Defilberating the Dead Horse

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Has the parsing been done to determine the new stat weights? That's one of the things I've been waiting to see ...

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DRG stat weights, per this post, indicate ratios between 1:6 and 1:10. There will be variance from one job to another, obviously, but nothing like the 1:3 we were seeing in 2.x.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

There is a difference between saying the system has it's flaws and the extreme over-dramatization you and others are using. The so called people you claim are defending it are actually not defending it in the way you imply as there is not a single one including myself who claims the system is either perfect of not in need of fixing. But what the more reasonable, rational and sensible people whom you claim are defending it are trying to do is separate the bullshit hyperbole and exaggerations from the actual facts. Hyperbole like there is no fun to be had, no money to be made, crafting is dead, no one is crafting, economy is destroyed, everyone agrees with you unless they are stupid or trolls, also my personal favorite coming directly from you...that SE is paying me to argue with you. You need to take a step back and regain some self control especially over your emotions and then apply some common sense to the issues and the possible solutions.

Seyb has it right, your not stating facts with such comments like you made earlier in this thread though I personally think he does not go far enough in that your not only stating your opinion but your exaggerating that opinion because you think it adds more weight to your arguments perhaps unaware your making it hyperbolic. The fact is SE will not make knee jerk reactions and dramatic changes just because you choose to over-dramatize the issues. They will do as I said earlier which is make minor adjustments and slight balancing alterations over time until they are happy with the outcome like they always have done in the past and they will take their time to evaluate the situation instead of making knee jerk reactions to the hyperbole being spread around these forums by some here. They certainly wont fire someone over the introduction of red scripts which one of your friends has asked them to do plus it is so unlikely that SE will do another drastic Crafting Reborn type thing before the next expansion comes out so pinning your hopes on such would not work out well.

Adjustments and balancing of skills usefulness, timer adjustments maybe, minor cap rate rise, lowering cost of materials from red scripts etc are the sort of things SE will be looking at plus over time increasing the amount of recipes for each craft...not removal of the red script system or removal of the existence of a cap rate and not adding BiS recipes to crafting as SE have been pretty clear about their stance on that for quite some time. So if you hope for one of those three latter things which I know for a fact you do since have said as much in other threads then you should adjust your expectations else I have a very strong feeling your going to be permanently disappointed. You also actually have a better chance of SE listening to you if you drop the hyperbole, exaggerations and over-dramatization of the issues...they will want actual facts and monitoring of in-game data plus reasonable, sensible and rational ideas and as such our not doing your cause any justice due to how your expressing your concerns.

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Is there a new forum achievement for using the term hyperbole 1000 times or something? xD

I've been reading this thread and I am just laughing my ass off at someone trying to hold gil over scarebearz's head.

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Originally Posted by DarthBuzzer

Alright, here's a generic message because I'm getting tired of repeating stuff.

Anyone who defends this system is either thick in the head, completely uninformed, or a troll. Fact. If you are defending, you are one of those three.

There is no fun to be had.
There is no money to be made.
There is only the grind to craft useless gear that will never sell.

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Posts like this are the worst, Saying "There is no fun to be had" is just dumb, The system that is Crafting has not changed at all, we use 90% of the same skills we used in 2.XX, The only thing that has changed is profitability, If you think crafting currently is not fun. Guess what YOU NEVER ENJOYED CRAFTING, You Sir enjoyed making money.

Crafting and Making money are not the same thing. So don't confuse the two things when you try to explain your problems.
You are entitled to Lament the lack of opportunity to make money, I think it is reasonable to do so, But please focus your point on your real problems.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

Crafting and Making money are not the same thing. So don't confuse the two things when you try to explain your problems.

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Some like the challange of crafting new harder crafts for people, if hardly anyone can get the mats due to cost, then it is no fun.

Apart from the new 2* crafts, the other stuff is pretty much all macro-able and no challange at all.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

Posts like this are the worst, Saying "There is no fun to be had" is just dumb, The system that is Crafting has not changed at all, we use 90% of the same skills we used in 2.XX, The only thing that has changed is profitability, If you think crafting currently is not fun. Guess what YOU NEVER ENJOYED CRAFTING, You Sir enjoyed making money.

