Enjoy Summoner before it gets nerfed...

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Originally Posted by Fyce

That's silly.
SMN have to use all their cooldowns

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And..... cd's are there to use them they are not resource to hoard, BRD's are gimped by design. We are basicaly lvl 50 skillsets in lvl 60 skillset match. WM in PVP is so unusable unless enemy is so stupid that he is sitting duck afk'ing. 30% increase is not even jokingly comparable to BLM to even think that i should stand still 1.5 seconds to prepare skill, by the time I do the WM barrage combo plus Empyral arrow plus sidewinder, enemy is out of my range or he is killed by another or im killed - tried a few times and not even touching it again. Give me possibilty to 1 shot every minute on BRD and ill gladly trade all the 51+ skills that we were given. Good riddance

smn is definitely op but most people don't play it to its potential anyway. before the new mode started i personally thought it would be exclusively dominated by smns and everyone switching to it, but that hasn't been the case. other jobs definitely could use more buffs, but simply being on the job and breathing the air isn't a game-changer on smn. you still need to play at a really high level to make that kind of impact, as with any other job.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

All jobs should be balanced around 4v4 wolves den. If you start balancing 1v1 everybody, it will be endless circle and somebody will be always op and somebody underpowered. 4v4 will have rated rankings in 3.1 so it is only place where balance actually matters. If healers can easily keep everybody up, fight will last 4ever and it is not fun either.

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Healers are God tier so if the developers want healers in line they would make adjustments accordingly imo. Giving summoner the best tools to take out a healer makes little sense when you may not have a summoner.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

And..... cd's are there to use them they are not resource to hoard, BRD's are gimped by design. We are basicaly lvl 50 skillsets in lvl 60 skillset match. WM in PVP is so unusable unless enemy is so stupid that he is sitting duck afk'ing. 30% increase is not even jokingly comparable to BLM to even think that i should stand still 1.5 seconds to prepare skill, by the time I do the WM barrage combo plus Empyral arrow plus sidewinder, enemy is out of my range or he is killed by another or im killed - tried a few times and not even touching it again. Give me possibilty to 1 shot every minute on BRD and ill gladly trade all the 51+ skills that we were given. Good riddance

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In shot terms: "My job is so bad that I want to kill everyone in 3 skills!"

You've a strange way to look at how balance works.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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Also, if anything, MNK are a great counter against SMN (probably the best counter tbh).

Shoulder Tackle his face right after you get hit by Tri-disaster, use the stun time to cleanse all your debuffs if available, stun him again with Steel Peak, and then One Ilm Punch him (may need a few uses) to make him completly useless (loss of Aetherflow or Bahamut stacks = dead SMN), then proceed to finish him. Weapon Throw if he tries to sprint away. Use Somersault or Perfect Balance for instant One Ilm Punch fun.

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I'm a SMN myself, and I can easily say that MNKs are one of my primary target just for that reason. I usually have to kill them ASAP or else I'm dead.

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Read the post I quoted from (myself), and you know what you said is true. As MNK I find SMN and BLM easiest to kill.

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Originally Posted by kisada

smn is definitely op but most people don't play it to its potential anyway. before the new mode started i personally thought it would be exclusively dominated by smns and everyone switching to it, but that hasn't been the case. other jobs definitely could use more buffs, but simply being on the job and breathing the air isn't a game-changer on smn. you still need to play at a really high level to make that kind of impact, as with any other job.

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A-any other job? -_- You and your 500k+(not 300,..500) dmg smn (YES KISADA I SAW IT IN RANKINGS ....but didn't ss it!) In this case..YOU, not the job, needs to be gimped -_-

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Originally Posted by Geologo

SMN has the highest possibility to do burst damage ina a very low frame time, but after they popped all, they have just to wait 1-2 min to get another kill

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That's the trade off we get, I SCH and SMN in PvP I can destroy most people in there with my combo, but after that I'm on the opposite side of the coin. It's powerful but you can counter it. DRG are the thorn in my side as a SMN..the jumps, the stuns. Of course there are counter measures for that too, but that's how PvP is

Summoner is powerful, but you can do other things to screw up our rotation. Just got to think about it....and when you do, we aren't a major problem.

