Defilberating the Dead Horse

[Kabooa]

I want to preface this by stating that I was not a 3+star crafter at 50. I had quit the game at one point shortly after 2.2 and when I came back during 2.4, i saw no reason to get into the crafting game. (I made plenty bashing kneecaps in the X-Ether market for my tastes!)

So here's the issue: There's no crafting end-game apparently. Crafters will only sell to crafters but crafters will be crafting their own stuff so eventually it implodes and then there's no goal. That's what I'm seeing. Let's dissect that. Let's go through what each class currently provides to non-crafter/gathers

Culinarian: Food.
Alchemist: Potions
Everyone else: 180 Left Side.

Well, Cul and Alchemist are apparently still doing their old thing. Alchemist 2star is basically a stepping stone to other two star battlecrafts, so their big bucks depend on other big bucks.

Here's the issue I find with all of the doomsday arguments, that for some reason having i180 being the crafting cap for battle gear is somehow worse than it was before. That once you get your crafting gear, there is no one left to sell to.

You guys do realize that crafting has always been 20 ilevels behind 'poetic' gear, right? The main difference here is that we don't have accessories, but unless -all of you made money by selling accessories- back then, which I doubt just judging by Gilgamesh's old market, losing i180 accesories isn't the end of all time.

When i90 was the cap? i70 was the craft. i110? i90.

i130? You guessed it; i110. You are always losing primary stats in crafting selection for the goal of more substats that make up for it. For Tanking classes this might be a little unacceptable because 'moar defense', but everyone else? You still got a market, especially on belt, boots, pants, and helmet where you're sacrificing less main stats for the same number of materia slots. People are not going to be in full 200 for a while. They won't be in 210 for even longer.

Believe it or not, savage mode 1/2 being cleared the first day -is not the norm, it is the very extreme exception-

And if grade 5 materia is gotten from spiritbinding, could you guess the ilevel of convertable items that will have the highest chance of giving them?

Seriously.

I get it. It does kind of suck, especially if you're a "I MUST BE ALL THE THINGS" kind of person. The system is weighted against you.

But can we stop with the "IT WAS SO MUCH BETTER AT 2.xx!"? It's illogical. People are -already- crafting high quality two star, and it's the first damn week. You are -still an omnicrafter- at this point in time. If you can hq two star one thing now, you can hq two star -all the things- because you share the same set of gear.

I mean, all complaints in basically every area has been responded to with a 'git gud' message. This is literally a pity circlejerk. There are some very valid issues (For instance, there's a culinarian who is only a culinarian, but requires -very expensive fish- to get his redscripts. -That- sucks.) but the rest? Honestly. I thought savage raiders were bad.
-------------------------
TL/DR;

- negative 20 IL has always been the crafter benchmark for combat gear
-No battle accessories does kind of suck, but i150 can work (Xeno senpai so stronk)
-Grade 5 materia has to come from -somewhere- other than stupid face mutamix.
-You're still an omnicrafter.
-Come on, get happy.

[PotatoWafflez]

If I recall correctly the issues are:
- Script gear is pointless at the moment it, has no use to anyone who mainly crafts because they can already HQ 2 Stars - So the rich get richer selling to those who can't
- Scripts are a pain to earn if you don't have mats stock piled a head of time and only get a few hours to play a day and they change so you can't stock pile on Monday and craft on Tuesday with reliability.
- Crafting in general punishes you for not being a omnicrafter except Cul but they have to rely on gathering pretty much 100%
- Specialists don't really bring anything to the table so the separate gear is just a nuisance to most

But as a casual crafter who tries to keep up its just not fun or rewarding and the balance of time investment vs DoW/M per week just makes it seem all the more worse.

Really my main issue now is just how much time I need to sink in each week just to hit the caps but that's just me.

The other issues don't really affect me its mainly the barrier to entry that bugs me and that is pretty much mainly due to how they said this system was meant to make everything more accessible to people who don't 100% focus crafting.

[Kabooa]

Gathering scripts are certainly a pain. I found crafting pretty easy but like you said, I had a stock of materials to work with, and my chosen crafts usually pull from the same materials no matter what. (Goldsmith? Better hope I have aurum regis nuggets owaitIhavetoomany)

Script gear is not pointless; It provides a low cost, medium time investment to get gear that is bar none far more cost efficient than full melded patrician2.0. That's like, the definition of casual friendly; People who only really work on one or two crafts, and make a little gil here and there when they find a unique niche they can grab on the market before it's found out and overrun.