Crafting and Making money are not the same thing. So don't confuse the two things when you try to explain your problems.

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Likewise to you. Darth may be overdramatic but he's not wrong either. You want to know why I think crafting isn't fun? Because this:

http://i.imgur.com/lIboBwx.png

Look at all that supply! I could craft all of ... 0 items with this! And I don't forsee this getting any better next week, or even two weeks from now. Who cares about profit when we can barely even craft to begin with?

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Some like the challange of crafting new harder crafts for people, if hardly anyone can get the mats due to cost, then it is no fun.

Apart from the new 2* crafts, the other stuff is pretty much all macro-able and no challange at all.

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That is no different from before though in terms of macros and challenge, Yes material availability is slower and less available then before that just mean things will take time.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Likewise to you. Darth may be overdramatic but he's not wrong either. You want to know why I think crafting isn't fun? Because this:

http://i.imgur.com/lIboBwx.png

Look at all that supply! I could craft all of ... 0 items with this! And I don't forsee this getting any better next week, or even two weeks from now. Who cares about profit when we can barely even craft to begin with?

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While it is sad that you can't access all the items instantly off the market board at this time since they are newly available items, the main reason there is hardly any items on the market board is because those who can gather them are using them for their own crafting, which I don't think there is a problem with that, in time there will be more materials when people no longer need to make their own items and will sell their excess this is the case in most crafting, Gather for yourself before you gather for others.
In time you will get access to being able to make the items and I believe you will enjoy and feel a sense accomplishment for doing so, please don't get discouraged and continue to look forward to that day.

Except, the entire point of this system, supposedly, was to foster interdependence among crafters.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

That is no different from before though in terms of macros and challenge, Yes material availability is slower and less available then before that just mean things will take time.



While it is sad that you can't access all the items instantly off the market board at this time since they are newly available items, the main reason there is hardly any items on the market board is because those who can gather them are using them for their own crafting, which I don't think there is a problem with that, in time there will be more materials when people no longer need to make their own items and will sell their excess this is the case in most crafting, Gather for yourself before you gather for others.
In time you will get access to being able to make the items and I believe you will enjoy and feel a sense accomplishment for doing so, please don't get discouraged and continue to look forward to that day.

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You may like the idea of waiting (literally just waiting most of the time) several months to gear a couple of craft classes, then longer still to make i180 crafted gear (by this point everyone will be in full i200+ and i180 would be trash by comparison), but many of us hate this new system.

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Originally Posted by XLauncher

Except, the entire point of this system, supposedly, was to foster interdependence among crafters.

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I think it will take more than a few days to see if the system fails in this regard or not, I know a lot of crafters and gatherers who are willing to sell materials and completed items at a point, but are currently holding onto tokens until more information is found out about the system to optimize the spending of their tokens.

The system might very well fail, I am not trying to defend the state of the game I just want to see people properly articulate the reasons why they don't like things currently.
Focus more on reasons than gut reactions.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

You may like the idea of waiting (literally just waiting most of the time) several months to gear a couple of craft classes, then longer still to make i180 crafted gear (by this point everyone will be in full i200+ and i180 would be trash by comparison), but many of us hate this new system.

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Isn't the idea of it being an endgame is that is something to work towards?, I don't see raiders having the mentality that there is no point getting Savage Alexander gear because they wont be part of the first percentile to clear it and that there will eventually be another raid making the current gear pointless.

To give the items value things need to be hard to obtain, while there is most certainly room for improvement in terms of how rewarding the system feels and how often we feel rewarded, I think it has achieved its goal of being an "end game" activity for hardcore crafters.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

I think it has achieved its goal of being an "end game" activity for hardcore crafters.

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Imagine, if you will, that there was no savage alexander, and no talk of any specific raid on the horizon, besides players assuring eachother that of course there would be more raids, some day. Imagine all of these players kitting themselves out in Esoteric gear over the course of many, many weeks, and having absolutely nothing to do with it.