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Originally Posted by Guesswhat

As MNK I find SMN and BLM easiest to kill.

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I forgot about you guys..Oh damn you MNKs. No that shoulder tackle..I see nothing around me and then all of a sudden Shoulder tackle and flying fists of fury. I swear you MNKs save that limit break for me, I see Stun (I got materia on lol) then it's just so fluid they do their LB and I'm gone. Sometimes, sometimes I can get Garuda to push them back but otherwise..man..evil.

Or the WAR who sets up the SMN even if it's another smn for me to attack..they are not going anywhere.

Then there's purify like someone said. There is no just one answer..you can get around it. just need to know what you're doing. Most can't figure out how to handle these situations, they're waiting for "Hey Guys Mr. Tell-you-wtf-to-do-so-you-don't-have-to-think here..." and those are the ones who die.

SMN is fine I don't see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

In shot terms: "My job is so bad that I want to kill everyone in 3 skills!"

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Not everyone but I want my full range of given skills to be viable in pvp. Problem with this and every other mmorpg of this type is that its impossible to tweak pvp in game where no single mechanics logic is universaly apliable. Even though I understand it pefectly im still raging over to let steam out. They will never ever balance pvp in this game, its simply mathematicaly impossible, they hope that ppl devised tactics will overcome the shortcomics of impossible tweek. And actualy I dont realy care. I come from Quake3 arena and counter-strike 1.6 generation, so i always have this empty feeling in games where your individual skill has near zero effect.

Going superman on a player is so much fun. I love it. I usually Tri-disaster and pop fester, painflare and energy drain quickly afterwards and deathflare when someone is really annoying and watch them run if still alive lmao. No more getting surprised by a melee and being defenseless! Though smn even before the upgrade had better defenses against melee than say blm specifically because of less stationary tools + the pet which you could easily put on rouse + spur and enkindle a melee while running and ruining/bio'ing/miasmi'ing/energy draining virus for good measure as Garuda still hits the target. It's always been easier for SMN to overwhelm a target without even having all dots up if everything is timed right.

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

A-any other job? -_- You and your 500k+(not 300,..500) dmg smn (YES KISADA I SAW IT IN RANKINGS ....but didn't ss it!) In this case..YOU, not the job, needs to be gimped -_-

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hah thanks i am humbled. i have been very fortunate to play with some great teammates which make it a lot easier to hit some fun numbers. but if i remember correctly my team still lost the match, so that's even more humbling.

I love getting KO messages like 10-15 seconds after I decided to just disengage and let someone run away vs chase them into enemy territory. They can out run me, but they can't outrun the DOT's I landed with RS up and contagioned. Still, I feel like SMN is balanced and the people who are the most upset are the melee players who want us to stand there and take our whoopin' without running away or fighting back. Which sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't. I probably get the most revenge kills where I'm already dead and then get a KO! message on machinists btw.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

I wouldnt have problem of summoners burst if they droped equaly fast, 3 skill arrows and they are dead. There clearly is problem if they can pretty much oneshot from such a great range. They are unpenalized snipers of this game. While PVP is last saving grace of enjoyment in this game it still shows that PVP here is slapped there to just be. Rng should absolutly have no place in PVP. RNG in pvp shows that devs have zero exp what pvp realy means, their choice of rng in seize is inexcusable. Most fun for me in seize is droping a summoner, i let out chear every time i kill someone.

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I'm noticing a trend of mostly bards having a problem with other ranged classes dps. I wonder why that is...

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Originally Posted by Farrell

I'm noticing a trend of mostly bards having a problem with other ranged classes dps. I wonder why that is...

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Karma
/10char

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Originally Posted by Farrell

I'm noticing a trend of mostly bards having a problem with other ranged classes dps. I wonder why that is...

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You deserve it to be honest slaughtering us poor casters for so long.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

I love getting KO messages like 10-15 seconds after I decided to just disengage and let someone run away vs chase them into enemy territory. They can out run me, but they can't outrun the DOT's I landed with RS up and contagioned. Still, I feel like SMN is balanced and the people who are the most upset are the melee players who want us to stand there and take our whoopin' without running away or fighting back. Which sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't. I probably get the most revenge kills where I'm already dead and then get a KO! message on machinists btw.