The omnicrafter issue hasn't really changed at all; They made an attempt with the Specialist actions but gating them behind lower-chanced 'good' procs was not the best way to go about it. (If they changed anything, my money would be on CP Costs for specialist actions)

[MiniPrinny]

Honestly, as someone who has enjoyed crafting but got on the boat all too late in A Realm Reborn. The problem I have isn't what is available. I mean, I'd like to have say Draconian Potions and Draconian Ethers, but that's splitting hairs. The problem I have is purely in the acquisition of the materials required to make my gear. I would be fine if you could only get HQ materials through using favors and red scrips. I would be fine if you had to use red scrips to craft the i170 crafting sets. But requiring red scrips from both Disciples of the Land and Disciples of the Hand to have a chance at succeeding in crafting i170 crafting gear is just sickening. This is further complicated by the fact that the i170 gear starts out weaker than a fully melded set of i150 gear, and they're class specific. At this point in time, I'm seeing the i170 gear as more trouble than it is worth because the reward doesn't justify the means. I would rather save up my red scrip tokens and sit on them until 3.2 than actually craft anything with them. And spending 4-5 months of my time sitting on my currencies isn't my idea of "good game design."

[scarebearz]

Tbh it sounds like you don't really know what your talking about, so many inaccuracies with the opening post.

Your also totally missing the point.

[Kabooa]

Tbh it sounds like you don't really know what your talking about, so many inaccuracies with the opening post.

Your also totally missing the point.

If the burden of ignorance is still making gil, being more or less content with the system, and saving money on markers and cardboard for doomsday signs, I'd say one of us is winning.

There's also nothing -objectively- wrong with what I said.
-Battle gear was always capped at i20 below current weekly tome gear.
-You're still a 2-star omnicrafter now and no red scrip gear will change that. It just means all your scrips can be used on materials. More money for you to make rich-person AF gear.
-If you're not? A low barrier of entry (but high timesink admittedly) for gathering lets you sell materials to get 2-star omnicraftable gear.
-If grade 5 materia spiritbinds from anything, it is well known that ilvl (or perhaps 'star' level) gives a better chance for higher grade materia.

[scarebearz]

There's also nothing -objectively- wrong with what I said.

Well lets see:

You guys do realize that crafting has always been 20 ilevels behind 'poetic' gear, right?

It is now 30ilvl behind, before it was 20ilvl.

2.0: i70 craft - i90 tome gear. (20ilvl difference)
2.2: i90 craft - i100 tome gear, upgradedable to i110. (20ilvl difference)
2.4: i110 craft - i120 tome gear, upgradedable to i130. (20ilvl difference)
3.05: i180 craft - i200 tome gear, upgradeable to i210. (30ilvl difference)

The main difference here is that we don't have accessories, but unless -all of you made money by selling accessories- back then, which I doubt just judging by Gilgamesh's old market, losing i180 accesories isn't the end of all time.

Accessories were only released at the same time as armour in 2.0, from 2.2 onwards we only got left side and accessories added at a later date. (just like now)

I get it. It does kind of suck, especially if you're a "I MUST BE ALL THE THINGS" kind of person. The system is weighted against you.

Actually with current skills and gears, you can still in theory (I.e. if you could get the mats) be an "omnicrafter", as the specailist skills are not required.

But can we stop with the "IT WAS SO MUCH BETTER AT 2.xx!"? It's illogical. People are -already- crafting high quality two star, and it's the first damn week. You are -still an omnicrafter- at this point in time. If you can hq two star one thing now, you can hq two star -all the things- because you share the same set of gear.

2.x was far better.

Mats were farmable (meaning DoH/DoM/DoW classes could make some gil) with no lockout, they did take a while to get, but those who wanted to make gil farming them could do so.

Craft gears in 2.4 were locked behind sealants, but these could be gotten by lower lvl players, so far more freely avaliable, even though they were expencive at the time.

Current mats require players to have a lvl 58+ main class, lvl 60 geared crafter, lvl 60 geared gatherer. I.e. very few people able to even make use of their weekly cap.

A few people have made 1 or 2 items this week, they are now stuck untill next week to craft 1 or 2 more items. (e.g. a robe would require 300/450 scrips to have just 1 attempt to craft it HQ)

The mats are also shared between DoM/DoW gears and DoH/DoL gears, so players who want to gear up their crafters/gatherers, cannot make any DoW/DoM gear and vice versa.


The problem is not the ilvl of crafted gear, it's fine.

It's not grade 5 materia being hard to get, but would be nice if it was easier.

It's not because people want to remain "omni-crafters", as for 2* at least we pretty much can be.

The problem is the weekly cap on mats/scrips that have shared useage between battle classes, crafters and gatherers.