That is exactly what is going on with crafting, right now. The end state is a bunch of guys in AF with nothing to craft with it besides more AF for other crafters and gatherers. The hideous reality is that AF is worthless, at present. It does absolutely nothing and there is no reason to get it, besides "well it might be useful some day".

It might not, actually. The 180 DoW/DoM player craftable armor may be the new and fixed model for crafted PVE gear. That's a deathblow.

But isnt that the case with everything in the game? Why do people keep raiding alexander savage after having beaten it once? To gear up, but whats the gear fir if you can already beat it with your old set. (talking bout the future, im aware that nobody has actually beaten it yet past 2)

I understand what you are saying Yeldir, but that is how vertical progression works, We achieve something so that we are ready for the next thing to be achieved even if it does not exist yet, that is the entire back bone of the contemporary MMO concept.
But the fact remains the reality is, that the Crafting Scripts system isn't the problem honestly, the current lack of recipes and them withholding recipes to slow raiders down is and just the same as you I think a lack of recipes will always be a frustrating issue and these are the issues we should be front-lining when we make our complaints and requests.

You can call me dumb, but I do expect more recipes to come in the same way that Since the expansion release Raiders have had Leveling gear > Dungeon gear > Law gear > Upgraded law gear > Alex normal gear > Esoteric Gear > Upgraded Eso/ Savage gear
We too will get more progression so far we have only had a few stages Leveling > Chimerical > AF > ???.
Just give it time, We can see by the NPC'd token gear that they want gearing up to take time, Stay strong Crafter :)

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

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Why do people keep acting like raiding and crafting tokens are even remotely in the same universe?

You want a piece of gear from Alexander normal. You can run it for as many times as you like until you win The 4 tokens you want.

Crafting you get one or two attempts every week to make something that\\'s barely better than the current gear.

To raid, you need a single character at 60 with the correct ilvl, obtained through only a time investment (as law is not capped).

To make red scripts, you need to have multiple 60 crafters and gatherers, all locked behind multiple gates to progress (master book, folklore, gear, and access through script bought materials).

raiding gear has unique looks.

Crafting gear is reskins

Crafting AF is not Reskin
And it has not always been the case that Crafted gear is a reskin we have previously seen a lot of unique gear, as I stated earlier on I think this is a flaw with a lack of Recipes more than a Script issue.
And you have unlimited attempts at everything as long as their is a supply and there eventually will be, That is not to say I think it is fair for people to be able to just buy everything they need and have it all, But Raiders can't buy additional times at getting loot each week because there will never be a supply, We actually have it better in that regards.

I will agree that the game is centered around having all crafts at 60 and it is something they should continue to look into.

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

To raid, you need a single character at 60 with the correct ilvl, obtained through only a time investment (as law is not capped).

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Getting the correct Ilvl is also part of their grind, which is Similar to getting our grind with tokens, while you are right Law is not capped, Esoterics Is ( blue Scripts would be Like Law and Red scripts like Esoterics)

I know the two systems are not Equivalent I was not trying to imply they function the same way, I was giving an example of the developers mind set when planning out progress for players and suggesting that we can see trends that they will possibly use similar time based gating on the way they have released content for us.

Heres the problem for me. (Omnicrafter since before 1.23 - 3.X)

Crafting for me has always been a side activity to kill some time. For me it was always about being self sufficient and maybe make some money on the side. As well as being able to make things for people that they'd like to have. The system in the 2.X series of updates were fine for both casual and hardcore crafters alike. The casual crafters could work on their masterbooks at their pace and the hardcore crafters could work at their pace at the cost of some gil. They both got to their respective goals within a time-frame that suited them. That is where the problem comes into play for the 3.X updates.

As of 3.X all crafted and gatherer gear is locked behind a weekly cap. I wont get into the fact that the crafted gear is completely locked behind a gatherer class, which I assume most have realized this as a major flaw. Now to attempt a synth of each piece of gear for a respective crafter you need to max out red scrips for both gatherer and crafter for 2-3 weeks. Then attempt the synths, which are not easy, only to craft an item that you then have to sink gil into. The stats at the end are barely above that of the sets a casual can get in a slightly longer time-frame. Then you can use that new gear you just spent weeks grinding to make useless products for the populace that will end up sitting on the market board for weeks on end, or continue to work on another 2-3 week grind for your next set.