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It's even funner when you imagine the reactions your opponents have. I remember this machinist chasing after me like he was going to do something so I turned around and unrolled everything on him. Why do they always try to hop away like that's doing anything? lol but yeah you're right. SMN has high burst in pvp but it's still balance because it's like risk vs reward basically. Deathflare has a cd and our burst is limited to having stacks. Of course if you are refreshing correctly you can constantly stack them one after another as the time it takes to travel to the next node you'll have 6 aether stacks again.

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Originally Posted by Vallhallix

SMN has high burst in pvp but it's still balance because it's like risk vs reward basically.

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The only risk inherent in SMN pvp gameplay is that your face might look funny from all the marks left by rolling it across the keyboard.

Good thing they do not balance around pvp at all.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

Summoner's fine the way it is, I actually feel like we're on equal footing with melee players when it comes to 1v1 now. I've duel'd quite a few monks who got within close range of me, where I just came out ahead.

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Story of SMNs life. People are fine when it's their class that's op or has the clear advantage over another. Melee having insane burst, the ability to basically leap to casters and bards stun locking us into oblivion wasn't fair either but we've dealt with it. Atleast now smns can actually defend themselves better 1v1 against those two classes. It's not as one sided as it used to be. It's not like smns are unkillable. In most cases, the person who strikes first will be the victor. If a tank grabs you it's pretty much nothing you can do and because you are so squishy you will also die in mere seconds just as someone else would had you popped everything on them. All they did was give us the means to do as much damage single target as others can do to us without stacking anything.

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Originally Posted by Vallhallix

Melee having insane burst

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Melee have burst. SMN have insane burst coupled with complete safety.

Melee have to time their entrance into a fight correctly. There is never any wrong time for a SMN to delete someone, and thus no thought needed to play the class.

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Originally Posted by Vallhallix

Story of SMNs life. People are fine when it's their class that's op or has the clear advantage over another. Melee having insane burst, the ability to basically leap to casters and bards stun locking us into oblivion wasn't fair either but we've dealt with it. Atleast now smns can actually defend themselves better 1v1 against those two classes. It's not as one sided as it used to be. It's not like smns are unkillable. In most cases, the person who strikes first will be the victor. If a tank grabs you it's pretty much nothing you can do and because you are so squishy you will also die in mere seconds just as someone else would had you popped everything on them. All they did was give us the means to do as much damage single target as others can do to us without stacking anything.

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Yeah and if your party has no healer and the other does, you can easily waste a tridisaster and find yourself having to hardcast the dot's which doesn't work so well vs. melees, esp those supported by a healer. Healers make such a difference, and the presence of one on the other team coupled with the lack of one on yours even more so... but they've made healing so unrewarding, no achievements like slaughterhouse, and I'm sick of chasing 3 PUGs around supporting their battle hig/fever cause I was the one to suck it up and change classes, and after they didn't die and we win they zip out without even bothering to leave with a commendation. Meanwhile they got extra kills towards their achievements. I think SMN has a different set of circumstances in which it excels than other classes but not to a degree that it's as overpowered as people think. And a lot of people just aren't used to contending with Summoners for a long time, I did Secure mode as SMN and found I had to give it up in Slaughter.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Melee have burst. SMN have insane burst coupled with complete safety.

Melee have to time their entrance into a fight correctly. There is never any wrong time for a SMN to delete someone, and thus no thought needed to play the class.

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Did you know that a single heal casted on a target receiving the SMN "you-are-dead" combo is often enough to prevent the SMN to succeed at killing someone?
Did you know that a single One Ilm Punch in the face can often make the SMN completly harmless until Aetherflow is back?

You don't seem to be aware of the amount of things that can go wrong during the SMN combo, making them completly useless after a failure (and after a success as well).

SMN in PvP are the best example of a bursty glass-cannon job which can get easily shut down, but very rewarding if allowed to succeed.

Purify as soon as Tri-disaster hits and SMN burst will fail.

Warden's Paean blocks all 3 dots from Tri-Disaster
Proof: http://www.twitch.tv/blicen/v/8826841?t=13m09s

at the time marked, Paean is applied to Kaji, Kaji gets Tri-Disaster'd but there's no dots applied and Paean is removed. The streamer's debuff bar only has blind on it after the Ruin II, which is right over their TP.