[Kabooa]

The problem is the weekly cap on mats/scrips that have shared useage between battle classes, crafters and gatherers.

This is what I want to focus on because this was actually a very subtle point. It wasn't the gist of what I was seeing in the doomsday threads.

I don't see this as a problem. It's different, sure, but really, not seeing an issue. Inter dependency / demand is not a bad thing. I can understand why it's frustrating as it's a complete paradigm shift from before where everyone was effectively self sufficient, but creating a demand for something limited means no matter what, you got something of value. How is that a problem? It's a perfect economic move for this style of MMO. Warcraft did the same. (And yes; This game is Final Fantasy Warcraft.) It provides everyone with a leg into the market on something that's value is artificially inflated simply because the game states you can't have more.

This is a casual friendly thing.

Back on the previous points
210 is still alexander savage. 200 may be upgraded, but it's still alexander savage loot. A large amount of the player base will not be running around in full 210 anytime soon.
Later accessory additions means hey, crafting will be even more relevant. +points
I said you can be an omnicrafter. Whether that remains true for 3 stars (Which most of the doomsday threads were pointing towards) remains to be seen.
Choosing between mats and gear is a matter of power vs cost* efficiency. You want the best? Pay up. You want something to get by cheap? Save up. It's the option between 'BiS' and 'Good enough'. (Again, casual friendly thing)

[scarebearz]

This is what I want to focus on because this was actually a very subtle point. It wasn't the gist of what I was seeing in the doomsday threads.

I don't see this as a problem. It's different, sure, but really, not seeing an issue. Inter dependency / demand is not a bad thing. I can understand why it's frustrating as it's a complete paradigm shift from before where everyone was effectively self sufficient, but creating a demand for something limited means no matter what, you got something of value. How is that a problem? It's a perfect economic move for this style of MMO. Warcraft did the same. (And yes; This game is Final Fantasy Warcraft.) It provides everyone with a leg into the market on something that's value is artificially inflated simply because the game states you can't have more.

Crafters need the gatherers red scrips mats, but they need them at a somewhat "sensible" price, else the crafts are just not worth it.

These mats are too hard to get for gatherers to want to sell at that, when they could just save their red scrips and eventually months later gear out their gatherer just using the red scrips (less effort).

Without the gatherer red scrip mats, crafters red scrips are totally useless.

This is a casual friendly thing.

Mats that require a well geared gatherer and crafter to get and many many hours per week on the gathering side, is not a casual friendly thing.

How many casuals have a 3.0 top geared crafter/gatherer, lvl 58 battle class and enough time to farm all the Favour mats, crafter hand in mats, gatherer red scripts items?

Back on the previous points
210 is still alexander savage. 200 may be upgraded, but it's still alexander savage loot. A large amount of the player base will not be running around in full 210 anytime soon.
Later accessory additions means hey, crafting will be even more relevant. +points
I said you can be an omnicrafter. Whether that remains true for 3 stars (Which most of the doomsday threads were pointing towards) remains to be seen.
Choosing between mats and gear is a matter of power vs cost* efficiency. You want the best? Pay up. You want something to get by cheap? Save up. It's the option between 'BiS' and 'Good enough'. (Again, casual friendly thing)

Your previous point are still wrong, the fact you can't admit this when clearly shows tells us a lot...

The previous tome gear was also upgraded from coil drops (i.e. Alex savage is the new coil), so it's still a 30ilvl difference vs 20ilvl difference from before, suspect the tome upgrade items will soon be added to hunt seals like before too. The difference between raid drops and crafted is also 30ilvl now and 20ilvl previously.

Later accessories will also be moot if they are cost prohibitive to make, as looks like people will need all their scrips for craft/gathing gears for a long time to come.

Choosing between mats and gear is a matter of power vs cost* efficiency. You want the best? Pay up. You want something to get by cheap? Save up. It's the option between 'BiS' and 'Good enough'. (Again, casual friendly thing)

The problem is it's not worth it as the prices items would need to be, I don't mind paying a lot of something, but it has to be somewhat *Worth* it. The i180 battle gear is a slight temporary upgrade and each part is going to be 10's of millions per part.

Even rich players are not that stupid, but who knows maybe RMT players are...

[Aeyis]

Tbh it sounds like you don't really know what your talking about, so many inaccuracies with the opening post.

Your also totally missing the point.

Yeah I dont know about you, but personally im getting real tired seeing these kinds of posts pop up.
Maybe I should write a fool proof (is there truly such a thing?) explaination and just copy paste that every time...

Starting with the disclaimer: ''This is the 101 guide to red scrips and 2* crafting for those that did not do the research''