I hope they change this system. I've been in love with crafting in this game for years and I am seriously thinking about throwing in the towel. If history is any indication, I'll just wait out the storm and by the time new sets roll around in 4-6 months I can get all this gear in a week and not lift a finger.

I wish they would take the favor system out of red scrips and give gatherers something to use blue scrips on in the long run. Then take the crafting mats out of red scrips and put them back into dungeons or GC like they've been doing in the past. Thus letting the hardcore players grind out the sets they want, even if there is nothing to craft (its all about being a completionist), while also letting the more casual audience get their sets as well with only a longer grind instead of spending gil.

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Originally Posted by Vicktem

I wish they would take the favor system out of red scrips and give gatherers something to use blue scrips on in the long run. Then take the crafting mats out of red scrips and put them back into dungeons or GC like they've been doing in the past. Thus letting the hardcore players grind out the sets they want, even if there is nothing to craft (its all about being a completionist), while also letting the more casual audience get their sets as well with only a longer grind instead of spending gil.

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What items would you want to be from blue scripts for gatherers?, if we are getting drops from dungeons and not gatherers what do gatherers do? how do they make money and who are they gathering for?

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

What items would you want to be from blue scripts for gatherers?, if we are getting drops from dungeons and not gatherer's what do they do? how do they make money and who are they gathering for?

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I was throwing around an idea where the favor items could be used for new exclusive raid food/potions/elixir materials. Allows gatherers to make some gil off the raiders and crafters, since the raid gear is of no use. Also allows the gatherer mains to save red scrips for their sets.

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Originally Posted by Vicktem

I was throwing around an idea where the favor items could be used for new exclusive raid food/potions/elixir materials. Allows gatherers to make a some gil off the raiders and crafters, since the gear is of no use. Also allows the gatherer mains to save red scrips for their sets.

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I think this is an interesting idea and its nice to see some positive thought towards changes and not just a blanket statement of things feeling bad.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

What items would you want to be from blue scripts for gatherers?, if we are getting drops from dungeons and not gatherers what do gatherers do? how do the make money and who are they gathering for?

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How about none at all? It was never a problem to make enough money out of Gatherers and, especially now with airships, the demand for old 50 materials skyrocketed and you can make a whooping 32k per hour just by making Darksteel Nuggets on my server. If you make ingots out of those you made 120k - and thats for all NQ, aka 12 crafts.

And if you dont have a BSM/ARM 50 you still can make 28k just from the ores. For less then 1min "work"

And if you got a min/bot retainer you make even more money per hour. The red scrip system doubled/tripled some material costs in less then an hour after release and it has not settled down on many. The demand is just too high (go figure) - you dont need items from blue/red scrip to be able to make money, use your brain

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

And if you got a min/bot retainer you make even more money per hour. The red scrip system doubled/tripled some material costs in less then an hour after release and it has not settled down on many. The demand is just too high (go figure) - you dont need items from blue/red scrip to be able to make money, use your brain

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I don't need to "use my brain" to know that the kind of money we are talking about for gatherers never compares to the kind of money Crafters make, there has never been a gather-able item that sells for millions of gil for a singular item, bar fishing, Yes if you grind items and sell them it eventually all adds up but regardless if you read the conversation I never said there needs to be an item in blue scripts, that was someone else's suggestion and I simply asked what kind of items they think are at the level of being a blue script item.

People see crafter sell a bustier for millions and automatically think that said crafter is earning everything, while the raw mats eat up most of the profit.

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Originally Posted by Chrolo

People see crafter sell a bustier for millions and automatically think that said crafter is earning everything, while the raw mats eat up most of the profit.

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It is completely possible to make a thavnarian bustier with out having to spend a single gil on materials if you are an Omni crafter that at least has a gather to 56 to gather maps.