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Originally Posted by Potatoes

Warden's Paean blocks all 3 dots from Tri-Disaster
Proof: http://www.twitch.tv/blicen/v/8826841?t=13m09s

at the time marked, Paean is applied to Kaji, Kaji gets Tri-Disaster'd but there's no dots applied and Paean is removed. The streamer's debuff bar only has blind on it after the Ruin II, which is right over their TP.

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Pretty neat. I've been playing around with Paean myself in PvP, and although it can prevent sleeps and even tri-disaster apparently, I noticed that something as simple as a windbite can remove it. :/ I know the devs are still looking at this ability and wanting to make it more useful. Perhaps increasing the duration to a minute, or decreasing the long 3 second cast time would be a good start.

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Originally Posted by nickx

Pretty neat. I've been playing around with Paean myself in PvP, and although it can prevent sleeps and even tri-disaster apparently, I noticed that something as simple as a windbite can remove it. :/ I know the devs are still looking at this ability and wanting to make it more useful. Perhaps increasing the duration to a minute, or decreasing the long 3 second cast time would be a good start.

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Yeah, it's pretty darn situational and tbh I think it needs a longer duration as well so you can prep it more ahead of time. I don't think it should be spammable though so 3 seconds is ok with me personally.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Did you know that a single heal casted on a target receiving the SMN "you-are-dead" combo is often enough to prevent the SMN to succeed at killing someone?

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This is the case with literally every single burst class. The only difference is when a SMN pops their cooldowns from a distance and nestled safely with their group they're just out cooldowns. When a melee does it, they're out of cooldowns and sitting right in front of the entire enemy team.

I'm aware there are a small amount of things that can go wrong for SMN. But there aren't many, and there are vastly more for the majority of other classes.

yeah i think one thing that makes this discussion kind of funny is that at any time, if someone heals my target just once, my kill combo becomes disrupted completely.

while it is definitely correct part of the lure of SMN doing all this is they maintain safe position from distance while emptying the clip, they also don't get as many toys as the melees do. so once i drop my skills, my impact as SMN is reduced to that of a very low dps/utility player.

it's all give and take between ranged and melees. i'm not saying that SMN doesn't have more in its favor than other jobs, but there is some baseline level of balance even if it might not seem apparent.

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Originally Posted by kisada

yeah i think one thing that makes this discussion kind of funny is that at any time, if someone heals my target just once, my kill combo becomes disrupted completely.

while it is definitely correct part of the lure of SMN doing all this is they maintain safe position from distance while emptying the clip, they also don't get as many toys as the melees do. so once i drop my skills, my impact as SMN is reduced to that of a very low dps/utility player.

it's all give and take between ranged and melees. i'm not saying that SMN doesn't have more in its favor than other jobs, but there is some baseline level of balance even if it might not seem apparent.

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Yeah I agree, one thing balancing it is all the stuns melee players get. I often have to purify the first stun and then a valuable survival skill is on cooldown for a long time. A melee can use the last of their multiple stuns to mount and get ahead out of attack range if they can just admit to themselves when they're in a losing battle.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

I often have to purify the first stun and then a valuable survival skill is on cooldown for a long time.

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Melee players have the do the same thing, except instead of just being afraid of stuns we also have to purify the 3 SMN dots that can just be reapplied with bane.

Warrior and Summoner, please nerf! The melee LB is one thing but these guys have melee LB esque on cooldown.

I have more trouble with Warriors than Summoners, tbh, because Warriors can stun into their double Fell Cleave or Holmgang so I can't get away.

I don't find SMNs very threatening, just annoying. If I have even Stoneskin or Noct Shield on myself a SMN can't kill me; same with everyone on my team. What annoys me the most is idiots who get 3D'd then run back to their group in a panic so everyone gets Bane'd. -__- If I get Tri-Disaster on me I move away from people as best I can while still being in heal range.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

This is the case with literally every single burst class. The only difference is when a SMN pops their cooldowns from a distance and nestled safely with their group they're just out cooldowns. When a melee does it, they're out of cooldowns and sitting right in front of the entire enemy team.

