while, folks are going to make people feel bad by forcing them to focus tanking and putting greater focus on being a DPS.

I like my PLD for what it does, not what I SHOULD make it do. Learned that lesson a long time ago with WHM.

good thing your job as a tank isn't to do DPS

who cares what WF players had to do to get a kill? You will never play at that level. In fact, you will probably never play on a level where the difference matters. When you WF or SF, you do what you have to do to get shit done. Your FC probably doesn't even have a competitive ranking.

It's like Shiva Extreme. Yeah some people decided to 1 tank it. But why, so she would die 8 seconds faster? LOL

stop worrying about things that don't matter

I think Those numbers are right were they should be IMO been tanking since 1.0 and paladins get better defensive cool downs then both and can parry and block. think about it this way sure as a paladin you do less dps then the other two tanks right but raids have tight dps checks right now hang with me hear say a warrior is in a raid pulling 1k dps but requires the healers to pay alot of attention and heal constantly thats fine bc the warrior helps them pass the dps check now say same thing for pally but pally is doing less damage but also taking less damage allowing healers to fit in dps which even out to the same as the warrior run since they dont have to focus on you so much I feel this balances out again this is just my opinion

Meh the real issue with Paladin DPS is this; we have one offensive buff and it has a 90second recast - and our DPS stance doesn't increase our damage it just adds an additional 50 potency strike per auto-attack.

Toss 5% damage increase on Sword Oath, and either significantly reduce the recast on Fight or Flight - or add a 5% damage bonus applied with Royal Authority.

This would easily bring Paladin closer in line with Dark Knight.

As for Paladin's mitigation potential - this is negligible at best depending on the fight. Clemency specifically can be problematic in practice.

I'd rather let the WARs take the burst glory. Sword Oath is fine. Just give us more swords with even faster aa delay to compensate our no extra damage from maim and darkside.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

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Actually it's the inability to hold hate off the increased DPS that DPS puts out while in SWo, while DRK and WAR can hold hate outside of their tank stance. Hate generation needs to be heighten considerably which in turn would allow for us to spam RA more. Having to be in Shield Oath and consistently using RoH instead of RA cuts damage back by a good chunk. Increase in general damage however wouldn't be so bad.

But in the end it really doesn't matter as most of the arguments made are being made for groups that are optimizing to their fullest potential. When in reality any job composition can clear the content and will become easier as gear is obtained from the new weekly currency.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Let's call this game, "Final Fantasy XIV: DPS Forever".

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Considering that the main objective of any battle is to kill the foe. DPS forever seems like a fitting title. Because if you're not curing, might as well kill the thing trying to kill you. Unless you're trying to save MP for a O-shit moment due to lack of knowledge of the fight, then holding back is probably a good idea.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

Hallowed is actually inferior to living dead in terms of freedom left to the healer. Hallowed is only a 10 second buff whereas living/walking dead has a maximum uptime of 20. So saying "pld is best cus hallowed" isn't really that solid an argument.

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That explains why most healers prefer Drks NOT use living dead because of the stress it causes. Hallowed inferior funny.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Clemency specifically can be problematic in practice.

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I think PLD dps is pretty good atm but it is the utility that needs some minor tweaks, Clemency is awesome but the cast-time is killer as you will get out-casted by healers 99% of time. 1.5-2s cast-time for Clemency would be ideal so your heals wont get wasted and you could get yourself up faster after tankbusters. Also Divine Veil needs something as atm its CD that you have no control over it and its totally up to healers to proc it and if they miss its GG.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

I find it funny how a dark is denying the facts that pld is not even an mt or ot option to all end game statics anymore as current bis set ups are dark mt war ot.

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Actually no, current best setup is War MT and Pld OT.

Drk is a selfish tank that brings nothing worth value to the group, more so if the group has a Monk.

War has the highest MT damage and easiest time stance swapping. Pld and Drk can compete in damage as OT, but Pld brings more utility, and the ONLY str debuff in the game. Paladin is even better off on TP than Drk is, even if only by 40 seconds or so.

You probably wouldn't know this though, the jealousy for Drk is strong.

I remember a time long ago, probably before the person above me was even born, where a tank was a tank, it didn't matter what it "brings". Just there to soak up damage while others create it and not get killed in the process.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

I remember a time long ago, probably before the person above me was even born, where a tank was a tank, it didn't matter what it "brings". Just there to soak up damage while others create it and not get killed in the process.

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Hiding insults only shows you're not as old as you're claiming to be. Whether mentally or physically.

Might want to hop off the "I remember" nostalgia and get with the times. Tanks are more than meat shields who just sit there to soak hits now.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

I remember a time long ago, probably before the person above me was even born, where a tank was a tank, it didn't matter what it "brings". Just there to soak up damage while others create it and not get killed in the process.

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You must be the only one. Dps and healers I see don't seem to be of the same opinion.

Lucerzia just announced their MT had to do 650 DPS to clear A3S. OT did 800.

That's a lot of SwOing for a PLD but doable with good healers.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Lucerzia just announced their MT had to do 650 DPS to clear A3S. OT did 800.

That's a lot of SwOing for a PLD but doable with good healers.

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By now it should be a bit easier, seeing as Paladins can get their Esoteric weapon already.

They're still better suited as the OT however, in place of a good War MT until gear progresses a little more. You'll get the most out of both positions up until the last phase, where both tanks will be on and off with holding the boss.

I don't think DPS is the only thing, it's just 1 variable in the metric. I think the frustration though has to do with combat meta - which devalues PLD currently and empowers DRK due to magic tank busters (but could easily become a shoe-on-the-other-foot scenario in future content), & a reliance on slashing debuff via WAR or NIN - since PLD strength is suppose to be better mitigation for more Healer DPS - this concept doesn't work.


The Magic Tanker VS Physical Tanker dynamic has me a little worried. DRK should have an advantage with magical, PLD with advantage with Physical, but those trade-offs IMO shouldn't be too drastic. (should be just 1 cd like like so: Dark Mind VS permanent shield + Bulwark). Meanwhile WAR is over here IBing & SPathing everything not giving 2 fucks. Also Int Down VS Str Down VS SPath seems like another paradigm empowering this dynamic. The analogy I'd use for all this would be:

A Dark Knight, a Warrior, and a Paladin sit at a table with a jar of cookies.

The Dark Knight takes a cookie from the jar.

The Warrior takes the jar,

then tells the Paladin, "The DRK is eating yours."

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I'd like to see PLD have INT Down instead of DRK. That way mainStat reduction debuffs are their 'thing.' DRK gets Rend Mind & Rend Weapon equivalents via Power Slash & Delirium. WAR still has SPath - which is the best of the bunch, and more easily administered and upkept. But at least with this route any tank duo can stack mitigation debuffs thus making viable MT/OT compositions.

Sorry for the derail. but IMO filling these gaps in mitigation debuffs for OT/MT roles are the elephants in the room.

100% agree Xeno.

The other thing almost never mentioned is part of the reason Elysium went with a DRK MT was so they could swap out their MNK for a NIN. It was a net gain from a two position move and not just to get rid of the PLD. Once the normal raiding world gets to A3S MNK and PLD will be viable. There is actually a lot of Physical damage in A3.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

That explains why most healers prefer Drks NOT use living dead because of the stress it causes. Hallowed inferior funny.

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The mere fact that LD proc'ed is already something. I say screw them. I'm still going to use it no matter what. I used it because i've forseen what will happen.

Hallowed Ground is and will never be replaced as the best defensive cooldown in he game.