Even if a crafter is lazy and Buys some of the materials, For example spends 9 mil on materials and sells one for 10 million, 1 million gil profit vs the above example of Magistrella where Darksteel ore is 28k per node would take you 35.71 hours of gated farming of timed nodes to reach the same amount of profit a crafter can take 2 minutes to go to the market board and sit down and craft is my point, While I don't think crafters have it Easy by any means being an Omni crafter myself We shouldn't let our desire to have fun crafting take away from opportunities of gatherers, we can't just tell them be happy farming old 2.x nodes just because it makes good money, I am sure they want new content to sink their teeth into (although the current favor system is a poor implementation of such)

I think we have derailed the topic of this tread off crafting and onto gathering a little and I apologize.

I get what you're saying about the ilvl comparison but at least from a tanks POV, the crafted gear in 2.xx from i90 to i110 didn't have as wide of an armor difference as the new gears from i180-i190 etc. Unless the stat formula is that drastically different, I can't see a reason to wear i180 fully melded vs i190.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

What items would you want to be from blue scripts for gatherers?, if we are getting drops from dungeons and not gatherers what do gatherers do? how do they make money and who are they gathering for?

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If the mats for the new items (e.g. ooids etc) were dg drops, gatherers would be fine as athersands and folklore node items would be highly in demand.

As things are, because ooids etc are so gated/a pain to get, the other gathering mats are worth way less, because hardly anyone is crafting end-game items.

Also dg drops would give battle classes a good source of gil, it would pretty much be a win all round.

As things are currently, end game crafting/gathering is pretty stagnant.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

If the mats for the new items (e.g. ooids etc) were dg drops, gatherers would be fine as athersands and folklore node items would be highly in demand.

As things are, because ooids etc are so gated/a pain to get, the other gathering mats are worth way less, because hardly anyone is crafting end-game items.

Also dg drops would give battle classes a good source of gil, it would pretty much be a win all round.

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Yeah I think that's a pretty reasonable assessment of things, I think the biggest factor making Ooids a pain at the moment is less the gated nature of them being tied to the scripts but more that each Favor doesnt have a minimum value, there have been some people walking away with less than 5 ooid level items, which is really sad. I think with a boost to quantity from favors the current system could work but if they are unwilling to do that then putting items in dungeons is most certainly a preferable choice.

You dont have to be a crafter to get the maps and just sell the silk for millions.
And yes you can invest money to make more money, but thats business. Gatherer habe basically no expenses and make money for themself out of thin air.

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Originally Posted by Chrolo

You dont have to be a crafter to get the maps and just sell the silk for millions.
And yes you can invest money to make more money, but thats business. Gatherer habe basically no expenses and make money for themself out of thin air.

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Time investment is not thin air, Time is most certainly an expense gatherers have to put forth to earn money and if you read on the forum in the gather section and in the crafting section one of the biggest complaints people have currently is that the state of both gathering and crafting takes too much of a time investment for very little reward when doing things like capping scripts or farming favors.

It also takes time to play the market, gather the mats, sell while ppl keep undercutting you. You may say that Bustier is great money, but it hardly sells, everything else is at best 200-300k profit on Moogle

What i want to say is that the grass aint always greener on the other side

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Originally Posted by Chrolo

It also takes time to play the market, gather the mats, sell while ppl keep undercutting you. You may say that Bustier is great money, but it hardly sells, everything else is at best 200-300k profit on Moogle

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Are gatherers not also subject to having to play the market?, do they not get under cut when they post materials to sell?, I'm not trying to claim that Bustier is "great money", I'm just comparing time investment vs profitability using the item you brought up as the example to work with in discussion.

I do appreciate that you are trying to make sure both sides are represented fairly though, It is very easy to have the perspective that one side has it easier and I don't mean to diminish the effort that crafters put in by any means.

Gatherers do deserver to get their share, I totally agree.

Thing is for gatherers to make their gil, crafters need to be crafting and able to make gil too, or they just don't bother.

A lot of people seem to dislike those who made good gil from crafting, but people forget that these players are also heavily feeding the other areas of the in game ecomomy. E.g. gatherers, battle classes who farm, spiritbonders etc etc.