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Have you ever PvP in Seal Rock before? I ask because that's absolutly not how it works and how everyone is placed during an encounter around a node.
People are all over the place. You are almost never alone in the "enemy lines", since there are no "enemy lines". People are chasing each other all the time and ranged players have to get closer or they'll most likely break their maximum range because people are moving constantly. Almost every battle is a giant clusterf*ck where the team who manage to focus down more people than the other wins.

If you are alone in a full enemy group, without being supported by tanks or healers, it's either your fault, your group composition sucks, or your healers don't know how to PvP.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

@ Fyce

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This is the case for every dps in the game except there is extreme risk for melee dps and other ranged dps have to focus and harass opponents but gain increased safety in return.
One ilm punch is a God send against summoners foolish enough to overextend for their kills, otherwise you are giving up your life only to remove a summoners aetherflow stacks.

I would argue that after a summoner unloads his kill combo, he just becomes another ranged dps (has to focus target and harass like the rest).

Summoner is no easier to shut down than any other ranged dps and is more difficult to shut down than a melee dps as long as no one overextends.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

I think SMN has a different set of circumstances in which it excels than other classes but not to a degree that it's as overpowered as people think.

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Agreed

Imo before this huge upgrade to our skillset we were lagging behind when it came to pvps. Sure we could do insane damage but a lot of that was from dots/aoe which either got purified on healed through. You always felt like you weren't doing much compared to brds/blms/drgs. It was possible to get a high number of KOs but most of the time you were just stealing kills from other people because your dot just happened to tick while they had an inch of health left. Now I feel as though smn is on an even level with other classes as far as disposing targets quickly. The damage is about even with a blm. As my blm I could cast 2-3 fires on a target and usually got a proc after that their health was as diminished as a smn popping everything and deathflare is basically the swiftcast flare finisher. ;)

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I have more trouble with Warriors than Summoners, tbh, because Warriors can stun into their double Fell Cleave or Holmgang so I can't get away.

I don't find SMNs very threatening, just annoying. If I have even Stoneskin or Noct Shield on myself a SMN can't kill me; same with everyone on my team. What annoys me the most is idiots who get 3D'd then run back to their group in a panic so everyone gets Bane'd. -__- If I get Tri-Disaster on me I move away from people as best I can while still being in heal range.

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Honestly even bane isn't too bad to heal through. Medica 2 is all that's really needed.

Warriors have a ton of burst, though, as do some others.

1v1 i can murder SMNs with my DRG, but they tend to be in pack. As good pvp players should. Frankly its class stacking that is plaguing pvp more than a single class. I could see a nerf on SMNs similar to:

• Reduced deathflare potency in pvp
• Cap to 1 set of dot like the cap on medica 2
• Another +5% global magic resist on the existing stack

I am very skeptical that SE will change anything to pvp from now on. I think last patch was all they had to invest in it.

SMN is the new BLM.

Right now they are the hardest hitting of all the classes. Deathflare can hit over 3k which seems like it's more damage than a Limit Break.
It definitely needs a potency nerf.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

Cap to 1 set of dot like the cap on medica 2

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Honestly this is the biggest thing that I feel should happen. The others are pretty unnecessary; SMNs just aren't that threatening with heals to back you up.

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

SMN is the new BLM.

Right now they are the hardest hitting of all the classes. Deathflare can hit over 3k which seems like it's more damage than a Limit Break.
It definitely needs a potency nerf.

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Hahahahahahaha

Between the Eyes says hi. (Fell Cleave waves in the background.)

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Honestly this is the biggest thing that I feel should happen. The others are pretty unnecessary; SMNs just aren't that threatening with heals to back you up.

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Nothing is threatening with a healer backup...

and as far as between the eyes, it's not AoE and they do the same damage with cooldowns popped... just between the eyes crits more. I'd still prefer deathflare ;O

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

[*]Cap to 1 set of dot like the cap on medica 2

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Nope—that's unnecessary punishment. Sure, if you've got a group of 5+ summoners running around coordinated, tri disaster is going to violate your butthole but in general the dots alone aren't worth nerfing. Sometimes you might have 2 bio's and 3 miasmas on you but purify and some self heals will more than likely tide you over until they wear off.