My only issue with the new system is the favors. I have no problem they made two ways to gear up crafters. One easy but slow and one hard and risky but faster. That appeals to me. I like doing things the hard way and was somewhat excited to be in the smaller group doing it the hard way. Until I started doing favors... 11 hours a week of straight gathering... Mind numbing. I was able to do it this week because I'm on vacation but I have no idea how I'll manage when I go back to work next week. I think that was a terrible added way to gate crafter progression. I'm fine with them gating it but they should have come up with something more creative than favors. Just my opinion after doing 40 of them.

The lack of quality gear we can make is disappointing but I mostly just enjoy crafting for what it is.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Gatherers do deserver to get their share, I totally agree.

Thing is for gatherers to make their gil, crafters need to be crafting and able to make gil too, or they just don't bother.

A lot of people seem to dislike those who made good gil from crafting, but people forget that these players are also heavily feeding the other areas of the in game ecomomy. E.g. gatherers, battle classes who farm, spiritbonders etc etc.

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We just need to keep demanding more recipes that matter and I think with time SE will get the point, they dropped the ball this time but I think we will stabilize in a few months at the most when we get another batch of recipes.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

We just need to keep demanding more recipes that matter and I think with time SE will get the point, they dropped the ball this time but I think we will stabilize in a few months at the most when we get another batch of recipes.

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If you have insider information we would appreciate it if you shared it with us OP. Otherwise I dont see the point in your thread.

Why would anyone defibrilate a horse that isnt dead? The sole purpose of this thread is to draw attention away from the threads that are (rightfully) pointing out how much crafting and gathering got shafted this patch.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

Are gatherers not also subject to having to play the market?, do they not get under cut when they post materials to sell?, I'm not trying to claim that Bustier is "great money", I'm just comparing time investment vs profitability using the item you brought up as the example to work with in discussion.

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It is true that gatherers need alot more time to gatherer a million, thats why i am mainly crafting. But its riskfree, since even if prices drop you still earn, while sometimes a price drop may cut your profit as crafter if you couldnt sell the item for a few days and resource prices dropped in the meantime. Also for non glamour item, a streak of bad hasty touches with a failed reclaim can cost you all the mats.

These are just really extreme cases though and in general you do earn some good money as crafter

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

If you have insider information we would appreciate it if you shared it with us OP. Otherwise I dont see the point in your thread.

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I am not the Poster of this thread, I don't have any inside information and specifically used language that just expressed that the things I have said are my opinion, ie "I think".
I most certainly think that people have the right to feel as though this patch is not as good as other patches in the past and in the most part I agree with those problems, But we need to discuss those things properly and articulate the reasons behind our feelings, I have also been weighing in on peoples solutions and trying to understand how they came to their conclusions, which I have been in support of in some cases. As well as trying to make sure that the aspects of gathering are included in the talks and not just solely focusing on the profitability of crafting.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

We just need to keep demanding more recipes that matter and I think with time SE will get the point, they dropped the ball this time but I think we will stabilize in a few months at the most when we get another batch of recipes.

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The recipes in game atm I believe are great, new battle gear that would be a temp upgrade when melded and new AF crafter sets.

My only problem is how limited (weekly lockout) the mats for these are, making them totally cost prohibative for a long time.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

The recipes in game atm I believe are great, new battle gear that would be a temp upgrade when melded and new AF crafter sets.

My only problem is how limited (weekly lockout) the mats for these are, making them totally cost prohibative for a long time.

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I am curious, In your opinion do you think taking the weekly lockout away and making it more like blue scripts on no cap but just slow to get the points would be better?

Hey there.

I'm the original poster. Not Alysera. I can tell you right now I would not have the damn patience to do the main story on this game -twice- let alone on a new server. I ran into a post cap and just sat back reading the discussion. Well, most of the discussion. Alysrea has been taking a far more cooperative stance than I set with the tone of this thread. Calm your babyfeeders, Aeyis.

Why did I deliberate the dead horse? I was bored, mainly.

I don't mind the new system. I certainly understand why it would be frustrating for the person who only crafts and/or gathers, but every crafting system has been subpar since SWG Classic for me, so really it's just more of the same.

It doesn't help that the economy in this game was designed to be optional.